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Old 22nd December 2017, 05:12 AM   #201
Babbylonian
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
They don't. The majority of victims are children, elderly relatives, neighbours and so on. In the US reports for 2014 I could only find two cases where the owner was killed by their dog 'reported' as a PB. 2015 also two, but that's as far as I looked.
You're right. I was thinking owners and family, and should have said so. It's why I added the bit about making it illegal to have dogs that are bigger than the children in one's home.

I will note once again, though, that you're referring only to deaths by dog (given the very low numbers), and I consider that only the tip of the dog-inflicted injury iceberg.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 05:43 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
You're right. I was thinking owners and family, and should have said so. It's why I added the bit about making it illegal to have dogs that are bigger than the children in one's home.

I will note once again, though, that you're referring only to deaths by dog (given the very low numbers), and I consider that only the tip of the dog-inflicted injury iceberg.
True. One of the medical sources quoted earlier involved a department dealing with reconstructive facial surgery and they concluded that PBs were not only very over-represented as culprits but the injuries inflicted were more severe.

It seems almost a characteristic of these attacks that the dog goes for the face and neck where possible. This might explain why so many of the deaths involve the very young or very old - they're easier to knock down or are maybe already down, exposing the head, and making death rather more likely than a 'mere' savaging.

But that gets to the point I've made in all these discussions: PBs attack differently from most dogs. When they attack they intend to kill, not just win.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 06:43 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Who is saying all pit bulls are dangerous? Also, the knife analogy is retarded. Almost everyone uses a knife, including myself. How often do people interact with pit bulls? Can we replace knives? Not really. Do we have more dogs than homes available? Certainly.
Arguments from analogy always fail.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 07:38 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by mikado View Post
I tend to agree with this, if anyone visits I expect my dogs to respect and listen to them. If the dogs didn't I would want to know why and my dogs would be in trouble.

Having said which, many years ago I had a bitzer, Cassie the wonder dog, officially the best dog in the world. There was an elderly Indian gentleman who had suffered a stroke so the poor man shuffled.
One day whilst out walking, he was behind us on a rural road. He frightened her so much that for the only time in her life not only did she growl, but was growling the entire time of the walk.
I understood why he frightened her logically, but ridiculously fear is contagious, and it so freaked me out.....
It's only due to your dog that you're still alive to tell about it. The man obviously had murderous intentions toward you, which your dog picked up on. The shuffling bit was just to make himself seem feeble and harmless and put you off your guard. He no doubt had a knife and would have jumped you and stabbed you to death but he realized from your dog's growling that the dog would attack him if he tried it. So, he decided to spare you and look for an easier victim!
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Old 22nd December 2017, 08:39 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
What in the ****? If someone wants to ban heroin, it's not because she believes every person who jabs himself with a needle will inevitably OD and die. Instead it's because the total benefits outweigh the total costs. Look, we should all be allowed to use heroin and own hand grenades, but we can't because people suck. That's the way it works. I know a libertarian who hates putting a leash on her sweet, wet-eyed fur friend forever, but leash laws exist for a reason. I'm sure the vast majority of grenade owners will never harm anyone on purpose or accidentally, but **** them.
I've been trying to get you to look at the total costs. And you've refused. The rates of incidents are so small, as to not be meaningful. Unlike your grenade example, Pit Bulls aren't inherently dangerous. The numbers prove it.

Quote:
And that's another part of the equation: The unnecessary idiocy involved. Families do not need pit bulls. There are plenty of other types of dogs they can welcome into their homes (meaning a pit bull ban is not terribly burdensome).
Families do not need all sorts of things that brings dangers. Except the fact that Pitties do not bring danger. They bring love. Space heaters kill more people and do more property damage, but we find that risk acceptable.

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Maybe it will be useful to clarify the parameters of the debate since so many people make this into a goddamn civil rights issue.

Supposing a ban on pit bulls did significantly reduce dog bite fatalities and serious injuries, would it be justified? (And keep in mind most of the fatalities do not involve owners like the woman in the OP but non-culpable victims -- mainly children and other animals -- who had no real choice in the matter.) Or is this still unfairly targeting all "pitties" because of a few bad actors?
I think we first have to define how many dog bite fatalities is too many? What is our level of risk. As I've been trying to point out, the number of attacks compared to what people would consider mundane, make the hysteria over pitties being uncontrollable killing machines a bit laughable. They do not seriously hurt a significant number of people, especially compared to other risks we willing accept, that the removal of one cause wouldn't make a difference in outcomes.

