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Old 17th May 2019, 04:58 AM   #121
casebro
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Meh,
Drinking studies muddied the waters around the safety of alcohol use
Study coauthor Emmanuela Gakidou, an expert in health metrics, acknowledges that the risks for light to moderate drinkers are small. In a given year, 914 per 100,000 people who drink no alcohol will die from one of the health conditions examined in the study. If all those people had one drink per day in that year, an extra four, for a total of 918, would die.
The give-away-take-away: 4 deaths per 100,000 vs how many new lives conceived by drunken parents?
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Old 17th May 2019, 05:00 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Meh,
Drinking studies muddied the waters around the safety of alcohol use
Study coauthor Emmanuela Gakidou, an expert in health metrics, acknowledges that the risks for light to moderate drinkers are small. In a given year, 914 per 100,000 people who drink no alcohol will die from one of the health conditions examined in the study. If all those people had one drink per day in that year, an extra four, for a total of 918, would die.
But one drink/day is not the beneficial amount, 3-4 is. U shaped curve remember.
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Old 17th May 2019, 07:59 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
We've moved on from the OP long ago.

Instead of "the supposedly beneficial ingredient", I meant, "a supposedly beneficial ingredient"

And it's already been shown that the risk of cancer outweighs the benefits you've listed.

Your daily recommendations have been superceded by many new studies/metastudies over the past few years.

And it would be important to know the percentage of alcohol in the 12 ounces of beer mentioned. It varies a lot:

Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
A drink is defined as:
12 ounces (355 milliliters, or mL) of beer

I assume they aren't talking about Carlsberg Master Brew, for instance.
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Old 17th May 2019, 08:07 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
The give-away-take-away: 4 deaths per 100,000 vs how many new lives conceived by drunken parents?

I have never seen beer recommended as a contraceptive.

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I AGREE

That commercial is so outdated!!!

And I fear that "the many new lives" may be outnumbered by the lives lost or damaged by drinking alcohol during pregnancy (WHO, 2017).
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Old 18th May 2019, 05:39 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
12 ounces (355 milliliters, or mL) of beer
as dann pointed out, what an epic blunder on Mayo's part. i.e. to say "12 oz of beer" is almost meaningless, since beer can vary a WHOLE lot in alcohol content. I'd guess they mean somewhere in the 5% range, which is typical, but they should specify.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 02:37 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by bigred View Post
as dann pointed out, what an epic blunder on Mayo's part. i.e. to say "12 oz of beer" is almost meaningless, since beer can vary a WHOLE lot in alcohol content. I'd guess they mean somewhere in the 5% range, which is typical, but they should specify.
Mayo being ‘merkin were well aware of ‘Merkin beer.

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Old 24th May 2019, 12:25 PM   #127
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Here is a question: How can someone who does not drink, and has not had a drink for a considerable time, be considered an "alcoholic" or have the "disease" of "alcoholism"? Why continue to define someone who perhaps had a substance abuse problem in the past by that substance? We don't continue to call someone who stopped abusing heroin a junkie.
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Old 24th May 2019, 05:26 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Thanz View Post
Here is a question: How can someone who does not drink, and has not had a drink for a considerable time, be considered an "alcoholic" or have the "disease" of "alcoholism"? Why continue to define someone who perhaps had a substance abuse problem in the past by that substance? We don't continue to call someone who stopped abusing heroin a junkie.
Because of many physiological and/or psychological traits, the person is still at risk to addiction.
Here is an interesting article, Traits of Addictive Personality”, that better explains than I could.
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Old 27th May 2019, 09:54 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Because of many physiological and/or psychological traits, the person is still at risk to addiction.
Here is an interesting article, Traits of Addictive Personality”, that better explains than I could.
I don't think that really explains it much at all. In fact, all it does is indentify some traits that correlated with addiction, rather than pointing to an actual disease of alcoholism.

Doesn't it seem weird that people taking a mind-altering substance can say that another person, who does not take that mind-altering substance, is the person who has a problem with it?

Drinking alcohol is not a necessary part of being an adult. You can drink no alcohol and have no deleterious effects. Yet, if you don't drink, many people will assume that you don't drink because you have a problem with it. They don't make the same assumption if I don't smoke, or don't take other drugs, or don't eat mayo.

