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Tags 2020 elections , Bernie Sanders , presidential candidates

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Old 4th February 2020, 11:07 AM   #41
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
FDR won FOUR terms as a proud Progressive.

We have a name for people who refuse to learn the lessons of history and progres: conservatives.
Yes, FDR won multiple terms as a 'progressive'. However, a little historical context is important here.

The political landscape was substantially different back then.
- African-american voters often voted Republican.
- FDRs opponent in the 1940 elections was a former Democrat. at the time the entire political system of the U.S. seemed to be skewed to the left, As such, FDR wouldn't have seemed so extreme at the time
- FDRs election in 1944 was during world war 2, and I think being a 'wartime' president kind of skews the results of an election.
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:09 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
If you like Bernie, have you tried Warren? In a blind taste test 8 out of 10 cats either preferred Warren or couldn't tell the difference. And Warren is 30% more fat free than Bernie by volume mass weight! Ask your grocer if Warren is right for you!
Grocer? Are they both vegetables?

Surely ask a butcher?
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:10 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Electable to what? There's a reason he chose to sit out the first few debates.
To the Presidency should he choose to take up the cause. Bernie is too SOcialist to pull that off, so is Warren.
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:13 AM   #44
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Bernie is a lot more radical then FDR ever was.
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:14 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Grocer? Are they both vegetables?

Surely ask a butcher?
Warren's no vegetable, but Bernie is nuts.
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:15 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
But you keep letting the Republicans define "extremes".
No, I'm not. What is 'extreme' is based on what the electorate wants.

I saw an interview on The Daily Show (I believe it was with Republican strategist Rick Wilson, who strongly opposes Trump). He pointed out that the republicans have been smart, and they haven't been afraid to put forward moderate candidates when the situation presents itself.

Quote:
Also, one of the reason the "extreme" candidates don't win is the perceived lack of support form the party itself.
Do you really think that a potentially successful far-left candidate (after winning the primaries) would be shunned by the party just because "gee wiz, we could use the extra representation in congress but we just don't like the guy's policies".
Quote:
Answer this: If Biden starts from the middle and the GOP in Congress are on the extreme right, where does the negotiating go?
Well, probably goes a little better than having a far left candidate lose the election, and have the GOP in congress negotiating with a republican in the white house.
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:31 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Willing to qualify that? I could easily see centrist dems spiking the election by supporting some third party run or write-in campaign. Bloomberg seems like a likely candidate.

Party unity is only something they believe in when the progressives acquiesce to the centrists, never the other way.
We just saw "party loyalty" at work in the US Senate. Not a good advertisement for it.
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Old 4th February 2020, 03:42 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
All we need is another Great Depression to usher in a new golden age for Progressives.


...which the GOP, previously under GWB and now under Trump, are absolutely determined to bring about.


Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
A Great Depression and a World War.

....yeah, that too.

Is that why you bros support Republicans?
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Old 4th February 2020, 04:24 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Willing to qualify that? I could easily see centrist dems spiking the election by supporting some third party run or write-in campaign. Bloomberg seems like a likely candidate.

Party unity is only something they believe in when the progressives acquiesce to the centrists, never the other way.
Something to consider, yes. Though it's hard for me to imagine that if Bernie is the nominee the party won't back him. I believe they are smart enough to pick their battles when push comes to shove.
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Old 4th February 2020, 04:27 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Something to consider, yes. Though it's hard for me to imagine that if Bernie is the nominee the party won't back him. I believe they are smart enough to pick their battles when push comes to shove.
I don't think the party will back third party, but prominent DNC individuals might peel off.
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Old 4th February 2020, 05:37 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
...which the GOP, previously under GWB and now under Trump, are absolutely determined to bring about.





....yeah, that too.

Is that why you bros support Republicans?
You really do think Republicans want a depression, don't you?
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Old 4th February 2020, 06:12 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
All we need is another Great Depression to usher in a new golden age for Progressives.
We had a Great Recession and it took a Democrat to get us out of it.
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Old 4th February 2020, 06:46 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You really do think Republicans want a depression, don't you?

