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Old 4th February 2020, 12:25 PM   #41
dudalb
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
A massive resurgence of Unions might help.
I 100% agree.
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Old 4th February 2020, 12:26 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
The Green Party being Russian Stooges is pretty much mainstream in the Dems these days. I heard James Carville make that very claim just yesterday.
I don't like the Greens very much, but I think they are perfectly capable of being spoilers without help from Russia.
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Old 4th February 2020, 12:36 PM   #43
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Step 1 define the problem

Step 2 measure the problem.


Take the NRA case for example. If you looked into it and found that it wasn't the money politicians were responding to, but the NRA's power to influence single issue voters, is that corruption?
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Old 4th February 2020, 03:34 PM   #44
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If you want specific proposols; a constitutional amendment for terms limits for both houses of congress. (Only way you can do it).
I think the eternal fear of not being reelected is behind a lot of the disfunction we see in congress.
Congress was never intended to be a life time job. Foudning fathers meant for somebody to go to congress, serve a few terms then return to private life. They invended for people to stay there for 30 years.
I suggest five terms for the House, Two for the Senate.
If people knew they would only be there for a few years, not a lifetime,,they might find the courage to make the tough decisions..do what is right even if it is not what your constituiens would like.
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Old 4th February 2020, 04:30 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
If you want specific proposols; a constitutional amendment for terms limits for both houses of congress. (Only way you can do it).
I think the eternal fear of not being reelected is behind a lot of the disfunction we see in congress.
Congress was never intended to be a life time job. Foudning fathers meant for somebody to go to congress, serve a few terms then return to private life. They invended for people to stay there for 30 years.
I suggest five terms for the House, Two for the Senate.
If people knew they would only be there for a few years, not a lifetime,,they might find the courage to make the tough decisions..do what is right even if it is not what your constituiens would like.
I don't see how term limits would help. In fact, it would likely make it worse. Those exiting public service after a fixed term might be looking for a cushy lobbyist job or some other payoff in the private sector and act accordingly. The steady churn of new politicians means a greater need to rely on big dollar donors.
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Old 4th February 2020, 04:42 PM   #46
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There's pros and cons to term limits. I have yet to see a conclusive argument either way.
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Old 4th February 2020, 04:44 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There's pros and cons to term limits. I have yet to see a conclusive argument either way.
I mean, seems like the real underlying problem is the absolutely gigantic amounts money that is flowing between big business and political campaigns.
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Old 4th February 2020, 05:02 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I don't see how term limits would help. In fact, it would likely make it worse. Those exiting public service after a fixed term might be looking for a cushy lobbyist job or some other payoff in the private sector and act accordingly. The steady churn of new politicians means a greater need to rely on big dollar donors.
That would do less damage then politicians caring about nothing more then being reelected.
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Old 4th February 2020, 05:03 PM   #49
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I remember how Harvard Law Professor Lawrence Lessig ran for president in 2016 as a democrat, with the sole intention to first fix the system and then vote again. He was, needless to say, bullied out at an early stage by the DNC machine.

Here is his website with the name of the act he wanted to introduce: https://equalcitizens.us/
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Old 4th February 2020, 05:31 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
That would do less damage then politicians caring about nothing more then being reelected.
If being reelected meant being accountable to voters and not grubbing for cash, i don't see that as a bad thing
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Old 4th February 2020, 05:42 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I mean, seems like the real underlying problem is the absolutely gigantic amounts money that is flowing between big business and political campaigns.
It shouldn't. Corporations are severely limited in the amount of money they can contribute to campaigns. What makes it seem absolutely gigantic to you?
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Old 4th February 2020, 06:32 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
I remember how Harvard Law Professor Lawrence Lessig ran for president in 2016 as a democrat, with the sole intention to first fix the system and then vote again. He was, needless to say, bullied out at an early stage by the DNC machine.

Here is his website with the name of the act he wanted to introduce: https://equalcitizens.us/
thanks for reminding me. I totally forgot about Lessig.
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Old 5th February 2020, 02:09 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I get that I'll never separate the Left from their love of unions, but to me it's just always sounds like I'd just have two bosses, one of which I would have to pay.
That's just so wrong. I don't know how the US managed to mess up the simple concept of labor organizing.
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Old 5th February 2020, 02:42 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
That's just so wrong. I don't know how the US managed to mess up the simple concept of labor organizing.
The Mafia.
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Old 5th February 2020, 03:23 AM   #55
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When those that benefit from a broken system are the only ones that can change it, you're screwed.


