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Old 7th January 2018, 09:16 AM   #161
Henri McPhee
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Henry, the list includes the sentences imposed, that means they were found guilty. Unless you find a case where the accused is clearly found not guilty or the case is dropped either prior to or duing the trial, then assume it is not relevant to this thread please.
They were found not guilty after being wrongfully arrested and convicted. That's relevant to this thread.

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Old 7th January 2018, 09:26 AM   #162
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No it isn't.
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Old 7th January 2018, 01:16 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
They were found not guilty after being wrongfully arrested and convicted. That's relevant to this thread.
Read the opening post and you will see what this thread is about.

Well, I live in hope anyway.
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Old 8th January 2018, 02:16 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
They were found not guilty after being wrongfully arrested and convicted. That's relevant to this thread.
They were originally found guilty at a trial. Convicted means they were found guilty at their trial. They then had that conviction overturned.

This thread is about people who were either found not guilty at their first trial or the case was dropped prior to going to trial. At no point have they been found guilty.

Please stop posting anything about anyone who has ever been found guilty at a trial
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Old 19th January 2018, 05:26 AM   #165
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-42745181

"An Oxford University student accused of rape has had the charges dropped after being on bail for two years.
Oliver Mears was arrested on suspicion of rape and sexual assault in July 2015 when he was 17 years old.
The chemistry scholar, now 19, was told prosecutors would offer no evidence against him, just days before the start of his trial on Monday.
Prosecutors said the decision to withdraw came after an evidence review, but was not due to a disclosure issue."

The CPS scum (no better word for those involved) wait till 2 DAYS before the trial and admit they have NO EVIDENCE!!!

Update

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/537759...vidence-diary/

"A NEWLY-discovered diary has cleared an Oxford University student of rape just days before he was due to stand trial after two years of torment.
Sarah Lindop, for the Crown Prosecution Service, said material had surfaced last week which she admitted was "late in the day" on what was already a"finely balanced case".

When asked what the delay in getting the evidence was, she explained there were "disclosure matters" in diary entries that cops had been trying to secure."
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Old 20th January 2018, 10:53 AM   #166
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Here is why there is such a problem;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42734185

Alison Saunders, head of prosecutions in England, thinks that the recent series of collapsed rape cases is a sign the system works!!!!!

"No-one is in jail after being wrongly convicted due to failures to disclose evidence, the UK's top prosecutor has said "as far as she can tell".
Alison Saunders' comments come after several rape trials collapsed when it emerged that vital evidence had not been shared with defence lawyers.
The Metropolitan Police has launched a review of 30 sex crime cases.
Speaking to BBC Radio 4's Today programme, Ms Saunders said it actually showed the justice system was working.
She said that the collapsed trials demonstrate that "safeguards in place" in the trial process prevent wrongful imprisonment."

No, what that shows is how the police and prosecutors keep on failing to fully and properly investigate crimes and instead they fixate on a suspect so as to get a detection and a trial. They only look for evidence to convict and ignore exculpatory evidence.

Innocent people's lives are put on hold, often ruined and left with life long effects because the police and CPS do not understand that.
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Old 20th January 2018, 05:55 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
<snip>

No, what that shows is how the police and prosecutors keep on failing to fully and properly investigate crimes and instead they fixate on a suspect so as to get a detection and a trial. They only look for evidence to convict and ignore exculpatory evidence.

Innocent people's lives are put on hold, often ruined and left with life long effects because the police and CPS do not understand that.

I think they understand just fine. They are callous, not stupid. They just don't care.

A little 'collateral damage' is a price they are willing to pay. (Probably because it doesn't cost them anything. Which is the root of much of the problem.)
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Old 21st January 2018, 06:32 AM   #168
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The fear, for rape in particular, is that the crap investigations will mean juries are less likely to convict because they are worried the police and prosecutor has hidden evidence or not bothered to properly check the evidence.
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Old 21st January 2018, 07:41 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The fear, for rape in particular, is that the crap investigations will mean juries are less likely to convict because they are worried the police and prosecutor has hidden evidence or not bothered to properly check the evidence.
This is the other side of the problem, every such case where evidence is hidden or the alleged victim made false claims just makes things harder for genuine victims. There really have to be stiffer penalties for those who attempt to use the legal system to indulge their spite over some petty personal issue.
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Old 21st January 2018, 09:04 AM   #170
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The idiot Alison Saunders, who runs the CPS said

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42734185

"that although police had to "pursue all reasonable lines of inquiry" it was not reasonable to expect them to explore "every single avenue" of what a person had ever done in their life."

You don't need to check everything! What an idiotic, childish comment.

