ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 11th February 2020, 01:02 PM   #361
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 20,242
Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
Now all that said... pelosi and co got salty about her clip being posted on social media and now they're making politics out of facebook and twitter not removing it.... false equivalency my ass.
Good point.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 01:04 PM   #362
rockysmith76
Muse
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 854
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Good point.
What a bunch of pinko commie nonsense
rockysmith76 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 01:07 PM   #363
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 41,880
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
And therefore the rest of the description is accurate? "Bullying and public attempts at humiliation, revenge, and genital waving."

Nice try, but you aren't fooling anyone. There is no equivalency here.
Seemed like a list of four different kinds of "public nastiness": Bullying, public attempts at humiliation, revenge, and genital waving. I think Pelosi's behavior during the SOTU addresses ticks at least three of those boxes. I don't think she needs to tick all four to land on the "public nastiness" list. Three out of four is already pretty nasty.

But, baby steps. At least we agree that Pelosi's behavior is in fact accurately described as a public attempt at humiliation. Maybe we also agree that this is a kind of public nastiness.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 01:09 PM   #364
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
 
thaiboxerken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 30,476
I don't agree that calling out Trump's ******** is equivalent at all.
__________________
1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.
thaiboxerken is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 01:13 PM   #365
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 22,894
Is this the new version of "Demand we meet in the middle, them move further away, demand we meet in the middle again, then move further away, wash, rinse, repeat" game?

Break the rules, hurt the innocent, cheat the system, punish the people who's job it is to keep you in check, but when you sit down at the negotiation table demand a clean slate and civility?

Sod that noise.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 02:08 PM   #366
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 41,880
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I don't agree that calling out Trump's ******** is equivalent at all.
But you do agree that Pelosi's clap backs are a public attempt at humiliation.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 02:17 PM   #367
Grizzly Bear
このマスクによっ
 
Grizzly Bear's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 7,862
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Is this the new version of "Demand we meet in the middle, them move further away, demand we meet in the middle again, then move further away, wash, rinse, repeat" game?

Break the rules, hurt the innocent, cheat the system, punish the people who's job it is to keep you in check, but when you sit down at the negotiation table demand a clean slate and civility?

Sod that noise.
If people feel like feeding polarization as an eye for an eye treatment then have at it as long as said people aren't committing violence or anything illegal. However, that will never change the fact that the immature behavior of our politicians is still immature.

But then, I dont see what the point is for debate if that's the standard we adopt as a society.
__________________

Last edited by Grizzly Bear; 11th February 2020 at 02:22 PM.
Grizzly Bear is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 02:22 PM   #368
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 22,894
Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
If people feel like feeding polarization as an eye for an eye treatment then have at it as long as said people aren't committing violence or anything illegal. However, that will never change the fact that the immature behavior of our politicians is still immature.

But then, I dont see what the point is for debate then if that's the standard we adopt as a society
No the standard we should "adopt as a society" is "We should be able to actually make things better without stopping every 3 seconds because the side that wants to make things better can't be perfect."

I'll never understand (well no I perfectly understand but I'm not allowed to say it here) the mentality of people who see one side being outright evil and the opposing side being a little snarky/dramatic and look at the snarky/dramatic side and go "You're the problem. Why are you ruining decorum?"
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 03:22 PM   #369
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 16,311
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Doesn't that also describe Pelosi's clap-backs and page-tearing?
As I noted in the post you partially quote, I was disappointed in Pelosi's page tearing (and clap back too, BTW), but also noted that these responses are a tiny, tiny fraction of Trump's and his supporters'. Trump and his supporters engage in these activities daily, often even hourly, and at intensities 20 or more fold nasty, personal, and vindictive than the two tiny incidents that can be attributed to Pelosi over a span of many years.

As brought up multiple times by others upthread, these attempts to find equivalence are absolutely absurd and embarrassing. It fools no one and even as a pure debating tactic it fails blatantly.