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This makes no sense. And instead of comparing a pit bull ban to knife prohibition, consider comparing pit bulls to switchblades.
Switchblades aren't that dangerous. The ban was not due to lethality, but who was the primary user. The good news, for me, is that Switchblades are legal in the great state of Texas. I can also carry a sword, for some reason. Yet the number of murders, deaths or injuries by such blades hasn't risen here. It's almost like the hysteria wasn't based on facts.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 09:22 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
I've been trying to get you to look at the total costs. And you've refused. The rates of incidents are so small, as to not be meaningful. Unlike your grenade example, Pit Bulls aren't inherently dangerous. The numbers prove it.
The numbers show the level of fatalities and severity of non-fatal injuries is way out of proportion to the number of PBs in the dog population.

Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Families do not need all sorts of things that brings dangers. Except the fact that Pitties do not bring danger. They bring love. Space heaters kill more people and do more property damage, but we find that risk acceptable.
Space heaters don't scramble over fences and attack passers-by, sometimes killing them.

The huge hole in your argument is that there are plenty of dogs that don't have the PB record for doing damage, so why get a PB? If a certain model of car behaved in this way it would be recalled, even though the total number of incidents might be low, because it suggests a design fault (that might never even raise its head on a particular car). PBs not only have a design fault but it's a fault that tends to harm people other than the owner.

Meanwhile - there's a lot more to it than fatalities. There's non-lethal attacks that require medical treatment. Once again - as linked previously - PB attacks requiring this are over-prevalent and more severe.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 09:52 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post

The huge hole in your argument is that there are plenty of dogs that don't have the PB record for doing damage, so why get a PB? If a certain model of car behaved in this way it would be recalled, even though the total number of incidents might be low, because it suggests a design fault (that might never even raise its head on a particular car). PBs not only have a design fault but it's a fault that tends to harm people other than the owner.
The huge hole in your argument is that all individual cars of a model have the same design and materials, and often come from the same plant.

This is not true for any living thing, certainly not dogs, and especially not pit bulls.

Also, if various professional engineering organizations look at the model and determine it doesn't in fact have a design flaw, this is no longer about an actual design flaw, but an irrational fear.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 10:08 AM   #208
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Experts talk about how this might have happened.
Quote:
A stimulus that triggered an aggressive reaction, a sudden change in the dogsí home life, behavioral changes that they might have been going through as they matured, or a combination of all of these, could have been contributing factors, experts say.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.195e0c87b910
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Old 22nd December 2017, 10:15 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The various pit bull types weren't bred for work but rather for sport - attacking bulls and dogs mainly. More recently they are bred for attacking feral pigs which is a form of hunting. They are still mostly using the same behavior and physical characteristics from when they were used to fight bulls.
A bit late but... To the dog hunting or fighting ARE work. The point remains that if you have a breed like this and don't give it the excercise and stimulation it needs then if going to start tearing stuff apart. If your lucky it will be your home.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 10:20 AM   #210
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I'm still on the "breed specific bāns are wrong" side of the argument ... but as far as analogies ... comparing dogs to grenades and knives is silly.

How about comparing the pit bulls to pet ownership of lions and tigers ... no one walks to the convenience store with their tiger off its leash, they are too big, dangerous, and scary, to most people.

Lions and Tigers are actually bānned as pets, in many locations, and even most places where they are allowed, you need a special "exotic pet" license or permit of some kind.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 10:33 AM   #211
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Regarding leashes... I've said before, and I'll say it again: All dogs should be on non-retractable leashes when not in an enclosed space. That's not a breed thing, that's for the safety of the dog as much as for people.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 10:39 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
Add in the fact dog ownership in the US is almost twice the level of the UK .... and population is 5 times higher,... and the US has almost 100 million dogs ... the UK only has abut 8.5 million.

This brings the per capita figures much closer.
The difference in fatality rate is nearly 17:1, that's still 1.5 times the rate that the dog ownership numbers explain, and the UK has a has a higher population density which I would have expected to skew the figures the other way. Over here you're considered to be in the arse end of nowhere if it's a twenty minute drive to the nearest supermarket not your nearest neighbour. As I mentioned, this is also an area where I'd have thought that gun ownership might have had a positive impact on the figures.

