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Old 21st December 2017, 04:47 AM   #81
Cleon
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Could you put a finer point on this question by citing the, presumably, opposing opinion these organizations claim?
You can start with the AVMA, but you'll find similar positions from the HSUS and various behaviorist groups.

Ultimately, BSL isn't effective at preventing dog attacks, and there aren't any controlled studies that show pits to be more dangerous than any other dog. That is the consensus view among professionals.
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Old 21st December 2017, 04:49 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
This has come up in the UK after the stupidity of making "pit bulls" illegal. Pitbull is in quotes because it often turns out that in prosecutions there are disagreement of what is a Pitbull, "experts" are called in. My view is that if it is so difficult to determine if a dog is a legal breed or not then there is a problem with the definition of the breed and any law based on such a weak description.
Do you find the knife bans in the UK reasonable?
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Old 21st December 2017, 04:53 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Do you find the knife bans in the UK reasonable?
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Old 21st December 2017, 04:53 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Snort. Your bias is rational, mine is not. 'K.

I don't know why I wasted my time.
Your bias involves the relentless and systematic rejection of statistics unfavourable to your case, including the medical analyses I linked to earlier. So, yes, your bias is not rational.
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Old 21st December 2017, 04:54 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Because past experience has revealed that people, including policemen, are very bad at identifying breeds, calling any medium-sized, muscled dog with big jaws a 'Pit Bull'.

They look more like staffies to me in that picture, but I'm a long way from an expert.
Sadly you would seem to be the equal of the experts that are used to determine if a dog is indeed a "pitbull" or not.
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Old 21st December 2017, 04:56 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Do you find the knife bans in the UK reasonable?
Do you find the restrictions placed on people who own large predators (big cats, bears, canids and so forth) unreasonable ?
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Old 21st December 2017, 04:59 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Your bias involves the relentless and systematic rejection of statistics unfavourable to your case, including the medical analyses I linked to earlier. So, yes, your bias is not rational.
Sorry, Bucky, get back to me when you can make your point without hypocrisy and special pleading.

There are no controlled studies that show pit bulls are more dangerous than any other breed. That's not just my view, that's the view of the AVMA, HSUS, CDC, and other presumably "irrationally biased unlike GlennB whose bias is rational" organizations.
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Old 21st December 2017, 06:58 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I don't trust the reporting regarding the breed of the animals.

Is there even a standard for 'Pitt Bull'?

Originally Posted by 3point14
Because past experience has revealed that people, including policemen, are very bad at identifying breeds, calling any medium-sized, muscled dog with big jaws a 'Pit Bull'.

They look more like staffies to me in that picture, but I'm a long way from an expert.
Staffies are pit bulls.

The term "pit bull" as used by reporters, police and the general public is a type of dog, not a breed of dog. In nearly all cases they are using the term correctly.

The type of dog known as pit bulls are comprised of a few different breeds. These are the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, American Pit Bull, and American Bully. Some include the American Bulldog in the pit bull type. Crossbreeds are also included in the type and may be more common than purebreeds.

Non-professionals may be poor at identifying specific breeds but they are likely to be accurate when identifying the pit bull type.
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Old 21st December 2017, 07:02 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Staffies are pit bulls.
This is news to me. Can I see from where your information comes?
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Old 21st December 2017, 07:08 AM   #90
The Don
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
This is news to me. Can I see from where your information comes?
Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull

Which in turn comes from the ASPCA

https://www.aspca.org/animal-cruelty...ic-legislation
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Old 21st December 2017, 07:15 AM   #91
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The Don gave a good reference and here's another.

Originally Posted by Pit Bull Rescue Central
"Pit bull” is NOT a breed. It's a generic term often used to describe all dogs with similar traits and characteristics known to the public as "pit bulls." When we use the term “pit bull” here, it should be understood to encompass American Pit Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers, and Staffordshire Bull Terriers, and mixes of those breeds.

http://m.pbrc.net/app/breed-information/7524554/36
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Old 21st December 2017, 07:17 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
There are no controlled studies that show pit bulls are more dangerous than any other breed.
"Controlled studies"? Are you kidding? How would such a study be conducted?