What makes alcohol so special that you need a special reason not to consume it?
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Old 27th May 2019, 05:14 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Thanz View Post
I don't think that really explains it much at all. In fact, all it does is indentify some traits that correlated with addiction, rather than pointing to an actual disease of alcoholism.
The article addresses addiction and continued addiction. Alcohol dependency is an addiction.

How does it not address your question?
Quote:
Doesn't it seem weird that people taking a mind-altering substance can say that another person, who does not take that mind-altering substance, is the person who has a problem with it?
Not really. Think about it - their reasoning has been altered by substances.
Does this actually happen? Smacks of a straw an, albeit a rather loosely constructed one

Quote:
Drinking alcohol is not a necessary part of being an adult. You can drink no alcohol and have no deleterious effects. Yet, if you don't drink, many people will assume that you don't drink because you have a problem with it. They don't make the same assumption if I don't smoke, or don't take other drugs, or don't eat mayo.

What makes alcohol so special that you need a special reason not to consume it?
???
You asked why an EX-alcoholic was still regarded as an addict.
The above is a totally different social construct.

Why didn’t you state this first rather than asking about addiction, if you didn’t want to discuss addiction.
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Old 28th May 2019, 07:15 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Not really. Think about it - their reasoning has been altered by substances.
Does this actually happen? Smacks of a straw an, albeit a rather loosely constructed one
I am trying to get at a deeper societal problem. The use/abuse of alcohol is so widespread that it is seen as "normal". Someone can get drunk every weekend and not be seen as an abuser of alcohol. That same person can, and does, point to people who now abstain from alcohol but attends AA meetings as an "alcoholic", and is therefore the person who has a "problem with alcohol". I believe that the person who gets drunk every weekend has more of a problem with alcohol than someone who doesn't drink.

Quote:
???
You asked why an EX-alcoholic was still regarded as an addict.
The above is a totally different social construct.

Why didn’t you state this first rather than asking about addiction, if you didn’t want to discuss addiction.
See above - I think that it is all mixed in together. I think that it is a fiction to say that only those people who make an effort to stop drinking are labelled as addicts. I think that the idea of "normal" drinking makes about as much sense as "normal" smoking.

In the movie Annihilation, there is a scene where a number of people are meeting for the first time and one character is making their assessments of the others. They are outside having beers. About one of the characters she says "sober, so therefore an addict". This attitude is pervasive.

I am pushing back against the idea that once someone who had a problem abusing alcohol stops drinking that they "will always be an alcoholic". This is ********. Once you don't drink, you are no longer beholden to alcohol and don't need to define your life around whether you consume it or not. The addiction recovery industry likes to tell you different.

How can it make sense to say that someone is addicted to a substance that they have not consumed in years?
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Old 29th May 2019, 01:43 AM   #132
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I can only suggest that you have never met an alcoholic that is trying to stay dry.
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Old 29th May 2019, 05:45 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
I can only suggest that you have never met an alcoholic that is trying to stay dry.
You would be wrong in that assumption.

But what I am trying to attack is the attitude of "an alcoholic that is trying to stay dry". This attitude, which is pervasive in popular culture, keeps people in a prison that they have no need to be in. I am trying to encourage a shift in attitude towards realizing that once you ARE dry, you are NOT an "alcoholic".

How does it make sense for someone who has been dry for 10 years to still believe that they are "powerless over alcohol"? No they are not! They have proven for 10 years that they have immense power over alcohol! Continuing to define themselves around a substance they no longer consume is a choice, and one that I would urge more to reject.

The problem, I believe, is not on an individual level but on a societal one. In today's society, the decision to not take this mind altering substance is seen as abnormal. Whereas using and abusing it is par for the course. Get a promotion? Here, let me buy you a drink to celebrate. Lose your job? Here, let me buy you a drink to commiserate. People are constantly bombarded with the message that to be an adult is to drink alcohol. Which leads people to think that if they don't drink it, there must be something wrong with them. That they are an "alcoholic". Hogwash, I say.
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Old 29th May 2019, 03:08 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Thanz View Post
You would be wrong in that assumption.

