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Tags Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez , democratic party

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Old 2nd February 2020, 04:52 PM   #321
Minoosh
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
If the white supremacists were paying attention, they would note that their entire movement is riven with schisms and infighting that makes US politics look almost laughable by comparison.
Back in the Tea Party heyday it occurred to me that these movements were made up of people who fundamentally had no interest in cooperation.
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Old 2nd February 2020, 08:08 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Such a hot take.

The absolute state of this forum.
Are you speaking in riddles? Or are you a troll? Plain statements of your viewpoint would be far more effective if indeed you have some point to make. What is “hot take” and how does it pertain to this forum (of which you are a participant?)
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Old 2nd February 2020, 08:15 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by grunion View Post
What is “hot take” and how does it pertain to this forum (of which you are a participant?)
According to Wikipedia, a hot take is a "piece of deliberately provocative commentary that is based almost entirely on shallow moralizing" (see dann for the hyperlink.)

I am aware that other members will love stuff like what posted but I find it cringey and boring. And yes I am aware I am currently an active member but I'm becoming increasingly bored with the low quality content here, perhaps soon I won't be active and I will go the way of what thousands of others have done and leave.

Last edited by Baylor; 2nd February 2020 at 08:16 PM.
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Old 2nd February 2020, 08:37 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I'd argue it's a mixture of lots of different things but it really doesn't matter. Different races have different values and voting patterns. "Leftist" former politician Hilary Clinton discussed this very thing in her e-mails in order to use it to her advantage. So "leftist" Hilary Clinton is just as much as a "race realist" as anyone. Different races have do have different sets of values and this is a point you also seemed to have ceded.
We tend to assign particular traits to ethnic groups for one particular purpose, like electoral strategy, but often that concept gets muddied up and we subconsciously think of their actions as functions of their skin color or appearance. That's the shortcut people tend to take. It doesn't follow.
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Old 2nd February 2020, 08:56 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
We tend to assign particular traits to ethnic groups for one particular purpose, like electoral strategy, but often that concept gets muddied up and we subconsciously think of their actions as functions of their skin color or appearance. That's the shortcut people tend to take. It doesn't follow.
Okay but aside from voting patterns there are clear behavioral distinctions between blacks and whites. But to stay on topic, the courting of black and other minority votes by "leftist" politicians creates a stubborn, robust reactionary class of whites that doesn't exist European countries. Hence the "Bernie would be centre-right in my country!"
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Old 2nd February 2020, 08:59 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Okay but aside from voting patterns there are clear behavioral distinctions between blacks and whites. But to stay on topic, the courting of black and other minority votes by "leftist" politicians creates a stubborn, robust reactionary class of whites that doesn't exist European countries. Hence the "Bernie would be centre-right in my country!"
Uh, yeah. Baylor Logic: "If the left would just ignore the blacks the whites would just fall in line!"
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Old 2nd February 2020, 09:06 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Okay but aside from voting patterns there are clear behavioral distinctions between blacks and whites.


Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
But to stay on topic, the courting of black and other minority votes by "leftist" politicians creates a stubborn, robust reactionary class of whites that doesn't exist European countries. Hence the "Bernie would be centre-right in my country!"
You're arguing that this:

Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
the courting of black and other minority votes by "leftist" politicians
leads to this:

Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
a stubborn, robust reactionary class of whites that doesn't exist European countries.
I think you've got the order wrong.
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Old 2nd February 2020, 09:13 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post




You're arguing that this:



leads to this:



I think you've got the order wrong.
Okay I think you're wrong. I'll add a smilie to prove it.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 02:02 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
We tend to assign particular traits to ethnic groups for one particular purpose, like electoral strategy, but often that concept gets muddied up and we subconsciously think of their actions as functions of their skin color or appearance. That's the shortcut people tend to take. It doesn't follow.
I wonder what possible reason minority voters could have for voting for a party with progressive policies designed to bring about racial equality, instead of a party run by actual white supremacists? Must be because they have different values.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 06:47 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I wonder what possible reason minority voters could have for voting for a party with progressive policies designed to bring about racial equality, instead of a party run by actual white supremacists? Must be because they have different values.
Those voters are the opportunistic types who in slavery days hoped to get promoted from the fields to the manor house if they sucked up to the Maasuh enough.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 07:05 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Those voters are the opportunistic types who in slavery days hoped to get promoted from the fields to the manor house if they sucked up to the Maasuh enough.
I think you need to a) calm down a little, and b) re-read what you're replying to.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 07:48 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Please refer to post 295
Don't be coy now. If you truly believe what you claimed to believe, you must have some inkling of what to do about it.
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Old 4th February 2020, 08:01 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'm using the term coloquially. I admit, I'm only discovering that I was now.

