ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags 2020 elections , Bernie Sanders , presidential candidates

Reply
Old 13th February 2020, 10:07 AM   #161
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 9,330
Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
You created an image of the minority taking over the party, which is similar to what happened back into proto USSR when the Boleshviks split from another Communist faction though I forget the name of them.

Bolsehviks then went on the grab the trains and everything else. If the shoe fits your analogy otherwise prove otherwise.

Bernieism wants to storm the Dems and be in a position to shove the Socialist states of America on the rest of us. Most of us don't want that.

I'm not an American, but based on what I've heard so far, it seems to me that 'Bernieism' wants to make the Democrats work for implementing what a majority of Americans, in particular the ones who vote for Democrats, want to see implemented: universal health care, free education, gun control, marriage equality a possibility for illegal immigrants living in the USA to stay. They don't seem to be talking about train grabbing, even though a lot of them would probably like to see changes to infrastructure to help fight global warming.

Do you fear that Bernie Sanders's followers are more likely to want a ruthless dictator like Stalin to take control of the USA than Republicans who meet frequently to chant that their dear leader should lock up his political opponents?
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2020, 10:20 AM   #162
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 14,832
Originally Posted by dann View Post
I'm not an American, but based on what I've heard so far, it seems to me that 'Bernieism' wants to make the Democrats work for implementing what a majority of Americans, in particular the ones who vote for Democrats, want to see implemented: universal health care
People want to see better health care (even universal health care). But people want to keep private health care options. Bernie's "medicare for all/no private options" is supported by only 13% of the population.

Plans by candidates like Biden (i.e. expand medicare/improve obamacare to fill in the gaps) have much more popular support.

Quote:
gun control,
Sanders' record on gun control is actually mixed. He voted against a bill that would expand background checks, but also voted for laws that limit assault weapons.
Quote:
marriage equality a possibility for illegal immigrants living in the USA to stay
Yes, he supports those things. I think all other democratic candidates do too.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2020, 11:54 AM   #163
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 11,037
Pure logic suggests that having private and public healthcare in parallel makes the public healthcare more expensive. This requires higher taxes on those who can afford to buy private healthcare, essentially negating the benefit of the private option.
__________________
ďImpeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.Ē-Sen. Lindsey Graham
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2020, 11:55 AM   #164
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 46,977
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
People want to see better health care (even universal health care). But people want to keep private health care options. Bernie's "medicare for all/no private options" is supported by only 13% of the population.

Plans by candidates like Biden (i.e. expand medicare/improve obamacare to fill in the gaps) have much more popular support.


Sanders' record on gun control is actually mixed. He voted against a bill that would expand background checks, but also voted for laws that limit assault weapons.

Yes, he supports those things. I think all other democratic candidates do too.
Bernie is asking people to give up their current health care for a system that nobody really known what it will look like. He wants a UHC that is a lot more rigid then those in Europe.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2020, 11:57 AM   #165
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 46,977
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Pure logic suggests that having private and public healthcare in parallel makes the public healthcare more expensive. This requires higher taxes on those who can afford to buy private healthcare, essentially negating the benefit of the private option.
Maybe true, but I think the right to choose is something Americans love, and they will not give it up easily.
That is something people on the left never get, frankly.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2020, 06:41 AM   #166
SuburbanTurkey
Master Poster
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 2,869
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Maybe true, but I think the right to choose is something Americans love, and they will not give it up easily.
That is something people on the left never get, frankly.
There is very little real choice in private healthcare. For most people, you get whatever your employer offers. They probably have two plans, an expensive plan and a very expensive plan.

People aren't opposed to single payer because they love choice. That's propaganda from the private insurers. They oppose single payer because they are absolutely terrified that it will be ineffective and leave them much worse off due to decades of fear-mongering.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2020, 09:31 AM   #167
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 14,832
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Pure logic suggests that having private and public healthcare in parallel makes the public healthcare more expensive.
First of all, evidence suggests otherwise.

The one country that comes closest to implementing a Bernie-style "medicare for all/no private insurance" plan (at least for basic medical care) is Canada. Most other western countries have a mix of private and public insurance.

