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Old 9th February 2020, 12:57 PM   #321
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So, he doesn't shake her hand, and nothing and no big deal is made of that.
So much Doublethinking anymore.
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Old 9th February 2020, 01:00 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I am really offended that Trump has parroted the "lawbreaking" charge associated with tearing the speech.


What the hell is wrong with this country that such a statement could be taken seriously?



Was it a tacky, classless, thing to do? I think so, but we live in tacky, classless, times. Chanting "four more years" during the middle of the State of the Union address is tacky and classless. Using SOTU as so blatantly a campaign speech is tacky and classless. Trump has lowered the standards of the entire country to a point where the Speaker of the House ripping up the President's speech while standing a few feet away from the President is just an example of fighting back. The fact that the American people rewarded someone who engaged in the kind of name-calling and utterly classless behavior as he did in 2016, and has continued as President, is a sign of our times.

However, that's just style. It's window dressing. We would like dignified behavior instead of childish antics, but when all is said and done, it doesn't matter.

On the other hand, when you start trying to say that things are lawbreaking, when they clearly are not, you get into avoidance of reality. It's just a really bad sign that someone could make such a claim and not be laughed off the airwaves by journalists and commentators that ought to know better. I listen to right wing radio, and not one of them told their callers or listeners that their fantasies of charging Nancy Pelosi with a crime were totally wrong. The more "responsible" ones would give an answer like, "Well, I don't know what the law says....I just know that she's horrible and nasty and no one ought to ever be her friend."

I wish that we, as a society, could at least agree that truth matters.

ETA: And, even worse, there's at least a possibility that they might some day make some sort of comparable charge stick. At that point, we don't have America anymore. I don't think it will come to that. I think our traditions are too strong to disassemble completely. I don't think we'll see the President's political opponents thrown in jail for disrespecting the President.

But never in my life before now has that thought even crossed my mind as anything other than an academic possibility.
To about 40% of US voters, tacky and classless is a plus, not a minus, as long as it's done by you-know-who. Going the high road isn't a winning formula in 2020.
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Old 10th February 2020, 08:51 AM   #323
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She quietly ripped up the speech and placed it to the side of her desk. She did not throw a tantrum, or slam the papers down, or anything uncouth. The "outrage" about her tearing up the paper is silly. It's not like she yelled "you lie!" during his speech, which is acceptable behavior when a Republican does it.
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Old 10th February 2020, 10:25 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I am really offended that Trump has parroted the "lawbreaking" charge associated with tearing the speech.


What the hell is wrong with this country that such a statement could be taken seriously?



Was it a tacky, classless, thing to do? I think so, but we live in tacky, classless, times. Chanting "four more years" during the middle of the State of the Union address is tacky and classless. Using SOTU as so blatantly a campaign speech is tacky and classless. Trump has lowered the standards of the entire country to a point where the Speaker of the House ripping up the President's speech while standing a few feet away from the President is just an example of fighting back. The fact that the American people rewarded someone who engaged in the kind of name-calling and utterly classless behavior as he did in 2016, and has continued as President, is a sign of our times.

However, that's just style. It's window dressing. We would like dignified behavior instead of childish antics, but when all is said and done, it doesn't matter.

On the other hand, when you start trying to say that things are lawbreaking, when they clearly are not, you get into avoidance of reality. It's just a really bad sign that someone could make such a claim and not be laughed off the airwaves by journalists and commentators that ought to know better. I listen to right wing radio, and not one of them told their callers or listeners that their fantasies of charging Nancy Pelosi with a crime were totally wrong. The more "responsible" ones would give an answer like, "Well, I don't know what the law says....I just know that she's horrible and nasty and no one ought to ever be her friend."

I wish that we, as a society, could at least agree that truth matters.

ETA: And, even worse, there's at least a possibility that they might some day make some sort of comparable charge stick. At that point, we don't have America anymore. I don't think it will come to that. I think our traditions are too strong to disassemble completely. I don't think we'll see the President's political opponents thrown in jail for disrespecting the President.