I think they are irresponsible enough to govern in such a way that leads to depressions, yes. And I am asking if that is why you vote for them.
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Old 5th February 2020, 05:06 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Bernie is a lot more radical then FDR ever was.
Examples?
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Old 6th February 2020, 05:55 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You really do think Republicans want a depression, don't you?
The GOP playbook is to break something then tell voters that they are the solution to what they themselves broke.
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Old 6th February 2020, 06:29 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
The GOP playbook is to break something then tell voters that they are the solution to what they themselves broke.
The leftie play book is to yell into the wind their never ending out rage, and then offer no solution, just outrage. So both suck.
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Old 6th February 2020, 07:23 AM   #57
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One of Bernies mistakes is not doing more to make it clear he's not a "socialist". Bernie is a social Democrat. His politics mirror the Scandinavian system of economics. A capitalist system underpinned by a strong social safety net. Not making the distinction clear just makes it that much easier for the right to scaremonger and constantly defer to Venezuela as an example of what Bernie style Gov't would supposedly bring to the table.
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Old 6th February 2020, 07:30 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
No, I'm not. What is 'extreme' is based on what the electorate wants.
The electorate wants progressive policies but gets told that only moderates are electable.

Quote:
I saw an interview on The Daily Show (I believe it was with Republican strategist Rick Wilson, who strongly opposes Trump). He pointed out that the republicans have been smart, and they haven't been afraid to put forward moderate candidates when the situation presents itself.
Oh, a Republican strategist called himself smart. Well, you certainly convinced me. And again, they didn't go "moderate", the redefined "moderate". That is where the strategy is.


Quote:
Do you really think that a potentially successful far-left candidate (after winning the primaries) would be shunned by the party just because "gee wiz, we could use the extra representation in congress but we just don't like the guy's policies".
Depends, do you think the bigger divide is between "left and right" or "rich a poor" ? Also, the Dems have been shown to be a slave to protocols and procedure. The GOP weaponizes this against them. They are more concerned with maintaining the veneer of normalcy than actually changing a broken system.

Quote:
Well, probably goes a little better than having a far left candidate lose the election, and have the GOP in congress negotiating with a republican in the white house.
I guess losing with a milk toast republican lite is a win. I mean, at least he doesn't offend anyone, right?
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Old 6th February 2020, 07:33 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Juniversal View Post
One of Bernies mistakes is not doing more to make it clear he's not a "socialist". Bernie is a social Democrat. His politics mirror the Scandinavian system of economics. A capitalist system underpinned by a strong social safety net. Not making the distinction clear just makes it that much easier for the right to scaremonger and constantly defer to Venezuela as an example of what Bernie style Gov't would supposedly bring to the table.
Mitch McConnell is calling Biden a socialist on the Sunday morning talk shows already. Buttigieg was right about that. The Republicans will scream "socialist" no matter who they put up. The Dems have to stop being afraid of how the Republicans are going to smear them and figure out how to sell these already popular ideas to the American people.
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Old 6th February 2020, 08:28 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Showing its possible to not agree with but respect a guy in politics. But if you want electable, Bloomberg is likely the way to go.
I agree with you, too. I think it is clear that Bloomberg is the best republican running. If only he didn't have to compete with Trump for votes.
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Old 6th February 2020, 08:30 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Mitch McConnell is calling Biden a socialist on the Sunday morning talk shows already. Buttigieg was right about that. The Republicans will scream "socialist" no matter who they put up. The Dems have to stop being afraid of how the Republicans are going to smear them and figure out how to sell these already popular ideas to the American people.
The problem for me is figuring out who Bernie should pick as a VP to help him with that sales pitch. He can reach some people, but he needs someone good to help him reach more people. But, that is the topic of another thread.
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Old 6th February 2020, 08:32 AM   #62
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Tammy Duckworth? I'd say Julian Castro, but Sanders teaming up with a guy named Castro may be a little too easy. I think there was a thread for potential VP picks of each candidate.
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Old 6th February 2020, 10:04 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
The problem for me is figuring out who Bernie should pick as a VP to help him with that sales pitch. He can reach some people, but he needs someone good to help him reach more people. But, that is the topic of another thread.
Also, age may prove a factor as he's not getting any younger and stress from fighting a Mitch the Turtle congress wouldnt help his blood pressure any.
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Old 6th February 2020, 10:04 AM   #64
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US voters hate nothing more than the feeling that their choice of candidate has been dictated by a Party Establishment- there is little enthusiasm for a seemingly inevitable nominee.
Bernie is clearly the candidate with the best chance to mobilize Democrats who otherwise might not vote at all.
Even if he doesn't get whatever goes for the moderate vote these days, there is little reason to assume that they would rather go to Trump than stay home.
And any strategy that depends on poaching from the MAGA crowd is obviously doomed to fail.

