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Tags 2020 elections , Bernie Sanders , presidential candidates , socialism

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Old 13th February 2020, 08:21 PM   #41
Baylor
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
* the end of ICE and CBP.

A lot of people want ICE gone, they are a solution looking for a problem and causing more issues than they solve. Customs and Border Patrol aren't going anywhere.
ICE has plenty of problems to deal with please stop reading garbage.
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Old 13th February 2020, 08:25 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Those are white countries.
So was Nazi Germany and look what happened to that.

Oh dear, here, have a tissue.
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Old 13th February 2020, 08:51 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Those are white countries.
We are less white than the US is (71.76% vs 73%) in our little Social Democracy down here, and yet we're listed in the top Ten Countries for Freedom, Lack of Corruption, Democracy, and Global Peace. Might be something wrong with your ideas considering all things.
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Old 13th February 2020, 08:52 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Bernie's been in government for a few decades now. He seems like a nice guy who's never been able to do much with his ideas.

But happens if he wins? What happens if all of his ideas suddenly are backed by major power?

Millenials don't remember the evils of Socialism but many Gen Xers and Boomers do. We remember the Gulags, the Berlin Wall, the Khmer Rouge, the barbed wire, the purges, the brutally put down revolutions.

Bernie's supporters say "oh no, that wouldn't happen here, this time it will be peaceful, freedom-loving Socialism".

Well I've read the agenda of the DSA, which Bernie is a member of. They want to destroy capitalism, end national borders. They want to put the means of production and industry and wealth into the hands of "The People", which means mass-nationalization of industry, corporations, banks, the engines of commerce.

Every national manifestation of Socialism that the world has ever seen, has been an economic disaster, a human rights disaster, or both. Do we really want to give it another shot????
GenXers remember the Gulags, the Berlin Wall, the Khmer Rouge, the barbed wire, the purges, the brutally put down revolutions and are kind of ... meh... Nice attempt to shoehorn the GenX'rs into Boomers, Boomer!
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:03 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
ICE has plenty of problems to deal with please stop reading garbage.
ICE was formed by taking jobs away from other departments that really didn't need to have them taken away along with the Break up of INS. USCIS, BCP and the others can just as easily do those jobs just as they did for decades before 9/11.

A lot of what ICE was formed to do has already been removed back to the earlier agencies, with both the Federal Protective Service and TSA being removed. Much of the rest of it can easily be deal with by ISCIS and BCP.

About the only thing that they have outside of all that that is their Terrorist Joint Task Force work, so give the immigration enforcement over to Border and Customs and Citizen and Immigration, and reform ICE into a pure Terrorist Task Force.
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:04 PM   #46
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The only thing I fear from Bernie is that he might win the nomination and lose the election. Which is what I fear about every single one of the candidates.

But admittedly, I fear that about Bernie much more than I do the other candidates. You can point out all the polls you want. Bernie in the General election will be facing an avalanche of money from rich people terrified and I question that he can compete with that.
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:11 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
We are less white than the US is (71.76% vs 73%) in our little Social Democracy down here, and yet we're listed in the top Ten Countries for Freedom, Lack of Corruption, Democracy, and Global Peace. Might be something wrong with your ideas considering all things.
Your numbers are laughably wrong.
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:13 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Bernie's been in government for a few decades now. He seems like a nice guy who's never been able to do much with his ideas.

But happens if he wins? What happens if all of his ideas suddenly are backed by major power?

Millenials don't remember the evils of Socialism but many Gen Xers and Boomers do. We remember the Gulags, the Berlin Wall, the Khmer Rouge, the barbed wire, the purges, the brutally put down revolutions.

Bernie's supporters say "oh no, that wouldn't happen here, this time it will be peaceful, freedom-loving Socialism".

Well I've read the agenda of the DSA, which Bernie is a member of. They want to destroy capitalism, end national borders. They want to put the means of production and industry and wealth into the hands of "The People", which means mass-nationalization of industry, corporations, banks, the engines of commerce.