And the cost of Canada's plan is... well, middle of the pack. Yes, its cheaper than the U.S. system, but its costs seem to be on par with other western countries. Yet it should be pointed out that Canada regularly scores lower than those other countries in health care rankings.

So, Canada's "single payer/no private" system doesn't save us anything compared to countries like the U.K. or Sweden (which allow private insurance), but we end up with a system that doesn't work as well as those countries that offer mixed public/private.

And that's what Sanders wants to give you.

https://www.commonwealthfund.org/pub...th-care-system
https://www.commonwealthfund.org/cha...ormance-scores

Quote:
This requires higher taxes on those who can afford to buy private healthcare...
If an individual considers private health care to be a personal priority and wants to pay extra, then why shouldn't he have that option? Even if YOU might consider it a foolish choice.
Quote:
essentially negating the benefit of the private option.
Actually, I'd say cost probably isn't one of the reasons why private options are good.

Where private options help is in making a system more responsive.. being able to identify where problems exist and cover them quickly.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2020, 09:41 AM   #168
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 14,832
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
There is very little real choice in private healthcare. For most people, you get whatever your employer offers. They probably have two plans, an expensive plan and a very expensive plan.
First of all, to some people, the idea of having one alternative is better than having exactly 0 alternatives.

Secondly, you are ignoring the possibility that some people may be willing to purchase their own health care (in which case they have many options).

Thirdly, even if your private insurance is through your employer, that does not mean you don't have options... you have the option of negotiating with your company, to tell them "As part of next year's contract we want you to add footrubs and manicures to our health insurance".
Quote:
People aren't opposed to single payer because they love choice. That's propaganda from the private insurers.
I see... It must be nice to be omniscient, to look into each and everyone's mind and to know exactly what every person thinks.

Could the person have actually looked at various systems that offer all-public vs. mixed public/private insurance and decided they wanted options based on that? No, must be propaganda.

Sanders seems to have the same problem... "I'm going to dictate to you what I think is best in health care because I think you're wrong". Its an attitude that might cause problems in the future.
Quote:
They oppose single payer because they are absolutely terrified that it will be ineffective and leave them much worse off due to decades of fear-mongering.
Or, perhaps they are looking at Canada (the country that most closely matches the proposed BernieCare program), seeing that while it may rank better than the U.S. still has major problems with things like waiting lists, and decided "Nah, maybe we should follow the lead of countries that have better rankings but allow private insurance".
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2020, 10:02 AM   #169
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 14,832
Oh, and while we're talking about health care and its impact on the upcoming election, here's something to keep in mind....

From: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...-2020-election
The data from the 2018 midterms shows House candidates who endorsed Medicare-for-all fared worse than their peers who didn’t. ... The best empirical evidence on Medicare-for-all’s electoral chances comes from Alan Abramowitz, a political science professor at Emory University. "Democratic candidates who endorsed Medicare for All did significantly worse than those who did not. The estimated coefficient of -4.6 indicates that support for Medicare for All cost Democratic candidates in these competitive districts almost five points of vote margin — a substantial effect in a close election."

But sure, keep telling us how popular medicare-for-all is, and how people are so anxious to throw away their private insurance in order to sign on to BernieCare.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2020, 10:32 AM   #170
SuburbanTurkey
Master Poster
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 2,869
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Oh, and while we're talking about health care and its impact on the upcoming election, here's something to keep in mind....

From: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...-2020-election
The data from the 2018 midterms shows House candidates who endorsed Medicare-for-all fared worse than their peers who didnít. ... The best empirical evidence on Medicare-for-allís electoral chances comes from Alan Abramowitz, a political science professor at Emory University. "Democratic candidates who endorsed Medicare for All did significantly worse than those who did not. The estimated coefficient of -4.6 indicates that support for Medicare for All cost Democratic candidates in these competitive districts almost five points of vote margin ó a substantial effect in a close election."

But sure, keep telling us how popular medicare-for-all is, and how people are so anxious to throw away their private insurance in order to sign on to BernieCare.
I am very well aware that medicare for all will be an uphill climb.