I consider Sanders the best chance for a White House takeover, and it will help even more if he looks like the underdog.
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Old 6th February 2020, 10:11 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
US voters hate nothing more than the feeling that their choice of candidate has been dictated by a Party Establishment- there is little enthusiasm for a seemingly inevitable nominee.
Bernie is clearly the candidate with the best chance to mobilize Democrats who otherwise might not vote at all.
Even if he doesn't get whatever goes for the moderate vote these days, there is little reason to assume that they would rather go to Trump than stay home.
And any strategy that depends on poaching from the MAGA crowd is obviously doomed to fail.

I consider Sanders the best chance for a White House takeover, and it will help even more if he looks like the underdog.
indeed.

The people that are attacking Bernie the most viciously, be it DNC elites, corporate media pundits, or big business leaders, are among some of the most universally hated and distrusted people in the country.

There is a populist streak running wild through this country. It's why Trump won. Running some status quo technocrat in 2020 is political suicide.
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Old 6th February 2020, 11:45 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
US voters hate nothing more than the feeling that their choice of candidate has been dictated by a Party Establishment- there is little enthusiasm for a seemingly inevitable nominee.
Bernie is clearly the candidate with the best chance to mobilize Democrats who otherwise might not vote at all.
Even if he doesn't get whatever goes for the moderate vote these days, there is little reason to assume that they would rather go to Trump than stay home.
And any strategy that depends on poaching from the MAGA crowd is obviously doomed to fail.

I consider Sanders the best chance for a White House takeover, and it will help even more if he looks like the underdog.
I'd believe it when I see it. He has the Left's support, not so much Centrist Democrats.
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Old 6th February 2020, 11:51 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Juniversal View Post
One of Bernies mistakes is not doing more to make it clear he's not a "socialist". Bernie is a social Democrat. His politics mirror the Scandinavian system of economics. A capitalist system underpinned by a strong social safety net. Not making the distinction clear just makes it that much easier for the right to scaremonger and constantly defer to Venezuela as an example of what Bernie style Gov't would supposedly bring to the table.
THIS.
Bernie problems is he has adapted a "No Enemies To The Left" policy, and he has attracted some of the real wacjobs, like the guy at one of this rallies waving a 'Marx was Right" sign.
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Old 6th February 2020, 11:52 AM   #68
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#BlueNoMatterWho right? Isn't that the centrist/establishment mantra?
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Old 6th February 2020, 11:52 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
indeed.

The people that are attacking Bernie the most viciously, be it DNC elites, corporate media pundits, or big business leaders, are among some of the most universally hated and distrusted people in the country.

There is a populist streak running wild through this country. It's why Trump won. Running some status quo technocrat in 2020 is political suicide.
Just struck me:You are lot more radical then Bernie is.

You really hate private business don't you?

And populism of any kind is bad news.
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Old 6th February 2020, 12:05 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
US voters hate nothing more than the feeling that their choice of candidate has been dictated by a Party Establishment- there is little enthusiasm for a seemingly inevitable nominee.
Bernie is clearly the candidate with the best chance to mobilize Democrats who otherwise might not vote at all.
As well as mobilize Republicans who might otherwise not vote at all to get out and vote to stop 'Crazy Commie Sanders".
Quote:
Even if he doesn't get whatever goes for the moderate vote these days, there is little reason to assume that they would rather go to Trump than stay home.
Why wouldn't they?

