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Old Yesterday, 08:04 PM   #2361
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Or more acccurately it means if YOU make a pledge not to touch the cookie jar, it doesn't continue to apply to the people who buy your house and move in 5 year later.
And getting into the cookie jar is still not a great idea.
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Old Today, 01:46 AM   #2362
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
And getting into the cookie jar is still not a great idea.
Perhaps there's a point at which it's better not to prolong the analogy.

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Old Today, 03:06 AM   #2363
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Theresa May is considering amending the Good Friday Agreement as part of a fresh attempt to unblock the Brexit logjam,

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...agreement-get/

The Good Friday Agreement, which ended centuries of violence, was voted for in a referendum Where they got to see the deal first, by 71.1% in Northern Ireland and 94.4% in ROI.
May wants to undermine it for a 51.9% blind vote and a deal everyone hates.

Also the Good Friday Agreement is an international treaty signed two governments and guaranteed by the EU & the USA.
It was overwhelmingly endorsed by the people of Ireland on both sides of the border. It marked an end to decades of violence.
It is not a bargaining chip to be used by a chaotic a British Government to hang on to power.
She can't get an agreement in her own cabinet on Brexit. How does she think she is going to renegotiate the Good Friday Agreement?

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; Today at 03:11 AM.
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Old Today, 03:10 AM   #2364
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Not particularly. There was a lot of nonsense talked about it but other than the usual online **** throwing there wasn't much nastiness at all



Well we continually be held to ransom by the thuggish elements of society. We can't do anything if we just let people threaten violence if we even TALK about stuff.
My point is compared to the EU referendum, the Independence referendum was conducted in a far better way.
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Old Today, 03:11 AM   #2365
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
It wouldn't result in a return to the Troubles. It would be better to hold it under a Labour government though because the Tories have a history of arming and colluding with loyalist terrorists.
Rubbish.
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Old Today, 04:21 AM   #2366
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Jesus. She's not that thick is she?
Will of the people to take back their borders!
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Old Today, 04:23 AM   #2367
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Theresa May is considering amending the Good Friday Agreement as part of a fresh attempt to unblock the Brexit logjam,

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...agreement-get/

The Good Friday Agreement, which ended centuries of violence, was voted for in a referendum Where they got to see the deal first, by 71.1% in Northern Ireland and 94.4% in ROI.
May wants to undermine it for a 51.9% blind vote and a deal everyone hates.

Also the Good Friday Agreement is an international treaty signed two governments and guaranteed by the EU & the USA.
It was overwhelmingly endorsed by the people of Ireland on both sides of the border. It marked an end to decades of violence.
It is not a bargaining chip to be used by a chaotic a British Government to hang on to power.
She can't get an agreement in her own cabinet on Brexit. How does she think she is going to renegotiate the Good Friday Agreement?
To bad the people voted to break that treaty and close the border. She must abide by the will of the people.
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Old Today, 04:36 AM   #2368
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
And getting into the cookie jar is still not a great idea.
That's up to the owners of the cookies to decide not some argumentative knowitall from 5 years ago.
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Old Today, 04:42 AM   #2369
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
To bad the people voted to break that treaty and close the border. She must abide by the will of the people.
Yeah but the proposed amendment seems to be to add 'we double pinky swear to never have a border in Ireland (if possible)'

Talking of Ireland, I noted that the Irish don't have to apply for the EU settled status con that the Tories have used to pay some bills. This to me seems like discrimination based on nationality (remember when not discriminating based on nationality was an important reason to leave the EU?) and I think it might be contrary to EU law.

Now obviously, the UK can offer this if it likes but it isn't it illegal for Ireland to have treaty with the UK that allows it? or have the EU agreed to this exception?