Bernie isn't an advocate for it because it's popular. He's an advocate for it because it's the right thing to do.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2020, 10:37 AM   #171
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 14,832
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I am very well aware that medicare for all will be an uphill climb.
Great... lets try to push an unpopular program during an election with a very slim margin of victory. Makes perfect sense.

Quote:
Bernie isn't an advocate for it because it's popular. He's an advocate for it because it's the right thing to do.
Except of course its not the right thing to do.

As I have posted earlier.... The best (highest ranked) systems in the western world provide universal health care through a mixture of private and public coverage. The country that most closely matches BernieCare is Canada, which usually ranks near the bottom. Better than the U.S., but nowhere near the top.

But hey, keep telling me how great waiting lists are! I'd love to hear about how great it is to be in a system where I can't get treatment for serious medical conditions, but I should be happy because at least the treatments I can't get are free.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2020, 10:43 AM   #172
SuburbanTurkey
Master Poster
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 2,869
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Great... lets try to push an unpopular program during an election with a very slim margin of victory. Makes perfect sense.


Except of course its not the right thing to do.

As I have posted earlier.... The best (highest ranked) systems in the western world provide universal health care through a mixture of private and public coverage. The country that most closely matches BernieCare is Canada, which usually ranks near the bottom. Better than the U.S., but nowhere near the top.

But hey, keep telling me how great waiting lists are! I'd love to hear about how great it is to be in a system where I can't get treatment for serious medical conditions, but I should be happy because at least the treatments I can't get are free.
No other candidate but Bernie is going to actually pursue meaningful health care reform. Warren already punted on universal coverage until "year 3", and the others either have BS plans or no plans at all.

The status quo, or incremental reform, means that Americans will continue to die preventable deaths. It means that Americans will continue to be bankrupted by medical death.

Bernie is unwavering on this issue because literally tens of thousands of people will die until something is done.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2020, 10:57 AM   #173
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 14,832
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
No other candidate but Bernie is going to actually pursue meaningful health care reform. Warren already punted on universal coverage until "year 3", and the others either have BS plans or no plans at all.
Ah yes, the whole "You can only trust Bernie on this" argument.

The fact that other candidates do not believe BernieCare is the best way to go does not mean that their plans are "BS".
Quote:
The status quo
None of the other candidates (at least that I am aware of) want the status quo. Even the moderate ones are talking about expanding access to medicare, improved subsidies, etc.
Quote:
or incremental reform, means that Americans will continue to die preventable deaths. It means that Americans will continue to be bankrupted by medical death.
Given the complexity of the health care system, incremental reforms (which will benefit people without insurance) can probably be done a lot faster than just "toss everything out and replace it with BernieCare".

By the way, I'm Canadian and live under a "medicare for all" system. I have been waiting almost a year to see a specialist for a condition that is known to lead to premature death. Part of the wonderful waiting list problem we have here. So please, tell me how happy I should be to have my "socialist" health care.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2020, 11:03 AM   #174
SuburbanTurkey
Master Poster
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 2,869
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Ah yes, the whole "You can only trust Bernie on this" argument.

The fact that other candidates do not believe BernieCare is the best way to go does not mean that their plans are "BS".

None of the other candidates (at least that I am aware of) want the status quo. Even the moderate ones are talking about expanding access to medicare, improved subsidies, etc.

Given the complexity of the health care system, incremental reforms (which will benefit people without insurance) can probably be done a lot faster than just "toss everything out and replace it with BernieCare".

By the way, I'm Canadian and live under a "medicare for all" system. I have been waiting almost a year to see a specialist for a condition that is known to lead to premature death. Part of the wonderful waiting list problem we have here. So please, tell me how happy I should be to have my "socialist" health care.
Access isn't coverage. A long wait is unfortunate, but eventually you will be seen. Uninsured, poor people here don't have long wait times, they have nothing. They neglect their medical needs until it rises to the level of an emergency that an ER must treat. Often deferred care is less effective and much more expensive than proper preventative medicine.

