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Old 21st December 2017, 01:52 PM   #161
sadhatter
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
And that's a fair statement, IMO. Other factors are that pit bulls are disproportionately more likely to be abused, abandoned, and bred by "backyard breeders."

Hence the need to control for these factors, as well as misidentification, when studying the subject.
A pit bull is like a butterfly knife.

If used improperly they can hurt you or others and everyone who wants one never thinks they are stupid enough to get hurt by, or hurt someone else with one.

I'd love a butterfly knife, but I also understand why they are banned, and in a grudging way support it. Never met a pit bull fan with the same attitude. Seems like once you give a weapon a brain people stop using theirs.
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Old 21st December 2017, 01:53 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Tony99 View Post
Always helps any anxiety or stress when you walk in the door to a wagging tail and a happy face who wants to know all about your day or a have a sleepy, furry head in your lap while watching TV.
Or an exuberant walking or hiking companion or a car ride buddy or a kitchen activities supervisor.


The only downside is that two of my dogs, our pocket pittie being one of them, is at the perfect height to give me the Nut Punch of Love as I walk in the door.
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Old 21st December 2017, 01:56 PM   #163
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Woman killed and partially eaten ...

I was just thinking about this head line ... realistically is there even ONE case of dogs COMPLETELY eating any animal or human .. I mean ALL the bones and hair and everything?

If dogs eat someone ... EVERY incident would be a "Partial Eating" .. am i right?
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Old 21st December 2017, 01:56 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I don't know if it's true but I've read about a simple aggression test used by agencies to see if a dog is suitable to be placed for adoption. Basically you remove a food bowl while they are eating and observe the behavior. If they aggressively defend the food then it's predicted to be a problem dog. That's a test for one aspect of aggression. I read that if the dog fails this test they are likely to be destroyed rather than adopted out. Again I don't know if this is a consistently used evaluation, or what.
I've seen that test used in TV programs (Animal Cops?) to check a dog's behaviour prior to rehoming from a rescue centre. Way back in time we learned - from TV I think - to establish dominance over a pup by deliberately taking its food bowl, sitting in its dog basket or tipping it off the sofa and so on. This actually only applied to 2 pups, one a Lab and the other a collie/saluki/lab cross. The Lab was pretty 'eh?' with that and was always chilled about everything, but the mutt always retained a bit of 'attitude'.
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Old 21st December 2017, 01:56 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Staffies are powerful little dogs, cross that with a breed that is inclined to nip or hunt and if it inherits the Staffie physique and the the other breeds behaviour it can be a problem. I would be careful around a staf/collie mix for example...
Tell me about it. Recently someone told me they owned a Pit / Cattle Dog mix. Sounds like a dog from hell. Mind you, I have great affection for my Cattle Dog, but her herding instinct is strong.
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Old 21st December 2017, 01:59 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I don't know if it's true but I've read about a simple aggression test used by agencies to see if a dog is suitable to be placed for adoption. Basically you remove a food bowl while they are eating and observe the behavior. If they aggressively defend the food then it's predicted to be a problem dog. That's a test for one aspect of aggression. I read that if the dog fails this test they are likely to be destroyed rather than adopted out. Again I don't know if this is a consistently used evaluation, or what.
You should be able to take anything away from a dog without aggression. Too many people unknowingly encourage unwanted behaviours for example by playing tug--of-war games then blame the dog when they don't understand when they can or can't play.
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Old 21st December 2017, 02:00 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
Woman killed and partially eaten ...

I was just thinking about this head line ... realistically is there even ONE case of dogs COMPLETELY eating any animal or human .. I mean ALL the bones and hair and everything?

If dogs eat someone ... EVERY incident would be a "Partial Eating" .. am i right?
Yes. It simply suggested that the woman was only a *bit* eaten. In fact, truth be told, the dogs were probably just continuing the savaging process, not 'eating' at all. But the post-mortem tests are not in yet, afaik.
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Old 21st December 2017, 02:06 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Not at all. As something that is dangerous and can act of its own volition should be regulated.
As a dog owner, I personally would have no problem with regulation that reintroduced dog licences and even brought in a training requirement (I think I'd probably already class as qualified but if I had to attend a course or take a test I'd be happy to do so if it helped improve animal welfare). Cat and horse owners would presumably also have to fulfill similar criteria? The death rate by cow in the UK is also comparatively significant.
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Old 21st December 2017, 02:23 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Tony99 View Post
And as new studies are done and our knowledge grows, we are learning that the dominance or Alpha theories to dogs and pack behaviors aren't necessarily correct.
Dogs don't see humans as 'leader/pack alpha' or see us as dogs at all.
And pecking order my not be how wolf/dog packs are arranged at all, but arranged by specific job with in the pack.

