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Old 6th February 2020, 06:19 AM   #201
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TBH the idea that the Obama administration should have intervened in the election and "arrested congress" over a bad candidate to avoid the consequences of an election sounds analagous to what Nicolas Maduro did to Venezuela's National Assembly... How authoritarian..... Also it's a what-if'ism....

But not really part of the Pelosi topic to begin with so.........
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Old 6th February 2020, 07:07 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Beeyon View Post
Pelosi's ripping up her copy of a speech after the conclusion of the speech is grossly dwarfed by a representative yelling "you lie" during the speech. It seems roughly equivalent to a supreme court justice mouthing disagreement during the speech. Hardly worth mentioning.
Dwarfed is a bit to strong but other than that, I agree. The ripping up of the speech was transparent political theater, it really amazes and saddens me that anyone cares(except Trump, I expect that sort of thing from Trump). That anyone on the street thinks it was important in any way is just.....sad.

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Old 6th February 2020, 07:10 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Dwarfed is a bit to strong but other than, I agree. The ripping up of the speech was transparent political theater, it really amazes and saddens me that anyone cares(except Trump, I expect that sort of thing from Trump). That anyone on the street thinks it was important in any way is just.....sad.
Symbols can have great meaning. Pelosi ripping up Trump's speech invokes an image for me in which a Democratic president can do the same to Trump's entire "legacy". It's a hopeful image.
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Old 6th February 2020, 07:22 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I thought the guy that walked out was actually the father of one of the Parkland victims - although he'd likely not be fond of the GOP, he's not necessarily a dem either.

The father of a Parkland victim didn't walk out. He was escorted out by Capital Police after shouting during a mention of the Second Amendment.

Quote:
Fred Guttenberg, the father of a victim in the 2018 mass shooting in Parkland, Florida, was escorted from President Donald Trump's State of the Union address Tuesday night while the President defended the Second Amendment.
Guttenberg, who had attended the State of the Union as a guest of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, told CNN that his outburst came when Trump discussed gun rights.
"Just as we believe in the First Amendment, we also believe in another constitutional right that is under siege all across our country. So long as I am President, I will always protect your Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms," Trump said in his speech.
That's when Guttenberg yelled out in protest something about victims of gun violence, he said, and was promptly escorted out by Capitol Police.
...
"Tonight was a rough night. I disrupted the State Of The Union and was detained because I let my emotions get the best of me. I simply want to be able to deal with the reality of gun violence and not have to listen to the lies about the 2A as happened tonight," Guttenberg said.
"However, I do owe my family and friends an apology. I have tried to conduct myself with dignity throughout this process and I will do better as I pursue gun safety," he added.
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Old 6th February 2020, 07:29 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Symbols can have great meaning. Pelosi ripping up Trump's speech invokes an image for me in which a Democratic president can do the same to Trump's entire "legacy". It's a hopeful image.
And it makes a little sad that you take it to mean anything is my point. Its clearly just pandering to her base, I guess it worked.

Also, if a Dem can rip up his legacy the next Rep can rip up that dems legacy and so on. This should be a fun couple of decades.
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Old 6th February 2020, 07:33 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
And it makes a little sad that you take it to mean anything is my point. Its clearly just pandering to her base, I guess it worked.

Also, if a Dem can rip up his legacy the next Rep can rip up that dems legacy and so on. This should be a fun couple of decades.
Haven't you been paying attention? That's what Trump has been trying to do all along. It's a new precedent.

As for you finding it sad, I don't much care. I think it might be the only thing remembered about that state of the union adress in a couple of years time. As it should be.

ETA: As a side note, if the Democrats have a good election and take many state houses, we might have seen the last GOP president with Trump, as redistricting would remove the unfair advantages they have had over the years. Democratic governors would be more willing to do away with the undemocratic electoral college. About time that party died.
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Old 6th February 2020, 07:37 AM   #207
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First she sarcastically clapped at him.

Then she tore up his speech.

If she's not stopped she might.... hold the door for him but let it go at the last minute! She might park her car just a little over the line of her parking space into his so he can only open the door most of the way and has to squeeze out. She might make rabbit ears behind his head during the next State of the Union! There's no telling where this madwoman might stop! GLORIFY HER ON TWITTER! YAS MY QUEEN!