People in the US are rationing their insulin and begging for money on GoFundMe to cover life saving treatment.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 14th February 2020 at 11:10 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2020, 11:17 AM   #175
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 53,629
I demand we replace our imperfect system with a perfect one immediately. Any problem with the proposed system renders it inferior to what we have now. Yes, I'm currently being eaten from the feet upwards by a crocodile. No, I will not accept being pulled into the safety of the boat, there may be spiders in it.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2020, 11:29 AM   #176
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 14,832
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Access isn't coverage.
And from my personal experience, coverage isn't access either.

It has been ~10 months since I last asked my doctor to refer me to a specialist to handle a condition that is known to cause premature death (through heart attacks and strokes) as well as impacting depression and ADHD. So far no appointment.

Year-long wait lists for potentially life-saving treatments is what "medicare-for-all" can give you. Universal access to waiting lists.
Quote:
People in the US are rationing their insulin and begging for money on GoFundMe to cover life saving treatment.
And in Canada (land of "medicare for all") a patient sued the government (and won in the supreme court) because it was found that the Canadian system (which, as you know, is a sort of version of BernieCare)

By the way, you wouldn't necessarily have to eliminate private insurance to handle those types of cases. Expand medicare, make it available for all who need it, but keep private options for those who want it. They won't have to go begging for money to get treatment. The idea that you have to force everyone onto the public system for everything appears to be more ideological rather than as a pragmatic "must save lives" approach.

I have a question for you...

What is it about the health care issue that turns people into brain damaged parrots who are unable to comprehend certain facts? Seriously the same thing happens whenever health care issues are discussed.

Someone: Look how bad the U.S. system is! We need medicare for all
Me: The U.S. has problems and needs to be changed but there are better models
Someone: But look how bad the American system is
Me: I have already said the American system is broken. I'm saying you should adopt a health care model that is shown to have the best results
Someone: But look at how bad the American system is!

Seriously, regardless of the number of times I point out that the American system is broken, regardless of the number of times I point out that there are better models than BernieCare/Canada's system that give universal coverage without the problems that an true single-payer system has, people always circle around to the same argument: "Look at how bad the American system is", without any regard to what I've actually written. So what is it about the issue that makes people unable to comprehend the fact that there are other successful systems out there?
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2020, 11:39 AM   #177
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 14,832
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Access isn't coverage. A long wait is unfortunate, but eventually you will be seen.
Will the patient be seen before or after they are dead?

From: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montr...aths-1.5199082
...a recent survey by the Quebec's association of cardiac surgeons found 12 patients died between January and April while waiting for an operation.

Being stuck on a waiting list kills.

Oh, and by the way, even if a patient does eventually get seen, that doesn't mean that they aren't suffering significant hardship in the mean time. I had a cousin who needed an MRI to diagnose a possible muscle/tendon injury. It was affecting his ability to work, and causing him significant pain. He was stuck on a waiting list for months.

Nice of you to minimize his suffering for that.

Quote:
Uninsured, poor people here don't have long wait times, they have nothing.
And going to a mixed public/private system that gives universal coverage but allows them to use private insurance if the prefer would give them coverage.

Once again.... other countries provide universal coverage but allow private insurance options.

What is it about that concept that you are unable to understand?
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2020, 11:43 AM   #178
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,164
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
And from my personal experience, coverage isn't access either.

It has been ~10 months since I last asked my doctor to refer me to a specialist to handle a condition that is known to cause premature death (through heart attacks and strokes) as well as impacting depression and ADHD. So far no appointment.

Year-long wait lists for potentially life-saving treatments is what "medicare-for-all" can give you. Universal access to waiting lists.

And in Canada (land of "medicare for all") a patient sued the government (and won in the supreme court) because it was found that the Canadian system (which, as you know, is a sort of version of BernieCare)

By the way, you wouldn't necessarily have to eliminate private insurance to handle those types of cases. Expand medicare, make it available for all who need it, but keep private options for those who want it. They won't have to go begging for money to get treatment. The idea that you have to force everyone onto the public system for everything appears to be more ideological rather than as a pragmatic "must save lives" approach.

I have a question for you...