Just ensure that the police ask the victim/accuser, show me what you have posted online, texted and written about the accused, in particular anything you said about the allegation of rape. Make sure the police check everything around the time of the allegation. Point out that if she fails to disclose anything or lies, then the case is likely to collapse and she could be charged with attempting to pervert the course of justice.
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Old 21st January 2018, 11:59 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The idiot Alison Saunders, who runs the CPS said

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42734185

"that although police had to "pursue all reasonable lines of inquiry" it was not reasonable to expect them to explore "every single avenue" of what a person had ever done in their life."

You don't need to check everything! What an idiotic, childish comment.

Just ensure that the police ask the victim/accuser, show me what you have posted online, texted and written about the accused, in particular anything you said about the allegation of rape. Make sure the police check everything around the time of the allegation. Point out that if she fails to disclose anything or lies, then the case is likely to collapse and she could be charged with attempting to pervert the course of justice.

Will she be?

I suspect it is unlikely, and although other justifications might be bandied about, I suspect that a trial which would showcase the dereliction of the police in their investigation of the original charges is probably among the most telling considerations.
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Old 21st January 2018, 12:52 PM   #172
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It is rare for a rape report found to be untrue, ends up as a conviction for the accuser, but it does happen;

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e...ns-njz0fxtmrw8

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-fife-35168499

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-10-years.html
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Old 22nd January 2018, 02:17 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Here is why there is such a problem;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42734185

Alison Saunders, head of prosecutions in England, thinks that the recent series of collapsed rape cases is a sign the system works!!!!!
That's awful. When a rape trial collapses after more than two years of investigation and preparation, it seems to me there are only three possible scenarios:
(1) The accused was guilty of rape, but now will never be properly punished.
(2) The victim was raped by someone other than the accused, who will probably now never be punished at all because the case has gone cold, and an innocent person has suffered years of stress, uncertainty and accusation, and will to some people always be assumed to be guilty.
(3) The accusation was false, and an innocent person has suffered years of stress, uncertainty and accusation, and will to some people always be assumed to be guilty.

None of these is a good outcome.

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Old 22nd January 2018, 08:32 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
That's awful. When a rape trial collapses after more than two years of investigation and preparation, it seems to me there are only three possible scenarios:
(1) The accused was guilty of rape, but now will never be properly punished.
(2) The victim was raped by someone other than the accused, who will probably now never be punished at all because the case has gone cold, and an innocent person has suffered years of stress, uncertainty and accusation, and will to some people always be assumed to be guilty.
(3) The accusation was false, and an innocent person has suffered years of stress, uncertainty and accusation, and will to some people always be assumed to be guilty.

None of these is a good outcome.

Dave

One thing that can help at least a little is a well-publicized statement of exoneration by a high level official. It isn't a fix, but it at least makes the attempt.

I was quite proud of (and a bit surprised at) our then state Attorney General (now Governor) when he arranged a press conference to announce the total exoneration of all the students charged in the infamous Duke lacrosse case. The prosecutor responsible was disbarred, fired, and charged with contempt of court for his false statements during the trial proceedings. He ended up filing for bankruptcy.

It is a precedent I wish was followed more often.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 11:09 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
One thing that can help at least a little is a well-publicized statement of exoneration by a high level official. It isn't a fix, but it at least makes the attempt.

I was quite proud of (and a bit surprised at) our then state Attorney General (now Governor) when he arranged a press conference to announce the total exoneration of all the students charged in the infamous Duke lacrosse case. The prosecutor responsible was disbarred, fired, and charged with contempt of court for his false statements during the trial proceedings. He ended up filing for bankruptcy.

It is a precedent I wish was followed more often.
That is good, especially since so many people like the "no smoke without fire" suggestion of guilt, which is the antithesis of innocent unless proven guilty.

Saunders should be making clear statements to say that the cases collapsed due to insufficient credible evidence and/or the existence of exculpatory evidence and that means the men accused ARE innocent.
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Old 24th January 2018, 07:18 AM   #176
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BBC report of a 70% increase in cases being dropped after the police had been found wanting regarding disclosure

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42795058

"Last year, 916 people had charges dropped over a failure to disclose evidence - up from 537 in 2014-15."

I think that shows the scale miscarriages of justices in the system.
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Old 24th January 2018, 07:26 AM   #177
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What seems scary to me is that those are the ones where the charges were dropped - how many were not dropped?
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Old 24th January 2018, 08:08 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Worm View Post
What seems scary to me is that those are the ones where the charges were dropped - how many were not dropped?

If your prosecutors have anything like the difficulty conceding error that ours do I would say the number has to be at least an order of magnitude higher.

Maybe more.
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Old 24th January 2018, 08:40 AM   #179
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In 2015-16 in Scotland the police reported 226,000 cases for prosecution and of those 26,000 were dropped without any action at all and of the 117,000 which went to trial, 17,000 were dropped or the accused was found not guilty. So, 43,000 or 19% of cases did not have enough evidence to convict.

