ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 8th February 2020, 01:15 PM   #121
sir drinks-a-lot
Illuminator
 
sir drinks-a-lot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cole Valley, CA
Posts: 3,729
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You and the Trumpers seem to confuse "negative ads" with "accurately reporting facts."
1) Are you suggesting the the "negative ads" should be built on lies?

2) I'd never accuse any of the media outlets I mentioned of accurately reposting facts!
__________________
I drink to the general joy o' th' whole table. --William Shakespeare
sir drinks-a-lot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2020, 01:21 PM   #122
Safe-Keeper
Philosopher
 
Safe-Keeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 8,731
Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
There's no need for that with CNN, the NY Times, MSNBC, and the Hollywood glitterati. If they ran negative ads on Trump, they'd only be interrupting the already non-stop TDS programming.
Yeah, imagine that the media tells everyone every time Trump does something wrong. Snitches .
__________________
"He's like a drunk being given a sobriety test by the police after being pulled over. Just as a drunk can't walk a straight line, Trump can't think in a straight line. He's all over the place."
--Stacyhs
Safe-Keeper is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2020, 01:22 PM   #123
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,119
The economy is not strong.

A strong economy doesn't need warp speed deficit spending.

A strong economy doesn't need an almost $30 billion bailout of an industry, especially one that doesn't need paid back.

A strong economy doesn't need the Fed to constantly cut rates.

A strong economy doesn't have 44% of the workforce making about $18000 (barring massive deflation) with costs of living all raising much faster than income.

It's smoke and mirrors. The Dow is up, unemployment is down, but more than 20% of households have negative wealth.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2020, 02:20 PM   #124
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 25,220
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You and the Trumpers seem to confuse "negative ads" with "accurately reporting facts."
Alas, these day's it's likely true. The two are indistinguishable, just as truth is these days indistinguishable from partisan bias.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2020, 02:26 PM   #125
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State.
Posts: 19,574
Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
1) Are you suggesting the the "negative ads" should be built on lies?

2) I'd never accuse any of the media outlets I mentioned of accurately reposting facts!
I'm not opposed to using dishonesty to remove Trump. I just don't think it's necessary.
__________________
A MAGA hat = a Swastika arm band. A vote for Trump is a vote for treason.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2020, 03:11 PM   #126
sir drinks-a-lot
Illuminator
 
sir drinks-a-lot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cole Valley, CA
Posts: 3,729
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Only a nut job would refer to reporting the actual facts about Trump and his administration as Trump Derangement Syndrome. That you don't care about the facts doesn't make them less factual.
Wow, that got emotional really quick.
__________________
I drink to the general joy o' th' whole table. --William Shakespeare
sir drinks-a-lot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2020, 03:36 PM   #127
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 10,711
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
The mind reels at why there is not a Dem PAC running constant negative adds on Trump all over social and traditional media.
Bloomberg is doing that, at least. I'm no kind of strategy guru but when I first heard his ads I thought, well that's a relief, someone is finally calling Trump out on health care.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2020, 03:44 PM   #128
Tero
Graduate Poster
 
Tero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: North American prairie
Posts: 1,761
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I disagree with the OP. I think that unless the Democratic Party manage to find a charismatic and popular candidate, President Trump has a very high probability of being re-elected.

He can absolutely count on 40-45% support from his base and GOP party faithful. Enough of the rest are content enough economically to vote for him, won't bother to vote, or will vote for a third party candidate to see him home comfortably.

The only people who care about President Trump's behaviour are already implacably opposed to him. For many people it's either not a big deal or even a reason to support him.
It comes down to those battleground states and the electoral college. He's lost Wiscosin and Michigan, unless a huge number are erased from the voter register. He may lose PA if Biden runs.
What states is he going to add to last time?
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lztwUmnT0...oral%2Bmap.jpg

None!
Tero is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2020, 03:50 PM   #129
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 10,711
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
What we are looking for is people who were not galvanised to vote against Trump in 2016 but will be galvanised to vote against him in November
There will be less complacency this year, I hope. There would almost have to be less. HuffPo put Hillary's odds at either 99-1 or 98-2 a couple of days before the election. I don't think I've been back to that website since.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2020, 03:52 PM   #130
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,159
Originally Posted by Tero View Post
He's lost Wiscosin and Michigan, unless a huge number are erased from the voter register.
вызов принят
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2020, 03:55 PM   #131
Dread Pirate Roberts
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 106
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
The economy is not strong.