What is it about the health care issue that turns people into brain damaged parrots who are unable to comprehend certain facts? Seriously the same thing happens whenever health care issues are discussed.

Someone: Look how bad the U.S. system is! We need medicare for all
Me: The U.S. has problems and needs to be changed but there are better models
Someone: But look how bad the American system is
Me: I have already said the American system is broken. I'm saying you should adopt a health care model that is shown to have the best results
Someone: But look at how bad the American system is!

Seriously, regardless of the number of times I point out that the American system is broken, regardless of the number of times I point out that there are better models than BernieCare/Canada's system that give universal coverage without the problems that an true single-payer system has, people always circle around to the same argument: "Look at how bad the American system is", without any regard to what I've actually written. So what is it about the issue that makes people unable to comprehend the fact that there are other successful systems out there?
Your plan sounds like a great one if you are completely ignorant of American political history. It wouldn't even get out the door before the free/public option was deliberately neutered to the point of uselessness, used to shame people who need it, over-administrated, underfunded, and then pointed at by the people who crippled it as an example of how this kind of idea is unworkable. Because their asses won't be affected by it, so why the hell should they care?
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2020, 07:41 AM   #179
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 17,906
Propagandists Cry About Bernie’s Online Base Because It’s Effective, Not Because It’s Mean
__________________
Audiatur et altera pars
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2020, 07:51 AM   #180
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 11,037
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
It can easily be both.
__________________
ďImpeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.Ē-Sen. Lindsey Graham
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2020, 12:39 PM   #181
SuburbanTurkey
Master Poster
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 2,869
Study from Yale School of Public Health concerning medicare for all. The major findings:

- 68,000 more deaths would be prevented compared to current system.
- would save the US $458 billion every year

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...019-3/fulltext
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2020, 03:22 PM   #182
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 14,832
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Quote:
By the way, you wouldn't necessarily have to eliminate private insurance to handle those types of cases. Expand medicare, make it available for all who need it, but keep private options for those who want it. They won't have to go begging for money to get treatment. The idea that you have to force everyone onto the public system for everything appears to be more ideological rather than as a pragmatic "must save lives" approach.
Your plan sounds like a great one if you are completely ignorant of American political history. It wouldn't even get out the door before the free/public option was deliberately neutered to the point of uselessness, used to shame people who need it, over-administrated, underfunded, and then pointed at by the people who crippled it as an example of how this kind of idea is unworkable. Because their asses won't be affected by it, so why the hell should they care?
In places like the U.K. and Sweden, the number of people covered by private health insurance is relatively small (around 5-10%), but it is enough to keep a certain segment of the population happy, should they want a slightly different type of care. Most people stick with the public system.

If BernieCare is going to be so great, you would expect the same situation: The majority of people using the pubic system, and only a small handful of people deciding to use the private system. And while the Republicans are always eager to find new and exciting things to cut, they also want to get re-elected, and I doubt very much whether they would touch a program that their supporters would be using.

Heck, even medicare got expanded under Bush Jr. And Trump made it a point of promising not to touch Medicare/Social security during the 2016 election.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2020, 06:38 PM   #183
Baylor
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,194
Originally Posted by dann View Post
I'm not an American, but based on what I've heard so far, it seems to me that 'Bernieism' wants to make the Democrats work for implementing what a majority of Americans, in particular the ones who vote for Democrats, want to see implemented: universal health care, free education, gun control, marriage equality a possibility for illegal immigrants living in the USA to stay. They don't seem to be talking about train grabbing, even though a lot of them would probably like to see changes to infrastructure to help fight global warming.

Do you fear that Bernie Sanders's followers are more likely to want a ruthless dictator like Stalin to take control of the USA than Republicans who meet frequently to chant that their dear leader should lock up his political opponents?
Gay marriage has been legal across the board since 2013 so I don't know what you're talking about. Education is free for the first twelve years of school which typically end at age 18. Illegal aliens have a greater chance of getting struck by lightening than being deported.

