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Old 5th February 2020, 09:20 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
She didn't make any speech and she introduced him in a neutral manner, she also offered a handshake.
At this point I honestly believe, had he started to offer his hand in return, she planned on pulling her hand away at the last second and shouting, " Psyche!" at him like Lucy with a football.
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Old 5th February 2020, 09:24 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Impeachment was a long and ugly battle with Pelosi leading the Dems in an attempt to undo the election of Trump and losing big. Instead of taking down Trump, it looks like she made Trump more popular and took down Biden, although clearly his gaffe-a-day campaign has certainly contributed. Plus, Trump will ensure the Bidens' corruption gets ample exposure after the vote today. Pelosi will now be trying to cling to power as the Comrade Bernie and The Squad try to drag her down their path, which is the losing path. Betcha she hops on board anyway, hoping for a miracle like she did with impeachment.


My point was that I (and, I assume, others) will be much more willing to dismiss whatever it is you say because you use pointless insults. It makes me think you're a child.

I have no idea what the above has to do with what I said though.


Ho hum.
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Old 5th February 2020, 09:27 AM   #83
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You know the fact that two people now have used the comparison to how a Monarch or Emperor is expected to be treated to explain/excuse away how Trump should be treated is not filling the cockles of my heart with warmness.
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Old 5th February 2020, 09:30 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Regarding the Iowa caucuses, Greg Gutfeld said, "This was the Democrats' first day of school and they showed up in their underwear." LOL.
In 2016, after the Republican caucuses in Iowa, Mitt Romney was declared "the winner." Two weeks later, they changed it, and admitted that Mittens didn't win.

But the democrats haven't reported their results fast enough, and that is an embarrassment.
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Old 5th February 2020, 09:30 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You know the fact that two people now have used the comparison to how a Monarch or Emperor is expected to be treated to explain/excuse away how Trump should be treated is not filling the cockles of my heart with warmness.

Yes, given 'All men are created equal' and the famous American independence, the way some seem compelled to bend in the middle, metaphorically, for Trump seems, well, weird.
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Old 5th February 2020, 09:53 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Probably. And it would probably be silly for them to do so. Just like it's probably silly to gloat that Pelosi's antics are triggering Trump.

Are they really triggering him? How would you know the difference from his usual behavior? Is there any real payoff from this triggering? Would you even really want to trigger him, like, for real?

What's more important to me: We shouldn't ever kiss his ass out of fear.

Something the GOP has yet to learn, unfortunately.
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Old 5th February 2020, 10:00 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You know the fact that two people now have used the comparison to how a Monarch or Emperor is expected to be treated to explain/excuse away how Trump should be treated is not filling the cockles of my heart with warmness.
Well, the Queen of England is a largely ceremonial figurehead.
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Old 5th February 2020, 10:03 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You know the fact that two people now have used the comparison to how a Monarch or Emperor is expected to be treated to explain/excuse away how Trump should be treated is not filling the cockles of my heart with warmness.
The apt portion of the comparison is that the Queen's address to Parliament is the exact analogue of the sotu speech. Although delivered by The Queen, the speech is written by the prime minister. The words on the page being ripped up would be his words, not the Queen's. However, the occasion itself is supposed to have some dignity.

Both Trump and Pelosi took away some of that dignity last night. In my mind, though, Pelosi's act was simply.an acknowledgment of where we are. Trump brought us to that place.

And I might add he was borne to that spot by none other than Rush Limbaugh.
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Old 5th February 2020, 10:05 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
The apt portion of the comparison is that the Queen's address to Parliament is the exact analogue of the sotu speech. Although delivered by The Queen, the speech is written by the prime minister. The words on the page being ripped up would be his words, not the Queen's. However, the occasion itself is supposed to have some dignity.

Both Trump and Pelosi took away some of that dignity last night. In my mind, though, Pelosi's act was simply.an acknowledgment of where we are. Trump brought us to that place.

And I might add he was borne to that spot by none other than Rush Limbaugh.
I don't understand. Paper isn't special. It doesn't have feelings. Other than if the janitor has extra work dealing with the scraps, how does this say anything about dignity?
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Old 5th February 2020, 10:08 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
In 2016, after the Republican caucuses in Iowa, Mitt Romney was declared "the winner." Two weeks later, they changed it, and admitted that Mittens didn't win.

But the democrats haven't reported their results fast enough, and that is an embarrassment.
It's not that Dems didn't report their results fast enough. It's that they carelessly rolled out an untested system that was supposed to make reporting faster and easier, live on national TV, in one of the most public events of the year, and it failed spectacularly.

That's an embarrassment. It's an embarrassment regardless of how well or poorly the Republicans run their own caucus. Playing whataboutism doesn't erase the embarrassment. It just underlines how embarrassing it actually is.
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Old 5th February 2020, 10:13 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
What's more important to me: We shouldn't ever kiss his ass out of fear.