Every national manifestation of Socialism that the world has ever seen, has been an economic disaster, a human rights disaster, or both. Do we really want to give it another shot????
Europe is alive and well and highly Socialistic.
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:13 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
ICE was formed by taking jobs away from other departments that really didn't need to have them taken away along with the Break up of INS. USCIS, BCP and the others can just as easily do those jobs just as they did for decades before 9/11.

A lot of what ICE was formed to do has already been removed back to the earlier agencies, with both the Federal Protective Service and TSA being removed. Much of the rest of it can easily be deal with by ISCIS and BCP.

About the only thing that they have outside of all that that is their Terrorist Joint Task Force work, so give the immigration enforcement over to Border and Customs and Citizen and Immigration, and reform ICE into a pure Terrorist Task Force.
Nice try at pretending you're knowledgeable but no, ICE has plenty of problems to deal with besides terrorism.
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:13 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
We had a ******* civil war and lost hundreds of thousands of Americans, all over the issue of slavery.
Yeah you had a war because half of the country didn't want to give it up, even after they lost.

Quote:
Slavery ended 155 years ago and the idea we should now pay reparations to the great-great-great grandchildren of slaves is absurd and will do NOTHING but stoke racial animosity and tensions.
Yeah, Slavery was ended, and then the US Government, State Government, County Governments, all have spent that 155 years oppressing the sons and daughters, and the grandsons and granddaughters, and the great grandsons and great granddaughters, and the great, great grandsons and great, great granddaughters, and the great, great, great grandsons and great, great, great granddaughters of those Slaves. Of have you so quickly forgotten things such as Jim Crow and Ferguson?

As to the racial animosity and tensions, any increase in those only comes from people that already think that Black Americans are second class citizens already, you know, like those whose parents, grandparents, great great grandparents, and great great great grandparents were the ones supporting and benefiting from all those slavery and anti-black laws that were designed to keep the blacks in their place in the first place.
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:14 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Nice try at pretending you're knowledgeable but no, ICE has plenty of problems to deal with besides terrorism.
Feel free to name some that can't be handled by BCP or USCIS or other agency that already does similar things?
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Last edited by PhantomWolf; 13th February 2020 at 09:19 PM.
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:16 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
ICE has plenty of problems to deal with please stop reading garbage.
No, the American people have an ICE problem to deal with...
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:20 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Feel free to name some that can't be handled by BCP or USCIS or other agency that already does similar things?
Law enforcement
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:26 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Its funny how so many people get "social democracy" confused with Socialism.
....
You get that Bernie calls himself a Democratic Socialist, and has run -- and been elected and re-elected -- on that platform all his career, right? Would you feel better if he just called himself a Social Democrat?
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:33 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
We had a ******* civil war and lost hundreds of thousands of Americans, all over the issue of slavery.

Slavery ended 155 years ago and the idea we should now pay reparations to the great-great-great grandchildren of slaves is absurd and will do NOTHING but stoke racial animosity and tensions.
The idea that slavery ended in the US 155 years ago is laughable.

What followed the emancipation for 100 of those years was in many ways worse. African Americans were paid less and deprived of opportunities on a nationwide scale and not just in the South. In the South in particular, lots of laws were passed that created a de facto slavery. Such as vagrancy laws where you could be arrested if you didn't have money and then have to work to pay your board for the jail cell.

Things didn't really start to get better until WW2 and has slowly gotten better.

I doubt reparations will ever be paid. That said, I absolutely believe they are owed.
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:34 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Law enforcement
You understand that CBP is a law enforcement agency, right, with almost 50,000 officers? ICE didn't even exist before 2002.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._C...der_Protection
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:38 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You understand that CBP is a law enforcement agency, right, with almost 50,000 officers? ICE didn't even exist before 2002.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._C...der_Protection
Wow, thanks. Skimming Wikipedia articles, didn't think anyone here thought of doing that.
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:39 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The idea that slavery ended in the US 155 years ago is laughable.

What followed the emancipation for 100 of those years was in many ways worse. African Americans were paid less and deprived of opportunities on a nationwide scale and not just in the South.
.....
Let's not go overboard. America has a terrible civil rights record, but nothing is worse than slavery.
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:39 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The idea that slavery ended in the US 155 years ago is laughable.