*dann googles, doesn't like being proved wrong.* NB4 "technically I'm right cause of this hyperlink"
Baylor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2020, 08:13 PM   #184
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,633
John Oliver tackles Medicare for All:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2020, 05:14 AM   #185
SuburbanTurkey
Master Poster
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 2,869
Bernie fills the Tacoma dome at latest rally. 17k supporters came to hear him speak.

https://twitter.com/JordanUhl/status...43873737150464
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2020, 05:57 AM   #186
d4m10n
Illuminator
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 4,621
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Bernie fills the Tacoma dome at latest rally. 17k supporters came to hear him speak.

https://twitter.com/JordanUhl/status...43873737150464
He might have a shot at the key swing state of Washington.
__________________
I'm a happy SINner on the Skeptic Ink Network!
Background Probability: Against Irrationality, Innumeracy, and Ignobility
http://skepticink.com/backgroundprobability/
d4m10n is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2020, 05:59 AM   #187
SuburbanTurkey
Master Poster
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 2,869
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
He might have a shot at the key swing state of Washington.
What the swing states love are unenthusiastic, centrist technocrats. You got me, changing my support to Pete.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2020, 06:06 AM   #188
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 88,374
Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
That sounds very historically "Bolshevik", when do they plan on seizing the railroads?
I wasn't aware that the Bolsheviks were in favour of democracy.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2020, 06:12 AM   #189
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 88,374
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
And in Canada (land of "medicare for all") a patient sued the government (and won in the supreme court) because it was found that the Canadian system (which, as you know, is a sort of version of BernieCare)
What's the rest of that sentence? Don't leave me hanging like that!

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Pure logic suggests
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2020, 06:59 AM   #190
BrooklynBaby
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,079
The healthcare problem was solved by Obamacare, was it not, so why do we need Berniecare?
BrooklynBaby is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2020, 07:10 AM   #191
Delvo
الشيطان الأبيض
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 8,273
What do yall mean when you say "technocrat(ic)"? I've never heard any candidate say government should be run by technology, so it seems like it must be a metaphor unless you have a stash of quotes that I've never heard of and the pundits haven't been reacting to, but then, a metaphor for what and how does the metaphor work?
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2020, 07:19 AM   #192
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 88,374
Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
The healthcare problem was solved by Obamacare, was it not, so why do we need Berniecare?
Oh, so that's the problem! You thought the ACA was supposed to solve healthcare.

No one thought healthcare could be this complicated, amirite?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2020, 07:20 AM   #193
SuburbanTurkey
Master Poster
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 2,869
Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
What do yall mean when you say "technocrat(ic)"? I've never heard any candidate say government should be run by technology, so it seems like it must be a metaphor unless you have a stash of quotes that I've never heard of and the pundits haven't been reacting to, but then, a metaphor for what and how does the metaphor work?
I usually see technocrats as political wonks. People that tout their deep knowledge of law or policy and claim that this skill will make them more successful in office. That their deep expertise will allow them to outsmart the problems of modern politics through complicated policy proposals.

The best example of technocratic nonsense that immediately comes to mind is Kamala Harris' loan forgiveness plan that would:

Quote:
... forgive debts for "Pell Grant recipients who start a business that operates for three years in disadvantaged communities."
https://www.businessinsider.com/kama...-people-2019-7
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 18th February 2020 at 07:22 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2020, 07:35 AM   #194
BrooklynBaby
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,079
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Oh, so that's the problem! You thought the ACA was supposed to solve healthcare.

No one thought healthcare could be this complicated, amirite?
The purpose of Obamacare was to make health insurance affordable for people who couldn't afford it. So, now that everyone is covered, there is no need for Berniecare.
BrooklynBaby is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2020, 07:37 AM   #195
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 14,832
Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
The healthcare problem was solved by Obamacare, was it not, so why do we need Berniecare?
Doubt anyone thought it would "solve" health care problems. It was however designed to IMPROVE the situation. And it did... The number of uninsured dropped significantly under it

Of course thanks to the Republicans many of the improvements have been reversed/list.