But what I am trying to attack is the attitude of "an alcoholic that is trying to stay dry". This attitude, which is pervasive in popular culture, keeps people in a prison that they have no need to be in. I am trying to encourage a shift in attitude towards realizing that once you ARE dry, you are NOT an "alcoholic".

How does it make sense for someone who has been dry for 10 years to still believe that they are "powerless over alcohol"? No they are not! They have proven for 10 years that they have immense power over alcohol! Continuing to define themselves around a substance they no longer consume is a choice, and one that I would urge more to reject.
while your opinion is noble, the fact is that issue with addiction is that cravings continue even when sober. While the “one drink is one too many” is a bit cliche, it does capture the struggle that an addict has with their disease. A chronic alcoholic who is currently sober is merely in remission they can “fall off the wagon” even after 10 years dry.
This is the definition of addiction, not mere occasional binge/abuse.

Quote:
The problem, I believe, is not on an individual level but on a societal one. In today's society, the decision to not take this mind altering substance is seen as abnormal. Whereas using and abusing it is par for the course. Get a promotion? Here, let me buy you a drink to celebrate. Lose your job? Here, let me buy you a drink to commiserate. People are constantly bombarded with the message that to be an adult is to drink alcohol. Which leads people to think that if they don't drink it, there must be something wrong with them. That they are an "alcoholic". Hogwash, I say.
while I mostly disagree with your saying not drinking is seen as abnormal in my personal experience, worldwide there is a trend in the younger generation (think “millennial”) to not drink and also don’t think it is abnormal not to drink.

I was a very heavy drinker for decades and loved “pub society”, but even then had a number of teetotal friends (non and ex-drinkers) who would regularly join us. Even when introduced to others outside our group and refusing alcoholic drink offers, hardly ever did anyone indicated that they thought they were abnormal. They may get the occasional “really?”, but that was it.

These days, even I’m the roughest pubs, if you knock back a drink offer, more often than not it is assumed it’s because you’re driving, not because you’re recovering.

It is a societal and generational attitude and certainly exists, but it looks like, as with many societal norms, it is changing.
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Old 30th May 2019, 07:51 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
while your opinion is noble, the fact is that issue with addiction is that cravings continue even when sober. While the “one drink is one too many” is a bit cliche, it does capture the struggle that an addict has with their disease. A chronic alcoholic who is currently sober is merely in remission they can “fall off the wagon” even after 10 years dry.
This is the definition of addiction, not mere occasional binge/abuse.
That struggle is purely mental, not physical. And while I am sure that 12 step programs like AA help people STOP drinking, I am not sure that they are helpful in keeping people from drinking once they have stopped and the alcohol is no longer in their system. I believe that all it does is emphasize alcohol and make it seem more important than it really is. In short, I think that it increases the cravings when you are in a room full of people that all say they have the cravings.

What is needed is an attitude switch from "I can't drink" to "I don't drink". Seems simple, but it is a powerful difference. "I can't" brings with it the assumption that you somehow should, and that there is something wrong that you can't. That you are missing out somehow. In reality, you are not missing out on anything. Anything you can do while drinking can be done just as well, if not better, sober. When you don't drink, it does not have the same connotation of missing out.

Quote:
while I mostly disagree with your saying not drinking is seen as abnormal in my personal experience, worldwide there is a trend in the younger generation (think “millennial”) to not drink and also don’t think it is abnormal not to drink.
I hope that you are correct. I fear that we are going the other way in terms of drugs as a whole, considering the much more widespread legalization of weed.

Quote:
I was a very heavy drinker for decades and loved “pub society”, but even then had a number of teetotal friends (non and ex-drinkers) who would regularly join us. Even when introduced to others outside our group and refusing alcoholic drink offers, hardly ever did anyone indicated that they thought they were abnormal. They may get the occasional “really?”, but that was it.

These days, even I’m the roughest pubs, if you knock back a drink offer, more often than not it is assumed it’s because you’re driving, not because you’re recovering.

It is a societal and generational attitude and certainly exists, but it looks like, as with many societal norms, it is changing.
Again, I hope you are right. Certainly, the attitude towards drinking and driving has gotten better over time.