Anecdotally, The Don's experience (and I've heard similar sentiments expressed elsewhere) are quite shocking to me.I can't imagine a British runner or cyclist being so accepting of such a situation.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 10:45 AM   #213
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I read about this the other day and was waiting for it to show up here for some reasoned discussion on the matter.

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to go elsewhere for that. Some of you people exhibit pathetic critical thinking skills with regard to animals.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 11:00 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Varanid View Post
I read about this the other day and was waiting for it to show up here for some reasoned discussion on the matter.

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to go elsewhere for that. Some of you people exhibit pathetic critical thinking skills with regard to animals.
Toodles.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 11:31 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Regarding leashes... I've said before, and I'll say it again: All dogs should be on non-retractable leashes when not in an enclosed space. That's not a breed thing, that's for the safety of the dog as much as for people.
In virtually every municipality in Canada those retractable leashes can only be used on private land that is fenced, "Leash" is a legal term and defined by a specific length at the start of every by-law ... why one earth by-laws are written but never enforced I'll never know
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Old 22nd December 2017, 11:34 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
The difference in fatality rate is nearly 17:1, that's still 1.5 times the rate that the dog ownership numbers explain, and the UK has a has a higher population density which I would have expected to skew the figures the other way. Over here you're considered to be in the arse end of nowhere if it's a twenty minute drive to the nearest supermarket not your nearest neighbour. As I mentioned, this is also an area where I'd have thought that gun ownership might have had a positive impact on the figures.

Anecdotally, The Don's experience (and I've heard similar sentiments expressed elsewhere) are quite shocking to me.I can't imagine a British runner or cyclist being so accepting of such a situation.
Yes till a significant difference considering all facts and stats.

... and YES I agree ... in the city dog owners here in Canada would NEVER get away with a runner being bitten .. and in rural areas people often take the into their own hand.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 11:35 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
In virtually every municipality in Canada those retractable leashes can only be used on private land that is fenced, "Leash" is a legal term and defined by a specific length at the start of every by-law ... why one earth by-laws are written but never enforced I'll never know
Most municipalities I've lived in have leash laws, but few of them bother to enforce it unless it's part of other charges (like if a dog gets loose and attacks someone). Even fewer of them bother defining what's meant by a "leash" or try to restrict retractables.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 11:57 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
....

From a sheer frightening point of view, the dogs on leashes are often worse, snarling and jumping and being a trip hazard.
Not only is this an unsupportable anecdote, it almost certainly has been affected by selective memory.

My dog was seriously injured on two separate occasions by off-leash dogs. Got any stats on injuries from bites or runners tripping over the leash of a leashed dog?
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Old 22nd December 2017, 12:04 PM   #219
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Agree with SG on the benefits of leashes. A good leash is all that's protecting our neighborhood from a half-crazy pit-bull (head-injury with scar, hit by car) that barks viciously at anything that gets too near it.

I went from resenting it that we couldn't have that dog put down to accepting that as long as they have it firmly on a leash -- and the man is not totally stumbling drunk when he's walking it -- everything is ok as long as you stay 10 feet or more away.

Get any closer and the dog threatens to kill you, in pitty language.

I saw the man, stumbling drunk, sick the dog -- on the leash -- on some noisy high-school kids who were minding their own business. The pit thought otherwise.

Those are the kinds of people who own pits around here, far as I can tell. There was just a kid killed by pits last week. Go for a walk in a public park, walk by someone with a pit -- it will bite you.

That's Boston.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 12:07 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Most municipalities I've lived in have leash laws, but few of them bother to enforce it unless it's part of other charges (like if a dog gets loose and attacks someone). Even fewer of them bother defining what's meant by a "leash" or try to restrict retractables.
I've never understood the appeal. It doesn't take many walks to figure out that having one's dog under tight control is absolutely the way to go, if only to keep it from wandering into the street. Similarly, I don't get people who let dogs frustrate them by stopping to sniff everything. Keep walking, give a tug at the leash when necessary, and when the dog actually needs to cop a squat it'll do so. Ceding control over activities to your dog is the worst thing you can do for it.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 12:10 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Regarding leashes... I've said before, and I'll say it again: All dogs should be on non-retractable leashes when not in an enclosed space. That's not a breed thing, that's for the safety of the dog as much as for people.
QFT
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Old 22nd December 2017, 12:11 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
The huge hole in your argument is that all individual cars of a model have the same design and materials, and often come from the same plant.