More broadly I remain amazed how any one can defend Trump's and his supporters' disgusting behavior in any way, through false equivalences or otherwise. What this does to us as a nation and as a society will not easily be undone. Trump is degrading us, our morality, what we demand of our leaders, and our strength and unity as a country, at a pace and at an intensity that is unprecedented (unpresidented?). Is his behaviour what we would wish for in our children? Is it what our parents sought to instill in us? Does it call upon the best parts of us as people, or the worse? And it is contagious. It infects his supporters within the electorate. It infects his supporters within Congress. It infects virtually his entire administration; those who somehow remain healthy are kicked out. For those of us not yet infected a failure to call it out for what is will surely cause us all to reap the whirlwind.

Last edited by Giordano; 11th February 2020 at 03:30 PM.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 03:53 PM   #370
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 22,227
The next DP House speaker:
Sideroxylon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 04:02 PM   #371
BrooklynBaby
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,079
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
As I noted in the post you partially quote, I was disappointed in Pelosi's page tearing (and clap back too, BTW), but also noted that these responses are a tiny, tiny fraction of Trump's and his supporters'. Trump and his supporters engage in these activities daily, often even hourly, and at intensities 20 or more fold nasty, personal, and vindictive than the two tiny incidents that can be attributed to Pelosi over a span of many years.

As brought up multiple times by others upthread, these attempts to find equivalence are absolutely absurd and embarrassing. It fools no one and even as a pure debating tactic it fails blatantly.

More broadly I remain amazed how any one can defend Trump's and his supporters' disgusting behavior in any way, through false equivalences or otherwise. What this does to us as a nation and as a society will not easily be undone. Trump is degrading us, our morality, what we demand of our leaders, and our strength and unity as a country, at a pace and at an intensity that is unprecedented (unpresidented?). Is his behaviour what we would wish for in our children? Is it what our parents sought to instill in us? Does it call upon the best parts of us as people, or the worse? And it is contagious. It infects his supporters within the electorate. It infects his supporters within Congress. It infects virtually his entire administration; those who somehow remain healthy are kicked out. For those of us not yet infected a failure to call it out for what is will surely cause us all to reap the whirlwind.

Sounds like someone is reaping the fake news whirlwind.
BrooklynBaby is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 05:25 PM   #372
Elagabalus
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,354
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Is this the new version of "Demand we meet in the middle, them move further away, demand we meet in the middle again, then move further away, wash, rinse, repeat" game?

Break the rules, hurt the innocent, cheat the system, punish the people who's job it is to keep you in check, but when you sit down at the negotiation table demand a clean slate and civility?

Sod that noise.
I see it as, in this post-Trump world, we can't tell a bully that he's being a bully, cuz' that would be mean to the bully.
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 05:59 PM   #373
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State.
Posts: 19,576
Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Pelosi's act was as tacky as his was, so please spare us the offense you suffer from. Decorum was lacking on both sides, and then come the armchair quarterback guffaws of outrage. So small is that safespace.
Traitors aren't good enough for decorum. She could not let Trump's lies stand and let the news cycle talk about just his victory lap. As a patriot, she was obligated to damage Trump. She had to tear up the speech. To not damage Trump when the opportunity presented itself would have been unpatriotic.
__________________
A MAGA hat = a Swastika arm band. A vote for Trump is a vote for treason.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 06:02 PM   #374
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State.
Posts: 19,576
Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
No it's one whiney side trying to vilify the other side and a but of petty and stupid. False equivalence is a side step. This will be the second time today I declare shenanigans.
Look at all the ink and time spent talking about what the speaker did and understand that was time and ink not spent on Trump's speech. She took control of the new cycle around the State of the Union. She damaged Trump and that is the current definition of patriotism.
__________________
A MAGA hat = a Swastika arm band. A vote for Trump is a vote for treason.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 06:43 PM   #375
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 41,880
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Traitors aren't good enough for decorum. She could not let Trump's lies stand and let the news cycle talk about just his victory lap. As a patriot, she was obligated to damage Trump. She had to tear up the speech. To not damage Trump when the opportunity presented itself would have been unpatriotic.
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Look at all the ink and time spent talking about what the speaker did and understand that was time and ink not spent on Trump's speech. She took control of the new cycle around the State of the Union. She damaged Trump and that is the current definition of patriotism.
Cargo cult activism.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 07:27 PM   #376
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 13,897
Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
...pelosi and co got salty about her clip being posted on social media
You omit the key word. The clip was altered.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 07:45 PM   #377
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 20,242
So speaking of the Twitter video that Pelosi wants taken down (or YouFace or wherever it is).