What followed the emancipation for 100 of those years was in many ways worse. African Americans were paid less and deprived of opportunities on a nationwide scale and not just in the South. In the South in particular, lots of laws were passed that created a de facto slavery. Such as vagrancy laws where you could be arrested if you didn't have money and then have to work to pay your board for the jail cell.

Things didn't really start to get better until WW2 and has slowly gotten better.

I doubt reparations will ever be paid. That said, I absolutely believe they are owed.
Show me a living black slave from before the 14th Amendment and I agree they should be paid.
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:40 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Wow, thanks. Skimming Wikipedia articles, didn't think anyone here thought of doing that.
And yet it seems to have escaped you.
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:43 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
And yet it seems to have escaped you.
I'm sure you really believe this.
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:45 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Law enforcement
You are saying that there are no other agencies in the US that are capable of handling law enforcement?
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:46 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Show me a living black slave from before the 14th Amendment and I agree they should be paid.
What about the living people that had to suffer through Jim Crow laws created by those that weren't happy at losing slavery?
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:47 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Show me a living black slave from before the 14th Amendment and I agree they should be paid.
You obviously, didn't read my post.
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:50 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You are saying that there are no other agencies in the US that are capable of handling law enforcement?
Not the laws ICE is tasked with enforcing.
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:55 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I suggest that you have Socialism and Communism confused. Try looking at the top 10 countries on these lists and compare your fears with their Socialistic policies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrup...ceptions_Index
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index


ETA: For those that can't be bothered looking at the links...

Five countries make all three lists as being in the Top Ten (11 for freedom since the last two have the same score) them being:

Norway
Sweden
New Zealand
Finland
Denmark

Six Countries make two of the Ten Ten for the lists, being:

Ireland
Canada
Australia
Switzerland
The Netherlands
Luxembourg

And four make it into the Top Ten on one list:

Iceland
Singapore
Germany
Uruguay

I'm pretty sure that despite their Socialistic policies, that none of these countries is a Communist hellhole.

ETA2: just for fun here is another list ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Peace_Index just cause adding this one makes New Zealand the only country to appear in the top ten of all the lists.
It is the fruits of capitalism that give these countries the capital they need to enable social spending and provide social safety nets. Social spending is not Socialism.

As far as the OP, I like this article likening Bernie to Ron Paul
https://thebulwark.com/bernie-sanders-is-ron-paul-2-0/
Quote:
Of course, itís easy to be against things in politics. ďNoĒ is almost always a safe vote. Especially when you arenít responsible for what happens when the banks go under, or the military is defunded, or the terrorists arenít stopped. Itís not that I disagree with Sanders and Paul on all of their positions, so much as the fact that as political gadflies, neither was ever held responsible for any of the consequences of their ideas. Thatís the difference between being a performative back bencher and and a practicing legislator.
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:56 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Not the laws ICE is tasked with enforcing.
Which comes back to the question. What do they do that is so different that other well established agencies could not do it because they aren't doing something similar already or can't be given to one of the other Immigration and Border Agencies?
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:58 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
It is the fruits of capitalism that give these countries the capital they need to enable social spending and provide social safety nets. Social spending is not Socialism.

As far as the OP, I like this article likening Bernie to Ron Paul
https://thebulwark.com/bernie-sanders-is-ron-paul-2-0/
I guess then that there should be no issues with UHC, Fees Free Education, and other social spending that Bernie and other Dems want to have in place then, because it's not Socialism.
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Old 13th February 2020, 10:03 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
]What do they do that is so different that other well established agencies could not do it because they aren't doing something similar already or can't be given to one of the other Immigration and Border Agencies?
What?!?!?
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Old 13th February 2020, 10:09 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
What?!?!?
It's a rather simply question, but I'm guessing that you don't have an answer beyond "But they kick out the brown people!"
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Old 13th February 2020, 10:13 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
It's a rather simply question, but I'm guessing that you don't have an answer beyond "But they kick out the brown people!"
"What do they do that is so different that other well established agencies could not do it because they aren't doing something similar already or can't be given to one of the other Immigration and Border Agencies?" is not "a rather simply question."
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Old 13th February 2020, 10:24 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I guess then that there should be no issues with UHC, Fees Free Education, and other social spending that Bernie and other Dems want to have in place then, because it's not Socialism.
I wouldn't call any of those things socialism.
ETA:
I'd call Finland a capitalist paradise
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/07/o...apitalism.html