But never in my life before now has that thought even crossed my mind as anything other than an academic possibility.
Pelosi's act was as tacky as his was, so please spare us the offense you suffer from. Decorum was lacking on both sides, and then come the armchair quarterback guffaws of outrage. So small is that safespace.
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Old 10th February 2020, 10:26 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
She quietly ripped up the speech and placed it to the side of her desk. She did not throw a tantrum, or slam the papers down, or anything uncouth. The "outrage" about her tearing up the paper is silly. It's not like she yelled "you lie!" during his speech, which is acceptable behavior when a Republican does it.
It was classless and tacky but still I somehow manage to hold back my own outrage, mainly because the whole thing is petty and stupid.
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Old 10th February 2020, 10:39 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
It was classless and tacky but still I somehow manage to hold back my own outrage, mainly because the whole thing is petty and stupid.
I agree, Trump's speech was petty and stupid.
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Old 10th February 2020, 10:40 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Pelosi's act was as tacky as his was, so please spare us the offense you suffer from. Decorum was lacking on both sides, and then come the armchair quarterback guffaws of outrage. So small is that safespace.
No, this is a false equivalence.
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Old 10th February 2020, 10:50 AM   #328
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I'm was annoyed at the act in the same why I'm annoyed at any person who's is a position of absolute neutered powerlessness does something symbolic because they can't bare the thought of doing nothing, but beyond that it was a homeopathic nothingburger.

Honestly at this point Nancy Pelosi is Susan Collins. The distinction between "pretends they are going to do something and realizes they can't" and "pretends they are going to do something and then decides not to" is pretty slim and doesn't make that much of a functional difference. Nancy Pelosi tour up his speech, Susan Collins was "very concerned" and Trump still got his way, as was inevitable from the moment the conflict started.

I friend of mine on Facebook went off on a rant about some nice things said about Romney from liberals, claiming he shouldn't get credit because what he did was purely symbolic. I told him if that was true for him it was true of all the Democrats as well.
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Old 10th February 2020, 10:53 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
No, this is a false equivalence.
No it's one whiney side trying to vilify the other side and a but of petty and stupid. False equivalence is a side step. This will be the second time today I declare shenanigans.
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Old 10th February 2020, 11:00 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Pelosi's act was as tacky as his was, so please spare us the offense you suffer from. Decorum was lacking on both sides, and then come the armchair quarterback guffaws of outrage. So small is that safespace.
I don't see them the same.

The President said she committed a crime by ripping up some paper, and that lie is being repeated over and over in the right wing media. That's bad. The only possible way to say that it isn't very bad would be to say that his comments ought not to be taken seriously. That's a different sort of bad.
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Old 10th February 2020, 03:27 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I don't see them the same.

The President said she committed a crime by ripping up some paper, and that lie is being repeated over and over in the right wing media. That's bad. The only possible way to say that it isn't very bad would be to say that his comments ought not to be taken seriously. That's a different sort of bad.
To clarify, there's a big difference between saying someone did something bad, and saying someone is a criminal.

And it gets a whole lot worse if saying the accusation involves something that clearly is not a crime.
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Old 10th February 2020, 03:57 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Pelosi's act was as tacky as his was, so please spare us the offense you suffer from. Decorum was lacking on both sides, and then come the armchair quarterback guffaws of outrage. So small is that safespace.
If you gave a **** about decorum you wouldn’t be a Trump supporter.
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Old 10th February 2020, 04:04 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
If you gave a **** about decorum you wouldn’t be a Trump supporter.
To be clear, I don't give a **** about decorum, when it comes to the SOTU address. The whole thing is theater. The president turning it into a campaign speech is theater. Congress inviting him to give what will inevitably be a campaign speech is theater. Trump not shaking Pelosi's hand is theater. Pelosi doing her little claps and rips is theater.

The people celebrating the rips and the people outraged by the rips are essentially the same.
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Old 10th February 2020, 04:15 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
To be clear, I don't give a **** about decorum, when it comes to the SOTU address. The whole thing is theater. The president turning it into a campaign speech is theater. Congress inviting him to give what will inevitably be a campaign speech is theater. Trump not shaking Pelosi's hand is theater. Pelosi doing her little claps and rips is theater.

The people celebrating the rips and the people outraged by the rips are essentially the same.
There is a ******** equivalence going on here. Donald Trump’s body of work means he absolutely deserves the contempt. This is a ludicrous presidency. Pelosi does not. Theatre? Maybe but she has taken substantial action in impeaching this mother ******.

The people applauding the rips are people appalled by Trumps actions and behaviour. Those showing outrage at the rips are Fox News talking heads.