The mutt at your feet will certainly feel most comfortable, loyal and do what you want when he knows whats expected from him and what his job is and that does include correcting unwanted behavior, but thoughts about showing your dog who's boss or is leader of the pack is misplaced.

Training can often as individual as each dogs breed and personality.

Interesting stuff...like it or lump it:
https://positively.com/dog-training/...eory-debunked/

https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/is...s_20416-1.html

https://positively.com/dog-training/...out-dominance/
It's an interesting area, a lot of the 'accepted wisdom' on alpha theory was based on a pack of wolves in a constrained area that had been forced to live together but weren't related. Due to the artificiality of the situation a lot of the results are now discounted, but it's worth noting that domestic dogs are also in a non family situation so I don't entirely ignore it. But even in more natural familial groups dogs and wolves are hierarchical, if you're not a leader to your dog it will feel that it has to step up into the role, and that isn't good. I'm a believer in positive reinforcement, but when you own a dog you have to always understand that you're setting the rules, you can't encourage bad behaviour when it's fun and expect the dog to know when to turn it off. When you take on a dog you take it on full time.
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Old 21st December 2017, 02:34 PM   #170
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Just to add, I think you do have to be pack leader. It's just that a lot of people have the wrong idea of what that means. Studies on pack breeds (predominantly beagle packs) have shown that alpha dogs don't discipline subordinate dogs physically. It's not about beatings or alpha rolls, that just leads to aggression, it's about being in control of the situation. My dog knows that every good thing, dinner, treats, ball throws, walks comes from me. If I say 'sit' and he does good things happen, if he doesn't they don't, if strangers approach him and he's calm he's rewarded he has NEVER been rewarded for aggression.
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Old 21st December 2017, 03:05 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Not at all. As something that is dangerous and can act of its own volition should be regulated.
So, er....

People?

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Old 21st December 2017, 03:12 PM   #172
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There are approximately 5 million pitties in the US. There are 22 dog bite fatility, on average, per year in the US caused by reportedly by anything that looks pit like. That's means that of those 5 million, 0.000440% are hyper aggressive killing machines. I'm not how sure that a number so much closer to zero than to 1% makes the entire breed dangerous. In fact I'm pretty sure it means exactly the opposite.
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Old 21st December 2017, 03:22 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
There are approximately 5 million pitties in the US. There are 22 dog bite fatility, on average, per year in the US caused by reportedly by anything that looks pit like. That's means that of those 5 million, 0.000440% are hyper aggressive killing machines. I'm not how sure that a number so much closer to zero than to 1% makes the entire breed dangerous. In fact I'm pretty sure it means exactly the opposite.
Silly line of argument.

Translate those stats into a sometimes lethal fault with a car and the entire breed model would be recalled.
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Old 21st December 2017, 03:46 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
There are approximately 5 million pitties in the US. There are 22 dog bite fatility, on average, per year in the US caused by reportedly by anything that looks pit like. That's means that of those 5 million, 0.000440% are hyper aggressive killing machines. I'm not how sure that a number so much closer to zero than to 1% makes the entire breed dangerous. In fact I'm pretty sure it means exactly the opposite.
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Silly line of argument.

Translate those stats into a sometimes lethal fault with a car and the entire breed model would be recalled.
That isn't the worst part of the argument; in fact, it's not bad at all. No, the worst part of the argument is the implication that only fatalities from dog bites should be taken into account when deciding whether a particular breed of animal is more dangerous than others.

The "pitties" diminutive is also problematic as it's clearly being used to provide/enhance the "awww, cute doggie" factor.

FWIW, I don't have a dog in this breed-exterminating hunt. Given that the majority of dog attacks happen to their owners, I'm fine chalking it up to assumed risk. By that same token, attacks against others should see the dogs' owners dealt with harshly, up to and including prison time in extreme cases.

I'd also be cool with laws prohibiting people from keeping dogs in their homes that are bigger than their children.
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Old 21st December 2017, 03:48 PM   #175
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My experience leads me to think there are a lot of stupid dog owners out there, and there are a lot of people who misinterpret the actions of dogs.

Example of #1: I walked to the bus stop near my house and there was a young woman there with a moderately large mixed-breed dog, definitely had Staffordshire or pitbull-type blood in the mix. To comply with the leash law, she had a piece of string tied to his collar. I offered the back of my hand to the dog to sniff and she grabbed him by the collar and pulled him back hard, warning me that he was aggressive to anyone but her.