Generally, I think people use it to mean a government taxing and spending, don't they?
If by people, you mean right wing pundits trying to demonize social democracy and mainstream economics in order to support for their own pseudo-scientific version then sure.
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
What term should I be using?
It depends on the context, but some of if falls under social democracy while other parts fall under economics/market theory. Spending for reasons fairness, equability, justice or compassion generally fall under the social democracy heading. Economics is a little more complicated to explain

There is a tendency in the US to paint business and market economies as two sides of the same coin, but this isn’t really the case. (Economists typically support the Democrats by ~ 3:1 margin) The reality of modern economics is that you can often get better overall economic performance by addressing market failures either though regulation or by having government provide the service directly. The caveat is that you need to look at each policy on a case by case basis because there is always the risk of government failures that take an even bigger toll on economic efficiency than market failures.

Business, however, loves market failures because that’s where the greatest profits are. Perfectly completive markets actually converge on profits that are near zero because competitors undercut each other until there is no profit left or force them to spend on R&D to leapfrog each other to produce better and better products.

Socialism tends not to create efficient markets because its prone to government failures. By labeling ALL government actions to make markets more competitive and/or efficient as Socialism business related special interest can limit government actions to address real issues with market efficiency which in turn means they can exploit these inefficiencies for their own profit even though it’s harmful to the overall economy.

In terms of economics, therefor the political spectrum looks something like this:
Left: Characterized by heavy government intervention in the economy, Government failures tend to limit economic growth and prosperity. There is no such party in the US, but if there was a Socialist party this is where it would sit.

Center: Characterized by selective government intervention based on balancing the risk between government and market failure. In balancing the risk of government vs market failures Center Left would favor risking government failure, center right (Eg Mainstream Democrats) would favor risking market failures.

Right: Characterized by rejecting nearly all government actions to improve market efficiency even when it’s clear that market failures are an issue. Just as with government failures on the Left, market failures limit growth and prosperity.
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Old 4th February 2020, 09:25 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Wow. Such a hot take. It's a universal principle that diversity leads to conflict and the more racial, ethnic, religious, and linguistic fractionalization within a country, the more difficult it is to allocate resources and provide for a decent standard of living for its citizens.
Fins, Sweeds and Russians are distinctly different ethnic groups, speak completely different languages, who have spent the better part of the last 1000 years killing each other. Apparently, this doesn’t count as diversity. However, people can grow up in the same country speaking the same language, watching the same TV channels, etc are “diverse” form no other reason than they can be separated by a meaningless physical trait.
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
The failed states of Africa prove this, as do the violent racially diverse countries of south America and the stable lily white countries of Northern Europe. So does all of human history. Skeptics' take: "Racism is bad." Wow. So thought-provoking.
Fun fact. Both mtDNA and Y-DNA show that the Bantu Peoples like the Zulu and Khoisan peoples who were both on the receiving end of “diversity” problems South Africa are not as closely related as the Bantu people are to the “Lily white Northern Europeans”. “Race” however, groups the Khoisan and Bantu people together solely due to skin color.


Clearly the "problem" with diversity comes down to otherwise meaningless visible markers than allow idiots and morons to target other groups for oppression. Take away the meaningless visible markers and suddenly diversity not only isn't a problem, it apparently doesn't exist at all.
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Old 4th February 2020, 09:45 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Let's stipulate for the moment that observers are correct in stating that American politics are skewed right compared to much of the rest of the world, and thus that there is not real left party in the US as AOC said.

Why do you think that is?
IMO three things happened in early 90’s that set the US on a divergent path to the rest of the world.

1) Clinton moved the previously left leaning Democratic party significantly to the right
2) House Republicans lead by Newt Gingrich rejected and undermined the more pragmatic Reagan/Bush version of conservatism and began labeling it as “RINO”
3) The rise of right wing radio and other far-right media. They conducted sensationalist attacks, not just on the Left but also right leaning Democrats and moderate Republicans who deviated from their hard line ultra-right wing dogma.
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Old 4th February 2020, 10:07 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Back in the Tea Party heyday it occurred to me that these movements were made up of people who fundamentally had no interest in cooperation.
Back in the Tea Party heyday, I supported the Tea Party movement. It was definitely not interested in cooperation with the GOP establishment (similar to AOC's relationship to the DNC establishment today). But that didn't mean no interest in cooperation at all. I would have happily cooperated with anyone else looking to disrupt the GOP establishment.

In the end, the GOP establishment only needed one election cycle to crush the Tea Party. But they didn't crush the desire of conservatives to disrupt the GOP. Hence Trump.

And there's a similar dynamic playing out on the left, too. AOC and the Bernie Bros should be telling you somenthing, not about their appetite for cooperation, but about their appetite for disruptive change. Look at what's happening in Iowa right now. People don't want to cooperate with the establishment wing of the party.