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Old 10th February 2020, 04:23 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
To be clear, I don't give a **** about decorum, when it comes to the SOTU address. The whole thing is theater. The president turning it into a campaign speech is theater. Congress inviting him to give what will inevitably be a campaign speech is theater. Trump not shaking Pelosi's hand is theater. Pelosi doing her little claps and rips is theater.

The people celebrating the rips and the people outraged by the rips are essentially the same.
That's completely unfair. Some of us saw the rips, didn't think anything of it, then saw the outrage the rips produced and decided the rips were good.
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Old 10th February 2020, 04:35 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I am really offended that Trump has parroted the "lawbreaking" charge associated with tearing the speech.


What the hell is wrong with this country that such a statement could be taken seriously?



Was it a tacky, classless, thing to do? I think so, but we live in tacky, classless, times. Chanting "four more years" during the middle of the State of the Union address is tacky and classless. Using SOTU as so blatantly a campaign speech is tacky and classless. Trump has lowered the standards of the entire country to a point where the Speaker of the House ripping up the President's speech while standing a few feet away from the President is just an example of fighting back. The fact that the American people rewarded someone who engaged in the kind of name-calling and utterly classless behavior as he did in 2016, and has continued as President, is a sign of our times.

However, that's just style. It's window dressing. We would like dignified behavior instead of childish antics, but when all is said and done, it doesn't matter.

On the other hand, when you start trying to say that things are lawbreaking, when they clearly are not, you get into avoidance of reality. It's just a really bad sign that someone could make such a claim and not be laughed off the airwaves by journalists and commentators that ought to know better. I listen to right wing radio, and not one of them told their callers or listeners that their fantasies of charging Nancy Pelosi with a crime were totally wrong. The more "responsible" ones would give an answer like, "Well, I don't know what the law says....I just know that she's horrible and nasty and no one ought to ever be her friend."

I wish that we, as a society, could at least agree that truth matters.

ETA: And, even worse, there's at least a possibility that they might some day make some sort of comparable charge stick. At that point, we don't have America anymore. I don't think it will come to that. I think our traditions are too strong to disassemble completely. I don't think we'll see the President's political opponents thrown in jail for disrespecting the President.

But never in my life before now has that thought even crossed my mind as anything other than an academic possibility.
A frontiersman do everything spirit (egalitarian views of knowledge and expertise) combined with culture wars in which white Christian males feeling increasingly disenfranchised lash out with anti intellectualism/ anti academia, wanting to burn it all down.
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Old 10th February 2020, 06:00 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
If you gave a **** about decorum you wouldn’t be a Trump supporter.
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Old 10th February 2020, 06:28 PM   #338
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Theater is not good government. How much can be achieved and how effectively can we solve our country’s problems with a strategy of theatrical excesses rather than good government?

Frankly I am a bit disappointed that Pelosi descended into theater too, although by comparison she’s a thousand times behind Trump and the Republicans in quantity and nastiness. It does confirm to me how Trump manages to taint and bring out the worst in almost every person he touches.
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Old 10th February 2020, 06:33 PM   #339
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The more I think about it the more I realize that Trump and the Republicans are not really performing theater at all; it is simply public nastiness. Bullying and public attempts at humiliation, revenge, and genital waving.

I like theater; I hope I will never find the Trump/Republican “show” entertaining. It’s like enjoying watching a wealthy bully urinate on a victim.

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Old 10th February 2020, 08:12 PM   #340
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Trump does something inexcusable.

The Trumpers defend it until sane people get justifably angry about it and say something "mean."

The Trumpers commence pearl clutching.

Wash, rinse, repeat.
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Old 10th February 2020, 08:48 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
A frontiersman do everything spirit (egalitarian views of knowledge and expertise) combined with culture wars in which white Christian males feeling increasingly disenfranchised lash out with anti intellectualism/ anti academia, wanting to burn it all down.
I rather like the frontiersman spirit. Not enough of it these days, although plenty of frontiersmen wannabes.

I suppose the anti-intellectualism does play a role, though. People seem to judge something based on who said it rather than apply a little bit of critical thinking on the subject.

It's just that this particular claim, that ripping a piece of paper is a crime, is not just so incredibly and obviously wrong, it's also downright un-American that it pains me that so many people could repeat it.

