ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Florida incidents , school incidents , school shootings , shooting incidents

Reply
Old 4th April 2018, 04:52 AM   #1
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 28,991
School shooting Florida - pt 2

Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Can someone explain what the supposed crisis actors are supposed to be trying to achieve?
That's not fair. Conspiracy theories are arrived at by taking the evidence available, deciding on a conclusion, and working backwards to a convoluted plan. Starting from motive and working forwards isn't allowed because then the conspiracy theory obviously doesn't make any sense.

Dave


Mod InfoContinues from this thread. You may quote and respond to posts from that thread here.
Posted By:zooterkin
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right

Last edited by zooterkin; 5th April 2018 at 12:47 AM.
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2018, 11:14 AM   #2
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 73,898
Parkland students trolling politicians via Twitter with clear backpack pics with interesting contents.

Hilarious!

My favorite: Crisis Actor #420
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 4th April 2018 at 11:28 AM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2018, 11:21 AM   #3
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 24,028
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
That's not fair. Conspiracy theories are arrived at by taking the evidence available, deciding on a conclusion, and working backwards to a convoluted plan. Starting from motive and working forwards isn't allowed because then the conspiracy theory obviously doesn't make any sense.

Dave
Of course, just call a name. Nothing else is required. The poison is in the well. Anyone who does anything is an actor, and if it's in response to a crisis, he's a crisis actor, if you want to use a stupid and loaded term. It sounds bad until you ask what the hell else a person would do in that situation. It's like so many of those disparaging terms. Virtue signalling is a nasty word, and applies just as nicely if the virtue is real and the expression is made against vice and error. Social Justice Warriors are disarmed even if what they are at war against is real social injustice. A crisis actor is a "mere" crisis actor no matter what the action, what the crisis.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2018, 12:13 PM   #4
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 11,633
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Of course, just call a name. Nothing else is required. The poison is in the well. Anyone who does anything is an actor, and if it's in response to a crisis, he's a crisis actor, if you want to use a stupid and loaded term. It sounds bad until you ask what the hell else a person would do in that situation. It's like so many of those disparaging terms. Virtue signalling is a nasty word, and applies just as nicely if the virtue is real and the expression is made against vice and error. Social Justice Warriors are disarmed even if what they are at war against is real social injustice. A crisis actor is a "mere" crisis actor no matter what the action, what the crisis.
Yeah.

My "favourite" is the term that hate-mongers, conspiritards and scumbags like Alex Jones applied to the bleeding, bloody, semi-dismembered and dead at the Boston Marathon bombing.... "vicsims".

Its an appalling term that is heartless, disrespectful and is dismissive of the suffering and pain (much of it ongoing) endured by unlucky people who did nothing more than have the misfortune to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
__________________
#THEYAREUS
The Mueller Report must be released to Congress in full - If Trump has nothing to hide, then he should also have nothing to fear!
smartcooky is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2018, 01:11 PM   #5
CaptainHowdy
Graduate Poster
 
CaptainHowdy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,243
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Still waiting for you to answer my questions.
I have answered your questions. I don't know how he was bullied.
CaptainHowdy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2018, 02:11 PM   #6
CaptainHowdy
Graduate Poster
 
CaptainHowdy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,243
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
And you don't see any problem with stating that?
Yes, there is a problem with stating that because a "crisis actor" is (according to wikipedia) a trained actor, role player, volunteer, or other person engaged to portray a disaster victim during emergency drills to train first responders such as police, firefighters or EMT personnel.

That is not what these kids are. I should not have said that they were. That doesn't mean that I buy into the ridiculous conspiracy theory that the students themselves organized a grassroots movement in response to a mass shooting at their school and that's taken over the world because they have the moral imperative. These kids are feeling genuine moral outrage but that outrage is being manipulated by adults behind the scenes and channeled to push a political agenda and has been starting on the day of the shooting.

I don't see any problem with criticizing these kids or calling them out for their BS. They are public figures who deserve to be mocked, ridiculed, and held accountable for what they say and do as much as any public figure. The fact that they are children doesn't mean we should tread lightly in dealing them or worry about hurting their feelings. They don't get a pass just because of what they experienced. The kids who are not in the limelight shouldn't be hounded by the press but Emma and David should have everything they say fact checked and not taken at face value.
CaptainHowdy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2018, 02:29 PM   #7
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 20,667
I'm not saying that the students are crisis actors but they're crisis actors?
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2018, 02:37 PM   #8
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 73,898
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Yes, there is a problem with stating that because a "crisis actor" is (according to wikipedia) a trained actor, role player, volunteer, or other person engaged to portray a disaster victim during emergency drills to train first responders such as police, firefighters or EMT personnel.

That is not what these kids are. I should not have said that they were. That doesn't mean that I buy into the ridiculous conspiracy theory that the students themselves organized a grassroots movement in response to a mass shooting at their school and that's taken over the world because they have the moral imperative. These kids are feeling genuine moral outrage but that outrage is being manipulated by adults behind the scenes and channeled to push a political agenda and has been starting on the day of the shooting.