A strong economy doesn't need warp speed deficit spending.

A strong economy doesn't need an almost $30 billion bailout of an industry, especially one that doesn't need paid back.

A strong economy doesn't need the Fed to constantly cut rates.

A strong economy doesn't have 44% of the workforce making about $18000 (barring massive deflation) with costs of living all raising much faster than income.

It's smoke and mirrors. The Dow is up, unemployment is down, but more than 20% of households have negative wealth.
Do you think it's a message that can be made? Trump boasts about the best economy of all time. We have:

1. GDP growth rates that are now the post 2008 norm after the tax cut stimulus is gone
2. Unemployment at 3.5%. It was 4.1% when he took office, so that also is a trend line from before 2017.
3. The sectors he flat out lied to - farmers, manufacturing, coal, steel - are actually worse off than before he took office. More money has been spent on farm subsidies - for a crisis he manufactured to boot! - than was spent on the auto bailout.

It's great that the stock market is soaring. However, as the top 1% own 50% of stocks and the top 10% own 92%, how many Americans actually benefit? And he's always going on about ridiculously exaggerated 401k jumps, but only 35% of Americans even have a 401k.

How has the economy treated my fellow ISFers? I'm in Las Vegas, and have a good job I would say. I'm getting the same annual salary increases I was getting before the inauguration. From my standpoint, things really haven't changed, other than I can tell that IT infrastructure costs have risen over the past 3 years faster than normal. I'm fortunate our health care premiums have held steady and I don't need health care much lately (knock on wood!)

So, can facts like these be turned into an effective rebuttal to "It's the economy, stupid?". Maybe a Bloomberg carpet bombing of the airwaves!
Dread Pirate Roberts is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2020, 04:06 PM   #132
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 24,249
Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Wow, that got emotional really quick.
No, it got factual.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2020, 05:44 PM   #133
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 23,625
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
A recession will take time to impact working people. I'm not sure there is enough time left before the election for that pain to translate to the electorate.
Yep, I agree that's quite possible, because it wouldn't even show up until June.

Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
The Dems need to be on a negative message of Trump is crazy, Trump is stupid, Trump is corrupt, Trump is a bigot.
Really?

Is there a single voter left in USA who doesn't know all of that for certain?

The Senate impeachment "trial" showed they just do not care. I'd say Trump voters are exactly the same - they couldn't give a damn.

Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
They should be on a positive message of, MEDICARE and MEDICADE if you need it, cheaper college (not free) and rewrite the tax cut to put money in the hands of consumers.
Since it's not actually policy until someone gets picked, it's a bit hard to say those things isn't it?

Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
The mind reels at why there is not a Dem PAC running constant negative adds on Trump all over social and traditional media.
Maybe they agree with my comment above.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2020, 07:25 PM   #134
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State.
Posts: 19,574
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Yep, I agree that's quite possible, because it wouldn't even show up until June.



Really?

Is there a single voter left in USA who doesn't know all of that for certain?

The Senate impeachment "trial" showed they just do not care. I'd say Trump voters are exactly the same - they couldn't give a damn.



Since it's not actually policy until someone gets picked, it's a bit hard to say those things isn't it?



Maybe they agree with my comment above.
Knowing something and it becoming that other person's identity in your head every time you here the name "Trump" aren't the same thing. You want to be so on message and so repetitive, that when people hear the name Trump, they think, "he's just too stupid to be president". Or, Trump, "He's bat **** crazy."

