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Old 4th February 2020, 10:56 AM   #1
ChristianProgressive
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What do we need to do to solve our corrupted political system?

Not the government itself, but the means by which we organize to influence our government?

I think the place to start (once the GOP has been removed from any ability to influence the process) is a full-press counterintelligence investigation that will expose the entire web of corrupt, dark money influences in our political process, including the massive foreign contributions flowing into places like the Federalist, the NRA, and other GOP institutions as well as ostensibly "left" ones like the Green Party, etc.
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:01 AM   #2
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The problems cannot be solved. The system will eventually collapse and be replaced with something different, which will have different problems. Rinse, repeat until humanity is extinct.
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:03 AM   #3
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Do you want solutions that could really happen or pie-in-the-sky ones?
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:07 AM   #4
ChristianProgressive
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Do you want solutions that could really happen or pie-in-the-sky ones?
Are you indirectly implying that the GOP dark money axis should not be invesitgated?
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:09 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Do you want solutions that could really happen or pie-in-the-sky ones?
I mean, a totalitarian one-party state that ruthlessly investigates all political dissent is a solution that could really happen. Has really happened more than once in human history already.

The only pie-in-the-sky part is how the party that hates the military and has no guns is going to get rid of the party that is the military and has all the guns.
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:10 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Are you indirectly implying that the GOP dark money axis should not be invesitgated?
Investigated by whom? And what's your plan for preventing the investigators themselves from falling under the control of dark money?
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:12 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Not the government itself, but the means by which we organize to influence our government?

I think the place to start (once the GOP has been removed from any ability to influence the process) is a full-press counterintelligence investigation that will expose the entire web of corrupt, dark money influences in our political process, including the massive foreign contributions flowing into places like the Federalist, the NRA, and other GOP institutions as well as ostensibly "left" ones like the Green Party, etc.
Lefties will never pull that off because they are have the problem. Both the Alt-Right and the Far Left are so divided that both sides bear responsibility for poisoning the system. In the middle most of the rest likely have Outrage fatigue.
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:13 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Do you want solutions that could really happen or pie-in-the-sky ones?
I think if we engineered humanity into a Borg-style collective part-machine consciousness we'd finally get rid of our political issues. But we'd only be replacing them with fashion disaster issues. Asymmetrical robot parts and matte black rubber gear do not look good on anyone, much less dead-white zombie people. I think we're better off keeping our flawed democracies.
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:14 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Are you indirectly implying that the GOP dark money axis should not be invesitgated?
You can't unite folks by villifying the other side, the intolerance of the Left is half the problem. They are so seemingly unwilling to step outside their own bubble and they end up talking AT people not with them. No dialogue no consensus. Noone has a monopoly on truth.
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:17 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Not the government itself, but the means by which we organize to influence our government?

I think the place to start (once Kerensky has been removed from any ability to influence the process) is a full-press counterintelligence investigation that will expose the entire web of corrupt, dark money influences in our political process, including the massive foreign contributions flowing into places like the Duma, the Octobrists, and other institutions as well as ostensibly "left" ones like the Mensheviks, etc.
Cheka-mate capitalists!
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:17 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Not the government itself, but the means by which we organize to influence our government?

I think the place to start (once the GOP has been removed from any ability to influence the process) is a full-press counterintelligence investigation that will expose the entire web of corrupt, dark money influences in our political process, including the massive foreign contributions flowing into places like the Federalist, the NRA, and other GOP institutions as well as ostensibly "left" ones like the Green Party, etc.
One Party state, then?
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:20 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Cheka-mate capitalists!
You caught on to the one Party state implicit in that rant too?
Not to mention the conspiracy crap...
I am not denying there has been some foreign money involved, but it probably is not that much ,certainly not enough to swing the election. Of course it should be investigated....any foreign meddling in our elections is not to be tolerated.....but I think most of the money involved is Home Grown.
And still amused on the Green Party being part of the plot.
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:25 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Both the Alt-Right and the Far Left
"Alt-Right and Ctrl-Left" is funnier.
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:26 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You caught on to the one Party state implicit in that rant too?
Not to mention the conspiracy crap...
I am not denying there has been some foreign money involved, but it probably is not that much ,certainly not enough to swing the election. Of course it should be investigated....any foreign meddling in our elections is not to be tolerated.....but I think most of the money involved is Home Grown.
And still amused on the Green Party being part of the plot.
Any third party that dilutes the progressive vote is part of the plot.
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:26 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You caught on to the one Party state implicit in that rant too?
Not to mention the conspiracy crap...
I am not denying there has been some foreign money involved, but it probably is not that much ,certainly not enough to swing the election. Of course it should be investigated....any foreign meddling in our elections is not to be tolerated.....but I think most of the money involved is Home Grown.
And still amused on the Green Party being part of the plot.
Yes.

Fighting Trump is laudable, but not at the expense of the constitution or pluralism. This cant turn into a "we had to destroy the village in order to save it".
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:28 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Any third party that dilutes the progressive vote is part of the plot.
Saboteurs comrade.