This is not true for any living thing, certainly not dogs, and especially not pit bulls.

Also, if various professional engineering organizations look at the model and determine it doesn't in fact have a design flaw, this is no longer about an actual design flaw, but an irrational fear.
Sorry- not a good argument. Not all cars prone to a defect actually have that defect. Many of the cars in a recall, for example, (perhaps most) prove not to have the problem for which the recall is issued. But recalls are nonetheless important for safety, right?

If a particular model of a car or dog is prone to a defect that is a serious concern that must be taken into account by the owner. One can often bring in a car of a model prone to a specific defect to an expert and find out if that particular one has the defect or not. How many PBs are tested equivalently?

Also if you wish to go with a car metaphor: a given car model can have a defect that only becomes evident under rare conditions: an emergency turn, quick braking in wet conditions, deployment of an air bag, etc. The same is true of dogs. Dog breeds prone to aggression* may not show that for years- until a rare circumstance (i.e. a child wearing certain clothes and approaching the dog in a particular manner, perhaps) triggers it. And the response of the owner is always- "Oh, but he was always such a sweetheart! I just don't understand why he ripped Johnie's face off..."

*Of course this can happen with a dog breed not prone to aggression too. But come on- certainly some breeds have specifically been breed to be aggressive and domineering. And have the power to do a lot more damage than smaller, weaker dogs.

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Old 22nd December 2017, 12:15 PM   #223
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The WP article made a good point. The issue is with breeds that have strong muscles and jaws. Little dogs bite but don't kill. Pit bulls are able to kill. So it's not the breed per se, it's the size and musculature.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 12:21 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Sorry- not a good argument. Not all cars prone to a defect actually have that defect. Many of the cars in a recall, for example, (perhaps most) prove not to have the problem for which the recall is issued. But recalls are nonetheless important for safety, right?

If a particular model of a car or dog is prone to a defect that is a serious concern that must be taken into account by the owner.
As I said, though, we have a situation where a number of experts in the field have examined the evidence and have not found that breed is an indication of violent behavior.

So if the engineers and mechanics don't see a defect, maybe there's no defect?

Quote:
One can often bring in a car of a model prone to a specific defect to an expert and find out if that particular one has the defect or not. How many PBs are tested equivalently?
I can only speak for my personal experience, but all the rescue groups that I've worked with/paid attention to/given money to of do behavioral testing before adopting the dogs out.


Quote:
Also if you wish to go with a car metaphor:
My entire point was that the car metaphor was faulty, so not really.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 12:24 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The WP article made a good point. The issue is with breeds that have strong muscles and jaws. Little dogs bite but don't kill. Pit bulls are able to kill. So it's not the breed per se, it's the size and musculature.
This is true of all medium/large dogs.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 12:24 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Regarding leashes... I've said before, and I'll say it again: All dogs should be on non-retractable leashes when not in an enclosed space. That's not a breed thing, that's for the safety of the dog as much as for people.
I agree here. And not only for the physical safety of both, but for the emotional "safety" of the people. There are many people afraid of dogs, rationally or not, and encountering dog under control on a leash is significantly less frightening for these people than encountering a loose dog.

I love dogs and I grew up with them (mostly retrievers and setters). But even so, I am bothered when I am approached outdoors by a strange dog with the owner hundreds of feet away. My health and safety is now under the control of the strange dog and subject to whatever ideas might get into its head. I have no idea about its training or disposition, or how the dog views me;I just have to hope for the best, which is a very unfair position for the owner to place me in.

I cannot tell you the number of times that a strange loose dog has approached me aggressively, snarling or growling, or just barking up a storm (I realize barking is not necessarily aggressive). I am left thinking about how I should stand and what I should say to defuse the situation. And almost always, when the owner at long last catches up to the dog, the owner doesn't apologize but instead tells me, "Oh, booboo is such a sweetie. Don't worry, baby face wouldn't hurt a fly!" Yeah sure...