If they just don't like Trump they might still vote for him. If the first though is "too stupid to be president," not so much.
__________________
A MAGA hat = a Swastika arm band. A vote for Trump is a vote for treason.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2020, 09:10 PM   #135
Crazy Chainsaw
Philosopher
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,343
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Knowing something and it becoming that other person's identity in your head every time you here the name "Trump" aren't the same thing. You want to be so on message and so repetitive, that when people hear the name Trump, they think, "he's just too stupid to be president". Or, Trump, "He's bat **** crazy."

If they just don't like Trump they might still vote for him. If the first though is "too stupid to be president," not so much.
Exactly a crazy moron Conspiracy theorist from infowars supported by a fraud media!
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2020, 09:11 PM   #136
Allen773
Graduate Poster
 
Allen773's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Cali Four Neea
Posts: 1,103
I've been thinking he's going to win re-election for a little while now and the past week has provided me more signs of him doing just that.
Allen773 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th February 2020, 08:43 AM   #137
Solitaire
Neoclinus blanchardi
 
Solitaire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,304
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
As long as America keeps living a long way beyond its means, a recession
is always going to be just the next bit of bad financial news away. The USA
has a total deficit of almost US$23 trillion, rising by US$1 million every 48
seconds (US$1.8 billion per day!)

https://www.worldometers.info/us-debt-clock/

This is unsustainable in the long term.

Actually they have an option. Simply print money and pay off the debt.
Back in the 1970's governments furiously payed down unsustainable debt
with inflation rates greater than twenty percent per year. Using the Inflation
Calculator, a $2.50 small cup of coffee from Starbucks cost only ten cents
one hundred year ago.

A similar factor of inflation applied today makes the $25 trillion dollar debt
feel like only a $1 trillion dollar debt. As a side effect minimum wage works
will have six figure salaries and live in multimillion dollar one room shacks,
but that small cup of coffee will cost $62.50 approximately.

I'm not expecting stagflation or a recession for at least another dozen years.
The 2008 Great Recession really knocked the wind out of the economy. When
you factor in inflation, transaction costs, and taxes, did the average investor
in the stock market make any money since January of 2000?

Probably not.



As I said in another thread, Trump does not care about the economy.
He has, unlike any candidate in the past over one billion dollars to spend
on getting re-elected. I'm expecting him to win despite driving away five
percent of regular Republican Party voters who aren't, shall we say, 'Whiter
Then White.'

I expect he will not win the popular vote by about two million votes,
but win in the electoral college a bit better than he did in 2016. I think
he'll pick up a percent more independent voters this time around.
__________________
Be very careful what you put in your head, because you will never get it out again. — Phineas Gage
Solitaire is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th February 2020, 12:32 PM   #138
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 13,449
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
The economy is not strong.

A strong economy doesn't need warp speed deficit spending.

A strong economy doesn't need an almost $30 billion bailout of an industry, especially one that doesn't need paid back.

A strong economy doesn't need the Fed to constantly cut rates.

A strong economy doesn't have 44% of the workforce making about $18000 (barring massive deflation) with costs of living all raising much faster than income.

It's smoke and mirrors. The Dow is up, unemployment is down, but more than 20% of households have negative wealth.
A strong economy doesn't have a deficit of US$23 trillion

A strong economy doesn't owe US$1.1 trillion to a political enemy
__________________
"You can't promote principled anti-corruption action without pissing-off corrupt people!" - George Kent on Day one of the Trump Impeachment Hearings
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th February 2020, 12:45 PM   #139
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 25,018
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Is there a single voter left in USA who doesn't know all of that for certain?
Of his supporters, I'd say about half openly approve and half are in denial.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th February 2020, 01:16 PM   #140
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,119
Originally Posted by Dread Pirate Roberts View Post
Do you think it's a message that can be made? Trump boasts about the best economy of all time. We have:

1. GDP growth rates that are now the post 2008 norm after the tax cut stimulus is gone
2. Unemployment at 3.5%. It was 4.1% when he took office, so that also is a trend line from before 2017.
3. The sectors he flat out lied to - farmers, manufacturing, coal, steel - are actually worse off than before he took office. More money has been spent on farm subsidies - for a crisis he manufactured to boot! - than was spent on the auto bailout.