Last edited by portlandatheist; 13th February 2020 at 10:26 PM.
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Old 13th February 2020, 10:24 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
"What do they do that is so different that other well established agencies could not do it because they aren't doing something similar already or can't be given to one of the other Immigration and Border Agencies?" is not "a rather simply question."
You were the one that claimed that they were dealing with plenty of problems, so it should be simple for you to specify what those problem are and why they can't be dealt with by other agencies.

Here let me help you.

They deal with drugs being brought in and also People Trafficking. There's two problems.

However both the BCP and DEA also deal with Drugs coming into the country, so why do you need ICE to deal with it too? The FBI and BCP also deal with people trafficking, so again, why do you need ICE to do so.

So really, what problems is it solving that other agencies aren't already doing, or can't be handed off to one of the other Immigration Agencies? This should be easy for you, but instead you are floundering, hard.
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Old 13th February 2020, 10:27 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
I wouldn't call any of those things socialism.
I guess Bernie better give up his socialist name badge then
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Old 13th February 2020, 10:30 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Your numbers are laughably wrong.
Missed this...

2017 US American Community Survey Data

One Race: White - 73%

2018 New Zealand Census

Ethnic Group: European - 71.76%

Yeah, laughable.
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Old 13th February 2020, 10:53 PM   #76
portlandatheist
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I guess Bernie better give up his socialist name badge then
It would be fantastic if he did. It's stupid. It isn't like he is calling for seizing the means of production.
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Old 13th February 2020, 11:01 PM   #77
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Yes, we should fear Bernie. He's been unsuccessful at getting any of his ideas passed into law thus far. He's been in the majority party in the Senate and still never made any headway. As president, his ideas don't look like they will ever get past the 60 vote threshold in the Senate. Oh, and the electorate doesn't want free college and government health insurance.

With all respect to Elizabeth Warren, this is not the election for big ideas. This is the election for pragmatic ideas that can get enough support in the Senate to pass.

Also, seriously, do you look at Sanders and think that if the senior watch officer in the Situation Room and the military officer who carries the Football wakes him up at 0200 because he's got 9 minutes to make decisions on which hang the future of civilization, he's your guy? It disturbs me that we don't first consider fitness to control of our nuclear arsenal before we worry about health care.
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Last edited by Craig4; 13th February 2020 at 11:02 PM.
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Old 13th February 2020, 11:24 PM   #78
PhantomWolf
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Yes, we should fear Bernie. He's been unsuccessful at getting any of his ideas passed into law thus far. He's been in the majority party in the Senate and still never made any headway. As president, his ideas don't look like they will ever get past the 60 vote threshold in the Senate. Oh, and the electorate doesn't want free college and government health insurance.

With all respect to Elizabeth Warren, this is not the election for big ideas. This is the election for pragmatic ideas that can get enough support in the Senate to pass.

Also, seriously, do you look at Sanders and think that if the senior watch officer in the Situation Room and the military officer who carries the Football wakes him up at 0200 because he's got 9 minutes to make decisions on which hang the future of civilization, he's your guy? It disturbs me that we don't first consider fitness to control of our nuclear arsenal before we worry about health care.
You are making the mistake that the next election will be fought on Policy and not, "Our Candidate isn't Trump!"
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Old 14th February 2020, 12:08 AM   #79
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If people want Trump out, an "electable candidate", in other words whoever is leading, they'll have to put their trust in.

Sanders is leading by a lot. There's no guarantee a more bland centrist candidate will perform better against Trump than Sanders.
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Old 14th February 2020, 01:12 AM   #80
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If Sanders wins the nomination and you don't vote for him in November, you are helping Trump get re-elected. Then it'll be your fault.
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