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Old 27th December 2017, 11:39 AM   #321
Bob001
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
The International Skeptics Forum, where we quote the best scare statistics we can Google and make gun analogies instead of looking at research, studies, or relevant expert organisation guidelines. Checks out.

This AVSAB position paper goes over the error in relying on bite statistics, the problems with breed specific legislation, the unintended consequences, the evidence that there are not "dangerous breeds", etc. But none of this is news.
.....

I think we get that any particular dog can display any particular kind of behavior based on its particular training and treatment. Maybe "pit bulls" (however defined) are no more likely than others to display aggressiveness. But unlike Jack Russells, Chow Chows, etc., it seems clear that when a pit bull does attack (and "attack" is way beyond "displays aggressiveness") it is more likely to do severe damage because of its musculature, jaw structure and strength, and in-bred "bite and hold" instinct.

This anti-pit bull site claims that 65% of all fatal dog attacks were by pit bulls. Are they wrong?
https://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-st...ities-2016.php
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Old 27th December 2017, 11:48 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
and in-bred "bite and hold" instinct.
People keep repeating this assertion, despite not having substantiated it.

I've seen Butch (our 80-lb pit) kill a possum, and it didn't look any different from when I've seen greyhounds get a squirrel or when our lab mix got a mole.

Quote:
This anti-pit bull site claims that 65% of all fatal dog attacks were by pit bulls. Are they wrong?
https://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-st...ities-2016.php
Dogsbite is not a good place to find accurate information.
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Old 27th December 2017, 12:32 PM   #323
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Sorry, Cleon. That's an anecdote that can easily be refuted.

I have tried to stay out of this thread as I have owned a pure American pit. I'll add my anecdote as a response:

I loved my dog. He could be the most loyal companion and most docile creature ever. He could also be quite hostile to outsiders that had never come around before (being as I lived, as a kid, about 15 miles from any civilization, this wasn't really a training thing....he was just very rarely exposed to different people).

One day, he chased down an armadillo, which had begun burrowing to get away. It was sort of disturbing to see this as an 8-year old. He grabbed it by the tail which was the only exposed part when he finally got it, pulled it out of the hole and with one jaw crunch, killed it. The disturbing part was mostly the fact that his large jaw size allowed him to crush the entire armadillo shell in one bite.

Can they be great dogs? Of course. But when they do damage, they do it....

WELL.
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Old 27th December 2017, 12:37 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
Sorry, Cleon. That's an anecdote that can easily be refuted.
Help me out here, how does your anecdote "refute" mine?

ETA to clarify:

Why is your observation of your dog apply to the breed as a whole, but my observation of my dog is just an indication of my dog as an individual?
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Old 27th December 2017, 12:46 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Help me out here, how does your anecdote "refute" mine?

All it tells me is that these dogs are individuals and should be treated as such.
You seem to be quite good at avoiding the subject of how much damage these dogs do when they do attack.

Very few other breeds inflict the horrific injuries or cause deaths that pit bulls do.

Especially there tendency to do it to kids

But I guess you will say that is just bad owners.
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Old 27th December 2017, 12:50 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
You seem to be quite good at avoiding the subject of how much damage these dogs do when they do attack.
Because nobody has yet provided evidence that pits do more damage when they attack than any other similarly-sized breed.

The fact that big dogs do a lot of damage when they attack is not in dispute.

Quote:
Especially there tendency to do it to kids
We'll just put that on the "unsupported assertions" pile with all the others.

Quote:
But I guess you will say that is just bad owners.
I haven't used that phrase at all this thread. Enjoy burning the straw.
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Old 27th December 2017, 12:51 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Help me out here, how does your anecdote "refute" mine?

ETA to clarify:

Why is your observation of your dog apply to the breed as a whole, but my observation of my dog is just an indication of my dog as an individual?
Neither does. That is exactly the point. But as the previous poster has pointed out, it really isn't about whether the dog "breed" is statistically more violent or aggressive. The real point that a lot of posters are making is that, when **** does go wrong, with pitties, it can go really wrong quickly, more so than most other types of dog.