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Old 22nd December 2017, 12:25 PM   #227
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Pitbull owners should have to get license to own a deadly weapon.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 12:27 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Pitbull owners should have to get license to own a deadly weapon.
I got my GWL last year. Feel better?
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Old 22nd December 2017, 12:30 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
As I said, though, we have a situation where a number of experts in the field have examined the evidence and have not found that breed is an indication of violent behavior.

So if the engineers and mechanics don't see a defect, maybe there's no defect?



I can only speak for my personal experience, but all the rescue groups that I've worked with/paid attention to/given money to of do behavioral testing before adopting the dogs out.




My entire point was that the car metaphor was faulty, so not really.
I have specifically noted that PBs are a breed that was bred to be aggressive and powerful. Is that in dispute? Given that, I would want a lot more statistics to believe that somehow the first trait is magically gone from the dogs who are derived from that lineage. Frankly it seems to me like denying that boarder collies typically like to herd things, or that Newfoundlands typically like water. But I am happy to await future data in terms of aggressiveness. In contrast, the powerful part and the ability to do a lot of damage to someone or another animal very quickly is not debatable.

As to the rescue groups- I think that is great (assuming the testing is accurate and applies to almost all situations that might confront the dog in the future). But how many PBs "out there" have passed through rescue groups? For that matter- is aggressiveness a typical reason cited for why PB's are abandoned by their original owners and end up in rescue groups?

Last edited by Giordano; 22nd December 2017 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 12:33 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Anywhere you run near dogs who are running free, you're going to get bitten now and again.



Yes, regularly. Most runners I know get a nip or two every year.

Referring to them as attacks is hyperbole on my part. These aren't jaws-round-the-jugular attacks, they're excited and/or angry dogs biting at the legs of the moving prey species as they go past.

From a sheer frightening point of view, the dogs on leashes are often worse, snarling and jumping and being a trip hazard.
Seriously? I've never been bit after decades of running near dogs on and off leash. I've been moderately menaced but never bit.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 12:43 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Pitbull owners should have to get license to own a deadly weapon.
Oddly I think that for some PB owners (specially not the forum members on this thread) the motivation for owning a PB and for owning a gun is similar: they want the sense of power and of specialness that comes from having and controlling a dangerous possession. "Look at me- I have this dangerous big dog and (1) I can have it rip out your throat if only I give the command, and (2) I am even more powerful than it because it obeys me, not the other way around. Ha, ha, ha- I am avery important person to be reckoned with!"

I don't know how many owners feel this way, but it is my sense that at least some individuals do and that although I dislike pop-psychology it is hard to deny that many criminals and gang members enjoy the accompanying sense of personal power and the ability to intimidate others.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 12:55 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I have specifically noted that PBs are a breed that was bred to be aggressive and powerful. Is that in dispute?
It's not so much in dispute as "it's a lot more complicated than that."

Pitties do not come from a single population. They're not even a single *breed*. And there's been a century of breeding with other dogs, mostly without any sort of pedigree or documentation. Over the decades, some people have even created new "pit bull" lines from scratch by breeding bulldogs and terriers.

The end result of this is that there's a lot more genetic diversity in "pit bull" type dogs than you're giving credit for.

It is quite literally impossible to establish that all current pits come from a population that was bred to be aggressive towards people or other dogs, and it's just as impossible to determine if those traits are present in living dogs without testing the dogs individually. There's too much junk in there to know.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 01:10 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post

Anecdotally, The Don's experience (and I've heard similar sentiments expressed elsewhere) are quite shocking to me. I can't imagine a British runner or cyclist being so accepting of such a situation.
Possibly bad land use decisions? We have one nearby off-leash dog park that was established right next to a riverside trail commonly used as a running path. No fence or anything between them and the signage doesnít even make it clear if the off leach area ends at the trail or not. I still have no issues taking my 2 hyperactive chocolate labs there but itís a recipe for friction on both sides.

Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Most municipalities I've lived in have leash laws, but few of them bother to enforce it unless it's part of other charges (like if a dog gets loose and attacks someone). Even fewer of them bother defining what's meant by a "leash" or try to restrict retractables.
The only place Iíve heard of animal services actually catching someone for violating leash laws is in the parking lots of off-leash dog parks. Catching people in the act of disobeying the law would likely be the main issue.