The talking point of the right wing with regard to "the rip" is something along the lines of "How dare she rip of a speech that mentions a Tuskegee Airman, and a crime victim, and a blowhard talk show host, and...." oops. Little fake news there. They never mention Rush in connection with that. So, they get all sanctimonious about the invitees being ripped up.

I sometimes accuse the modern left of being sanctimonious. It's a good thing to see that the right wing hasn't lost its touch in that department. They can be as insincere as anyone, while sounding twice as pompous.

But....that was the theme of the video as well. I watched it. No one could possibly think that it was altered as part of an attempt to deceive. For those who haven't seen it, it shows Pelosi doing the exact same rip edited in to the scene as each honored guest is introduced. If you were familiar with the speech, you knew the rip was after the end of the speech, but even if you weren't, it's obvious that the film has been edited, and deliberately so, to make a point. A stupid, ridiculous, and especially sanctimonious point, but there's no attempt to deceive. There's no way anyone with half a brain would think that it was an actual representation of the event.* Demanding it be taken down isn't nearly as bad as calling her a criminal for ripping the speech, but it's kind of in the same general vicinity.

We have freedom of speech, at least for now, in America. Politicians can rip up other politicians' speeches. Political commentators can use video of other politicians, and even edit it, as they see fit. If there's an attempt to deceive it can get a little dicey, but there wasn't in that video.

*So....what percentage of Trump voters? Uhhh….never mind.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 11th February 2020 at 07:46 PM.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 07:54 PM   #378
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 13,455
Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
.. pelosi and co got salty about her altered and edited clip
FTFY
__________________
"You can't promote principled anti-corruption action without pissing-off corrupt people!" - George Kent on Day one of the Trump Impeachment Hearings
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th February 2020, 07:34 AM   #379
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
 
thaiboxerken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 30,476
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
You omit the key word. The clip was altered.
Since when does that matter to Trumpanzees?
__________________
1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.
thaiboxerken is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th February 2020, 07:58 AM   #380
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 88,373
Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Sounds like someone is reaping the fake news whirlwind.
That's just what I expect someone who only gets their news from fake outlets to say.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th February 2020, 08:07 AM   #381
rockysmith76
Muse
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 854
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Since when does that matter to Trumpanzees?
the two acceptable trigger words are as follows:

1) Libtard
2) Magachud
rockysmith76 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2020, 07:17 PM   #382
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 10,738
No wonder Pelosi ripped up Trump's SOTU speech. It was full of lies:

Quote:
NEW YORK -- Tony Rankins, a formerly homeless, drug-addicted Army veteran, got a standing ovation at the State of the Union after President Donald Trump described how he turned his life around thanks to a construction job at a company using the administration's “Opportunity Zone” tax breaks targeting poor neighborhoods.

But that's not completely true.

Rankins, who indeed moved out of his car and into an apartment since landing a job refurbishing a Nashville hotel two years ago, doesn't work at a site taking advantage of the breaks and never has done so. In fact, he started that job four months before the Treasury Department published its final list of neighborhoods eligible for the breaks. And the hotel where he worked couldn't benefit even now because it's an area that didn't make the cut.
Quote:
The Rankins story was one of several State of the Union introductions that appeared to be overtures to black voters, and the second to be shown to be less than truthful.

Trump dramatically announced that a Philadelphia fourth-grader, Janiyah Davis, would be getting a scholarship that would allow her to transfer from a “failing government" school to a charter school of her choice. But The Philadelphia Inquirer reported that she had already been attending a charter school for months and that students there don't have to pay tuition.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/...-true-68971755
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:36 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.