Something the GOP has yet to learn, unfortunately.
Funny thing there. So Rand Paul public kisses ass and plays golf with him but has one of the most anti-trump voting records of any republican, Trump has nothing bad to say about Paul. No real point to this other than to show how shallow Trump is.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
The apt portion of the comparison is that the Queen's address to Parliament is the exact analogue of the sotu speech. Although delivered by The Queen, the speech is written by the prime minister. The words on the page being ripped up would be his words, not the Queen's. However, the occasion itself is supposed to have some dignity.

Both Trump and Pelosi took away some of that dignity last night. In my mind, though, Pelosi's act was simply.an acknowledgment of where we are. Trump brought us to that place.


And I might add he was borne to that spot by none other than Rush Limbaugh.
Which is a good thing in my opinion. The president isn't a king and shouldn't be treated like one, then again, neither should actual kings.


Because there is nowhere better to mention this. Apparently some parkland father was escorted out of the proceeding after shouting something. One of my face book associates posted, "This is how a brave citizen of a fascist state acts!" By which I can only assume she thinks the guy is going to be shot in the back of the head after being tortured?
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Old 5th February 2020, 10:13 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Imagine if Her Majesty The Queen gave her address to Parliament, and while she was still in the chamber an MP, while the camera was on him, ripped up the transcript of the speech. That's basically what happened last night.
Absolutely not. There is no comparison, at all.

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Old 5th February 2020, 10:26 AM   #93
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When I first saw the thread title, before visiting some other sites, I figured "ripping up" was figurative. Wow.
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Old 5th February 2020, 10:33 AM   #94
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Given the number of false claims in the speech and the general consensus that it was more of a campaign speech than a state of the union address, tearing up and throwing it in the garbage seems like an appropriate action. Just the act of giving a bottom feeder like Rush Limbaugh a presidential medal of freedom would IMHO be enough to justify ripping up the speech (actually, I think that walking out when that happened would have been appropriate).
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Old 5th February 2020, 10:41 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
My point was that I (and, I assume, others) will be much more willing to dismiss whatever it is you say because you use pointless insults. It makes me think you're a child.

I have no idea what the above has to do with what I said though.


Ho hum.
Sorry that my post was off-topic. Oops. In any case, these political threads are full of pointless insults directed at Republicans, so I'm just jumping in with both feet, when I have the time.
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Old 5th February 2020, 10:43 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Sorry that my post was off-topic. Oops. In any case, these political threads are full of pointless insults directed at Republicans, so I'm just jumping in with both feet, when I have the time.
And you think that responding in kind is going to improve the quality of the debate?
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Old 5th February 2020, 10:45 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Before all the Partisan nonsense begins, I have to agree. There's still decorum and respect for the offices in question, even if you don't like the people in the role at the time. When you sink so low to become so petty, it's a sad development. Yes, the speech was painful but Pelosi was really no better.


He's a crook, we all know it, she did the right thing.
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Old 5th February 2020, 10:46 AM   #98
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The problem is the people cauterwauling the most about how "civility" has to be evenly distributed and we must stop every other step to make sure the slaps on the wrists are evenly distributed are, almost without fail, pretending like we are starting from equal levels of civility and we're not.

When the core principles of your party are blacks, women, gays, minorities, immigrants, poor people... basically anyone not an old money WASP is subhuman, that science doesn't know what it's talking about, that women don't get to control their bodies, that facts don't exist.... you're already uncivil before the discussion begins.

It's the whole "Debate me you coward! I demand we have a civil discussion about why I shouldn't be able to deny your basic rights and humanity!" sealioning that has been main voice of Conservatives for a while now.

T R ; DR - When your opinions aren't civil, you don't get to demand that the conversation be.
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Old 5th February 2020, 10:47 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Absolutely not. There is no comparison, at all.

Hans
Analogies are always so dangerous. People take one aspect of them and just won't let go.

The head of government writes an annual speech, delivered to the legislature by the head of state amidst much ceremony. To my way of thinking, if two occasions have all of those elements in common, there is at least some basis of comparison between the two events, even if there are also some differences.

At any rate, the real point of the analogy was in response to a question by Darat. I wasn't sure that he grasped that this wasn't just a plain old presidential speech. It is a speech delivered at an event with some extra ceremonial significance.

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Old 5th February 2020, 10:49 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Analogies are always so dangerous.
No. That's a lie. They only became dangerous when they became another argumentative pedantry trap.
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Old 5th February 2020, 10:52 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
People have been talking for the past three years about all the stuff that's being done to get under Trump's skin, and how it's super effective at driving him crazy. I don't think we're actually seeing any payoff from this, though.
People have also been talking for the past three years about all the stuff Trump has done to get under libtards' skins, and how it's super effective at driving them crazy. I also don't think we're seeing any payoff from this, though.