You say that you were a heavy drinker for decades. Are you sober now? (feel free to tell me to get lost, I am just curious of your situation and how you come at this issue)
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Old 31st May 2019, 05:46 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Thanz View Post
That struggle is purely mental, not physical. And while I am sure that 12 step programs like AA help people STOP drinking, I am not sure that they are helpful in keeping people from drinking once they have stopped and the alcohol is no longer in their system. I believe that all it does is emphasize alcohol and make it seem more important than it really is. In short, I think that it increases the cravings when you are in a room full of people that all say they have the cravings.
My personal dislike of AA is the Christian religious agenda, but that is a different discussion.

But you are incorrect that alcoholism is not a physical dependency. When were talking about chronic addiction your body has developed a physical dependency on alcohol intake with physical repercussions when you stop the supply of the drug of dependence. The cravings are as much a physical reaction by your body as it is a psychological dependence. Smokers have a similar physical dependence. Dismissing (chronic) alcoholism as merely a mental challenge is not addressing the whole issue of dependency. I have had this argument with a friend who believes as you do, but do a search and read a few articles on the subject and I think you’ll change your mind.

Quote:
What is needed is an attitude switch from "I can't drink" to "I don't drink". Seems simple, but it is a powerful difference. "I can't" brings with it the assumption that you somehow should, and that there is something wrong that you can't. That you are missing out somehow. In reality, you are not missing out on anything. Anything you can do while drinking can be done just as well, if not better, sober. When you don't drink, it does not have the same connotation of missing out.
Without wishing to offend, I think that is a rather naive, if not simplistic, “solution”. Dependency and addiction has complex causes and is just as complex to “cure”.
Quote:
I hope that you are correct. I fear that we are going the other way in terms of drugs as a whole, considering the much more widespread legalization of weed.
There is an opinion that the current trend away from alcohol is because of an upward trend in pill use (weed is so passé), I have no idea if that is informed opinion. Frankly I don’t really think weed is as much problem as, say, prescription drugs. I also have a soft view that prohibition really isn’t the answer either. It doesn’t seem to have much of a positive affect on reducing consumption.

Quote:
Again, I hope you are right. Certainly, the attitude towards drinking and driving has gotten better over time.

You say that you were a heavy drinker for decades. Are you sober now? (feel free to tell me to get lost, I am just curious of your situation and how you come at this issue)
Ah, see now you Seem to be showing your true colours.

What is abnormal is that when someone says they like a drink, asking them if they are “sober now” is quite judgemental. One might even suggest projection.

I think perhaps it is your attitude towards people who drink that may be the problem here, not you believing that others think non-drinkers are abnormal.

In answer to your question, even when I was a younger man wondered that I might have a tendency toward alcoholism, but even then I’d stop when I’d got on the outside of too many on a night (even despite friends protestations) and even now will go a week or more without wanting a drink. I’m fortunate though, I gave up smoking 5 years ago (after 40 years of smoking) and don’t think twice about lighting one up.

But it that rather dismissive statement is not a simple and as easy as it appears.
I have smoking dreams. Dreams where I’m out somewhere and still smoking and enjoying it. I wake up the next morning feeling guilty about falling off the wagon, the dreams are so vivid. When I joke about it with friends I more often than not get, “oh yes, I’ve been off them for 15 years and still have those dreams”.

So yes, I’m an ex-smoker not a non-smoker.
It is not other people telling me that I will always have cravings that keep reminding me I’m an addict, it is my own mind and body that does it.

I know a number of people that go for years and then relapse, just enforcing the idea that addiction isn’t a cut and dried problem.
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Old 4th June 2019, 02:22 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
My personal dislike of AA is the Christian religious agenda, but that is a different discussion.