Ironically, it's the Tea Party voice in my head that says "vote Sanders." What I really need is a crystal ball that tells me whether the Senate is going to flip.
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Old 4th February 2020, 10:50 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Back in the Tea Party heyday, I supported the Tea Party movement. It was definitely not interested in cooperation with the GOP establishment (similar to AOC's relationship to the DNC establishment today). But that didn't mean no interest in cooperation at all. I would have happily cooperated with anyone else looking to disrupt the GOP establishment.

In the end, the GOP establishment only needed one election cycle to crush the Tea Party. But they didn't crush the desire of conservatives to disrupt the GOP. Hence Trump.

And there's a similar dynamic playing out on the left, too. AOC and the Bernie Bros should be telling you somenthing, not about their appetite for cooperation, but about their appetite for disruptive change. Look at what's happening in Iowa right now. People don't want to cooperate with the establishment wing of the party.

Ironically, it's the Tea Party voice in my head that says "vote Sanders." What I really need is a crystal ball that tells me whether the Senate is going to flip.
I agree with this analysis.
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:01 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I would have happily cooperated with anyone else looking to disrupt the GOP establishment.
I hit "Submit" in haste and enthusiasm. And optimism. In fact, I recognize that there will always be deplorables looking to disrupt the political establishment. Communists on the left, neo-Nazis on the right. Obviously I can't do much to stop them aligning their disruption with mine, if that's their strategy. But I do not and would not cooperate with certain disruptive strategies they bring to the table. Nor would I vote for one of their ilk in the name of political disruption.
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:17 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Ironically, it's the Tea Party voice in my head that says "vote Sanders." What I really need is a crystal ball that tells me whether the Senate is going to flip.
And if the Senate does flip, that'll tell you things could actually get done, and you don't want that. Am I hearing that right?
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:28 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
And if the Senate does flip, that'll tell you things could actually get done, and you don't want that. Am I hearing that right?
Correct. If I knew the Senate would flip, I'd prefer Trump.

The tricky thing for me right now, as my state's Democratic primary approaches is -

- figuring out which Dem candidate is likely to beat Trump in the general, and

- figuring out whether the Senate is likely to flip.
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Old 4th February 2020, 02:34 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Correct. If I knew the Senate would flip, I'd prefer Trump.

The tricky thing for me right now, as my state's Democratic primary approaches is -

- figuring out which Dem candidate is likely to beat Trump in the general, and

- figuring out whether the Senate is likely to flip.
Curious what your rationale was for voting Trump over Clinton.
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Old 4th February 2020, 02:40 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Curious what your rationale was for voting Trump over Clinton.
There were a number of factors. This isn't really the thread for it. One of the main dealbreakers for me was the email server, and her attitude about the email server.
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Old 4th February 2020, 03:52 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There were a number of factors. This isn't really the thread for it. One of the main dealbreakers for me was the email server, and her attitude about the email server.

Why settle for some old corruption when you have an opportunity for brand new corruption every single day, amirite?
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Old 4th February 2020, 04:51 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Correct. If I knew the Senate would flip, I'd prefer Trump.
Trump and the Democrats could get some interesting things done if he'd let go of his faux "conservative" shtick. But it may be too late for that.

Disruption for its own sake seems like the antithesis of the conservatism I grew up with.
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Old 4th February 2020, 07:19 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Fins, Sweeds and Russians are distinctly different ethnic groups, speak completely different languages, who have spent the better part of the last 1000 years killing each other. Apparently, this doesn’t count as diversity. However, people can grow up in the same country speaking the same language, watching the same TV channels, etc are “diverse” form no other reason than they can be separated by a meaningless physical trait.
Ask any black person and he will tell you their differences from white people are not "meaningless."


Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Fun fact. Both mtDNA and Y-DNA show that the Bantu Peoples like the Zulu and Khoisan peoples who were both on the receiving end of “diversity” problems South Africa are not as closely related as the Bantu people are to the “Lily white Northern Europeans”. “Race” however, groups the Khoisan and Bantu people together solely due to skin color.


Clearly the "problem" with diversity comes down to otherwise meaningless visible markers than allow idiots and morons to target other groups for oppression. Take away the meaningless visible markers and suddenly diversity not only isn't a problem, it apparently doesn't exist at all.
Hard to make sense out of this word salad but I'll give it a shot. Africa is a continent, not a country. An ethnically diverse continent, hence the failed states. I referenced both ethnic and racial diversity as problems for nation-states. You've appeared to have missed this and are having a bizarre argument with yourself.
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Old 4th February 2020, 08:42 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Ask any black person and he will tell you their differences from white people are not "meaningless."

Hard to make sense out of this word salad but I'll give it a shot. Africa is a continent, not a country. An ethnically diverse continent, hence the failed states. I referenced both ethnic and racial diversity as problems for nation-states. You've appeared to have missed this and are having a bizarre argument with yourself.
The distinction you try to make between ethnicity and race is annoying because you seem to be categorizing race along color lines. There are arguably several races among "blacks" in Africa and Asia. But that's neither here nor there and I'll stop there.