The rip itself was pretty undecorous, and I'm sad that we have sunk that low, but we have, and at least it's possible that the Democrats won't cede the low ground to the Republcans any more. That low ground is where most of the voters live, apparently.

As for the State of the Union speech itself, Trump's transgressions during it were not totally unforgivable. It's always a campaign speech, and he only made it somewhat more obvious than usual. On the other hand "four more years" was something I found much worse, even than the rip. I disliked it more not just because of the lack of decorum, but that a group of people had to do it together. They all ought to have known better. They might as well have been chanting "Four legs good".

ETA: And at a Trump rally in New Hampshire, the crowd changed "Lock her up". This is really awful.

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Old 10th February 2020, 09:33 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Trump does something inexcusable.

The Trumpers defend it until sane people get justifably angry about it and say something "mean."

The Trumpers commence pearl clutching.

Wash, rinse, repeat.
I don’t think they wash or rinse. They just get dirtier and dirtier.
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Old 10th February 2020, 10:56 PM   #343
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I think Nancy's act of tearing up Trump's SOTU address was pure gold - a brilliant piece of political drama - an absolute master-stroke by the master political tactician. She knew exactly what she was doing, and she knew exactly why she was doing it, and it was nothing to do with disrespecting Trump (although if it did, that is just an added bonus). Just think about it for a few moments... what was everyone talking about on Fox News, on Hannity, on MSNBC, on NBC, on CNN after she did it? Trump's speech? Nope, they were talking about the fact that she very publicly tore it up.

Nancy has drawn the public's and the media's attention away from Trump's address, and directly to her. She has done something to Trump that he hates more than anything else, taken the attention away from him. We all know Trump is a malignant narcissist, and if there is one thing that narcissists cannot bear, its not being the centre of attention. She knows exactly how to push his buttons - she has done so, and he has responded in predictable fashion.

I hope this act by Nancy marks the end of the "take the high road" tactics the Democrats have been using. Its long past time to start really, seriously provoking Trump. She should use her caucus to poke the bear; repeatedly. He will spit the dummy, I guarantee it.
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Old 11th February 2020, 02:33 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I rather like the frontiersman spirit. Not enough of it these days, although plenty of frontiersmen wannabes.

I suppose the anti-intellectualism does play a role, though. People seem to judge something based on who said it rather than apply a little bit of critical thinking on the subject.

It's just that this particular claim, that ripping a piece of paper is a crime, is not just so incredibly and obviously wrong, it's also downright un-American that it pains me that so many people could repeat it.

The rip itself was pretty undecorous, and I'm sad that we have sunk that low, but we have, and at least it's possible that the Democrats won't cede the low ground to the Republcans any more. That low ground is where most of the voters live, apparently.

As for the State of the Union speech itself, Trump's transgressions during it were not totally unforgivable. It's always a campaign speech, and he only made it somewhat more obvious than usual. On the other hand "four more years" was something I found much worse, even than the rip. I disliked it more not just because of the lack of decorum, but that a group of people had to do it together. They all ought to have known better. They might as well have been chanting "Four legs good".

ETA: And at a Trump rally in New Hampshire, the crowd changed "Lock her up". This is really awful.
I like it too, having grown up in a remote “frontier” town. The can do anything attitude and ingenuity while making use with whatever is at hand is admirable. I am just wondering if it has fed into this egalitarian view of knowledge and scorn of expertise that we are seeing.
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Old 11th February 2020, 05:37 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
He will spit the dummy, I guarantee it.
Spit the dummy? Is that some sort of New Zealand saying?


But I agree with your post. I'm not happy to agree with it, but I do.
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Old 11th February 2020, 06:34 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Spit the dummy? Is that some sort of New Zealand saying?
"Dummy" is a term for a baby's pacifier in a lot of English speaking countries, so "Spit the Dummy Out" is a common idiom for "Preparing to have a temper tantrum" like a baby is about to do when it spits out its pacifier.
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Old 11th February 2020, 06:47 AM   #347
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Getting a raving maniac to maniacally rave is not an achievement.
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Old 11th February 2020, 09:59 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"Dummy" is a term for a baby's pacifier in a lot of English speaking countries, so "Spit the Dummy Out" is a common idiom for "Preparing to have a temper tantrum" like a baby is about to do when it spits out its pacifier.
Being American I only heard that expression later in my life. But it is brilliant!
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Old 11th February 2020, 10:03 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I don't see them the same.