Meanwhile Trump appoints Ivanka to the Supreme Court and renames Washington DC "Really East Moscow."
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Old 6th February 2020, 07:39 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
First she sarcastically clapped at him.

Then she tore up his speech.

If she's not stopped she might.... hold the door for him but let it go at the last minute! She might park her car just a little over the line of her parking space into his so he can only open the door most of the way and has to squeeze out. She might make rabbit ears behind his head during the next State of the Union! There's no telling where this madwoman might stop! GLORIFY HER ON TWITTER! YAS MY QUEEN!

Meanwhile Trump appoints Ivanka to the Supreme Court and renames Washington DC "Really East Moscow."
The small gestures can have big effects. You don't have to deify her. Just try not to let your cynicism lead you completely astray.

Cynicism was cool in the 90s.
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Old 6th February 2020, 07:41 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
The small gestures can have big effects.
Well yeah but the aren't. Trump's more popular then ever. The only hope the Dems have is some mythical flood of undetectable voters that don't actually exist appearing out of nowhere in November.

The "Slow drip of stain" tactic ISN'T WORKING.

Quote:
You don't have to deify her. Just try not to let your cynicism lead you completely astray.
It's not cynicism. It's being minimally observant at this point.
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Old 6th February 2020, 07:45 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Well yeah but the aren't. Trump's more popular then ever. The only hope the Dems have is some mythical flood of undetectable voters that don't actually exist appearing out of nowhere in November.



It's not cynicism. It's being minimally observant at this point.
Trump might be more popular than ever (never trust a single poll - you should know this by now), but that don't make him popular. He's consistently the least popular president in modern US history.

The "only" hope Democrats - and those who beliveve in democracy - have is for people to not let their cynicism get in the way of making the right choice come november, and to keep fighting if Trump wins by cheating.

ETA: Also, her ripping up the speech has had an effect. People aren't talking about Trump's speech.
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Old 6th February 2020, 08:32 AM   #211
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After one of the previous Trump SOTUs, there was a thread here about the angle Pelosi's hands were at while she was clapping for him. I said at the time that I didn't care what her clap looked like, and used as just the easiest & most convenient example of why the fact that, during the speech, I had read about how she had one of her top assistants reassure a bunch of medical insurance people that she wouldn't dare touch their precious all-important role as money-skimming American-life-sacrificing middle-men.

This is just the angled clap once again. This time a more relevant example would be that she's spent the year (or two?) between SOTUs not only consistently rolling over for the Republicans on every policy/issue (as always before as well), but also going out of her way to make the impeachment as unimpeachy for him as she could.

A cowering Republican servant who puts up a meek limp gesture of pretend resistance once a year is still a cowering Republican servant.
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Old 6th February 2020, 08:35 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Also, her ripping up the speech has had an effect. People aren't talking about Trump's speech.
*Head desk* Yes... they... goddamn... are.

Talking about Pelosi tearing up Trump speech IS STILL TALKING ABOUT TRUMP.

He's still the focus, the point, the Alpha and the Omega.

Everything the Democrats are doing is a reaction to Trump, of course it's still bloody about him.
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Old 6th February 2020, 08:37 AM   #213
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It might also have been to show the open and shameless hypocrisy of the trumpkins -- hundreds of acts of childishness from Dear Führer, no problem! One Democrat stepping out of line? Where's my pitchfork?
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Old 6th February 2020, 08:40 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
It might also have been to show the open and shameless hypocrisy of the trumpkins -- hundreds of acts of childishness from Dear Führer, no problem! One Democrat stepping out of line? Where's my pitchfork?
That's been proven so many times if it was going to matter it would have by now.

Republicans don't care that they are hypocrites. They made peace with it.

"Ah but this will show that the Republicans are hypocrites" is just another thing the Left keep doing over and over and over and over and over and over and over in the hope that the next time it will work.
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Old 6th February 2020, 08:41 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Symbols can have great meaning. Pelosi ripping up Trump's speech invokes an image for me in which a Democratic president can do the same to Trump's entire "legacy". It's a hopeful image.
Actually, the thing that bothers me about this, What exactly is Trump's legacy? Incompetence? Being and *******? Marginal changes to one trade deal? To undo his his legacy, all any president has to do is fill most of the vacant positions he hasn't.