On the left. In the Green party. Under the bed. Saboteurs!
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:28 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Are you indirectly implying that the GOP dark money axis should not be invesitgated?
I have no idea how you could possibly suspect that from my question.

I think you might be starting to see enemies everywhere.
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:29 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think if we engineered humanity into a Borg-style collective part-machine consciousness we'd finally get rid of our political issues. But we'd only be replacing them with fashion disaster issues. Asymmetrical robot parts and matte black rubber gear do not look good on anyone, much less dead-white zombie people.
You say that now, but wait until you're plugged into the collective.
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:29 AM   #19
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"Starting"
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:31 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think if we engineered humanity into a Borg-style collective part-machine consciousness we'd finally get rid of our political issues. But we'd only be replacing them with fashion disaster issues. Asymmetrical robot parts and matte black rubber gear do not look good on anyone, much less dead-white zombie people. I think we're better off keeping our flawed democracies.
This is your personal opinion, IMHO in my Borg cosplay outfit 'But I'm kinda hot!'* Certainly there are no shortage of geeky boys that have seven of nine fantasies.

*if you don't get the pop reference google orbit gum.
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:32 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Not the government itself, but the means by which we organize to influence our government?

I think the place to start (once the GOP has been removed from any ability to influence the process) is a full-press counterintelligence investigation that will expose the entire web of corrupt, dark money influences in our political process, including the massive foreign contributions flowing into places like the Federalist, the NRA, and other GOP institutions as well as ostensibly "left" ones like the Green Party, etc.
I'm all for it, but unfortunately both sides of the aisle has been caught with their hands in the foreign money cookie jar:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_U...ce_controversy


The 1996 United States campaign finance controversy was an alleged effort by the People's Republic of China to influence domestic American politics prior to and during the Clinton administration and also involved the fund-raising practices of the administration itself.

While questions regarding the U.S. Democratic Party's fund-raising activities first arose over a Los Angeles Times article published on September 21, 1996,[1] China's alleged role in the affair first gained public attention when Bob Woodward and Brian Duffy of The Washington Post published a story stating that a United States Department of Justice investigation into the fund-raising activities had uncovered evidence that agents of China sought to direct contributions from foreign sources to the Democratic National Committee (DNC) before the 1996 presidential campaign. The journalists wrote that intelligence information had shown the Chinese embassy in Washington, D.C. was used for coordinating contributions to the DNC[2] in violation of United States law forbidding non-American citizens or non-permanent residents from giving monetary donations to United States politicians and political parties. A Republican investigator of the controversy stated the Chinese plan targeted both presidential and congressional United States elections, while Democratic senators said the evidence showed the Chinese targeted only congressional elections. The government of the People's Republic of China denied all accusations.
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:34 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I have no idea how you could possibly suspect that from my question.

I think you might be starting to see enemies everywhere.

Was'nt that a trait of Uncle Joe in Russia?
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:36 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
This is your personal opinion, IMHO in my Borg cosplay outfit 'But I'm kinda hot!'* Certainly there are no shortage of geeky boys that have seven of nine fantasies.

*if you don't get the pop reference google orbit gum.
Seven of Nine is fantasized about after her removal from the collective, though, not so much in her bald robot phase. I hope.
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:38 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Not the government itself, but the means by which we organize to influence our government?

I think the place to start (once the GOP has been removed from any ability to influence the process) is a full-press counterintelligence investigation that will expose the entire web of corrupt, dark money influences in our political process, including the massive foreign contributions flowing into places like the Federalist, the NRA, and other GOP institutions as well as ostensibly "left" ones like the Green Party, etc.
You should definitely go start the revolution. Outside. Revolutions happen outside.
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:38 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I have no idea how you could possibly suspect that from my question.

I think you might be starting to see enemies everywhere.
Has Outrage fatigue likely. Stepping away from the 'puter for a bit might do some good.
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:43 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Lefties will never pull that off because they are have the problem. Both the Alt-Right and the Far Left are so divided that both sides bear responsibility for poisoning the system. In the middle most of the rest likely have Outrage fatigue.
Yeah..no.

Of course this has been discussed ad nauseum but here we are again with the false equivalence brigade trying yet again.
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:47 AM   #27
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A massive resurgence of Unions might help.
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:48 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Seven of Nine is fantasized about after her removal from the collective, though, not so much in her bald robot phase. I hope.
I had the same thought, but then thought maybe I didn't know what I was talking about.
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Old 4th February 2020, 11:59 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yeah..no.

Of course this has been discussed ad nauseum but here we are again with the false equivalence brigade trying yet again.
Nope just a response of denial by the mire of partisan loyalty (fanatism), that can't see the left isn't the entire country. There's red and blue out there and you can't have a national dialogue if you're that divisive. Pick a side either is guilty.
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Old 4th February 2020, 12:00 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I'm all for it, but unfortunately both sides of the aisle has been caught with their hands in the foreign money cookie jar:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_U...ce_controversy


[b][i]The 1996 United States campaign finance controversy was an alleged effort by the People's Republic of China to influence domestic American politics prior to and during the Clinton administration and also involved the fund-raising practices of the administration itself.