I'm no lawyer but I wonder if someone from Poland would be able to test this arrangement legally? I don't see how the EU can allow Ireland to have special treatment from a third country like this.
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Old Today, 04:46 AM   #2370
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Yeah but the proposed amendment seems to be to add 'we double pinky swear to never have a border in Ireland (if possible)'

Talking of Ireland, I noted that the Irish don't have to apply for the EU settled status con that the Tories have used to pay some bills. This to me seems like discrimination based on nationality (remember when not discriminating based on nationality was an important reason to leave the EU?) and I think it might be contrary to EU law.

Now obviously, the UK can offer this if it likes but it isn't it illegal for Ireland to have treaty with the UK that allows it? or have the EU agreed to this exception?

I'm no lawyer but I wonder if someone from Poland would be able to test this arrangement legally? I don't see how the EU can allow Ireland to have special treatment from a third country like this.
What can Ireland do about it? Demand that the newly liberated UK change it's laws?
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Old Today, 06:02 AM   #2371
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
That's up to the owners of the cookies to decide not some argumentative knowitall from 5 years ago.
No one is disputing their ability to commit bad decisions.
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Old Today, 06:59 AM   #2372
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Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
What can Ireland do about it? Demand that the newly liberated UK change it's laws?
There seems to be complete confusion over the status of the CTA post Brexit - it could/should require a bilateral agreement between Ireland and UK, the kind that the EU shouldn't/doesn't allow.

I'm only thinking out loud but if the EU allows Ireland to sign such an agreement it may lead to future challenges by other countries wishing to do such things or by people who claim discrimination from other EU countries.

Of course the EU/Ireland can't force the UK to apply its laws but it could stop the agreement and stop Ireland reciprocating.

The best defence I can find is that the CTA is being grandfathered in as it pre-existed the EU but I'm not sure if legally that legislation still exists or whether it was completely usurped by the EU legislation.
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Old Today, 07:09 AM   #2373
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
No one is disputing their ability to commit bad decisions.
Just their moral right to substitute good ones for them.

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Old Today, 07:16 AM   #2374
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Yeah but the proposed amendment seems to be to add 'we double pinky swear to never have a border in Ireland (if possible)'
It is easy, they need to stop talking about it as an Irish border, but rather their land border with the EU. Defining it that way will make everyone understand why it needs to be closed, the referendum was about taking back control of the borders with the EU after all.
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Old Today, 08:00 AM   #2375
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Yeah but the proposed amendment seems to be to add 'we double pinky swear to never have a border in Ireland (if possible)'

Talking of Ireland, I noted that the Irish don't have to apply for the EU settled status con that the Tories have used to pay some bills. This to me seems like discrimination based on nationality (remember when not discriminating based on nationality was an important reason to leave the EU?) and I think it might be contrary to EU law.

Now obviously, the UK can offer this if it likes but it isn't it illegal for Ireland to have treaty with the UK that allows it? or have the EU agreed to this exception?

I'm no lawyer but I wonder if someone from Poland would be able to test this arrangement legally? I don't see how the EU can allow Ireland to have special treatment from a third country like this.
I would think that because it is based on the CTA, which obviously predates the EU by decades, it doesn't breach EU law. The CTA certainly gives British and Irish citizens voting and other rights in the other country that EU citizens don't get. Irish citizens could vote in the referendum, but not EU citizens.
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Old Today, 08:42 AM   #2376
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I would think that because it is based on the CTA, which obviously predates the EU by decades, it doesn't breach EU law. The CTA certainly gives British and Irish citizens voting and other rights in the other country that EU citizens don't get. Irish citizens could vote in the referendum, but not EU citizens.
The question though is to what extent the CTA exists in a legally enforceable form that persists in the event of a no deal brexit and, to my non-legally qualified mind, whether it can persist in perpetuity without FoM for other EU citizens.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-46178534

Of course there is also the looming question of what would happen if Ireland joined Schengen.
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Old Today, 09:23 AM   #2377
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So now we know TMs backup plan... she is going to ask the EU to scrap the backstop again, basically repeating the wasted time in December attempting to do something the EU have said is not possible.