Then the bus pulled up and she and her dog boarded. A human-aggressive dog, on a crowded bus, with a piece of string for control.

#2. Experienced too many times to single out one incident. Dog takes hand or arm of person in mouth, gently - a standard greeting for canines. Person freaks out, jerks away, ensuring bruising or broken skin, and starts screaming, which freaks out the dog and makes them think the person is attacking. Things go downhill from there.

You know what? I'm not even a dog person. I have had only one beloved dog in my life, and that was partly because she didn't act like a dog. But apparently I understand dog behavior better than most people who own them.
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Old 21st December 2017, 03:49 PM   #176
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Oh, and PS: The only time anyone in my family has been attacked by a dog, it was a toy poodle and it nearly emasculated my father.
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Old 21st December 2017, 03:50 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
You should be able to take anything away from a dog without aggression. Too many people unknowingly encourage unwanted behaviours for example by playing tug--of-war games then blame the dog when they don't understand when they can or can't play.
I play like that with my dog and he clearly mouths my hand without biting if we are play wrestling. I am the alpha dog but dogs know the difference between play with the pack and aggression. He does the same with his sister, they often play fight and they aren't puppies anymore. The little one loves to play-nip and run. Chase is one of the games they both like, they want to be the one chased.

It must depend on the situation and dog.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 21st December 2017 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 21st December 2017, 03:53 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
But apparently I understand dog behavior better than most people who own them.
Sadly all too common.
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Old 21st December 2017, 03:58 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
I agree ... all dogs should be "trained", and part of all dog's mentality is that they are a 'pack animal where there are layers of leadership and a defined "pecking order"

... the humans in the pack (the household family) must be considered leaders of the pack.
Not sure I totally agree this is poss tbf

But slightly pedantic

Though probably wrong

Packs work on hierarchy

It would have to be "This" animal (happens to be human) in the pack is higher up than you.

You can't make a dog think every human that rocks up to stay for a week that is not part of their "home family" is automatically more the boss than the dog
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Old 21st December 2017, 04:10 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Just to add, I think you do have to be pack leader. It's just that a lot of people have the wrong idea of what that means. Studies on pack breeds (predominantly beagle packs) have shown that alpha dogs don't discipline subordinate dogs physically. It's not about beatings or alpha rolls, that just leads to aggression, it's about being in control of the situation. My dog knows that every good thing, dinner, treats, ball throws, walks comes from me. If I say 'sit' and he does good things happen, if he doesn't they don't, if strangers approach him and he's calm he's rewarded he has NEVER been rewarded for aggression.
I fully agree with both of your recent posts. I do think some of the language around dog behavior and training gets confusing to the average person e.g. Alpha, pack leader, "boss", dominant, etc.
People can interpret those words in a variety of ways and unfortunately often manifest themselves physically or harshly when interacting with their dogs even when the owners intentions are good.

That being said you certainly can't train your dogs with just your love and good vibes or any hippy-dippy Timothy Treadwell stuff, lol they are still animals.

One of my hounds is happy with a good scratch and a few kind words, the other could care less about that and is only focused on what she needs to do to get that treat in my pocket. I know with enough treats I could get her to do algebra while driving heavy equipment she so food driven.

I liken it more to being a parent or manager. Like you, positive reinforcement works well for me. My hounds know what behavior is allowed, when and where and whats expected of them in a variety of situations. That's just responsible pet ownership. And yes, I agree that dogs find comfort and confidence (resulting in good behavior) when they know that you are 'managing' things for them.
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Old 21st December 2017, 04:28 PM   #181
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Back to the OP: The flesh reeks of perfume and human scent. It tastes nothing like dog food. Yet they continue to eat. There is little meat at the ribcage and it requires precision gnawing to gain any mouthful. Yet they continue to eat...
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Old 21st December 2017, 05:11 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Silly line of argument.

Translate those stats into a sometimes lethal fault with a car and the entire breed model would be recalled.
The problem is you've yet to prove that there is a lethal fault specific to that breed. There is no causal relationship between two. Again, the math bears this to be true. If they were actually dangerous, shouldn't the fault be found in at least 1% of the dog? 10%? .00044% doesn't make the dog dangerous as a breed. There is likely another cause that you are ignoring.

There is no medium to large dog that hasn't killed a person. Why not just ban all dogs over, say, 30 pounds then? Sure, hunters can do without their retrievers, at the expense of game, but why should we let facts get in the way of your emotional pleadings?