Almost seems like there is an underlying universal language of dickishness at play here...
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Old 5th February 2020, 10:53 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No. That's a lie. They only became dangerous when they became another argumentative pedantry trap.
They never *don't* become an argumentative pedantry trap, though.
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Old 5th February 2020, 10:55 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
They never *don't* become an argumentative pedantry trap, though.
Yes... because pedants start them.

*Clears throat* Ahem.
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Old 5th February 2020, 10:57 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
People have also been talking for the past three years about all the stuff Trump has done to get under libtards' skins, and how it's super effective at driving them crazy. I also don't think we're seeing any payoff from this, though.

Almost seems like there is an underlying universal language of dickishness at play here...
Enh. I've given up trying to get under the skin of progressives. There's no payoff. I'm not perfect, and I do slip from time to time, though.

Do you think there's strategic value in doing petty things to upset Trump inside? Do you see it working?
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Old 5th February 2020, 11:12 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
When the core principles of your party are blacks, women, gays, minorities, immigrants, poor people... basically anyone not an old money WASP is subhuman, that science doesn't know what it's talking about, that women don't get to control their bodies, that facts don't exist.... you're already uncivil before the discussion begins.
I think I see where your problem lies.
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Old 5th February 2020, 11:16 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No. That's a lie.
*sigh*
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Old 5th February 2020, 11:27 AM   #107
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It was a stupid but amusing stunt. I didn't watch any of the speech -- I never do -- but the paper tearing is another iconic, thunder-stealing moment (like last year's mocking clap).
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Old 5th February 2020, 11:52 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Analogies are always so dangerous. People take one aspect of them and just won't let go.

The head of government writes an annual speech, delivered to the legislature by the head of state amidst much ceremony. To my way of thinking, if two occasions have all of those elements in common, there is at least some basis of comparison between the two events, even if there are also some differences.

At any rate, the real point of the analogy was in response to a question by Darat. I wasn't sure that he grasped that this wasn't just a plain old presidential speech. It is a speech delivered at an event with some extra ceremonial significance.
It was indeed. However, the ceremonial significance is different.

The speech of a monarch is in principle non-political. That of an elected president is not.

A monarch is, per definition, not only non-political, but has no official political standpoint.

A president is exactly the opposite.

Therefore, an action against the speech of a monarch is an attack on a constitutional construct.

Whereas an action against the speech of a president is a political statement.

Hans
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Old 5th February 2020, 11:53 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post

When the core principles of your party are blacks, women, gays, minorities, immigrants, poor people... basically anyone not an old money WASP is subhuman, that science doesn't know what it's talking about, that women don't get to control their bodies, that facts don't exist....
They think they're so much better, disgustingly undemocratic elitists!
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Old 5th February 2020, 11:56 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Accepting the president's constitutionally mandated status report is the same as signing the Enabling Act? TDS, ladies and gentlemen.
Aren't the people that keep pretending Trump's actions like giving the SOTU speech are meaningful in any way, the ones with TDS?
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Old 5th February 2020, 11:57 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Quote:
When the core principles of your party are blacks, women, gays, minorities, immigrants, poor people... basically anyone not an old money WASP is subhuman, that science doesn't know what it's talking about, that women don't get to control their bodies, that facts don't exist.... you're already uncivil before the discussion begins.
I think I see where your problem lies.
What, overwhelming honesty?

Lets look at what the Republican party stands for, and what the previous poster claimed:
blacks, women, gays, minorities, immigrants, poor people... basically anyone not an old money WASP is subhuman
Trump called Neonazis 'fine people'. He insinuated Mexicans were rapists. He has rolled back protections for LGBTQ people in the military. And his administration is working to get rid of sexual orientation in anti-discrimination guidelines.

And with Trump doing all that, Trump still maintains strong support in the republican party.

So yes, Republicans may claim they aren't bigots... their recent track record suggests otherwise.

that science doesn't know what it's talking about

Trump called Global warming a hoax. Republican senators regularly deny the existence of human-caused climate change (including the infamous "snowball in the senate" event).

So yes, Republicans are largely anti-science.

that women don't get to control their bodies

A majority of U.S. Republican senators signed a legal brief requesting that Roe v Wade be overturned. Trump attended an anti-abortion rally.

So yes, Republicans don't want women to have control over their bodies.

that facts don't exist

Trump, the republican president, has lied thousands of times, about big issues and small. Yet the majority of the republican voters are apparently OK with that.
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Old 5th February 2020, 11:59 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
These idiotic moments of Pelosi throwing shade at Trump might be more meaningful if she was actually doing anything substantial with her power to resist him.

But yeah, keep clappin' back Pelosi, but don't forget to sign everything Trump asks for too. He's a madman and a tyrant, but don't be late getting him all that military spending he's asking for.
Say what?