I do, however, see lots of what's referred to as 'enlightened centrism' in this thread. It really does make me believe, even more firmly, that Mr Overton's theory should be taught in school.
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Old 5th February 2020, 04:44 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
That's just so wrong. I don't know how the US managed to mess up the simple concept of labor organizing.
The common human failing of greed. Working for the good of the whole is very difficult in the face of temptation to seek individual advantage. Ultimately it's a problem of human nature, and ordinary workers are just as subject to it as are mighty capitalists.
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Old 5th February 2020, 05:01 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller View Post
The Mafia.
Union management is often very similar to the mafia.
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Old 5th February 2020, 05:07 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The common human failing of greed. Working for the good of the whole is very difficult in the face of temptation to seek individual advantage. Ultimately it's a problem of human nature, and ordinary workers are just as subject to it as are mighty capitalists.
Are US humans different from those of other countries in any way that makes them unable to organize labor effectively?
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Old 5th February 2020, 05:44 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Are US humans different from those of other countries in any way that makes them unable to organize labor effectively?
I don't think other countries' unions are that great, either. And when the unions themselves are, their effect on the country as a whole isn't. France, for instance, seems to be constantly stricken with strikes.
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Old 5th February 2020, 05:50 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
If you want specific proposols; a constitutional amendment for terms limits for both houses of congress. (Only way you can do it).
I think the eternal fear of not being reelected is behind a lot of the disfunction we see in congress.
Maybe their jobs are too comfy. If they made less a year they might not actually be wedded to the idea of sticking around.
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Old 5th February 2020, 06:28 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Maybe their jobs are too comfy. If they made less a year they might not actually be wedded to the idea of sticking around.
They don't actually get paid that much, compared to the wealth most of them already have before getting into office. People who are already millionaires run for office.
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Old 5th February 2020, 07:18 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I don't think other countries' unions are that great, either. And when the unions themselves are, their effect on the country as a whole isn't. France, for instance, seems to be constantly stricken with strikes.
That's one of the things a union does, yes. It normally leads to better conditions and less stagnant wages.
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Old 5th February 2020, 07:45 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
That's one of the things a union does, yes. It normally leads to better conditions and less stagnant wages.
and coddling of dead weight
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Old 5th February 2020, 07:46 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
A massive resurgence of Unions might help.
Definitely, there's never been any association between unions and corruption. They definitely do not flood politics with money either.

Last edited by ahhell; 5th February 2020 at 08:04 AM.
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Old 5th February 2020, 07:47 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Definitely, there's never been any association between unions and corruption. The definitely do not flood politics with money either.
You're doing it wrong.
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Old 5th February 2020, 07:53 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
You're doing it wrong.
Unions = Cronyism, Corruption, Nepotism, Coddling of Dead Weight and is epitomized in State Government as one example of many. If this is the model of the Leftie vision, it will grind America to a halt.
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Old 5th February 2020, 08:04 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
You're doing it wrong.
Not really. I have no problem with unions they have a valuable function but like every other organization they also often have flaws. The notion that an increase in unions would somehow help root out corruption in the US is just nonsensical and without any sort of basis in reality or history.

It way well be a worthy goal to strengthen unions but it will not have any impact on corruption.
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Old 5th February 2020, 08:11 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Not really. I have no problem with unions they have a valuable function but like every other organization they also often have flaws. The notion that an increase in unions would somehow help root out corruption in the US is just nonsensical and without any sort of basis in reality or history.

It way well be a worthy goal to strengthen unions but it will not have any impact on corruption.
It would give a voice to the people who are the ones actually suffering from the corruption, but I take your point. My divergence into defending unionization as a concept stemmed from JoeMorgue's take on them as an extra boss you have to pay.
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Old 5th February 2020, 08:18 AM   #69
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Term limits. Rely on civil servants without voting privileges for institutional memory. Otherwise, elected federal office is "two and through". I could also go for "three and free" or even "four and the door", but the point is that elected office is a period of service to the country, not a lifetime gravy train.

Also intrigued by elements of sortition.
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Old 5th February 2020, 08:22 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It would give a voice to the people who are the ones actually suffering from the corruption, but I take your point. My divergence into defending unionization as a concept stemmed from JoeMorgue's take on them as an extra boss you have to pay.
The ones being coddled and gaming the system are an inherent part of that Corruption.
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Old 5th February 2020, 09:12 AM   #71
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I'm afraid I'm getting more pessimistic, and suspect that TM is right. Nothing much will ever change. I'm reminded of the history of Easter Island. The Polynesians settled it, and gradually their culture and practices not only denuded the island but impoverished it, as their practice of monumental sculpture, guided by an entrenched priesthood, bankrupted the people. So there was a revolution. The entire power structure changed virtually overnight. The aristocracy was overthrown and the poor enfranchised - tools down in the quarry. But wait, whom did the new holders of power consult and depend on? The same old priesthood. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Did the new power structure prosper? Nope. They stayed poor, and ended up selling most of the island cheap to a charlatan sheep farmer. Left with almost nothing, most of them sailed back to Polynesia.

"Alas, poor country, -
Almost afraid to know itself! It cannot
Be called our mother, but our grave; where nothing
But who knows nothing, is seen to smile; ...."

Shakespeare forever.
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Old 5th February 2020, 09:30 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Term limits. Rely on civil servants without voting privileges for institutional memory. Otherwise, elected federal office is "two and through". I could also go for "three and free" or even "four and the door", but the point is that elected office is a period of service to the country, not a lifetime gravy train.