It's great that the stock market is soaring. However, as the top 1% own 50% of stocks and the top 10% own 92%, how many Americans actually benefit? And he's always going on about ridiculously exaggerated 401k jumps, but only 35% of Americans even have a 401k.

How has the economy treated my fellow ISFers? I'm in Las Vegas, and have a good job I would say. I'm getting the same annual salary increases I was getting before the inauguration. From my standpoint, things really haven't changed, other than I can tell that IT infrastructure costs have risen over the past 3 years faster than normal. I'm fortunate our health care premiums have held steady and I don't need health care much lately (knock on wood!)

So, can facts like these be turned into an effective rebuttal to "It's the economy, stupid?". Maybe a Bloomberg carpet bombing of the airwaves!
I do think it can be made effectively. The people who think Trump is an ******* but think he's right know he lies about things they know about. It's like reading a book, being an expert in orbital mechanics, and thinking the orbital mechanics in it were crap but the agriculture parts were right, then talking to a farmer and finding out they thought the agriculture parts for crap, but the orbital mechanics were right!

People know they don't own stocks, but the also buy things so they know costs have increased. Point out the reason for some of those increase. They know they're working hard. They know things aren't actually better for them. Like you point out, most don't actually have investments for the DOW to matter to. Farmers know they are worse off now, but they still think they're going to BECOME better off. Point out how fast suicides have increased. That small farms were bought up by money given to big agriculture by Trump to snatch up the farms of their friends and family who killed themselves or went bankrupt. They know these things happened. Just point them to the oligarch who benefited from their pain, and will prevent them from reaping any of the benefits in the future.

You can't teach people who don't want to learn, so you leverage what they already know. And the numbers support the argument that the economy isn't good, and it is certainly not good for the overwhelming majority of people. Make the capitalist argument about why this is bad.

Something related I quickly wrote elsewhere: Corruption on this level is HORRID for the economy. Make the capitalist argument against it. Trump has been trying to make it legal for companies to pay bribes (in 'other countries' that for some reason don't make it back to the US? lmao) on top of all his other insanely corrupt acts. We ALREADY had a problem with companies and industries 'rent seeking' in that they found they could make more profits off lobbying and propaganda than by, you know, competing in the marketplace to provide the better produce/service. It quickly becomes not who innovates best or works hardest, but who owns the correct oligarch. This makes US companies LESS competitive globally because they become more and more incompetent at their actual jobs. Russia has oil and gas as it's number one industry, an nothing else is close. But even with it being their major industry, they have oil and gas they are INCAPABLE of getting to, because their industry has evolved to be best at catering to oligarchs and not be best at extracting oil and gas. They have to call in AMERICANS to get at their own gas! The US cannot be allowed to go further down that same road.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th February 2020, 10:13 PM   #141
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 13,449
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Something related I quickly wrote elsewhere: Corruption on this level is HORRID for the economy. Make the capitalist argument against it. Trump has been trying to make it legal for companies to pay bribes (in 'other countries' that for some reason don't make it back to the US? lmao) on top of all his other insanely corrupt acts. We ALREADY had a problem with companies and industries 'rent seeking' in that they found they could make more profits off lobbying and propaganda than by, you know, competing in the marketplace to provide the better produce/service. It quickly becomes not who innovates best or works hardest, but who owns the correct oligarch. This makes US companies LESS competitive globally because they become more and more incompetent at their actual jobs. Russia has oil and gas as it's number one industry, an nothing else is close. But even with it being their major industry, they have oil and gas they are INCAPABLE of getting to, because their industry has evolved to be best at catering to oligarchs and not be best at extracting oil and gas. They have to call in AMERICANS to get at their own gas! The US cannot be allowed to go further down that same road.