Her consultations and willingness to listen simply another lie.
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Old Today, 10:15 AM   #2378
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
The question though is to what extent the CTA exists in a legally enforceable form that persists in the event of a no deal brexit and, to my non-legally qualified mind, whether it can persist in perpetuity without FoM for other EU citizens.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-46178534
The whole point is that the CTA stands separate from EU FoM, and has since the 1920s. If the UK does actually leave the EU (fingers still crossed we don't go off that cliff), it shouldn't have any bearing on the CTA whatsoever, unless one side or the other chooses to make it so, which is in neither the UK nor the Irish Republic's interest.

Quote:
Of course there is also the looming question of what would happen if Ireland joined Schengen.
Maybe not. Ireland has always opted out of Schengen because - with the UK opting out for its own reasons - the CTA was seen as being of more value.
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Old Today, 11:08 AM   #2379
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BBC News: Brexit - Theresa May scraps 65 fee for EU citizens

"Theresa May has scrapped the 65 fee millions of EU citizens were going to have to pay to secure the right to continue living in the UK after Brexit....

Millions of EU citizens living in the UK will have to apply for "settled status" to remain in Britain after Brexit.

Applicants must have lived in the UK for five years and had been expected to pay a fee of 65 each.

"Settled status" gives EU citizens the same access to healthcare and education after Britain leaves the EU.

Mrs May told MPs she had listened to the concerns of EU citizens, through their campaign group the 3million, about the fees, and they would be waived when the scheme was launched on 30 March.

The government launched a pilot scheme this week for people to apply for leave to remain, through a smartphone app.

Mrs May said anyone "who has, or will, apply during the pilot phase" will have their fee reimbursed, with further detail to be announced shortly."

You couldn't make it up...
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Old Today, 11:16 AM   #2380
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#Cancelbrexit.
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Old Today, 11:29 AM   #2381
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https://twitter.com/uk_domain_names/...89134332755975

Quote:
Ok, Government's basically just admitted "International hauliers, if there's a no deal Brexit, you're bust."

You see, they may need ECMT permits. But only a little over 1,000 permits were available (for 50,000+ vehicles) and application deadline passed.

https://t.co/Pfrvg7LAN0
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Old Today, 12:38 PM   #2382
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Rubbish.
Yeah, I only live in Northern Ireland, what would I know?
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Old Today, 01:09 PM   #2383
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
We have a stalemate. Parliament will not vote for May's deal because they hate it. Parliament will not permit No Deal because it's economic suicide. Parliament will not vote to rescind Article 50 because although they have the authority (and probably the desire) to do so, they have a popular mandate not to do so and will face the wrath of the voters if they defy them.

They need somehow to find the nerve to call a referendum on May's deal, no deal or no Brexit, probably using a single transferable vote. The EU will almost certainly permit an extension to Article 50 to allow time for this since it will produce a definite outcome.
It's not the 'wrath of the voters' May is worried about, it's the wrath of a hardcore section of the Tory party.
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Old Today, 01:16 PM   #2384
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Yeah but the proposed amendment seems to be to add 'we double pinky swear to never have a border in Ireland (if possible)'

Talking of Ireland, I noted that the Irish don't have to apply for the EU settled status con that the Tories have used to pay some bills. This to me seems like discrimination based on nationality (remember when not discriminating based on nationality was an important reason to leave the EU?) and I think it might be contrary to EU law.

Now obviously, the UK can offer this if it likes but it isn't it illegal for Ireland to have treaty with the UK that allows it? or have the EU agreed to this exception?

I'm no lawyer but I wonder if someone from Poland would be able to test this arrangement legally? I don't see how the EU can allow Ireland to have special treatment from a third country like this.
The Irish have always been granted free movement in the UK. Nothing to do with the EU.
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Old Today, 02:07 PM   #2385
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Irish have always been granted free movement in the UK. Nothing to do with the EU.
Of course it is, now. Tariffs between Ireland and the UK vs France and the UK used to be separate too, not so much now with the EU.