Meanwhile, medical analyses of dog bite cases do find a disproportionate number of attacks by PBs and that the outcome is measurably worse where the attack is from a PB type.

In addition, you can trawl through every recorded fatal dog attack for the USA, year by year, and check out the victim, the type of dog and some fair detail on the circumstances. I started at 2015, for no special reason.

Pit bull
Pit bull
Pit bulls (3)
Pit bull
Rottweiler
Pit bulls (2)
...
with the odd exception here and there.
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Old 21st December 2017, 07:35 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
"Controlled studies"? Are you kidding? How would such a study be conducted?
OK, if you're going to handwave away the idea of controlled studies, there's nothing more to talk about here. Despite what you tell yourself, you're not coming from any more of a rational position than I am. To make numbers count, you have to control for factors other than breed - which may be inconvenient to your (ETA: or my) conclusions, but that's how science is done.

"Statistics are like a bikini; what they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital."

Have a nice day, Glenn.
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Old 21st December 2017, 07:40 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The Don gave a good reference and here's another.




http://m.pbrc.net/app/breed-information/7524554/36

Many thank to you both.
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Old 21st December 2017, 07:42 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Just for shiggles, I decided to look up what the ASPCA had to say about pitbulls. Not at all surprisingly (to me and anyone else informed on such matters), they're anti-BSL and pro-treating-dogs-as-individuals.
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Old 21st December 2017, 08:05 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
In addition, you can trawl through every recorded fatal dog attack for the USA, year by year, and check out the victim, the type of dog and some fair detail on the circumstances. I started at 2015, for no special reason.

Pit bull
Pit bull
Pit bulls (3)
Pit bull
Rottweiler
Pit bulls (2)
...
with the odd exception here and there.
Thanks for the link. That was pretty interesting. While "pit bull" does make up a disproportionate number of attacks since about 1984 it's interesting to note that the majority of deaths were a result of multiple dogs or pack attacks (including pits.)
I guess don't let your dog hang with a rough crowd.

It may be a bit dog-ist of me but I'm usually much more aware of my behavior around pit/staff/mixes, even though I've had no problems with any. My dogs on the other hand have had a couple of bad run-ins exclusively with pit/staff/mixes. It's safest to avoid them when I'm out with my hounds. Not much more chaotic and terrifying than breaking up a dog fight.
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Old 21st December 2017, 08:07 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Tony99 View Post
Thanks for the link. That was pretty interesting. While "pit bull" does make up a disproportionate number of attacks since about 1984 it's interesting to note that the majority of deaths were a result of multiple dogs or pack attacks (including pits.)
I guess don't let your dog hang with a rough crowd.
I think the rule is 'don't look like prey'



Quote:
It may be a bit dog-ist of me but I'm usually much more aware of my behavior around pit/staff/mixes, even though I've had no problems with any. My dogs on the other hand have had a couple of bad run-ins exclusively with pit/staff/mixes. It's safest to avoid them when I'm out with my hounds. Not much more chaotic and terrifying than breaking up a dog fight.

Something I'd only try, under duress, with very small dogs. Even then you're risking a finger.
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Old 21st December 2017, 08:09 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Just for shiggles, I decided to look up what the ASPCA had to say about pitbulls. Not at all surprisingly (to me and anyone else informed on such matters), they're anti-BSL and pro-treating-dogs-as-individuals.
Part of the problem is that treating dogs as individuals can result in the all-too-often "(S)He's never done that before". If it's a small breed then that can result in a very uncomfortable bite, if it's a larger breed and especially one optimised for jaw strength and tenacity then that can result in life ending/limiting/changing injuries.