ETA: I have owned quite a few large breed dogs. The pit was the only one that could probably stick a human head in its mouth. I loved that dog, but he really could hurt someone horribly, if inclined to do so, and nobody would be able to stop him short of killing him.

Last edited by Crawtator; 27th December 2017 at 12:54 PM. Reason: ETA!
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Old 27th December 2017, 12:54 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
You'd be effectively banning the ownership of whippets, Greyhounds and most other sighthounds for all those that don't have a large, private, enclosed space of their own. Dogs like that need to run and, for most dogs, it's borderline abuse not to give them the opportunity to do so.
I've got a lurcher. Completely agree. And in the UK virtually no-one has a big enough yard to be the only off lead area for even a small dog so that would effectively be banning almost all dog owners who care that their dogs are excercised. Fortunately over here having dogs off lead in recreational areas is par for the course. About half of Bert's walks I don't actually use his lead.
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Old 27th December 2017, 12:54 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
Neither does. That is exactly the point. But as the previous poster has pointed out, it really isn't about whether the dog "breed" is statistically more violent or aggressive.
Why do people keep saying it's not about whether pits are more aggressive, when the very post you're referring to also says this?

Quote:
Especially there tendency to do it to kids
The question of whether pits are more aggressive has come up repeatedly, often from the some people who say it's not about whether pits are more aggressive.


Quote:
The real point that a lot of posters are making is that, when **** does go wrong, with pitties, it can go really wrong quickly, more so than most other types of dog.
Nobody has yet provided evidence that pits do more damage when they attack than any other similarly-sized dog.
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Old 27th December 2017, 01:07 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Police, it seems, were reluctant to release the full details until it was cleared with relatives.

Virginia's Bethany Stephens was, it seems, mauled to death by her pair of pitbulls, dogs she'd raised from puppies. When police attended the scene they (5 of them) found the dogs chewing on her ribcage.

This woman doesn't appear to be a drug-crazed, dog-abusing thug. While family, friends and even a professional or two initially stepped in to suggest she'd been murdered or killed by a bear, the eventual police statement appears to rule this out.

There's something seriously wrong with this breed, and other closely related breeds.

link
Pit bulls are so strong it's scary. They can flatten a tire with their teeth. A friend of mines son breeds these dogs and one day after he was away and got home one dog had killed the other and it was a bloody gory sight.

I wouldn't own one.
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Old 27th December 2017, 01:15 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I've got a lurcher. Completely agree. And in the UK virtually no-one has a big enough yard to be the only off lead area for even a small dog so that would effectively be banning almost all dog owners who care that their dogs are excercised.
Or, it might effectively ban caring dog owners from having dogs that are inappropriate for their home situation. That sounds like it could be a good thing.
Quote:
Fortunately over here having dogs off lead in recreational areas is par for the course. About half of Bert's walks I don't actually use his lead.
"Fortunately?" Man, I'm glad we have leash laws where I live. I love dogs and I still don't want to be out for a walk and have a stranger's unleashed dog near me. I often don't want off-leash human strangers near me.
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Old 27th December 2017, 01:17 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Because nobody has yet provided evidence that pits do more damage when they attack than any other similarly-sized breed.

The fact that big dogs do a lot of damage when they attack is not in dispute.



We'll just put that on the "unsupported assertions" pile with all the others.



I haven't used that phrase at all this thread. Enjoy burning the straw.
You don't seem to look very hard

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4261032/


Quote:
Abstract

Purpose

To identify which patients and canines are involved in dog bites of the head and neck, and how they impact health systems.

Materials and Methods

This is a single center, retrospective cohort study conducted from January 2012 to June 2013 from an academic, tertiary care center situated between multiple suburban and urban communities. Patients were identified by queried search for all bite-related diagnoses codes.

