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Tags alex jones , Deep State conspiracies , mike cernovich

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Old 27th September 2017, 05:11 AM   #41
Border Reiver
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Because elections help align the interests of elected politicians with those of the electorate. But there isn't a similarly effective mechanism to align the interests of unelected bureaucrats with the electorate.
I disagree that elections necessarily align the interests of politicians with the electorate - elections generally give politicians the opportunity to appear to align themselves with what people think are their interests.

Let's use the coal/manufacturing jobs bit from the last US election as an example. We can all agree that it is in the interests of people to have meaningful jobs that provide them and their families a living and a sense of fulfillment. One candidate tells the electorate that "I'm going to bring those jobs back and its going to be great" and the other tells them that "We've got to adapt to the changing economy". We all know which one got elected - the one that offered the most pleasant solution to the electorate interest in jobs - the one that didn't involve job loss, change to employment and the need to uproot and move because the nature of certain jobs have changed (coal mining not being a growth industry for many factors and the increased use of automation in manufacturing) in a way that will not bring back "the good old days."

That doesn't mean that it was in the interests of those workers to elect the one that they did, postponing dealing with the longer term issues of global economic change in favour of a short term uptick, or a realization that they were sold a bill of goods.
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Old 27th September 2017, 08:45 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It is like with Pizza gate, sure it is a conspiracy theory but when it is endorsed by major political figures like the national security adviser it becomes main stream politics as well.
News flash for you. The National Security Adviser's name is McMaster. Do keep up, will you? Flynn got the ax.
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Old 28th September 2017, 03:15 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
News flash for you. The National Security Adviser's name is McMaster. Do keep up, will you? Flynn got the ax.
How does that make official government support for a conspiracy theory not major news?

What now we are not going to be able to talk about global warming here either?
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Old 28th September 2017, 06:49 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
I disagree that elections necessarily align the interests of politicians with the electorate
That's why I said they help to align interests, rather than simply saying they align interests. It doesn't always work, but it still puts pressure in that direction.
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Old 29th September 2017, 04:08 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
What now we are not going to be able to talk about global warming here either?
I would have thought you'd be pleased that Flynn got the ax. Accountability. A good thing.
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Old 29th September 2017, 07:16 PM   #46
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Obama is busy. Notable conservative commentator Rick Wiles claims Obama created racism and is still hard at work poisoning society.

Quote:
“We didn’t have this kind of racial hatred before Obama. I’ve never seen this kind of racial hatred in my life — never. He poisoned our society and he did it deliberately to start a civil war. He’s just a paid thug. We need to know who he works for, but he’s a thug.”
...
“He’s paid to start a revolution, and I’m telling you folks, if you could get inside of Obama’s house, you would quickly discover that all day long he’s orchestrating the revolt across the nation. He’s on the phone, he’s working it, he’s calling his people and he is telling them what to do. He is totally in charge of this rebellion. This is a rebellion — and Obama is leading it.”
This was on Wednesday during his national radio broadcast and he was upset about the ongoing NFL protests.
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Old 29th September 2017, 07:32 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Obama is busy. Notable conservative commentator Rick Wiles claims Obama created racism and is still hard at work poisoning society.



This was on Wednesday during his national radio broadcast and he was upset about the ongoing NFL protests.
Notable?

Is it actually a radio broadcast or an internet-based show? I couldn't find any links to radio stations carrying his program.

I mean, sure, this is a nutty claim and he is a nutty guy, but there are lots of examples of both of those things. It's not like the president calls him up and speaks glowingly of his program, say. This guy is just trying to out-Alex-Jones Alex Jones.
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Old 29th September 2017, 09:12 PM   #48
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Do you spend much time on RightWingWatch? Rick Wiles has a huge rep over there. He's been blasting hate for Obama as long as I can remember.
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Old 30th September 2017, 04:27 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Do you spend much time on RightWingWatch? Rick Wiles has a huge rep over there. He's been blasting hate for Obama as long as I can remember.
Um... that tells us nothing about the size of his audience.
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Old 30th September 2017, 06:12 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Um... that tells us nothing about the size of his audience.
I have to agree with Ziggurat here. When speaking of the influence of this guy, we mean something like "how large is his audience of believers?" not "how much ink does rightwingwatch spill on him?"

You can convince me he's a big wheel. I don't know whether he is or not. Lots of big wheels in conservative circles escape my notice. But arguing that RWW pays attention to him doesn't provide too much evidence that he's a national figure (much less that he has a national radio broadcast -- does he?).

ETA: Not particularly good evidence, but I notice he doesn't have a Wikipedia page. I went there hoping to learn about his nationwide radio broadcast.

ETA++: By the way, Zig, I invite you to clarify your notions of "virtue signalling" to tell me whether I've misrepresented you over in the NFL thread. Please, don't leave me hanging here, because I want to discuss your own notions and not my interpretations of such.