That is EXACTLY the Russian model, and Putin owns all the correct Oligarchs... no wonder Trump loves him so much, he's a Putin wannabe


Side note: tyr-13, have you read Rachel Maddow's "Blowout"? If not (and if the stuff you posted here interests you as much as it appears to) then you should. I am about half way through it, and it is stunning - utterly mind blowing. Anyone who has been following Trump's troubles over the last four years will see a number of familiar names in there.
__________________
"You can't promote principled anti-corruption action without pissing-off corrupt people!" - George Kent on Day one of the Trump Impeachment Hearings
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !

Last edited by smartcooky; 9th February 2020 at 10:15 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2020, 02:48 PM   #142
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,119
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
That is EXACTLY the Russian model, and Putin owns all the correct Oligarchs... no wonder Trump loves him so much, he's a Putin wannabe


Side note: tyr-13, have you read Rachel Maddow's "Blowout"? If not (and if the stuff you posted here interests you as much as it appears to) then you should. I am about half way through it, and it is stunning - utterly mind blowing. Anyone who has been following Trump's troubles over the last four years will see a number of familiar names in there.
I haven't yet, but I've thought about getting the audio book.

My interest and knowledge has been mostly to incidental information found while doing my tariff and other tasks at work. The stuff on Rusal is just infuriating.

She's mentioned some of that on her show right? The podcast version is one of the things I'll half listen to at work while doing the data entry and number crunching parts.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2020, 06:01 PM   #143
Roger Ramjets
Illuminator
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,332
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
The US cannot be allowed to go further down that same road.
Cannot? Those of us who hate America disagree. In fact we insist on it!

The further it slides the more we can blame all our 'misfortune' on liberals and brown people - the real enemy! And no matter how bad it gets, we can be happy knowing that it wasn't our fault.

Trump has been nothing but good for Americans. We no longer have to hide our racism, bigotry and misogyny. We don't have to pretend to believe in fairness. We'll tolerate or even encourage corruption provided some of it comes our way. We don't want freedom or democracy if it means we have to share, and we shouldn't have to consider facts when making decisions. We love Trump because lying, bullying, grifting and gaslighting without consequence is exactly how we want to live our own lives!

I'm calling 2020 for Trump because I'm Deplorable, and there are enough of us real Americans to ensure that he gets reelected (with a little help from a corrupt government or two).
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2020, 06:52 PM   #144
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 13,449
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
I haven't yet, but I've thought about getting the audio book.

My interest and knowledge has been mostly to incidental information found while doing my tariff and other tasks at work. The stuff on Rusal is just infuriating.

She's mentioned some of that on her show right? The podcast version is one of the things I'll half listen to at work while doing the data entry and number crunching parts.
Well trust me, you think the Rusal stuff is infuriating... as they say on those cheesy TV ads... "but wait! There's more!" The name "Dmytro Firtash" features prominently as well.... I'm guessing you already know about that guy!

Remember also that the Rusal guy, Oleg Deripaska has had the sanctions against him lifted by the Senate, at the behest of Trump and Moscow Mitch, then all of a sudden, Deripaska is investing millions (200 if them to be exact) in a defunct Kentucky aluminium smelter.

Of course, Moscow Mitch claims this is all just a big, happy coincidence... yeah, right, sure, anything you say Tovarishch!
__________________
"You can't promote principled anti-corruption action without pissing-off corrupt people!" - George Kent on Day one of the Trump Impeachment Hearings
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !

Last edited by smartcooky; 10th February 2020 at 06:56 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2020, 07:24 PM   #145
applecorped
Rotten to the Core
 
applecorped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 19,874
lol
__________________
All You Need Is Love.
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 03:37 AM   #146
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 19,365
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
As long as America keeps living a long way beyond its means, a recession is always going to be just the next bit of bad financial news away. The USA has a total deficit of almost US$23 trillion, rising by US$1 million every 48 seconds (US$1.8 billion per day!)

https://www.worldometers.info/us-debt-clock/

This is unsustainable in the long term.
Not really. Most Government debt doesn't work the way it does in SimCity where you have a loan for 10 years and then have to repay it all at once. When it comes to debt then it is the amount that is required to service the debt that is important, not the size of the debt itself.