Results

334 unique dog bites were identified, of which 101 involved the head and neck. The mean patient age was 15.1 years ± 18.1. Of the more than 8 different breeds identified, one-third were caused by pit bull terriers and resulted in the highest rate of consultation (94%) and had 5 times the relative rate of surgical intervention. Unlike all other breeds, pit bull terriers were relatively more likely to attack an unknown individual (+31%), and without provocation (+48%). Injuries of the head and neck had an average follow-up of 1.26 ± 2.4 visits, and average specialty follow-up of 3.1 ± 3.5 visits.

Conclusions

The patients most likely to suffer dog bite injuries of the head and neck are children. Although a number of dog breeds were identified, the largest group were pit bull terriers, whose resultant injuries were more severe and resulted from unprovoked, unknown dogs. More severe injuries required a greater number of interventions, a greater number of inpatient physicians, and more outpatient follow-up encounters. Healthcare utilization and costs associated with dog bites warrant further investigation.
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Old 27th December 2017, 01:17 PM   #333
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https://www.caninejournal.com/dog-bite-statistics/

In case you thought I was just picking on pits...

I would be wary of any of the dogs on this list (the bite strength list). They are all capable of vast amounts of damage when they do exhibit hostility, regardless of the statistical likelihood of actually exhibiting that behavior. I'm really not understanding why you can't see this: a large dog that attacks .01% of the time and a small dog that attacks .01% of the time are not the same when it comes to protecting the public from the possibility of the outcome.

Cleon: are you telling me that you would react the same way to a slightly aggressive Doberman as compared to a slightly aggressive Chihuahua? If so, methinks you are being slightly disingenuous. Those are two very different scenarios, one of which could lead to death and one that could lead to a punted dog.
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Old 27th December 2017, 01:22 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
https://www.caninejournal.com/dog-bite-statistics/

In case you thought I was just picking on pits...

I would be wary of any of the dogs on this list (the bite strength list). They are all capable of vast amounts of damage when they do exhibit hostility, regardless of the statistical likelihood of actually exhibiting that behavior. I'm really not understanding why you can't see this: a large dog that attacks .01% of the time and a small dog that attacks .01% of the time are not the same when it comes to protecting the public from the possibility of the outcome.
To quote what I said again:

Quote:
Nobody has yet provided evidence that pits do more damage when they attack than any other similarly-sized dog.
If you want to be wary of big dogs, be wary of big dogs. If you want to claim that pits do more damage than other large dogs, pony up some evidence. If you want to legally restrict my dogs based on said claim, pony up a LOT of evidence.

Quote:
Cleon: are you telling me that you would react the same way to a slightly aggressive Doberman as compared to a slightly aggressive Chihuahua? If so, methinks you are being slightly disingenuous. Those are two very different scenarios, one of which could lead to death and one that could lead to a punted dog.
Wow, it's a veritable straw bonfire in here.
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Old 27th December 2017, 01:23 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I'm sure you spent a lot of time googling that, but it doesn't support your assertion. Try again, sparky.
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Old 27th December 2017, 01:27 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
I'm sure you spent a lot of time googling that, but it doesn't support your assertion. Try again, sparky.
About 2 minutes

What that they do massive damage and tend to go for kids

Which bit doesn't say this
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Old 27th December 2017, 01:33 PM   #337
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http://dogs.petbreeds.com/compare/58...t-Bull-Terrier

Here you go. Similarly sized dogs. Important to see the graph on attacks involving bodily injury, maiming or deaths. And do follows the source links. And I quote:

" Animals 24-7
Data Sets:

Dog Attacks Data.
As of December 31, 2015; refreshed Annually.
Compiled by the editor of ANIMALS 24-7 from press accounts since 1982, this table covers only attacks by dogs of clearly identified breed type or ancestry, as designated by animal control officers or others with evident expertise, who have been kept as pets. All accounts are cross-checked by date, location, and identity of the victim."
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Old 27th December 2017, 01:34 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
About 2 minutes
You probably should've read it rather than just regurgitating it.

Quote:
What that they do massive damage and tend to go for kids

Which bit doesn't say this
A study about dog bite victims is not a study about dog breeds. Nothing in the study indicates that pit bulls have a tendency to attack children. It says that children are the largest group of dog bite victims, and that a lot of the dogs are allegedly* pit bulls.