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Old 30th September 2017, 06:31 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's why I said they help to align interests, rather than simply saying they align interests. It doesn't always work, but it still puts pressure in that direction.
I'm assuming you got evidence for that rather than just wishful thinking? And it better be good evidence, because there's plenty of evidence showing that the effect is zilch.



Also, the deep state would be better defined as the resulting institutional power over the state apparatus, above and beyond the so-called "democratic" veneer, held by those with economic power with the goal of attaining greater economic power, rather than just bureaucrats defending their turf.
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Old 30th September 2017, 06:46 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
It is my contention that a "deep state" cannot logically exist. Here is my primary prohibitive observational evidence. Where am I going wrong?

1. A deep state would simply eliminate or silence people like Alex Jones.
No it wouldn't, quite the opposite. If you were part of a relatively small group of people with such power that your influence over the state apparatus could be considered to constitute a "deep state" then it would be in your interest to have people like Alex Jones around who would deflect criticism of, and attempt to dominate the narrative of, such power imbalances and the effect they have on the state by screaming about the evil alien Reptilians ruling us all in secret or something like that.
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Old 1st October 2017, 12:35 AM   #53
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Quote:
=Norman Alexander;12004258]Deep State is actually "Hi I'm Alan Jones and I say stupid weird **** to get your attention all the time. Buy my stuff! Send me money!"
The deep state is real. I'm going to take this guy's word over someone who undoubtedly always believes the Official Story.

http://billmoyers.com/2014/02/21/ana...he-deep-state/
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Old 1st October 2017, 02:40 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by jakesteele View Post
The deep state is real. I'm going to take this guy's word over someone who undoubtedly always believes the Official Story.

http://billmoyers.com/2014/02/21/ana...he-deep-state/
Jake, thanks for the link, I have some close friends in the DC area who work as Intel contractors, who cost the government 70% of what a GS employee would cost, and I understand how all of that works. Have more than a few friends who worked for Blackwater in Iraq. They have interesting stories.

Sadly, your meme "official story" discredits you. I've got a couple of close friends who were in the Pentagon when that aircraft hit. Quite frankly, you need to pull real hard. When you hear that popping sound, you'll see daylight.
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Old 1st October 2017, 03:13 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
No it wouldn't, quite the opposite. If you were part of a relatively small group of people with such power that your influence over the state apparatus could be considered to constitute a "deep state" then it would be in your interest to have people like Alex Jones around who would deflect criticism of, and attempt to dominate the narrative of, such power imbalances and the effect they have on the state by screaming about the evil alien Reptilians ruling us all in secret or something like that.
Or you could be Alex Jones. That way you get to control the narrative, and nobody will suspect that you are the very thing you pretend to be against!
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Old 1st October 2017, 05:18 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
No it wouldn't, quite the opposite. If you were part of a relatively small group of people with such power that your influence over the state apparatus could be considered to constitute a "deep state" then it would be in your interest to have people like Alex Jones around who would deflect criticism of, and attempt to dominate the narrative of, such power imbalances and the effect they have on the state by screaming about the evil alien Reptilians ruling us all in secret or something like that.
The biggest flaw in your argument is that Jones is not deflecting criticism of the deep state. He's calling it out. Nevermind the fact that he wouldn't have the guts to call it out if he believed it actually existed.

The second biggest flaw in your argument is, if I were part of a relatively small group with such power, I wouldn't need Alex Jones or any other loudmouth. He'd be about as useful to me as tits on a boar hog. I would actually find him annoying, and would have the means to do something about him.
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Old 1st October 2017, 05:25 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Or you could be Alex Jones. That way you get to control the narrative, and nobody will suspect that you are the very thing you pretend to be against!
Or better yet, just stay out of sight, and no one would ever suspect me of being anything, because they wouldn't know I exist.

After all, isn't my anonymity what makes me the hypothetical "deep state" in the first place? So why would I want to come out in the open, start a radio station, and start screaming about a deep state?
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Old 2nd October 2017, 02:48 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
The biggest flaw in your argument is that Jones is not deflecting criticism of the deep state. He's calling it out.
No he isn't, he deflects it. You seem to be completely missing the dynamic here.

Let's consider 1920's-30's Europe where you can see this dynamic playing out in high-gear. On the one hand you have the communists/socialists making structural arguments against economic elites. On the other hand you have the nazis who claim to "also be socialists" but deflect those structural arguments by making it into a conspiracy theory (ie the Jewish conspiracy which rules us all).

At the time there was a real threat of revolution, so you see this dynamic kick into high gear. But it's the same dynamic playing out in low-gear at other times. Suppose you're giving a speech about structural power imbalances under capitalism and its effects on the state, and someone jumps on stage next to you and starts screaming: "you're totally right! The Reptilian overlords are in a conspiracy with the elites to rule us all!". In whose interest do you think that is?