Perhaps pit bulls really don't present any greater risk than any other breed, but they do seem to be involved in a disproportionate number of life ending/limiting/changing attacks. Part of that may be that a vast range of dogs are called pit bulls by the press even if they're nothing like a pit bull - rather like all guns are AR15s

My own observations are as follows:
  • I'm a jogger on paths in an area of woodland where people typically exercise their dogs off the lead
  • Dogs draw blood on me pretty much every year, usually a handful of times
  • Each time the dog is wildly out of control and angry or excited
  • The owner almost always fails to take responsibility - it's either a huge surprise to them, or apparently my fault for being out on a run
  • I've been attacked by pretty much every kind of dog. To me big dogs are more frightening, tend to hurt more and are more difficult to detatch
  • I've been very lucky that I haven't required hospitalisation or even an ER visit
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Old 21st December 2017, 08:21 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Perhaps pit bulls really don't present any greater risk than any other breed, but they do seem to be involved in a disproportionate number of life ending/limiting/changing attacks. Part of that may be that a vast range of dogs are called pit bulls by the press even if they're nothing like a pit bull - rather like all guns are AR15s
And that's a fair statement, IMO. Other factors are that pit bulls are disproportionately more likely to be abused, abandoned, and bred by "backyard breeders."

Hence the need to control for these factors, as well as misidentification, when studying the subject.
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Old 21st December 2017, 08:31 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Part of the problem is that treating dogs as individuals can result in the all-too-often "(S)He's never done that before". If it's a small breed then that can result in a very uncomfortable bite, if it's a larger breed and especially one optimised for jaw strength and tenacity then that can result in life ending/limiting/changing injuries.

Perhaps pit bulls really don't present any greater risk than any other breed, but they do seem to be involved in a disproportionate number of life ending/limiting/changing attacks. Part of that may be that a vast range of dogs are called pit bulls by the press even if they're nothing like a pit bull - rather like all guns are AR15s

My own observations are as follows:
  • I'm a jogger on paths in an area of woodland where people typically exercise their dogs off the lead
  • Dogs draw blood on me pretty much every year, usually a handful of times
  • Each time the dog is wildly out of control and angry or excited
  • The owner almost always fails to take responsibility - it's either a huge surprise to them, or apparently my fault for being out on a run
  • I've been attacked by pretty much every kind of dog. To me big dogs are more frightening, tend to hurt more and are more difficult to detatch
  • I've been very lucky that I haven't required hospitalisation or even an ER visit
This really amazed me, but tied in with an attitude that I'd seen on other sites where Americans seem to view dogs as a much bigger threat than most of us in the UK so I took a look for some roughly comparable figures-:

2005-2013

UK 17 Fatalities
US 283 Fatalities

Even allowing for the difference in sources this seems a massive discrepancy when adjusted for population. (It also occurred to me, at risk of opening a different can of worms, that this is an area where the proverbial 'good guy with a gun' should probably be making a difference)

I have never (and I hope to keep it this way) been attacked myself, or seen anyone attacked by a dog, and over the last two and a half years in particular I've been out pretty much every day in areas used for dog walking.

Any thoughts on the apparent difference?

(sources UK:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...tatistics.html
US: https://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/9-year-...ogsbiteorg.pdf)
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Old 21st December 2017, 08:43 AM   #101
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Here is another ISF thread on pit bulls. Same arguments.

Montreal bans pit bulls: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=312446
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Old 21st December 2017, 08:48 AM   #102
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Some happy news on that front, Montreal recently elected a new government that promised to do away with the anti-pit laws. Sadly, it happened after I just accepted a new gig, or I'd take the gf and dogs and move up there.
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Old 21st December 2017, 08:50 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
If you care more about who said what rather than what's being said, you're probably on the wrong side of the argument.
Not in the real world, no. Looking at the messenger is a practical heuristic for determining how much effort to allocate to their message. There's only so many hours in the day, and not everything can be a priority for analysis.

I have yet to find an issue in my life that was so important that I needed to stop and figure out whether PETA's position on it might actually be reasonable. Pit bulls are definitely not that issue, for me.
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Old 21st December 2017, 08:57 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
... why is it that there are no professional veterinary, behaviourist, or animal rescue organizations that share your opinion?
In Canada the provincial government was challenged in court by the SPCA when the gov was proposing a Pit Bull ban.

The Canadian campaign manager for Humane Society International called the Pit Bull ban “senseless and archaic legislation” and stated it goes against the findings of researchers and experts.

That's just two bits I found in a few seconds by searching Pit Bull ban.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...-bull-ban.html

Proposed Pit Bull bans in Canada have prompted the SPCA to refuse calls (against their animal control contracts) to municipal governments proposing breed specific bans.