Budgets are compromises. You get nowhere trying to hold out.
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Old 5th February 2020, 12:03 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
It's maybe about respect for the "Office", not the person, and some decorum, not petty partisan hypocrisy sorta like "It's okay when WE do it...."

It's not.
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Old 5th February 2020, 12:05 PM   #114
sir drinks-a-lot
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
What, overwhelming honesty?

Lets look at what the Republican party stands for, and what the previous poster claimed:
blacks, women, gays, minorities, immigrants, poor people... basically anyone not an old money WASP is subhuman
Trump called Neonazis 'fine people'. He insinuated Mexicans were rapists. He has rolled back protections for LGBTQ people in the military. And his administration is working to get rid of sexual orientation in anti-discrimination guidelines.

And with Trump doing all that, Trump still maintains strong support in the republican party.

So yes, Republicans may claim they aren't bigots... their recent track record suggests otherwise.

that science doesn't know what it's talking about

Trump called Global warming a hoax. Republican senators regularly deny the existence of human-caused climate change (including the infamous "snowball in the senate" event).

So yes, Republicans are largely anti-science.

that women don't get to control their bodies

A majority of U.S. Republican senators signed a legal brief requesting that Roe v Wade be overturned. Trump attended an anti-abortion rally.

So yes, Republicans don't want women to have control over their bodies.

that facts don't exist

Trump, the republican president, has lied thousands of times, about big issues and small. Yet the majority of the republican voters are apparently OK with that.
OK, now do the Democrats.
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Old 5th February 2020, 12:09 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I have to say, I'm not all that concerned about all the Trumpets pearl clutching over Pelosi tearing up the speech.

It just giving them the vapors, isn't it?


I was trying to put my finger on just what the absurdity was with all this nonsense about 'disrespectful Pelosi'. You nailed it.
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Old 5th February 2020, 12:10 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm not concerned at all. It's like being concerned that the tide is going to go in and out, it's gonna happen.

I'm concerned that there's thinkpieces on the front page CNN about how Pelosi ripping up Trump speech was "effective"* and my social media feeds are full of the "YAS MA QUEEN! THAT SHOWED HIM!" nonsense that SuburbanTurkey mentioned.

*CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/05/media...rip/index.html
Obviously you are concerned.
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Old 5th February 2020, 12:14 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
A. State of Union of Addresses have never been anything more than campaign speeches or a bully pulpit for a president to advance their agenda. We should go back to the President just sending over a letter or maybe switch to something like the British do with questions for the PM parliamentary bitch sessions.

B. Was this any different from the now traditional opposition party rebuttal to the state of the union that has been done for the atleast last 20 years?

C. I have no idea because I realized quite a while ago how stupid the whole thing is. The one good thing about Trump is that maybe some of my fellow citizens will finally realize that we shouldn't give the president so much respect on account of their being the president.
I don't think ranting about the red menace and the rest of Trump's level of propaganda is anything close to traditional.
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Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 5th February 2020 at 01:16 PM.
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Old 5th February 2020, 12:16 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"Ripping up Trump's speech" doesn't take the spotlight off of Trump, it's still about him.

He's a troll, he feeds on negative attention as much as positive.
No, it steals his thunder when anyone isn't talking about him. Talking about Pelosi is not talking about Trump.
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Old 5th February 2020, 12:16 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Say what?

Budgets are compromises. You get nowhere trying to hold out.
People really need to speak up more about the actual weak link, one Chuck Schumer. I don't think I've seen a "leader" that folds like a beach chair like he does, and is so entirely unable to keep his own conference in line.

In contrast, when the leftist Youtube channels were all talking about how they were going to topple Pelosi, I outright laughed and waited for the inevitable ragegasms when she was named Speaker of the House again. I hope she's taken a new leader under her wing, but if you've ever heard of how she operates, she's always deliberate and calm, and has an amazing ability to keep the House dems in line. But folks need to understand that she's no superleftist. As much as right wingers want to say she had a "tantrum"...nah, that was done deliberately to show Dolt 45, and the rest of the US, her lack of respect for his speech (which from what I saw was full of lies and half truths, mostly in short, in short sentences with small words so he could actually say most of it).
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Old 5th February 2020, 12:17 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Impeachment was a long and ugly battle with Pelosi leading the Dems in an attempt to undo the election of Trump
A claim by the way which makes the people who make it look ignorant.

If the impeachment succeeded and Trump was removed, the election would not be 'overturned'. Clinton would not become president. And none of the laws or executive orders Trump signed on to would automatically disappear.

Instead, what would happen is that Pence (a republican) would become president. The Democrats would not have any more power or influence than they did previously.
Quote:
Plus, Trump will ensure the Bidens' corruption gets ample exposure after the vote today.
How could something non-existent get 'ample exposure'?
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