For instance, if you have a $1,000,000 debt, and you have to pay it back at a rate of $100 a week, if your income is $1000 a week then you will have less trouble doing that then is your income is $110 a week.

In the case of countries, then the formulas need to look at GDP and total Government Revenue, and as long as the % of GDP is low enough, and Government Revenue is far exceeds the cost of servicing their debt, then even massive debts can be sustained for as long as it takes to pay them back, and if GDP continues to grow, thus increasing Government Revenues, then debt can be raised.

I'd also note that a lot of US debt is also in US Saving Bonds, which while they do pay out entirely after a time, as long as the economy has been growing at about 3.5% the bonds will be paid for by the time that they mature in 20-30 years.

The issue with US debt is what would happen if its economy went into recession long term, or at least stopped growing that a rate required to continue to service the debt, then the debt it carries would be an issue as it failed to be able to serve it, but as long as it is growing, increasing debt is not an issue. This scenario does seem unlikely though, their economy would have to shrink a huge amount.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 08:15 AM   #147
ahhell
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,064
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Cannot? Those of us who hate America disagree. In fact we insist on it!

The further it slides the more we can blame all our 'misfortune' on liberals and brown people - the real enemy! And no matter how bad it gets, we can be happy knowing that it wasn't our fault.

Trump has been nothing but good for Americans. We no longer have to hide our racism, bigotry and misogyny. We don't have to pretend to believe in fairness. We'll tolerate or even encourage corruption provided some of it comes our way. We don't want freedom or democracy if it means we have to share, and we shouldn't have to consider facts when making decisions. We love Trump because lying, bullying, grifting and gaslighting without consequence is exactly how we want to live our own lives!

I'm calling 2020 for Trump because I'm Deplorable, and there are enough of us real Americans to ensure that he gets reelected (with a little help from a corrupt government or two).
Nice, I'm not quite sure who you're making fun of. I suppose I could figure it out if I actually paid attention to who posts what on this forum.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 08:18 AM   #148
rockysmith76
Muse
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 829
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I'm not opposed to using dishonesty to remove Trump. I just don't think it's necessary.
Then you're stooping to the same level.
rockysmith76 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 10:12 AM   #149
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,119
Remembered another one, that is kinda wonky, but a strong economy doesn't have gold trading 50% higher than platinum.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 01:11 PM   #150
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 11,020
It seems clear that the Trump/GOP goal for November is to make the Election vulnerable.
__________________
“Impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”-Sen. Lindsey Graham
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 01:29 PM   #151
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 45,662
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Remembered another one, that is kinda wonky, but a strong economy doesn't have gold trading 50% higher than platinum.
https://www.macrotrends.net/2541/pla...vs-gold-prices

I don't see much correlation between the ratio of their prices and how the economy is doing within the past 35 years. For example, the ratio spiked heavily in platinum's favor during the 2008 recession, but then crashed back to around 1 in 2009.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 01:31 PM   #152
ahhell
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,064
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Remembered another one, that is kinda wonky, but a strong economy doesn't have gold trading 50% higher than platinum.
Why not?
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 01:39 PM   #153
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 45,662
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Why not?
I think the idea is that when investors panic, they flee to gold, not platinum, and so drive up gold prices faster than platinum. But that doesn't really seem to work. The ratio of gold to platinum, if it ever was a useful economic indicator, doesn't really seem to be one now. I don't know if that's because platinum prices are more volatile now (they have their own economic drivers) or for some other reason, but the data from the past 35 years (see my above link) doesn't support using the ratio as an indicator.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 02:27 PM   #154
ahhell
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,064
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It seems clear that the Trump/GOP goal for November is to make the Election vulnerable.
Seems like both parties have more to fear from themselves than from the other. They both really seem intent on self destruction these days. If they succeed that will probably be a good thing.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 04:30 PM   #155
The_Animus
Illuminator
 
The_Animus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,150
Trump and Republicans figure they can do anything they want.