Also intrigued by elements of sortition.
I am not opposed to this idea, I do worry that there is even more opportunity for corruption or at least as much. If some guy is chose by lottery and has nothing to loose from taking bribes for a few years. Granted, even if that is a real concern, it doesn't seem like its any worse than things now.

One issue with term limits is that in practice, it has generally empowered lobbyists as inexperienced law makers tend to rely on the folks that have been around for years and actually know how to get **** done which is often the lobbyists.

One of the issues with the op is that if you are actually concerned about corruption, the blatantly partisan approach will immediately be rejected by at least 40% of the country if not more. Even if you accept that Dems are inherently more virtuous than Reps, that's just a non-starter from a practical standpoint. The smug certainty so common these days doesn't just turn of the opposite party, it turns of independents, third party types, and even folks in your own party with slightly different views as well. But hey, good luck with that.

Last edited by ahhell; 5th February 2020 at 09:35 AM.
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Old 5th February 2020, 09:35 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Unions = Cronyism, Corruption, Nepotism, Coddling of Dead Weight and is epitomized in State Government as one example of many. If this is the model of the Leftie vision, it will grind America to a halt.
I thought it was "make America great again"?
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Old 5th February 2020, 09:39 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I thought it was "make America great again"?
"MAGA" has nothing to do with Unions. Maybe clarify your point if I'm missing something.
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Old 5th February 2020, 09:44 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
My divergence into defending unionization as a concept stemmed from JoeMorgue's take on them as an extra boss you have to pay.
If I'm a member of a union do I have to pay dues?

If I'm a member of a union does the union have a say in how I do my job on a functional level?

If you answer "yes" to both of those questions I fail to see how my characterization is false.
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Old 5th February 2020, 09:48 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I'm afraid I'm getting more pessimistic, and suspect that TM is right. Nothing much will ever change. I'm reminded of the history of Easter Island. The Polynesians settled it, and gradually their culture and practices not only denuded the island but impoverished it, as their practice of monumental sculpture, guided by an entrenched priesthood, bankrupted the people. So there was a revolution. The entire power structure changed virtually overnight. The aristocracy was overthrown and the poor enfranchised - tools down in the quarry. But wait, whom did the new holders of power consult and depend on? The same old priesthood. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Did the new power structure prosper? Nope. They stayed poor, and ended up selling most of the island cheap to a charlatan sheep farmer. Left with almost nothing, most of them sailed back to Polynesia.

"Alas, poor country, -
Almost afraid to know itself! It cannot
Be called our mother, but our grave; where nothing
But who knows nothing, is seen to smile; ...."

Shakespeare forever.


It's a global thing, to a degree. We're ruled by people who are so used to making things happen, or apparently making things happen, with legislation that they start to think they can affect the actual shape of the world with it.

Witness the EU (I can't remember which body) deciding to ignore all the science and just keep on fishing, or China's desperate attempts to restrict the flow of information about the coronavirus. There aren't going to be anymore fish just because the EU have decided it, and the virus isn't going to spread any slower just because people aren't talking about it.

I'm beginning to think that this will be way causes the end of the world. The last parliament of man, sat on the last beach, watching the very last of the oceans evaporate away, not worried about it at all because they've redefined 'ocean'.


What I'm basically saying is that we've evolved from the 'B Ark' and that's what will end us.
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Old 5th February 2020, 09:49 AM   #77
theprestige
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
If you want specific proposols; a constitutional amendment for terms limits for both houses of congress. (Only way you can do it).
I think you'd have to extend the House terms to 4 years. Reps already have to spend a lot of their term campaigning. Take away the ease of the incumbent advantage seems like it would just make the whole thing unsupportable.
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Old 5th February 2020, 09:50 AM   #78
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I actually heard what I think was a half-joking proposal but it was sort of interesting.

No term limits... but not terms can't be consecutive. You can be President as many times as you want, but never in a row. Kill the "momentum" and "stagnation" problem with incumbents.

Yeah it wouldn't work for tons of practical reason, but it's funny idea.
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Old 5th February 2020, 10:03 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
One issue with term limits is that in practice, it has generally empowered lobbyists as inexperienced law makers tend to rely on the folks that have been around for years and actually know how to get **** done which is often the lobbyists.
One of the cures for that is an unelected upper house, but for some reason the US has done away with that.
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Old 5th February 2020, 10:52 AM   #80
3point14
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I actually heard what I think was a half-joking proposal but it was sort of interesting.

No term limits... but not terms can't be consecutive. You can be President as many times as you want, but never in a row. Kill the "momentum" and "stagnation" problem with incumbents.

Yeah it wouldn't work for tons of practical reason, but it's funny idea.

The trouble with this is that there's always a downside. I think NASA might prefer 25 year terms, because then they could actually get stuff done without the incoming fella cancelling the outgoing fella's pet project.
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