ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags thermodynamics

Reply
Old 3rd June 2019, 09:58 AM   #1
Red Baron Farms
Illuminator
 
Red Baron Farms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,673
Entropy violation?

A Glass Battery That Keeps Getting Better?

Real? or fake news?
__________________
Scott
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison
Biome Carbon Cycle Management
Red Baron Farms is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd June 2019, 10:05 AM   #2
RecoveringYuppy
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,755
Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
I would think that the recharge cycle of all batteries lowers the entropy of the battery being recharged. As the article alludes to, this battery just isn't in it's optimal configuration when it's first built. The first set of recharges can simply be viewed as part of the "construction process" of the battery.
__________________
REJ (Robert E Jones) posting anonymously under my real name for 30 years.

Make a fire for a man and you keep him warm for a day. Set him on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd June 2019, 10:06 AM   #3
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 18,106
No. They aren't talking about a battery that magically never needs recharging and doesn't lose energy as it is used, but about a battery who's capacity increase (very slightly according to the article) as it us used.

So instead of a battery that can power your laptop for 5 hours, you use it for 3 years and it can only power your battery for 3.5 hours you would have a battery that could power you laptop for 5 hours and after 3 years it could power your laptop for 5.25 hours.

You would still need to charge the battery. No violation of entropy.

To be clear I can't speak to the validity of the claim itself, but it does not in principle violate the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd June 2019, 10:35 AM   #4
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,494
Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Assuming this is not a deliberate hoax (the source would seem to rule that out), and is not a simple error of measurement (likely)...

Not sure how this would be a violation of entropy. Entropy would be violated if more energy is being removed from the system than is being put into it, and this is not occurring here. What is occurring is that the medium is able to handle more energy being put into the system. They are putting energy into the system. The explanation of the charge/discharge cycle as somehow "optimizing" the materials makes a certain amount of sense.

The article mentioned that the capacity increase occurred over roughly 300 cycles, but doesn't mention whether it continues through the battery's lifespan of 23,000 cycles. If it only occurs for the first few hundred cycles and then levels off, then material optimization seems to be a reasonable explanation. It also doesn't note whether there is a decrease in capacity in the longer term.

At this time, I'm going with "measurement error" as the most likely explanation; and "short-term material optimization with normal long-term degradation" as the second most likely.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon

Last edited by luchog; 3rd June 2019 at 10:37 AM.
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd June 2019, 11:52 AM   #5
GodMark2
Master Poster
 
GodMark2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Oregon, USA
Posts: 2,065
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
At this time, I'm going with "measurement error" as the most likely explanation; and "short-term material optimization with normal long-term degradation" as the second most likely.
While "measurement error" is my main bet, my hedge money would be on "Increase in capacity that is traded off by decrease in efficiency" (i.e. You can use your laptop for longer, but have to leave it charging for even longer). At first, you may store 90Ah by burning 100Ah, (90% efficiency) but later you can store 120Ah by burning 150Ah (80% efficiency). Solid-state dielectric domain alignment could have this effect.
__________________
Knowing that we do not know, it does not necessarily follow that we can not know.
GodMark2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd June 2019, 04:44 PM   #6
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,494
Originally Posted by GodMark2 View Post
While "measurement error" is my main bet, my hedge money would be on "Increase in capacity that is traded off by decrease in efficiency" (i.e. You can use your laptop for longer, but have to leave it charging for even longer). At first, you may store 90Ah by burning 100Ah, (90% efficiency) but later you can store 120Ah by burning 150Ah (80% efficiency). Solid-state dielectric domain alignment could have this effect.

Yeah, I kind of took the reduced efficiency as read.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th June 2019, 05:20 PM   #7
Red Baron Farms
Illuminator
 
Red Baron Farms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,673
Thanks for the answers
__________________
Scott
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison
Biome Carbon Cycle Management
Red Baron Farms is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:51 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.