* The study doesn't go into detail of how they were identified, because it's not a study about dog breeds.
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Old 27th December 2017, 01:36 PM   #339
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http://dogs.petbreeds.com/compare/95...t-Bull-Terrier

I'm not sure how many big breeds you want me to post before you see that there is a significant statistical difference here...
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Old 27th December 2017, 01:39 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
I'm sure you spent a lot of time googling that, but it doesn't support your assertion. Try again, sparky.
When I see this in a post I do not take the post or the poster seriously.
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Old 27th December 2017, 01:40 PM   #341
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http://dogs.petbreeds.com/l/142/Siberian-Husky

About halfway down the page is a comparison graph showing huskies versus similar "breeds".

I'm not sure how this is hard to see statistically.
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Old 27th December 2017, 01:40 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
http://dogs.petbreeds.com/compare/58...t-Bull-Terrier

Here you go. Similarly sized dogs. Important to see the graph on attacks involving bodily injury, maiming or deaths. And do follows the source links. And I quote:

" Animals 24-7
Data Sets:

Dog Attacks Data.
As of December 31, 2015; refreshed Annually.
Compiled by the editor of ANIMALS 24-7 from press accounts since 1982, this table covers only attacks by dogs of clearly identified breed type or ancestry, as designated by animal control officers or others with evident expertise, who have been kept as pets. All accounts are cross-checked by date, location, and identity of the victim."
Choice quote:

Quote:
With Kids: The American Pit Bull Terrier is better for kids. It can grow up with them and become a great family pet.


But seriously, that page doesn't compare the damaging effects of Doberman attacks (which it claims have numbered as "0," which I find unlikely) to pit bull attacks, so I'm not sure what you think you're substantiating here.
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Old 27th December 2017, 01:42 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
http://dogs.petbreeds.com/l/142/Siberian-Husky

About halfway down the page is a comparison graph showing huskies versus similar "breeds".

I'm not sure how this is hard to see statistically.
Yes, I see that you've figured out how to use the petbreeds.com site.

I don't think it's giving the information that you seem to think it is.
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Old 27th December 2017, 01:44 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
When I see this in a post I do not take the post or the poster seriously.
Thanks for sharing.
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Old 27th December 2017, 01:47 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
You probably should've read it rather than just regurgitating it.



A study about dog bite victims is not a study about dog breeds. Nothing in the study indicates that pit bulls have a tendency to attack children. It says that children are the largest group of dog bite victims, and that a lot of the dogs are allegedly* pit bulls.

* The study doesn't go into detail of how they were identified, because it's not a study about dog breeds.
This is called being impartial as to the breeds

It's the obvious way to study damage by dogs

To actually take ALL damage by dogs and compare them

It doesn't give you your easy outs to argue how biased it is

Tough luck
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Old 27th December 2017, 01:50 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
This is called being impartial as to the breeds

It's the obvious way to study damage by dogs

To actually take ALL damage by dogs and compare them
Did you mean to quote a different article, then?

Because the one you linked to doesn't do that or even pretend to. That's not the point of the study at all.

Quote:
Tough luck
Indeed. Try again.
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Old 27th December 2017, 01:50 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Choice quote:





But seriously, that page doesn't compare the damaging effects of Doberman attacks (which it claims have numbered as "0," which I find unlikely) to pit bull attacks, so I'm not sure what you think you're substantiating here.
Didn't bother mousing over, eh? Try again..."sparky". The Doberman is so much lower on the frequency list it only appears to be 0. Thanks for making my point for me. And as far as the "not friendly for kids" argument, I completely agree with you. My pit was the greatest large dog I've ever owned and it died when I was 12. I still miss it. But I won't pretend it was just a little fuzzball. That thing could hurt someone seriously.
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Old 27th December 2017, 01:51 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
People keep repeating this assertion, despite not having substantiated it.

I've seen Butch (our 80-lb pit) kill a possum, and it didn't look any different from when I've seen greyhounds get a squirrel or when our lab mix got a mole.