Sent from my LM-X320 using Tapatalk
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2020, 07:48 AM   #196
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 88,374
Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
The purpose of Obamacare was to make health insurance affordable for people who couldn't afford it. So, now that everyone is covered, there is no need for Berniecare.
You understand that the second sentence does not follow from the first, right?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2020, 08:31 AM   #197
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 14,832
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Quote:
And in Canada (land of "medicare for all") a patient sued the government (and won in the supreme court) because it was found that the Canadian system (which, as you know, is a sort of version of BernieCare)
What's the rest of that sentence? Don't leave me hanging like that!
My apologies... sometimes the cursor on my laptop jumps unexpectedly and I lose some text, and I don't always proofread as much as I should have.

What I was going to say was:
And in Canada (land of "medicare for all") a patient sued the government (and won in the supreme court) because it was found that the Canadian system (which, as you know, is a sort of version of BernieCare) violated the patient's human rights (as layed out in the Quebec Charter of Rights and Freedoms) because of excessive wait times.

Think about that: the one country that has implemented "BernieCare" has found that the resulting wait times were an abuse of human rights.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaoulli_v_Quebec_(AG)
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2020, 08:34 AM   #198
BrooklynBaby
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,079
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You understand that the second sentence does not follow from the first, right?
Of course, I was being facetious. Today's Democrats and their fake news division don't even mention Obamacare anymore. They pretend like it never even happened. So, now it is Berniecare, and I have absolutely no doubt that it will be a huge disaster, making things worse for more people than it makes better for those it benefits. Bernie knows nothing about his own "plan", just its tagline, "Medicare For All". It's a joke, and a dangerous one. We don't need a slacker like Bernie and an idiot like AOC to do our planning for us. For some reason I will never understand, the Democrats have jumped in bed with these socialists, and I think it is going to cost them big in November.

I like my plan through my employer and want to keep my plan.
BrooklynBaby is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2020, 08:43 AM   #199
Donal
Illuminator
 
Donal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,171
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Oh, and while we're talking about health care and its impact on the upcoming election, here's something to keep in mind....

From: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...-2020-election
The data from the 2018 midterms shows House candidates who endorsed Medicare-for-all fared worse than their peers who didnít. ... The best empirical evidence on Medicare-for-allís electoral chances comes from Alan Abramowitz, a political science professor at Emory University. "Democratic candidates who endorsed Medicare for All did significantly worse than those who did not. The estimated coefficient of -4.6 indicates that support for Medicare for All cost Democratic candidates in these competitive districts almost five points of vote margin ó a substantial effect in a close election."

But sure, keep telling us how popular medicare-for-all is, and how people are so anxious to throw away their private insurance in order to sign on to BernieCare.
More than a few misleading statements in there

Quote:
Itís easy to look at the other Democratic presidential candidates who had signed on to Sandersís plan, from Kamala Harris (whoís already dropped out) to Elizabeth Warren (who seems to be struggling to stay afloat), and conclude itís a political loser.
both Harris' and warren's decline correlate with their walking back on their more progressive policies and statements, including Medicare for All. It seems not supporting M4A did more damage than supporting it.

Also, measuring how well M4A candidates did in relation to non-M4A candidates is not an apples to apples comparison. The article cited even points out that the Dems avoided M4A candidates in purple districts. To go by those raw numbers ignores the realities and nuances of the primaries as well as the local machines. The DNC has also made no secret about its attitude towards progressive candidates, especially when they primary establishment figures.

It also assumes that their M4A stance was the reason any particular candidate won.
__________________
SuburbanNerd A blog for making tech make sense
Donal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2020, 09:16 AM   #200
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 26,454
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
My apologies... sometimes the cursor on my laptop jumps unexpectedly and I lose some text, and I don't always proofread as much as I should have.

What I was going to say was:
And in Canada (land of "medicare for all") a patient sued the government (and won in the supreme court) because it was found that the Canadian system (which, as you know, is a sort of version of BernieCare) violated the patient's human rights (as layed out in the Quebec Charter of Rights and Freedoms) because of excessive wait times.

Think about that: the one country that has implemented "BernieCare" has found that the resulting wait times were an abuse of human rights.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaoulli_v_Quebec_(AG)
How would that same court evaluate whether or not it violates the right to life and security of a person if treatment was too expensive for the patients to afford?
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:16 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.