I'll tentatively accept the idea that groups of different people with different values and lifestyles in a country make it more difficult as a country to unite behind large-scale social programs.

I think though it's largely because of the enduring legacy of slavery and racial segregation, including ongoing efforts that began in the second half of the 20th century to Keep America White as it were from conservative propaganda like Fox News. The subtext of their work is always something about black welfare queens and parasites from the inner city.
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Old 4th February 2020, 09:27 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
The distinction you try to make between ethnicity and race is annoying because you seem to be categorizing race along color lines. There are arguably several races among "blacks" in Africa and Asia. But that's neither here nor there and I'll stop there.

I'll tentatively accept the idea that groups of different people with different values and lifestyles in a country make it more difficult as a country to unite behind large-scale social programs.

I think though it's largely because of the enduring legacy of slavery and racial segregation, including ongoing efforts that began in the second half of the 20th century to Keep America White as it were from conservative propaganda like Fox News. The subtext of their work is always something about black welfare queens and parasites from the inner city.
Thank you for being more mature this time. But I couldn't disagree more. People's poor understanding of decontextualized history and Fox News are not the cause of racial and ethnic antagonisms in the US. At best they are merely symptoms of a massive problem that is hundreds of millions of people of differing races sharing a country together. These problems would exist regardless of historical circumstance. These problems would exist with or without Fox News.
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Old 4th February 2020, 10:00 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
These problems would exist with or without Fox News.

That, however, is not mutually exclusive with Fox News and other media outlets exacerbating the problem.
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:51 PM   #349
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I’m not really sure what actual racial/ethnic differences there are when it comes to the values/goals/ideals of people who live in America. It would be ludicrous to say “Black people want X; White people want Y; Jews want Z.” Where X, Y and Z are almost completely opposed to each other.

I’d say, in our hearts, we really all want the same things but some people just can’t let go of old historical baggage long enough to just listen to each other. Politics really sucks.
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Old 5th February 2020, 05:18 AM   #350
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This might be instructive for some: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...iversity_level
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Old 5th February 2020, 05:20 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There were a number of factors. This isn't really the thread for it. One of the main dealbreakers for me was the email server, and her attitude about the email server.
Yeah, not-too-secure handling of after-the-fact classified emails sure is a lot worse than what we got.
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Old 5th February 2020, 05:21 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Hard to make sense out of this word salad but I'll give it a shot.
Made perfect sense to me. Maybe your language interpretor is set to "conservative talking points only."
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Old 5th February 2020, 06:16 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Why settle for some old corruption when you have an opportunity for brand new corruption every single day, amirite?
That kind of thing isn't a problem for you? Okay, let's try your way for a term or two.
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Old 5th February 2020, 06:19 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Trump and the Democrats could get some interesting things done if he'd let go of his faux "conservative" shtick. But it may be too late for that.

Disruption for its own sake seems like the antithesis of the conservatism I grew up with.
We're not talking about disruption right now. Nor were we talking about disruption for its own sake, when we were talking about disruption.

I don't really care about your childhood memories.
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Old 5th February 2020, 06:21 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah, not-too-secure handling of after-the-fact classified emails sure is a lot worse than what we got.
Different? Sure. Worse? Enh.
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Old 5th February 2020, 06:24 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That kind of thing isn't a problem for you? Okay, let's try your way for a term or two.

Unlike you, I tend to vote for the candidate with less corruption, not more.
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Old 5th February 2020, 06:48 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Unlike you, I tend to vote for the candidate with less corruption, not more.
Like a Clinton......?
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Old 5th February 2020, 06:59 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Unlike you, I tend to vote for the candidate with less corruption, not more.
Doesn't seem that way to me. But whatever you say.

Bringing it back around to the topic of the thread: If AOC primaries the incumbent in your House district, would you vote for the incumbent, or the challenger?
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Old 5th February 2020, 07:23 AM   #359
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post

I'll tentatively accept the idea that groups of different people with different values and lifestyles in a country make it more difficult as a country to unite behind large-scale social programs.
Again, though, Nordic countries have people from at least 3 completely different Ethnic/Language groups with longstanding grudges against each other but have no such issues.

Culture doesn’t really explain anything here. In successful nations, culture should change and adapt generation to generation. My grandchildren’s culture will be very different than that of my grandparents, and if it isn’t there is likely something wrong. What causes problems are people who use otherwise meaningless things like skin color to create artificial divisions and do silly things like trying to enforce cultural and ethnic purity.
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Old 5th February 2020, 07:41 AM   #360
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Like a Clinton......?
Maybe Cabbage doesn’t use conspiracy theories to assess how corrupt someone is…
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