Dogsbite is not a good place to find accurate information.
I looked at your linked site and followed the links on that t site. There are many opinions provided but very few statistics. If the statistics on Dogsbite are incorrect I would be interested to see the statistics corrected. Is there a reliable sit where this has been done?
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Old 27th December 2017, 01:53 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Thanks for sharing.
My pleasure.
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Old 27th December 2017, 02:03 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Or, it might effectively ban caring dog owners from having dogs that are inappropriate for their home situation. That sounds like it could be a good thing.
"Fortunately?" Man, I'm glad we have leash laws where I live. I love dogs and I still don't want to be out for a walk and have a stranger's unleashed dog near me. I often don't want off-leash human strangers near me.
No. In the UK it would mean that almost the only people who could own dogs would be the people who didn't care about exercising them. Most UK houses have tiny gardens.

My dog is walked between three and ten miles every day. Is well trained, up to date on his shots, regularly checked by the vet, well fed and has never caused any problems to anyone, but you think that the fact I can't afford a half million pound house makes mean uncaring dog owner?

Incidentally, my dog is welcomed into my local pub (a private business) off lead, all the staff and regulars know him by name and make a point of coming over to say hello to him. On one occasion someone's brat of a child kicked him as he slept, he never even growled.Now obviously there's a cultural difference here because in the UK we don't find dogs off leash in areas like parks, fields, public walks to be a big deal. Most of us allow our dogs to socialised and play with other dogs. On the other hand we don't treat being bitten by dogs as the accepted price of going jogging either...
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Old 27th December 2017, 02:13 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Did you mean to quote a different article, then?

Because the one you linked to doesn't do that or even pretend to. That's not the point of the study at all.



Indeed. Try again.
So just to be clear you are saying all the 10s of thousands of people that hunt wild boar using pit bulls for the very reason that they go for the head and their jaws are strong enough to hold on are all wrong?

They should just take poodles
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Old 27th December 2017, 02:47 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
Didn't bother mousing over, eh? Try again..."sparky".
Actually, mousing over didn't work in the browser I was using.

Quote:
The Doberman is so much lower on the frequency list it only appears to be 0. Thanks for making my point for me.
Wait, so you're talking about the frequency of attacks?

That's not going to tell you anything about whether the damage of pit bull attacks is better or worse than the effects of other similarly sized breeds.

Somehow, I think you know that, though.


Quote:
And as far as the "not friendly for kids" argument, I completely agree with you. My pit was the greatest large dog I've ever owned and it died when I was 12. I still miss it. But I won't pretend it was just a little fuzzball. That thing could hurt someone seriously.
...as could any large dog.
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Old 27th December 2017, 02:52 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
So just to be clear you are saying
What's that about a "rule of so?"

Quote:
all the 10s of thousands of people that hunt wild boar using pit bulls for
Tens of thousands, eh?

Quote:
the very reason that they go for the head and their jaws are strong enough to hold on are all wrong?
I'm not a hunter, so I can only go by what hunters say. According to this site, the reason they use pits for catch dogs is:

Quote:
Because of their determination, Pit Bulls are ideal hog hunting dogs. Their stamina and athleticism make them perfect catch dogs.

When the boar has been bayed, the Pit Bull comes out and goes up against the hog, grabbing and holding it until the hunter can catch up and take down the hog.
Seems rather at odds with the whole "go for the head" thing, but I'm sure you know more than they do.
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Old 27th December 2017, 02:58 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
What's that about a "rule of so?"



Tens of thousands, eh?



I'm not a hunter, so I can only go by what hunters say. According to this site, the reason they use pits for catch dogs is:



Seems rather at odds with the whole "go for the head" thing, but I'm sure you know more than they do.
Your right it is probably more than 10s of thousands

What else do you think they go for given the pigs tusks if the head was free would tear the dogs side open
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Old 27th December 2017, 03:00 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Your right it is probably more than 10s of thousands
If you say so. I'd ask for evidence, but I know better.