For the 2020 election I'm concerned that they will:

1. Attempt to rig the election using tactics we've already seen them use such as:
  • Throwing legitimate voters off the rolls
  • Reducing polling locations or hours in democratic leaning areas
  • Refusing to do audits or deleting data when there are sketchy results from electronic voting machines with no paper trails

And if that isn't sufficient to "win" the election then they will...

2. Claim the election was rigged against them from fraudulent votes and simply refuse to give up power.

And quite frankly if they do either of these I don't see anything being done about it. They'll get away with it just like every other corrupt immoral thing they've done.

Seriously who or what is going to stop them?

Last edited by The_Animus; 11th February 2020 at 04:32 PM.
The_Animus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 06:47 PM   #156
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,119
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Why not?
Platinum is slightly more common than gold, but harder to process, and it's 'natural' price from only extraction factors should be more than a bit higher than gold.

But, their uses diverge greatly. Gold is seen as a safe harbor when markets are getting bad. It has little industrial use (there is about a dime of gold in an entire motherboard).

Platinum's primary uses are in industry as catalysts, especially in automotive. Gold being so high up at the same time platinum is down indicates both worry and industry slow down. Keep in mind that there are now 10 year auto loans just so people can afford to own a car. People are becoming too poor to be a viable market for not just housing and education, but now automotive.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 07:26 PM   #157
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 53,596
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Platinum's primary uses are in industry as catalysts, especially in automotive.
Platinum fun fact! Platinum is one ingredient in the chemotherapy drug Cisplatin (hence the name). It's an effective drug, but one of the more unusual side effects is that it can cause deafness: apparently platinum in the human body tends to accumulate in the interior mechanisms of the ears.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 09:11 PM   #158
Solitaire
Neoclinus blanchardi
 
Solitaire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,304
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Seems like both parties have more to fear from themselves than from the other.
They both really seem intent on self destruction these days.
If they succeed that will probably be a good thing.

Be careful for what you wish for...

I'm predicting the Libertarian Party will grow to over seven million votes
in 2020 election, above the statistical significance level of five percent making
them a minor party. (And maybe in a dozen years the Green Party will too.)

So which one do you want to be president Dan Behrman or Vermin Supreme.
__________________
Be very careful what you put in your head, because you will never get it out again. — Phineas Gage
Solitaire is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 10:51 PM   #159
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 25,018
Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Trump and Republicans figure they can do anything they want.

For the 2020 election I'm concerned that they will:

1. Attempt to rig the election using tactics we've already seen them use such as:
  • Throwing legitimate voters off the rolls
  • Reducing polling locations or hours in democratic leaning areas
  • Refusing to do audits or deleting data when there are sketchy results from electronic voting machines with no paper trails

And if that isn't sufficient to "win" the election then they will...

2. Claim the election was rigged against them from fraudulent votes and simply refuse to give up power.

And quite frankly if they do either of these I don't see anything being done about it. They'll get away with it just like every other corrupt immoral thing they've done.

Seriously who or what is going to stop them?
I agree except that they won't have to simply refuse to give up power. They'll use the courts.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th February 2020, 05:48 AM   #160
applecorped
Rotten to the Core
 
applecorped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 19,874
Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Trump and Republicans figure they can do anything they want.

For the 2020 election I'm concerned that they will:

1. Attempt to rig the election using tactics we've already seen them use such as:
  • Throwing legitimate voters off the rolls
  • Reducing polling locations or hours in democratic leaning areas
  • Refusing to do audits or deleting data when there are sketchy results from electronic voting machines with no paper trails

And if that isn't sufficient to "win" the election then they will...

2. Claim the election was rigged against them from fraudulent votes and simply refuse to give up power.

And quite frankly if they do either of these I don't see anything being done about it. They'll get away with it just like every other corrupt immoral thing they've done.

Seriously who or what is going to stop them?
blame Hillary
__________________
All You Need Is Love.
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:17 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.