The President said she committed a crime by ripping up some paper, and that lie is being repeated over and over in the right wing media. That's bad. The only possible way to say that it isn't very bad would be to say that his comments ought not to be taken seriously. That's a different sort of bad.
They are taken seriously and make a great talking point, welcome to modern conservative thinking. Really this is a winning strategy and has been, why is this suddenly something that won't work? Pay attention this has been working for years for Trump and will continue to do so.
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Old 11th February 2020, 10:06 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I rather like the frontiersman spirit. Not enough of it these days, although plenty of frontiersmen wannabes.
Works well for Russians in the Ukraine, that is the frontier spirit to conquer the unbroken backs of others you love. Conquest is its own reward and we need more bloody conquest in world these days, that is the spirit we have lost.
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Old 11th February 2020, 10:19 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So you guys heard the new nonsense?

Rep. Matt Gaetz (Republican Representative for Florida's 1st District) has filed an ethics complaint and publically called for an investigation into Pelosi tearing up Trump's speech.

Why? Because it violates 18 USC 2017, preventing the destruction of government records.
Maybe she should hit Trump back with a complaint about him breaking the law by altering an official weather report.
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Old 11th February 2020, 10:29 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
If you gave a **** about decorum you wouldn’t be a Trump supporter.
Thirded.
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Old 11th February 2020, 10:36 AM   #353
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As I've said before.

If your opinion is wrong, vile, racist, sexist, hateful, etc you don't then get to whine that the discussion about it isn't "civil."

There's a lot of people out there right now who think we are somehow obligated (or indeed even can) discuss their evil in neutral terms.

Again I'm done with both the "Come back here and debate me you coward! Why won't you have a civil discussion with me about my opinion the people children in cages is no big deal!" and the "*Gasp* All I said was that blacks are subhuman. Can't a person even have an opinion without being personally attacked?" games.
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Old 11th February 2020, 10:59 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Maybe she should hit Trump back with a complaint about him breaking the law by altering an official weather report.
I like it.
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Old 11th February 2020, 12:32 PM   #355
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Speaking from the perspective of both sides. If you support trump, or if you just dont really view pelosi favorably to begin with, her ripping the speech up is disrespectful and feels like she's being a sour puss.

If you vehemently dislike Trump or have a generally dis favorable view of him pelosi doing that is going to be received positively in accordance.

It's a sign of the times we live in. And NO it wasnt Trump that started it. He just accelerated the process.

Now all that said... pelosi and co got salty about her clip being posted on social media and now they're making politics out of facebook and twitter not removing it.... false equivalency my ass.

For the record... I take no issue for anyone that wants to disagree on the magnitude of the blame game. There's merit to a discussion and I'm in no way shouting folks down for seeing things differently. But that doesnt change the fact that the party spats makes the governing body of this country look like a basket of idiots and tantrum makers. Just my opinion
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Old 11th February 2020, 12:39 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
The more I think about it the more I realize that Trump and the Republicans are not really performing theater at all; it is simply public nastiness. Bullying and public attempts at humiliation, revenge, and genital waving.
Doesn't that also describe Pelosi's clap-backs and page-tearing?
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Old 11th February 2020, 12:44 PM   #357
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Also, the short and polite version of the point I'm making is you can rationally consider how each side is spinning the issue without having to necessarily endorse their behavior or embellish their intentions.

I havent given much stock in Pelosi's act at the SOTU speech. Her and Trump have a personal relationship that has been in the dumps since he took office. I know Trumps personality already, maybe pelosi thinks reciprocating is effective. Maybe it could be. Maybe people agree.to reciprocating. Regardless, I'm hardly shocked at how awkward them being next to eachother in that space must have been.

Doesnt make the spat look any less childish.
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Old 11th February 2020, 12:56 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Doesn't that also describe Pelosi's clap-backs and page-tearing?
Nope.
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.
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Old 11th February 2020, 12:58 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Nope.
I dunno. "Public attempts at humiliation" seems like a pretty apt description to me.
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Old 11th February 2020, 01:00 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I dunno. "Public attempts at humiliation" seems like a pretty apt description to me.
And therefore the rest of the description is accurate? "Bullying and public attempts at humiliation, revenge, and genital waving."

Nice try, but you aren't fooling anyone. There is no equivalency here.
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