Kitchen knives have drawn more blood than pitbulls, do we need to recall and ban knives? Dog bite visits to ER - roughly 320K a year. Knife injuries 435K.
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Old 21st December 2017, 05:20 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
That isn't the worst part of the argument; in fact, it's not bad at all. No, the worst part of the argument is the implication that only fatalities from dog bites should be taken into account when deciding whether a particular breed of animal is more dangerous than others.
Even if ALL of the 320K ER visits for dog bite related injuries were correctly ascribed to the pit bulls, it's up to a whopping 6.4% That is nowhere near the "all pitties are dangerous."
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Old 21st December 2017, 05:21 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Kitchen knives have drawn more blood than pitbulls, do we need to recall and ban knives?
A nuclear weapon will kill far more than any gun. So don't regulate or try to manage guns in any way. Shall we push things forwards?
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Old 21st December 2017, 05:28 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Tony99 View Post
That being said you certainly can't train your dogs with just your love and good vibes or any hippy-dippy Timothy Treadwell stuff, lol they are still animals.
Completely agree, I hate the whole 'energy' terminology that has grown up around 'dog whisperers', but some people don't understand that you can be firm and in control without hurting the dog or trying to alpha roll it or other tricks like that. My (unscientific) observation is that 'problem dog' owners tend to fall to either end of the spectrum, they either never try to impose discipline, or they try to physically chastise the dog, usually inconsistently, and by doing so the message the dog gets, aside from fear, distrust and possibly hatred, of humans is "we're close enough in status for you to want to fight me, therefore we're close enough that I might be able to fight back some time". The real alphas in dog society don't fight with the followers, any jockeying for position is between the rank and file.

I get really annoyed on another site where I sometimes answer questions on the subject and you get people saying things like making a dog sit while it's food is put out is "demeaning" or that they and their dog are equal partners so they don't want to boss it around. FFS that's a recipe for for someone getting bitten or a dog ending up under a car..
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Old 21st December 2017, 05:30 PM   #186
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And Tony99, loved your post. It made me laugh out loud.
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Old 21st December 2017, 05:35 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not in the real world, no. Looking at the messenger is a practical heuristic for determining how much effort to allocate to their message. There's only so many hours in the day, and not everything can be a priority for analysis.
This might make sense if her argument did not accompany the post. You might be taken seriously if you didn't wisely spend your time writing nearly 24,000 posts. This might make sense if her argument did accompany the post. But now you're wasting time re-reading a sentence about sentences that refuse to consider because it's too mentally taxing. I eagerly await your considerate reply.
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Old 21st December 2017, 05:39 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I play like that with my dog and he clearly mouths my hand without biting if we are play wrestling. I am the alpha dog but dogs know the difference between play with the pack and aggression. He does the same with his sister, they often play fight and they aren't puppies anymore. The little one loves to play-nip and run. Chase is one of the games they both like, they want to be the one chased.

It must depend on the situation and dog.
Yeas their mouth is also their hands .. they have t be ale to move puppies, carry and drag stuff etc without attacking it ... they know how much pressure the are using in general.
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Old 21st December 2017, 05:40 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
You can't make a dog think every human that rocks up to stay for a week that is not part of their "home family" is automatically more the boss than the dog
Yes we can
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Old 21st December 2017, 05:44 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Even if ALL of the 320K ER visits for dog bite related injuries were correctly ascribed to the pit bulls, it's up to a whopping 6.4% That is nowhere near the "all pitties are dangerous."
Who is saying all pit bulls are dangerous? Also, the knife analogy is retarded. Almost everyone uses a knife, including myself. How often do people interact with pit bulls? Can we replace knives? Not really. Do we have more dogs than homes available? Certainly.
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Old 21st December 2017, 06:06 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
Yes we can
I bow to your superior dog bonding
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 21st December 2017, 09:03 PM   #192
Leftus
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
A nuclear weapon will kill far more than any gun. So don't regulate or try to manage guns in any way. Shall we push things forwards?
Or we understand the concept of relative risk. Your very post speaks to the lack of understanding of what risks we consider to be acceptable and what we don't. There are far more risky things in life that we consider to be mundane and commonplace, and acceptable. But when something pulls at the heartstrings we overreact and perspective be damned. Like comparing a dog to a nuke. Yeah, that makes sense.
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Old 21st December 2017, 09:11 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Who is saying all pit bulls are dangerous? Also, the knife analogy is retarded. Almost everyone uses a knife, including myself. How often do people interact with pit bulls? Can we replace knives? Not really. Do we have more dogs than homes available? Certainly.
If you are saying they *all* should be banned due to a few outliers then yes, you are infact stating all pitbulls are dangerous. It's also a statement that the person to whom I was responding has made in the past.