There's a large organization widely promoted by Veterinarians and Vet Techs, that oppose ALL breed specific bans in Canada ... for a while two summers ago you could not walk 20 meters without seeing one of their stickers or flyers.

Last edited by Ron Swanson; 21st December 2017 at 09:01 AM. Reason: Corrected spelling of Pit Bull it came out pitfall :)
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Old 21st December 2017, 08:58 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I think the rule is 'don't look like prey'
That's one huge drawback to having been an apex predator for so long, and having arranged so much of the world to suit us: Humans no longer have any instinctive sense of whether they look like prey to other predators anymore.

Perhaps the best solution is to continue arranging the world to suit us: Stop taking big strong predators as pets, if we don't understand how they see us. Instead, breed big strong predation out of our pet animals.
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Old 21st December 2017, 09:02 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
In Canada the provincial government was challenged in court by the SPCA when the gov was proposing a Pit Bull ban.

The Canadian campaign manager for Humane Society International called the Pit Bull ban “senseless and archaic legislation” and stated it goes against the findings of researchers and experts.

That's just two bits I found in a few seconds by searching Pit Bull ban.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...-bull-ban.html

Proposed Pit Bull bans in Canada have prompted the SPCA to refuse calls (against their animal control contracts) to municipal governments proposing breed specific bans.

There's a large organization widely promoted by Veterinarians and Vet Techs, that oppose ALL breed specific bans in Canada ... for a while two summers ago you could not walk 20 meters without seeing one of their stickers or flyers.
I think you'll find that this backs up what I was saying, rather than challenges it.
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Old 21st December 2017, 09:16 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
I think you'll find that this backs up what I was saying, rather than challenges it.
OH! *Slaps Forehead* ... good .. I kinda had second thoughts while editing too ...

I'm not a dog owner but we always had dogs on the farm ... and I agree ... specific breed are just NOT the problem.

The meanest animal we had on the farm was a Sheep called "Sonny" .. he'd randomly attack anyone under say 5 feet tall ... by knocking them the ground then prancing away all full of himself for defending the farm I guess

Nobody ever considered banning all sheep.
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Old 21st December 2017, 09:24 AM   #108
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I don't think that specific breeds are the problem, but some breeds are not suitable for some people. In some cases the pool of people that they are suitable for is pretty small. Powerful dogs were generally bred to be working dogs and if they don't get appropriate exercise there will be problems.
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Old 21st December 2017, 09:36 AM   #109
Ron Swanson
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I don't think that specific breeds are the problem, but some breeds are not suitable for some people. In some cases the pool of people that they are suitable for is pretty small. Powerful dogs were generally bred to be working dogs and if they don't get appropriate exercise there will be problems.
Can't agree more there! ... One reason i don't have a dog here ... it's too much responsibility ... if I did get one I'm thinking a beagle mix ... they are pretty chill resting a lot.
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Old 21st December 2017, 09:41 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
Can't agree more there! ... One reason i don't have a dog here ... it's too much responsibility ... if I did get one I'm thinking a beagle mix ... they are pretty chill resting a lot.
Try a lurcher, forty mile an hour rugs.
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Old 21st December 2017, 09:43 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Try a lurcher, forty mile an hour rugs.
We had a miniature collie once .. it was way too busy ... always running around all day
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Old 21st December 2017, 09:49 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I don't think that specific breeds are the problem, but some breeds are not suitable for some people. In some cases the pool of people that they are suitable for is pretty small. Powerful dogs were generally bred to be working dogs and if they don't get appropriate exercise there will be problems.
Oh god yes. Thank God for a nice yard and doggie day care.
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Old 21st December 2017, 09:49 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
2005-2013