I guess Iím fortunate on that front since both my labs have knack for escape and it's not like I'm not aware or don't try to stop them. Fortunately they really just want to go greet the people they see and give them kisses, but there other risks as well beyond them biting someone. The point here is that even if you are careful dogs have minds of their own and don't know about leash laws, so just "make sure they are on a leash" is necessary, but not necessarily sufficient.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 01:16 PM   #234
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Sorry, I was answering before you put this in:

Originally Posted by Giordano
As to the rescue groups- I think that is great (assuming the testing is accurate and applies to almost all situations that might confront the dog in the future). But how many PBs "out there" have passed through rescue groups?
Not many; too damn few, tbh. Part of that is simply that the rescues are swamped, and there are way more pits in shelters than the rescues are able to accomodate.

Full disclosure: Our dogs did not come through rescues. They were both dumped and informally rescued after trying to find their "real" owners.

Quote:
For that matter- is aggressiveness a typical reason cited for why PB's are abandoned by their original owners and end up in rescue groups?
Again, I want to be clear about the fact that I'm only speaking from personal experience.

In Georgia, most of the various rescue groups generally pull their animals from animal control rather than having the animals surrendered to them directly. Many of them won't even accept surrenders, unless the dog came from them in the first place. This isn't just pit rescues, but the lab rescues, beagle rescues, and so on. (The greyhound rescues have a different process, due to the whole racing thing.)

So a lot of the time, the rescues have no earthly idea why a dog was abandoned.

I will say this, from my experience among pit bull advocates, there is little agreement on most issues. There are conservative christians, atheist socialists, and all shades inbetween. Nevertheless, there is widespread agreement that:

1. There are too many pitties in shelters
2. Backyard breeders should be shut down
3. Unless you're an accredited breeder, get your dogs fixed
4. There should probably be fewer accredited breeders, too, at least until #1 is resolved
5. Anyone who gets a dog to "look tough" is a royal douchebag
6. Dogfighting is evil, and the people who engage in it should have horrible things done to their naughty bits
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Old 22nd December 2017, 01:31 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The WP article made a good point. The issue is with breeds that have strong muscles and jaws. Little dogs bite but don't kill. Pit bulls are able to kill. So it's not the breed per se, it's the size and musculature.
Nah. While it raises the stakes, most dogs really just want to be friends with everyone.

The problem comes when you combine that size and jaw strength with a Terrier (typically a small dog)instinct to kill whatever it can get its jaws on. Watch a few videos of terriers ratting, the things get real joy from killing . I have no issue with this in working dogs, but cross breading this instinct into a bigger more powerful version and calling it a house pet is wrong, dangerous and unnecessary.

I have no problem with responsible owners rescuing and rehabilitating these dogs, but production of new puppies needs to stop. Much of the market for these puppies is sociopaths who think itís cool to own a dangerous animal and it's the dogs that usually suffer most.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 01:34 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
... Anyone who gets a dog to "look tough" is a royal douchebag...
I sort of did that. Not for me to look tough, but to scare away would-be robbers. For good reason, but that's another story.

In no way, shape or form am I training him to be a guard dog -- quite the opposite.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 01:39 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
As I said, though, we have a situation where a number of experts in the field have examined the evidence and have not found that breed is an indication of violent behavior.
I disagree thatís what they found. They mostly seem to be arguing that they can be relatively safe with proper socialization, training and respect for leash laws. While these are all good things for all dogs, it doesnít follow from this that the breed doesnít matter or that some breeds are not more prone to violent behavior.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 01:44 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
This is true of all medium/large dogs.
Exactly.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 01:52 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
I disagree thatís what they found. They mostly seem to be arguing that they can be relatively safe with proper socialization, training and respect for leash laws. While these are all good things for all dogs, it doesnít follow from this that the breed doesnít matter or that some breeds are not more prone to violent behavior.
Not so much.

Originally Posted by AVMA, quoting Duffy
The substantial within-breed variationÖsuggests that it is inappropriate to make predictions about a given dog's propensity for aggressive behavior based solely on its breed.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 01:54 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Exactly.
I think you're going to have a tall order if you want to restrict the breeding of dogs over 40 lbs or so.
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