Where are there any actual legal rulings from the organizations involved?
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Old Today, 03:47 PM   #2386
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Of course it is, now. Tariffs between Ireland and the UK vs France and the UK used to be separate too, not so much now with the EU.

Where are there any actual legal rulings from the organizations involved?
Um, Vixen is correct in this. It was enacted into law in 1925 by both the UK and the Irish Republic.
Irish Aliens act (1925)
UK Aliens act (1925) (not currently online because the UK is determined to return to the 19th century, you will have to revert to treeware for that).
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Old Today, 03:59 PM   #2387
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
BBC News: Brexit - Theresa May scraps 65 fee for EU citizens

"Theresa May has scrapped the 65 fee millions of EU citizens were going to have to pay to secure the right to continue living in the UK after Brexit....

Millions of EU citizens living in the UK will have to apply for "settled status" to remain in Britain after Brexit.

Applicants must have lived in the UK for five years and had been expected to pay a fee of 65 each.

"Settled status" gives EU citizens the same access to healthcare and education after Britain leaves the EU.

Mrs May told MPs she had listened to the concerns of EU citizens, through their campaign group the 3million, about the fees, and they would be waived when the scheme was launched on 30 March.

The government launched a pilot scheme this week for people to apply for leave to remain, through a smartphone app.

Mrs May said anyone "who has, or will, apply during the pilot phase" will have their fee reimbursed, with further detail to be announced shortly."

You couldn't make it up...
The amazing thing is that the scheme had already started and now thousands of people will have to be refunded costing the government more money than if it just hadn't bothered in the first place.
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Old Today, 04:19 PM   #2388
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Um, Vixen is correct in this. It was enacted into law in 1925 by both the UK and the Irish Republic.
Irish Aliens act (1925)
UK Aliens act (1925) (not currently online because the UK is determined to return to the 19th century, you will have to revert to treeware for that).
I know the CTA predates the EU, but that doesn't matter unless it carries legal weight.

The situation I am envisioning is say a Polish plumber living in Ireland near the border with NI who maybe did a lot of work on the North side of the border. Now he can't. But an Irish national plumber can.

My question is whether they could then challenge that all the way up to the ECJ and get a ruling that a bilateral agreement between UK and Ireland is counter to EU law?

Or perhaps Poland would ask for the same situation with Ukraine and again we could see a challenge through to the ECJ?

Unless the CTA is specifically enshrined in EU law (and it may well be, but I haven't seen evidence of that) then I don't see how it can be allowed to persist if it was challenged.
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Old Today, 04:42 PM   #2389
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I know the CTA predates the EU, but that doesn't matter unless it carries legal weight.
And I just gave you the references enacting it into law in both jurisdictions. Are you simply going to ignore that?

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
The situation I am envisioning is say a Polish plumber living in Ireland near the border with NI who maybe did a lot of work on the North side of the border. Now he can't. But an Irish national plumber can.
Legally, yes, that situation could occur. Practically, it won't matter.You forget that we have long experience honking stuff across the border on both sides. Brexit is a recipe for reverting to the dark days I thought were long behind us. Be under no illusion, I don't want that, but a subset actually does. We are already seeing it. The cockwombles have already started. FFS RIRA just bombed the Derry courthouse. Why? Because they see how fragile the UK is right now.

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
My question is whether they could then challenge that all the way up to the ECJ and get a ruling that a bilateral agreement between UK and Ireland is counter to EU law?
No, because the EU recognises pre-existing treaties between member states.

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Or perhaps Poland would ask for the same situation with Ukraine and again we could see a challenge through to the ECJ?
If such an arrangement pre-dated their accession then sure, they would have a case to be made. Otherwise, no.

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Unless the CTA is specifically enshrined in EU law (and it may well be, but I haven't seen evidence of that) then I don't see how it can be allowed to persist if it was challenged.
It is. UK and IRE accession to the EEC was predicated on upholding that treaty enacted by law
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