Quote:
What else do you think they go for given the pigs tusks if the head was free would tear the dogs side open
Could you please use some sort of punctuation? I honestly can't parse what you're trying to say here.
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Old 27th December 2017, 03:10 PM   #356
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"Here is what pit bull breeder, expert, advocate Diane Jessup has to say on the unique bite style of bulldogs.

There are aspects of ring sport which put the bulldog at a disadvantage when competing against sheepdogs like shepherds and malinois. The sport requires the dog, at times, to bite and then quickly release and retreat - something no true bulldog is willing to do. Also, biting the leg, which is considered preferable, takes more training for a bulldog who will naturally shun the extremities in favor of the more "courageous" bites to the body. A bulldog is bred to grip the head of its prey - whereas a sheepdog nips the legs. "

link (which also dispels PB myths such as 'locking jaws', but concedes that PBs have a distinctive bite style.

For the fiftieth time the same point is made - a point cheerfully supported by PB breeders, fanciers and experts-

If they attack:
PBs go for the head
PBs don't let go
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Old 27th December 2017, 03:19 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
"Here is what pit bull breeder, expert, advocate Diane Jessup has to say on the unique bite style of bulldogs.

There are aspects of ring sport which put the bulldog at a disadvantage when competing against sheepdogs like shepherds and malinois. The sport requires the dog, at times, to bite and then quickly release and retreat - something no true bulldog is willing to do. Also, biting the leg, which is considered preferable, takes more training for a bulldog who will naturally shun the extremities in favor of the more "courageous" bites to the body. A bulldog is bred to grip the head of its prey - whereas a sheepdog nips the legs. "
Does that sound like an English bulldog to you? It doesn't to me.

So maybe there's more here than just "bulldog = bitey."



Quote:
link (which also dispels PB myths such as 'locking jaws', but concedes that PBs have a distinctive bite style.
It actually doesn't dispel the locking jaws myth, it endorses it wholeheartedly:

Quote:
Those of us who have first hand experience of their locking jaws know the truth. Anyone who follows pit bull attacks in the media and still believes their jaws do NOT lock is lying to themselves.
That's from the same article you quoted, just a little farther down.

That entire site is based on slamming pit bulls, pit bull owners, and anyone who doesn't think pit bulls are literally evil. I can see why you like it.
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Old 27th December 2017, 03:33 PM   #358
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I haven't seen very many posters on here wholeheartedly against pits. I've seen one that would defend a pit bull if he caught the pit bull with his mother's head in the pit's mouth.

Once again, I loved my experience with my pit bull, more than just about any other dog I've owned. But I don't pretend it was a Pomeranian. Or, even from the stats I and others have pointed to, a freaking Doberman. Is there a lot of misinformation out there about the "evils" of this "breed"? Most certainly. But sticking your head in the sand and saying that they are saints is incredibly ignorant and statistically incredulous.
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Old 27th December 2017, 03:49 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
I haven't seen very many posters on here wholeheartedly against pits.
The OP says:

Quote:
There's something seriously wrong with this breed, and other closely related breeds.
His other posts reflect similar sentiment. He is quite consistent on his being against the breed.

Quote:
I've seen one that would defend a pit bull if he caught the pit bull with his mother's head in the pit's mouth.
You haven't met my mother.


Quote:
But sticking your head in the sand and saying that they are saints is incredibly ignorant and statistically incredulous.
No, they're not saints. They're dogs. Some of them are good dogs. Some of them are bad dogs. A few of them are so damaged that they need to be put down. Judging which slot they belong in based on the their being a "pit bull" is irrational, and basing legislation on that irrationality is cruel. (Highlighted because this is my main point on the subject, and reading anything else into it is purely a reflection of the reader's bias.)
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Old 27th December 2017, 03:59 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
It actually doesn't dispel the locking jaws myth, it endorses it wholeheartedly:
Eh?

"There is no physical locking mechanism in the jaws of a pit bull, their jaw physiology is no different from any other breed. What is different about pit bulls is their psychology,..."

Which is from the very article I quoted. However, the main reason for that quote was the Jessup reference, which you handwaved away with a reference to the English bulldog.
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