There are aspects that won't be possible to undo. Iran is unlikely to ever sign a treaty with us, but then, we've been a pretty inconsistent ally and enemy in the Mid East for decades.
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Old 6th February 2020, 08:41 AM   #216
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If she were going to do this all along, she should have just not invited him. There is nothing to say it has to be a live speech. Just that the president must provide a state of the union. He still would have had a live press event, but the meltdown and slurring would have been even better.
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Old 6th February 2020, 09:11 AM   #217
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Pelosi said previously that she tore up the speech because it was a "manifesto of mistruths." She is now holding a press conference cataloguing all the lies Trump told at a "reality show" about his record and his policies, particularly including his claim that he is protecting health coverage for pre-existing conditions even as his lawyers are working to eliminate it. She is especially incensed that he used this national ceremony to pump lies straight to the "kitchen table" of 150 million Americans. At least she didn't throw his speech at him.

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Old 6th February 2020, 09:12 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Actually, the thing that bothers me about this, What exactly is Trump's legacy? Incompetence? Being and *******? Marginal changes to one trade deal? To undo his his legacy, all any president has to do is fill most of the vacant positions he hasn't.

There are aspects that won't be possible to undo. Iran is unlikely to ever sign a treaty with us, but then, we've been a pretty inconsistent ally and enemy in the Mid East for decades.
- Putting kids in cages.
- Undermining institutions.
- Extreme nepotism.
- Giving tax-breaks to billionaires.
- Empowering racism.
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Old 6th February 2020, 09:13 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
If she were going to do this all along, she should have just not invited him. There is nothing to say it has to be a live speech. Just that the president must provide a state of the union. He still would have had a live press event, but the meltdown and slurring would have been even better.
There is no evidence that this was planned. She was responding directly to his lies and insults.
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Old 6th February 2020, 09:16 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
There is no evidence that this was planned. She was responding directly to his lies and insults.
She should have very slowly and deliberately put one of those small desktop paper shredders on the desk and shredded it while staring Trump in the eyes, then burned the shredded paper, then feed the ashes to a goat, then wait for the goat to use the bathroom and put caution tape around the goat's crap.

I mean if going to do something pointless but symbolic, go big or go home.
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Old 6th February 2020, 09:21 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
She should have very slowly and deliberately put one of those small desktop paper shredders on the desk and shredded it while staring Trump in the eyes, then burned the shredded paper, then feed the ashes to a goat, then wait for the goat to use the bathroom and put caution tape around the goat's crap.

I mean if going to do something pointless but symbolic, go big or go home.
What do you think she should have done and why?

Also, is it annoying you that there are people like me who found the gesture rather inspiring?
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Old 6th February 2020, 09:21 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
- Putting kids in cages.
- Undermining institutions.
- Extreme nepotism.
- Giving tax-breaks to billionaires.
- Empowering racism.
And how does one undo his SCOTUS appointments, as well.
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Old 6th February 2020, 09:26 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
She should have very slowly and deliberately put one of those small desktop paper shredders on the desk and shredded it while staring Trump in the eyes, then burned the shredded paper, then feed the ashes to a goat, then wait for the goat to use the bathroom and put caution tape around the goat's crap.

I mean if going to do something pointless but symbolic, go big or go home.
Better yet, officiate the SOTU drinking game. Every time Trump tells a blatant lie, she rings a bell to let you know to drink.
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Old 6th February 2020, 09:29 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
And how does one undo his SCOTUS appointments, as well.
FDR had a thought about that
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Old 6th February 2020, 09:31 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
FDR had a thought about that
Expand the court? Because that's totally what I would do.
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Old 6th February 2020, 09:33 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Better yet, officiate the SOTU drinking game. Every time Trump tells a blatant lie, she rings a bell to let you know to drink.
"And in other news the entire nation of America is dead from alcohol poisoning...."
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Old 6th February 2020, 09:39 AM   #227
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Better than sitting through that garbage
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Old 6th February 2020, 09:44 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Yes, how DARE we love our county and hate fascism?
Didn't you just propose a totalitarian one-party state that ruthlessly cracks down on political dissent, as the fix for our current system?
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Old 6th February 2020, 09:46 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
you might as well cite Qanon or Alex Jones. The Daily Mail is rated a "Questionable Source" by reliable fact-checkers.
There's a video clip at the link. It shows her making a small preparatory rip in the papers. You think maybe the Mail deepfaked it to drive clicks?
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Old 6th February 2020, 09:51 AM   #230
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Inspiring and

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
... is it annoying you that there are people like me who found the gesture rather inspiring?
amusing.