But the police and prosecutor thinks that is a sign the system is working!!!

Details here;

http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Statistic...imProc/CPtab16
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Old 24th January 2018, 08:54 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
In 2015-16 in Scotland the police reported 226,000 cases for prosecution and of those 26,000 were dropped without any action at all and of the 117,000 which went to trial, 17,000 were dropped or the accused was found not guilty. So, 43,000 or 19% of cases did not have enough evidence to convict.

But the police and prosecutor thinks that is a sign the system is working!!!

Details here;

http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Statistic...imProc/CPtab16

Okay. Definitely more.

More like two orders of magnitude.

And the scary part is that those are just the cases they lost. I'm not sure how to go about developing an accurate number of convictions which resulted from a prosecutor's failure to behave professionally.

It's reasonable to expect that number to be non-zero, though.
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Old 24th January 2018, 02:15 PM   #181
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This FOI has some information;

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque...ges_of_justice

"Out of “78 individuals whose convictions were quashed by the Court of Appeal between 1st April 2006 and 31st March 2009” the causes were;

- New Expert (non- medical) evidence: 7 (covering a range if issues from DNA to false confessions and psychiatric reports).

- Discredited expert witness: 3 (this is a single case with three co-defendants).

- New medical evidence: 3.

- Unreliable witness / miscellaneous new witness: 11 (basically where new information about a witness, often but not always the complainant, or new witness testimony has been obtained to undermine the safety of the conviction.)

- Non-disclosure of material to the defence -13 (the accidental or deliberate non-disclosure, by prosecuting or investigating authority, of material which might have assisted the defence or undermined the prosecution and which the disclosure rules say the defence should have had access to).

- Misconduct by police or other authorities (such as HM Customs and Excise) – 15 (15 individuals involved in six actual cases)

- Judicial / process failure: 10 (issues such as errors in summing up, jury directions, not making alternative counts available for the jury to consider – this includes two cases involving a ruling by the House of Lords to clarify a point of law about causation in manslaughter conviction)

- One case was referred on grounds of defence incompetence.

- One was a magistrates’ court case related to planning law

I think that only case was the defence and the rest were the police, prosecutor and courts says it all.
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Old 25th January 2018, 12:58 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
In 2015-16 in Scotland the police reported 226,000 cases for prosecution and of those 26,000 were dropped without any action at all and of the 117,000 which went to trial, 17,000 were dropped or the accused was found not guilty. So, 43,000 or 19% of cases did not have enough evidence to convict.

But the police and prosecutor thinks that is a sign the system is working!!!

Details here;

http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Statistic...imProc/CPtab16
The obvious reason why they push forward with weak/questionable cases is that they've succeed with similar ones in the past. You only have to look at the miscarriage of justice threads to see how often juries seem willing to ignore gaping holes in prosecution evidence. A lacklustre defence, a judge willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the prosecution, any or all of this could let cases that should have been thrown out 'succeed' in securing a conviction.
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Old 25th January 2018, 01:08 PM   #183
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The main reason is to meet targets and because no one (cops or prosecutor) gets into trouble for accusing an innocent person. So sometimes a false accusation is a way at getting another who is not liked.
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Old 31st January 2018, 02:16 PM   #184
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42892530

"A woman held in custody for more than 13 months before her trial collapsed has told the BBC she hopes someone will be punished for the failures which led to her giving birth in prison."

The accuser meanwhile....

"The complainant claimed she had been trafficked and forced into prostitution by the three defendants and had become pregnant after being raped in the UK.
It later emerged the woman was already pregnant when she entered the country in 2016, when she was examined three days after the arrest of Ms Bosoanca.
At London's Wood Green Crown Court, Judge Perrins said the defence had requested medical evidence about the pregnancy as long ago as August 2017 and had been repeatedly told that no such medical evidence existed.
This repeated failure to properly disclose the police doctor's report was, said the judge, "one of the more serious failings identified in this case and requires further explanation".

...which, along with other evidence was held back until day 2 of the trial.

This is what is happening WITH disclosure laws. God knows how many have been jailed before those laws because evidence was kept back.
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Old 31st January 2018, 05:30 PM   #185
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Not intending to derail, but this has been a huge problem with the Lockerbie trial. A shedload of evidence confirming that the crime simply didn't happen the way the police and the prosecution said it did was withheld and has only recently come to light. Unfortunately I believe the disclosure law in Scotland in 2000 left it up to the prosecution to decide what the defence needed to know, so it wasn't illegal at the time.

And now that all this stuff has come to light, all we get is, he was found guilty in court so that's that, shut up and go away.
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