UK 17 Fatalities
US 283 Fatalities

Any thoughts on the apparent difference?
I didn't know that the difference was so huge. We'd need more data to try to give answers why. Maybe it's already been analyzed for reasons.
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Old 21st December 2017, 09:52 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
I'm thinking a beagle mix ... they are pretty chill resting a lot.
Any dog that barks a thousand times an hour is going to need a lot of rest.
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Old 21st December 2017, 09:58 AM   #115
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Powerful dogs were generally bred to be working dogs and if they don't get appropriate exercise there will be problems.
The various pit bull types weren't bred for work but rather for sport - attacking bulls and dogs mainly. More recently they are bred for attacking feral pigs which is a form of hunting. They are still mostly using the same behavior and physical characteristics from when they were used to fight bulls.
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Old 21st December 2017, 10:06 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The various pit bull types weren't bred for work but rather for sport - attacking bulls and dogs mainly. More recently they are bred for attacking feral pigs which is a form of hunting. They are still mostly using the same behavior and physical characteristics from when they were used to fight bulls.
The assumption here is that all pit bulls come from this population of bred fighting dogs, and I don't know if that's necessarily the case. You can get a "pit bull" type dog any time you breed a bulldog with a terrier. Add in a century of breed mixing, and things get really muddy really quickly.
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Old 21st December 2017, 10:11 AM   #117
Ron Swanson
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
This really amazed me, but tied in with an attitude that I'd seen on other sites where Americans seem to view dogs as a much bigger threat than most of us in the UK so I took a look for some roughly comparable figures-:

2005-2013

UK 17 Fatalities
US 283 Fatalities
Add in the fact dog ownership in the US is almost twice the level of the UK .... and population is 5 times higher,... and the US has almost 100 million dogs ... the UK only has abut 8.5 million.

This brings the per capita figures much closer.

Last edited by Ron Swanson; 21st December 2017 at 10:14 AM.
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Old 21st December 2017, 10:17 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
Add in the fact dog ownership in the US is almost twice the level of the UK .... and population is 5 times higher,... and the US has almost 100 million dogs ... the UK only has abut 8.5 million.

This brings the per capita figures much closer.
You also have to figure in the human populations. 65mill+/1 vs 325+/-.

Still seems like USans are more likely to get killed by a dog.
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Old 21st December 2017, 10:26 AM   #119
Ron Swanson
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
You also have to figure in the human populations. 65mill+/1 vs 325+/-.

Still seems like USans are more likely to get killed by a dog.
Yes agreed even with all the variables and estimates .. it sees more likely ...

I wonder since there and MANY more remote areas in the US (like far away from Hospitals) than the UK .. if that's a factor ..

Another 20% maybe 25% of people passing away from dogs bites who could not get care in time, would even up the stats.
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Old 21st December 2017, 10:27 AM   #120
Darat
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Staffies are pit bulls.

The term "pit bull" as used by reporters, police and the general public is a type of dog, not a breed of dog. In nearly all cases they are using the term correctly.

The type of dog known as pit bulls are comprised of a few different breeds. These are the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, American Pit Bull, and American Bully. Some include the American Bulldog in the pit bull type. Crossbreeds are also included in the type and may be more common than purebreeds.

Non-professionals may be poor at identifying specific breeds but they are likely to be accurate when identifying the pit bull type.
Not according to the dangerous dog legislation in the UK, even though you would be hard pressed to say this legal "definition" of a pitbull doesn't also apply to staffies.

Quote:
General Description
Muscular smooth-haired dog.
Has a square profile (ie as tall from the
ground to the top of the shoulder and
as long from point of shoulder to point
of hip).

Height (average for both male and
female) (shoulder): 45–55 cm.

Head
Should be wedge-shaped when viewed
from the top or side and round when
viewed from the front.
Broad jawbones.
Broad skull.
Strongly developed nostrils.
Strongly developed cheek and
jaw muscles.
Muzzle
Not pointed.

Ears
Located high on skull.
Tips of ears fold forward or sideways
or have been cropped.
No wrinkles.

Eyes
Elliptical when viewed from front.
Triangular when viewed from side.
Small and deep set.

Neck
Muscular all the way up to base of skull.

Chest
Broad.
Deep ribcage.
Ribs strongly curved tapering towards
bottom.

Back
Muscular.
Broad sloping hips.
Broad loin.

Legs
Front legs are straight and give a massive,
solid impression.
Hips are long and broad and continue on
to become relatively long hind legs with
a well-muscled thigh.

Coat
Single coat.
Short smooth haired but bristled to touch.
Can be any colour.

Tail
Located low down in hindquarters.
Thick at base tapering to point at end.
Narrows to a slender tip or has
been docked.
Should hang like a pump handle
when relaxed.
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