Quote:
The second biggest flaw in your argument is, if I were part of a relatively small group with such power, I wouldn't need Alex Jones or any other loudmouth. He'd be about as useful to me as tits on a boar hog. I would actually find him annoying, and would have the means to do something about him.
Yet at the time the biggest benefactor of the NSDAP was big business. Why do you think that is? Because when their power base is being threatened, it's in the interests of those in power to deflect criticism of it. By your logic economic elites in 1920's-30's Germany would have tried to do move against the NSDAP because reasons, thereby letting the narrative against power imbalances be dominated by those (communists/socialists) who would actually threaten their power base. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 02:59 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Or better yet, just stay out of sight, and no one would ever suspect me of being anything, because they wouldn't know I exist.

After all, isn't my anonymity what makes me the hypothetical "deep state" in the first place? So why would I want to come out in the open, start a radio station, and start screaming about a deep state?
Your anonymity? How exactly were you planning on staying anonymous whilst at the same thing controlling that much economic power that you can influence the state to do your bidding? Have you read the article linked to a couple of posts above by jakesteele? There's nothing anonymous about it.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 03:51 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
I would have thought you'd be pleased that Flynn got the ax. Accountability. A good thing.
But he wasn't axed for supporting these kind of conspiracy theories. At least can talk about how china created the lies of global warming and is manufacturing the hurricanes that are causing so much damage and death in the US.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 08:40 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
No he isn't, he deflects it. You seem to be completely missing the dynamic here.

Let's consider 1920's-30's Europe where you can see this dynamic playing out in high-gear. On the one hand you have the communists/socialists making structural arguments against economic elites. On the other hand you have the nazis who claim to "also be socialists" but deflect those structural arguments by making it into a conspiracy theory (ie the Jewish conspiracy which rules us all).

At the time there was a real threat of revolution, so you see this dynamic kick into high gear. But it's the same dynamic playing out in low-gear at other times. Suppose you're giving a speech about structural power imbalances under capitalism and its effects on the state, and someone jumps on stage next to you and starts screaming: "you're totally right! The Reptilian overlords are in a conspiracy with the elites to rule us all!". In whose interest do you think that is?

Yet at the time the biggest benefactor of the NSDAP was big business. Why do you think that is? Because when their power base is being threatened, it's in the interests of those in power to deflect criticism of it. By your logic economic elites in 1920's-30's Germany would have tried to do move against the NSDAP because reasons, thereby letting the narrative against power imbalances be dominated by those (communists/socialists) who would actually threaten their power base. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.
You remind me of a Christian trying to explain why God had his Son tortured to death.

And then tries to make me feel guilty about it.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 10:25 PM   #62
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@Toontown (He got better. Did you read the whole book?)
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Old 3rd October 2017, 07:47 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
@Toontown (He got better. Did you read the whole book?)
Not the whole book. But I did read enough to gather that being flayed and crucified hurts very bad for a long time. I also gathered that Jesus asked God to let him off the hook (let this cup pass from me), and was apparently told to suck it up and suffer.

The part I never did get was how it all made perfect sense.
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Old 4th October 2017, 08:22 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Not the whole book.
OK, that puts you in very good company, but hardly makes for a sound basis for commentary. (The rest of this belongs in R&P, if anywhere).
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Old 24th January 2018, 02:40 AM   #65
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The "Deep State"

I thought the subject of the alleged "Deep State" probably deserved a thread of its own. Especially as I couldn't think of a suitable thread in which to post this fun nugget: Rush Limbaugh opines that the Deep State were responsible for planting fake evidence about Saddam Hussain having WMD's, in order to embarrass Bush

It's quite a versatile theory, this "Deep State" - you can use it to excuse anything by anybody, it seems.
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Old 24th January 2018, 03:14 AM   #66
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There is no political body or individual who is part of the mythical "Deep State". To the extent it is construed as an actor with direction and a purpose opposed to actual politics, the concept belongs in Conspiracy Theories.
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Old 24th January 2018, 03:21 AM   #67
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Well, it's certainly a conspiracy theory. But since it's one that's touted seriously by the POTUS, I think a thread discussing it belongs in USA Politics.

Still, if you want to, feel free to report it to the mods, and they can decide.
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Old 24th January 2018, 07:06 AM   #68
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Somebody before made the argument that the terms "Deep State" and "Bureaucracy" have effectively the same meanings.
Deep state sounds much more insidious, but ultimately we know there is validity to the idea of bureaucracy, so it's a concept worth discussing in the current, and any political context.