Most of those dogs we don't have home for are the ones you are not going to like. Go ahead, go get one of them and see how dangerous the dog is. It's less dangerous than your knives.
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Old 21st December 2017, 10:23 PM   #194
cullennz
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Still can't help seeing comparisons to the US gun control argument.

You even have the token knife argument
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

Last edited by cullennz; 21st December 2017 at 10:25 PM.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 12:31 AM   #195
mikado
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
Yes we can
I tend to agree with this, if anyone visits I expect my dogs to respect and listen to them. If the dogs didn't I would want to know why and my dogs would be in trouble.

Having said which, many years ago I had a bitzer, Cassie the wonder dog, officially the best dog in the world. There was an elderly Indian gentleman who had suffered a stroke so the poor man shuffled.
One day whilst out walking, he was behind us on a rural road. He frightened her so much that for the only time in her life not only did she growl, but was growling the entire time of the walk.
I understood why he frightened her logically, but ridiculously fear is contagious, and it so freaked me out.....
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Old 22nd December 2017, 01:26 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
YMMV, but I'd find a new location for running - if that's local conditions and you have reported the conditions factually you're one bad day away from ending up dead or permanently injured.
Anywhere you run near dogs who are running free, you're going to get bitten now and again.

Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Are the local authorities aware of this and have other runners been attacked?
Yes, regularly. Most runners I know get a nip or two every year.

Referring to them as attacks is hyperbole on my part. These aren't jaws-round-the-jugular attacks, they're excited and/or angry dogs biting at the legs of the moving prey species as they go past.

From a sheer frightening point of view, the dogs on leashes are often worse, snarling and jumping and being a trip hazard.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 03:44 AM   #197
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Anywhere you run near dogs who are running free, you're going to get bitten now and again.



Yes, regularly. Most runners I know get a nip or two every year.

Referring to them as attacks is hyperbole on my part. These aren't jaws-round-the-jugular attacks, they're excited and/or angry dogs biting at the legs of the moving prey species as they go past.

From a sheer frightening point of view, the dogs on leashes are often worse, snarling and jumping and being a trip hazard.
As a dog owner rather than a runner, I don't think that this is a situation you or other runners should have to accept this as a given. I'm genuinely shocked.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 03:49 AM   #198
Cain
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
If you are saying they *all* should be banned due to a few outliers then yes, you are infact stating all pitbulls are dangerous.
What in the ****? If someone wants to ban heroin, it's not because she believes every person who jabs himself with a needle will inevitably OD and die. Instead it's because the total benefits outweigh the total costs. Look, we should all be allowed to use heroin and own hand grenades, but we can't because people suck. That's the way it works. I know a libertarian who hates putting a leash on her sweet, wet-eyed fur friend forever, but leash laws exist for a reason. I'm sure the vast majority of grenade owners will never harm anyone on purpose or accidentally, but **** them.

And that's another part of the equation: The unnecessary idiocy involved. Families do not need pit bulls. There are plenty of other types of dogs they can welcome into their homes (meaning a pit bull ban is not terribly burdensome).

Maybe it will be useful to clarify the parameters of the debate since so many people make this into a goddamn civil rights issue.

Supposing a ban on pit bulls did significantly reduce dog bite fatalities and serious injuries, would it be justified? (And keep in mind most of the fatalities do not involve owners like the woman in the OP but non-culpable victims -- mainly children and other animals -- who had no real choice in the matter.) Or is this still unfairly targeting all "pitties" because of a few bad actors?

Quote:
Most of those dogs we don't have home for are the ones you are not going to like. Go ahead, go get one of them and see how dangerous the dog is. It's less dangerous than your knives.
This makes no sense. And instead of comparing a pit bull ban to knife prohibition, consider comparing pit bulls to switchblades.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 03:54 AM   #199
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well said sir
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Old 22nd December 2017, 04:56 AM   #200
GlennB
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
FWIW, I don't have a dog in this breed-exterminating hunt. Given that the majority of dog attacks happen to their owners, I'm fine chalking it up to assumed risk.
They don't. The majority of victims are children, elderly relatives, neighbours and so on. In the US reports for 2014 I could only find two cases where the owner was killed by their dog 'reported' as a PB. 2015 also two, but that's as far as I looked.
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