But you are incorrect that alcoholism is not a physical dependency. When were talking about chronic addiction your body has developed a physical dependency on alcohol intake with physical repercussions when you stop the supply of the drug of dependence. The cravings are as much a physical reaction by your body as it is a psychological dependence. Smokers have a similar physical dependence. Dismissing (chronic) alcoholism as merely a mental challenge is not addressing the whole issue of dependency. I have had this argument with a friend who believes as you do, but do a search and read a few articles on the subject and I think you’ll change your mind.
Perhaps I wasn't clear when I said "when the alcohol is no longer in your system". I did not mean just once you sober up the next day. I meant once the alcohol has completely left your system. I am well aware that the body will go through withdrawal symptoms once someone stops drinking. But there is no physical dependency 5 or 10 years on. Probably not even 6 months on.

Quote:
Without wishing to offend, I think that is a rather naive, if not simplistic, “solution”. Dependency and addiction has complex causes and is just as complex to “cure”.
Of course it is complex, and not every approach will work for everyone. But the attitude that it is a disease that can't be cured I believe is just as naive and simplistic.
Quote:
Ah, see now you Seem to be showing your true colours.

What is abnormal is that when someone says they like a drink, asking them if they are “sober now” is quite judgemental. One might even suggest projection.
I will pass on the armchair diagnosis, doctor. I am not judging you if you like to drink. I was curious about your phrasing in the previous post about how you used to drink heavily. I was asking if that meant you no longer drink, or if you drink less, or as the old joke goes, still drink heavily. (as in, "I used to drink heavily. I mean, I still do, but I used to as well"). I was using the term "sober" not as a value judgment, but as the common term for someone who doesn't drink.

Who is really projecting here?

Quote:
I think perhaps it is your attitude towards people who drink that may be the problem here, not you believing that others think non-drinkers are abnormal.
Well, no. I don't have an attitude toward people who drink. All of my friends drink. I have gone out with them while they are drinking.

Quote:
In answer to your question, even when I was a younger man wondered that I might have a tendency toward alcoholism, but even then I’d stop when I’d got on the outside of too many on a night (even despite friends protestations) and even now will go a week or more without wanting a drink. I’m fortunate though, I gave up smoking 5 years ago (after 40 years of smoking) and don’t think twice about lighting one up.

But it that rather dismissive statement is not a simple and as easy as it appears.
I have smoking dreams. Dreams where I’m out somewhere and still smoking and enjoying it. I wake up the next morning feeling guilty about falling off the wagon, the dreams are so vivid. When I joke about it with friends I more often than not get, “oh yes, I’ve been off them for 15 years and still have those dreams”.

So yes, I’m an ex-smoker not a non-smoker.
It is not other people telling me that I will always have cravings that keep reminding me I’m an addict, it is my own mind and body that does it.

I know a number of people that go for years and then relapse, just enforcing the idea that addiction isn’t a cut and dried problem.
Nothing is ever cut and dried, but with respect having a dream about smoking is not evidence of anything. My wife quit smoking about 10 years ago and once in a while will have a dream about smoking. It does not mean you are still dependent on nicotine.

I sometimes have a dream where I am back in high school. By your logic, then, my mind and body are reminding me I am still a high school student. Which is, again, hogwash.
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Old 14th June 2019, 07:23 AM   #138
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New article in The Lancet tomorrow criticizing the study "Alcohol use and burden for 195 countries and territories, 1990–2016: a systematic analysis for the Global Burden of Disease Study 2016":

Quote:
The findings, in absolute terms, are interesting: it is estimated that 918 in 100 000 people aged 15–95 years consuming one alcoholic drink per day develop one of the 23 alcohol-related health problems per year, compared with 914 in 100 000 non-drinkers. Surprisingly, the zero-intake category includes consumption up to 0·8 standard drinks per day. In many countries, 0·8 drinks per day is close to the moderate drinking level.
Alcohol and the global burden of disease (The Lancet, June 15, 2019)
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Old 14th June 2019, 07:53 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
New article in The Lancet tomorrow criticizing the study "Alcohol use and burden for 195 countries and territories, 1990–2016: a systematic analysis for the Global Burden of Disease Study 2016":
Four more per 100,000? Compared to non drinkers who develop one of the 23 alcohol-related health problems ? What are the 23 "alcohol-related health problems" that are only .4% less prevalent among non-drinkers? Man, they are really reaching to make alcohol look bad.