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Old 24th January 2018, 07:17 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Somebody before made the argument that the terms "Deep State" and "Bureaucracy" have effectively the same meanings.
Deep state sounds much more insidious, but ultimately we know there is validity to the idea of bureaucracy, so it's a concept worth discussing in the current, and any political context.
Functionally yes, practically no. Deep State is also the idea that the bureaucracy is fundamentally partisan and engaging in political manipulation. It isn't just reframing it in more frightening language but attributing motive and effect. See the writing off of the FBI as being entirely out to get Trump the whole time and so on.
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Old 24th January 2018, 07:25 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Functionally yes, practically no. Deep State is also the idea that the bureaucracy is fundamentally partisan and engaging in political manipulation. It isn't just reframing it in more frightening language but attributing motive and effect. See the writing off of the FBI as being entirely out to get Trump the whole time and so on.
I see your point (and this is the point that I think is worth debating about the use of the term) but a bureaucracy tends to act as a moderating force on political extremes in either direction, if by no other means than its inefficiency in implementation of changes. So, i think for someone like Trump, or conversely if Bernie had been elected, a bureaucracy is always going to seem like it is partisan even if it really is not.
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Old 24th January 2018, 07:26 AM   #71
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Now that we're in the age of the shallow state our worries are over. It's a beautiful state, the like of which we've never seen before.
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Old 24th January 2018, 07:30 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
I see your point (and this is the point that I think is worth debating about the use of the term) but a bureaucracy tends to act as a moderating force on political extremes in either direction, if by no other means than its inefficiency in implementation of changes. So, i think for someone like Trump, or conversely if Bernie had been elected, a bureaucracy is always going to seem like it is partisan even if it really is not.
And now you are bringing facts into a conspiracy theory. It is about discrediting the government and making it easier to concentrate power into individuals loyal to the president. Like how all negative facts are discredited as "Fake News"
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Old 24th January 2018, 07:35 AM   #73
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My two cents:
Its a scare label but:

If you mean a concerted effort with the government bureaucracy to achieve particular political goals, that almost certain doesn't exist and in the absence of more evidence, is just a CT.

If you mean, government bureaucrats have incentives that mean they tend to support particular political goals and these biases result in bureaucracies collectively acting to aid or hinder the agenda of elected officials then you probably have point worth talking about. Numerous cabinet secretaries have complained about how hard it is to get the bureaucracies to change. If anything should be taken from Benghazi its that this form of the "Deep State" occasionally gets people killed.

I do think the second form almost certainly benefits Democrat administrations. Seriously, if you have a boss who got his job in part by promising to get rid of a bunch of jobs in your department, reduce your benefits, and make you work harder, you're not going to give it your all to advance their agenda.

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Old 24th January 2018, 07:38 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Somebody before made the argument that the terms "Deep State" and "Bureaucracy" have effectively the same meanings.
Well in that case, the Deep State where I work is really intolerable.
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Old 24th January 2018, 07:40 AM   #75
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To be fair though, I think it is highly likely that a majority of agency employees throughout the federal government recognize Trump's incompetence. I think it's likely that some of these people aren't optimally working to implement his agenda on political or moral grounds.

Edit to add: "or moral" grounds.

I think even many conservative government employees are not keen to advance Trump's plans.

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Old 24th January 2018, 07:42 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Somebody before made the argument that the terms "Deep State" and "Bureaucracy" have effectively the same meanings.
Deep state sounds much more insidious, but ultimately we know there is validity to the idea of bureaucracy, so it's a concept worth discussing in the current, and any political context.
I always understood the Deep State as the theorized puppetmasters behind the scenes, and bureaucracy as the mindless machination in full view.
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Old 24th January 2018, 07:50 AM   #77
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If the crew of the supertanker doesn't make it turn on a dime, even if the new captain tells them to, the logical move is to fire/court martial everyone and sink the ship.
It's the only way to make sure the vessel doesn't sail another mile in the wrong direction.

I consider the Deep State to be more equivalent to institutional inertia.
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Old 24th January 2018, 07:58 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I consider the Deep State to be more equivalent to institutional inertia.
But I really want it to be malice!
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Old 24th January 2018, 08:26 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I thought the subject of the alleged "Deep State" probably deserved a thread of its own. Especially as I couldn't think of a suitable thread in which to post this fun nugget: Rush Limbaugh opines that the Deep State were responsible for planting fake evidence about Saddam Hussain having WMD's, in order to embarrass Bush

It's quite a versatile theory, this "Deep State" - you can use it to excuse anything by anybody, it seems.
The Deep State is just a facade for the Deep Hidden Inner Secret State (DHISS) yah gotta watch out for
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Old 24th January 2018, 08:30 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
The Deep State is just a facade for the Deep Hidden Inner Secret State (DHISS) yah gotta watch out for
Pfft. I can see you're new to this. How about the Deep Hidden Authority Reigning the Inner State (DHARIS)?
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