While questions regarding the U.S. Democratic Party's fund-raising activities first arose over a Los Angeles Times article published on September 21, 1996,[snipped]
You think putting all that in bold describing a single incident of campaign money Clinton returned makes it look like a lot more?


So you think that's the same as Russia laundering money through the NRA to support GOP candidates?

Is it the same as Paul Ryan telling a group of Senators to shut up when they started joking in front of open mics about Rohrabacher taking Russian money?

Is it the same as the Russian campaign intervention in the 2016 election?

Is it the same as Russian oligarchs funding Trump's spending by laundering money through the Deutsche Bank which they then loaned to Trump when no other bank would?

Is it the same as Trump funneling money from multiple nonprofit sources like his current campaign donations into his own pockets using various phony payments as was uncovered a couple days ago?

Does it come anywhere close to the corruption that pours from every orifice Trump and his cronies have?
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Because feeding poor people is socialism.

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Old 4th February 2020, 12:00 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
A massive resurgence of Unions might help.
The Union is over half of what is wrong with my current workplace. Daed wood gets away with murder, and those Unqualified get jobs they aren't qualified by cronyism or Union abuse. They are not the answer.
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Old 4th February 2020, 12:08 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
A massive resurgence of Unions might help.
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TRUMP CHEATS What color hat should I order with that logo? Red on black maybe? Or black on pink?

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.
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Old 4th February 2020, 12:09 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Nope just a response of denial by the mire of partisan loyalty (fanatism), that can't see the left isn't the entire country. There's red and blue out there and you can't have a national dialogue if you're that divisive. Pick a side either is guilty.
IOW you haven't kept up.
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TRUMP CHEATS What color hat should I order with that logo? Red on black maybe? Or black on pink?

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.
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Old 4th February 2020, 12:09 PM   #34
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I get that I'll never separate the Left from their love of unions, but to me it's just always sounds like I'd just have two bosses, one of which I would have to pay.
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Old 4th February 2020, 12:10 PM   #35
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The problem with Congress not wanting to remove a corrupt president purely for political reasons lies at the heart of the Constitution. No document is perfect, but the failure to anticipate political parties or the willingness of congress to defer to the president is a pretty severe failing.

Black pill: Democrats should lean into the presidential unaccountability thing. It takes 2/3 votes of the Senate to remove, which is almost certainly impossible if it's a strictly party line vote. Next D president should just go hog wild. The system is going off the rails, first side to escalate to the extreme will be the last ones standing with power. **** it, kill the opposition leaders, arrest people that vote R, remain in power forever. Mask off imperial presidency.

Normal me: not any of the above.
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Old 4th February 2020, 12:12 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
IOW you haven't kept up.
Denial...
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Old 4th February 2020, 12:14 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You think putting all that in bold describing a single incident of campaign money Clinton returned makes it look like a lot more?


So you think that's the same as Russia laundering money through the NRA to support GOP candidates?

Is it the same as Paul Ryan telling a group of Senators to shut up when they started joking in front of open mics about Rohrabacher taking Russian money?

Is it the same as the Russian campaign intervention in the 2016 election?

Is it the same as Russian oligarchs funding Trump's spending by laundering money through the Deutsche Bank which they then loaned to Trump when no other bank would?

Is it the same as Trump funneling money from multiple nonprofit sources like his current campaign donations into his own pockets using various phony payments as was uncovered a couple days ago?

Does it come anywhere close to the corruption that pours from every orifice Trump and his cronies have?
The point is that CP's cure is worse than the disease.
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Old 4th February 2020, 12:16 PM   #38
ahhell
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You caught on to the one Party state implicit in that rant too?
Not to mention the conspiracy crap...
I am not denying there has been some foreign money involved, but it probably is not that much ,certainly not enough to swing the election. Of course it should be investigated....any foreign meddling in our elections is not to be tolerated.....but I think most of the money involved is Home Grown.
And still amused on the Green Party being part of the plot.
The Green Party being Russian Stooges is pretty much mainstream in the Dems these days. I heard James Carville make that very claim just yesterday.
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Old 4th February 2020, 12:17 PM   #39
rockysmith76
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The point is that CP's cure is worse than the disease.
agreed
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Old 4th February 2020, 12:19 PM   #40
theprestige
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The problem with Congress not wanting to remove a corrupt president purely for political reasons lies at the heart of the Constitution. No document is perfect, but the failure to anticipate political parties
I doubt very much that the Founders failed to anticipate political parties. There were political parties in England when they left it - had been for centuries. Political parties are attested as far back as Republican Rome.

Hell, the Founders formed political parties in the cause of founding the Union.
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