Of course, a pie in Benito's face would be a lot funnier, but we'd never agree on the recipe.
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Old 6th February 2020, 09:54 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Symbols can have great meaning. Pelosi ripping up Trump's speech invokes an image for me in which a Democratic president can do the same to Trump's entire "legacy". It's a hopeful image.
It's not really an accurate image, though. Most of a president's "legacy" takes the form of legislation passed by congress, which he takes credit for encouraging. His successor can't just walk into the Oval Office and tear that up. He'd have to go through the same horse-trading, sausage-making process with Congress as his predecessor. It's possible he'd be able to talk them into sweeping reforms, but it's much more likely that he'll only accomplish marginal or incremental changes to the status quo.

The incoming president can of course rescind or countermand his predecessor's executive orders, but EOs have limited authority anyway. And of course he can make adjustments to how the agencies of the executive branch are run, but these things fluctuate from administration to administration anyway.

Bush couldn't "rip up" Clinton's legacy. Obama couldn't "rip up" Bush's legacy. Trump couldn't "rip up" Obama's legacy. Trump's successor won't be able to "rip up" his legacy.

TBH, I'm not sure the idea of a presidential "legacy" as something that can be undone in this way is even a coherent idea.
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Old 6th February 2020, 09:55 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Didn't you just propose a totalitarian one-party state that ruthlessly cracks down on political dissent, as the fix for our current system?
YES, yes he did, by way of violent otherthrow.
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Old 6th February 2020, 09:56 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There's a video clip at the link. It shows her making a small preparatory rip in the papers. You think maybe the Mail deepfaked it to drive clicks?
for every Alex Jones there's a Michael Moore or the head of PETA.

Both sides have loony tunes.
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Old 6th February 2020, 10:01 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
for every Alex Jones there's a Michael Moore or the head of PETA.
I don't know about the head of PETA but can you compare Jones and Moore head to head and say which one you think is loonier?

ETA: Oh, and then we can get in to which one has the attention and approval of a President.

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Old 6th February 2020, 10:03 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
for every Alex Jones there's a Michael Moore or the head of PETA.

Both sides have loony tunes.
Yes, yes, we've heard it before. Fine people on both sides.

But one side puts them into positions of power.
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Old 6th February 2020, 10:10 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Yes, yes, we've heard it before. Fine people on both sides.

But one side puts them into positions of power.
"Now to be fair the Republicans have found a place to put their extremists. Problem is it's in elected office." - Bill Maher.

Yeah the Left and the Right both have idiots and extremists. Hell maybe even in roughly equal numbers I don't know nor care nor have the desire to put the effort into finding out because it doesn't matter.

Republicans in positions of leadership and power are worse then Democrats in positions of leadership and power. This is an unavoidable fact.

The Republicans, at best, don't have an effect way of dealing with or marginalizing their extremists, at worst they actively promote them.

This is why all the stupid pathetic "Fair and balanced talk" is us having to compare what an 3rd rate liberal comedian or anonymous twitter person said... compared to the President.
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Old 6th February 2020, 10:26 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
I don't know about the head of PETA but can you compare Jones and Moore head to head and say which one you think is loonier?
The fact that the comparison had to be this reaching makes it self-defeating, doesn't it .
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Old 6th February 2020, 10:45 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
can you compare Jones and Moore head to head and say which one you think is loonier?
My point is there are Moonbats (old school!) on both sides.
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Old 6th February 2020, 10:46 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Yes, yes, we've heard it before. Fine people on both sides.

But one side puts them into positions of power.
With the help of more than a few Dems who stayed home assuming Hillary had it in the bag. Then, the next morning...
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Old 6th February 2020, 10:47 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
My point is there are Moonbats (old school!) on both sides.
Yeah, and everyone else's point is that Republican should stop putting their moonbats in power.
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