Let's make some guesses at some of the 23: Dandruff, bad breath, grumpy until you've had your first cup, pimples, irregularity, sagging arm pits, low tire pressure, dirty fingernails......
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Old 14th June 2019, 08:08 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Four more per 100,000? Compared to non drinkers who develop one of the 23 alcohol-related health problems ? What are the 23 "alcohol-related health problems" that are only .4% less prevalent among non-drinkers? Man, they are really reaching to make alcohol look bad.

Let's make some guesses at some of the 23: Dandruff, bad breath, grumpy until you've had your first cup, pimples, irregularity, sagging arm pits, low tire pressure, dirty fingernails......
Actually the journal editors point out that most are age-related, such as stroke, but the researchers combine data for different countries without weighting it by life expectancy.
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Old 14th June 2019, 01:08 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
Actually the journal editors point out that most are age-related, such as stroke, but the researchers combine data for different countries without weighting it by life expectancy.
So another biased anti-alcohol study. Got it.
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Old 20th June 2019, 04:56 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Thanz View Post
I don't think that really explains it much at all. In fact, all it does is indentify some traits that correlated with addiction, rather than pointing to an actual disease of alcoholism.
Except it's not a disease. One of the biggest and most idiotic claims/beliefs ever. Malaria is a disease. Ebola is a disease. Alcoholism: not a disease. It's an addiction. How loony our world has gotten such that this has become commonly accepted. Part of the non-accountability trend, I think, like an alcoholic is a "victim" who "caught" something.

(It's also ludicrous to call someone an addict that is no longer addicted to anything.)


Quote:
What makes alcohol so special that you need a special reason not to consume it?
Not sure what makes a reason "special" but we all have reasons that we do or do not ingest whatever. For alcohol, I'd assume it's either health-related reasons or one simply doesn't care for the taste, or both.
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Old 20th June 2019, 04:58 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I just got out of the ICU for a small heart attack- probably actually a BP crisis. See my thread in FC. Discharge question was "do you drink less than 4 glasses of wine per day?" T2D for 40 years now.
Sorry to hear.

Honest question: what is a "small" heart attack?
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Old 20th June 2019, 05:17 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by bigred View Post
Sorry to hear.

Honest question: what is a "small" heart attack?
NSTEMI, Non S-T Elevated Myocardial Infarction. S-T Elevation is a wave on the electrocardiogram. My prob was too small to show on the electrocardiogram. But blood test showed heart muscle enzyme( troponin) , so heart muscle had probs. The subsequent angiogram did not show any new 'clogs', so I blame a hypertension crisis, 230/170 at admitting. Just overworked the heart. NOT helped by an idiosyncratic reaction to an un-needed morphine shot- it shut off my breathing. I went psychotic, needed to be tied down. For 12 days.
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Old 20th June 2019, 08:32 PM   #145
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ouch. Why the hell would they give you morphine?
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Old 20th June 2019, 10:18 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Four more per 100,000? Compared to non drinkers who develop one of the 23 alcohol-related health problems ? What are the 23 "alcohol-related health problems" that are only .4% less prevalent among non-drinkers? Man, they are really reaching to make alcohol look bad.

Let's make some guesses at some of the 23: Dandruff, bad breath, grumpy until you've had your first cup, pimples, irregularity, sagging arm pits, low tire pressure, dirty fingernails......

The authors of the original study agree with the critics who point out that there's a considerable difference between consuming small amounts of alcohol and drinking "far more":

Quote:
We agree with Arne Astrup and Ramon Estruch that the risk is low in the range of 0–0·8 drinks per day. We also agree with their assessment of our study's limitations, which should be considered when evaluating our recommendations. However, we would note that small risks should not be ignored and that most current drinkers are consuming far more than 0·8 drinks per day.
Alcohol and the global burden of disease – Authors' reply (The Lancet, June 2015)
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Old 21st June 2019, 05:26 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by bigred View Post
ouch. Why the hell would they give you morphine?
They said "for the pain" but I only felt like the most severe heart burn imaginable. Then they started to do an ultrasound, that is the last reality I had for 12 days of sedation. But the NOT real happenings in my mind were VERY real.
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Old Today, 12:33 AM   #148
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Just popping in for my periodical smug "Who's protesting too much this time?" visit.
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