Sanders' schtick seems to appeal to blue collar workers, college students, etc. But in order to win, the Democrats also need at least some votes from Moderates. And if Sanders has policies that could negatively affect some of those moderate voters on a personal level, they MAY vote Trump (or not vote at all).
Quote:
And any strategy that depends on poaching from the MAGA crowd is obviously doomed to fail.
A candidate doesn't necessarily have to "poach" from the MAGA crowd. But, they could try picking up people who sat out the last election.

And it would also be nice if they didn't actually cause the MAGA crowd to expand.
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Old 6th February 2020, 12:08 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Just struck me:You are lot more radical then Bernie is.

You really hate private business don't you?

And populism of any kind is bad news.
Some are better than others. Ask the average voter how they feel about the CEOs on wall street. Prepare to be shocked by anti-business sentiment.

They'd probably be a lot better if they had to contend with a powerful union representing their employees interest. It would probably be a good idea if financial ghouls couldn't derail the entire economy by selling toxic assets.
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Old 6th February 2020, 12:11 PM   #72
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Deleted, wrong thread
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Old 6th February 2020, 12:12 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Because it turned out Americans in key swing states found a throwback message centering on unapologetic xenophobia, mercantilist trade policy, and White Christian Nationalism to be surprisingly appealing.
And the GOP vote counters made sure they did whether they did or not.
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Old 6th February 2020, 12:15 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
The leftie play book is to yell into the wind their never ending out rage, and then offer no solution, just outrage. So both suck.
Obama gave us plenty of good solutions. Trump has spent the last 3 years dismantling them via his appointments.
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Old 6th February 2020, 12:18 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post

And populism of any kind is bad news.
Only when it is conservative populism, but then again ANYthing conservative is anathema to a just society.
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Old 6th February 2020, 12:22 PM   #76
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Senate Republicans have just ordered the Secret Service to hand over travel records regarding Hunter Biden. We all know its BS but the GOP just wants to bore everyone and make every one think "both sides". But, hey, they aren't red baiting right? They certainly aren't accusing old Joe Biden of socialism.
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Old 6th February 2020, 12:54 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Juniversal View Post
One of Bernies mistakes is not doing more to make it clear he's not a "socialist".
What? He's literally a socialist, or at least as close to one as U.S. politicians get.

Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Also, age may prove a factor as he's not getting any younger and stress from fighting a Mitch the Turtle congress wouldnt help his blood pressure any.
Meanwile, I wonder - does Mitch even have blood pressure?

Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Sanders' schtick seems to appeal to blue collar workers, college students, etc. But in order to win, the Democrats also need at least some votes from Moderates. And if Sanders has policies that could negatively affect some of those moderate voters on a personal level, they MAY vote Trump (or not vote at all).
Bernie's policies probably aren't going to affect them anyway. He strikes me as someone who won't compromise as a matter of principle. Even with a Democratic Congress. IMO, he's not going to "pivot" anymore than Trump did. Elizabeth Warren is pretty far left, but with her I sense it's a negotiating tactic. I'm not sure why she is struggling. Too policy-oriented, maybe.
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Old 6th February 2020, 12:59 PM   #78
rockysmith76
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Obama gave us plenty of good solutions. Trump has spent the last 3 years dismantling them via his appointments.
Obama was not nearly as leftie as Bernie is and was much less confrontational Partisan wise, hardly a valid comparison. Incidentally I was referring to your...virtriol, not either of them.
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Old 6th February 2020, 01:00 PM   #79
rockysmith76
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Only when it is conservative populism, but then again ANYthing conservative is anathema to a just society.
No, just fodder for yelling at Cspan already. Fiscal Conservative is a good thing. Socially you may a point here and there.
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Old 6th February 2020, 01:03 PM   #80
Minoosh
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
There is a populist streak running wild through this country. It's why Trump won. Running some status quo technocrat in 2020 is political suicide.
I love technocrats. They're evidence-based. Populists arent, as far as I can tell. This is a very complicated world with many moving parts. Simple solutions don't exist. But people who say so don't seem to get anywhere.
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