I don't see any problem with criticizing these kids or calling them out for their BS. They are public figures who deserve to be mocked, ridiculed, and held accountable for what they say and do as much as any public figure. The fact that they are children doesn't mean we should tread lightly in dealing them or worry about hurting their feelings. They don't get a pass just because of what they experienced. The kids who are not in the limelight shouldn't be hounded by the press but Emma and David should have everything they say fact checked and not taken at face value.
No one said they shouldn't be criticized, if the criticism is valid. BUT THE CRITICISM IS CT TERRITORY BS.

What do you have that wasn't pulled out of Ingraham's and Hannity's asses?
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2018, 02:45 PM   #9
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Currently Dismembered
Posts: 7,610
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Yes, there is a problem with stating that because a "crisis actor" is (according to wikipedia) a trained actor, role player, volunteer, or other person engaged to portray a disaster victim during emergency drills to train first responders such as police, firefighters or EMT personnel.

That is not what these kids are. I should not have said that they were. That doesn't mean that I buy into the ridiculous conspiracy theory that the students themselves organized a grassroots movement in response to a mass shooting at their school and that's taken over the world because they have the moral imperative. These kids are feeling genuine moral outrage but that outrage is being manipulated by adults behind the scenes and channeled to push a political agenda and has been starting on the day of the shooting.

I don't see any problem with criticizing these kids or calling them out for their BS. They are public figures who deserve to be mocked, ridiculed, and held accountable for what they say and do as much as any public figure. The fact that they are children doesn't mean we should tread lightly in dealing them or worry about hurting their feelings. They don't get a pass just because of what they experienced. The kids who are not in the limelight shouldn't be hounded by the press but Emma and David should have everything they say fact checked and not taken at face value.
Why do you assume the kids are being manipulated? Teenagers are more savvy than you are giving them credit for; these are not kindergartners. Some are legal adults, and many more close to adulthood. A few being vocal and having a good command of language is incredible to you? Do you recall the speech of your high school valedictorian?
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2018, 04:37 PM   #10
BrooklynBaby
Muse
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 816
Hogg convinced me to join the NRA, so it's not like he accomplished nothing. Trump's voter approval is up to 51% at Rasumssen, and more guns were sold in March than any other March in history, so he had some commendable accomplishments.
BrooklynBaby is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2018, 08:30 PM   #11
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 19,011
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
That is not what these kids are. I should not have said that they were. That doesn't mean that I buy into the ridiculous conspiracy theory that the students themselves organized a grassroots movement
I'm glad we cleared up the "crisis actor" thing.

No one thinks that they organized a movement all by themselves.

Quote:
in response to a mass shooting at their school and that's taken over the world because they have the moral imperative.
They do have the moral imperative.

Quote:
These kids are feeling genuine moral outrage but that outrage is being manipulated by adults behind the scenes
"Manipulated"? That's an odd word to use. Certainly they are in touch with adults. They get advice. They couldn't get permits for marches all over the country, plus a big one on Pennsylvania Avenue, without adult help. But in what sense is it "manipulation"? I'm pretty sure that these kids are on board with the agenda of these behind the scenes adults.

Quote:
and channeled to push a political agenda and has been starting on the day of the shooting.
A "political agenda"? You mean tighter gun controls? Well, yeah. They're pretty up front about that aren't they? I guess it's a "political agenda" because they need legislators, i.e. politicians, to take action, so that phrase isn't completely inappropriate, but usually the idea of a "political agenda" is used when someone takes a stand, not because of principle, but because they think it will get them or their friends elected. e.g. Karl Rove pushed a whole lot of anti-gay marriage proposals in 2004, not because he cared one way or another about gay marriage, but because he knew it was good "get out the vote" material for Republicans.

These kids don't have a secret agenda to elect Democrats. They, and the adults that support them, have a very open agenda to pass stricter gun laws. Since so many current legislators have promised not to tighten those laws, new ones will have to be elected, so I guess that's a political objective, but that's just a means to an end. It's not like they are hiding anything.

Quote:
I don't see any problem with criticizing these kids or calling them out for their BS. They are public figures who deserve to be mocked, ridiculed, and held accountable for what they say and do as much as any public figure.
True, but attack the argument, not the arguer. Do you agree with what they say? Sounds like no. So take issue with what they say. Hold them accountable for what they say, not for "having an agenda", or "being manipulated" or "being children" or whatever. I've heard what they say. I like it. You don't? What's wrong with it?

(Oh, if you could do us a favor, if you choose to talk about what's wrong with it, please discuss what they actually say instead of some bizarre parody of what they say.)

Quote:
The fact that they are children doesn't mean we should tread lightly in dealing them or worry about hurting their feelings. They don't get a pass just because of what they experienced. The kids who are not in the limelight shouldn't be hounded by the press but Emma and David should have everything they say fact checked and not taken at face value.
I agree. They have made themselves public figures. Fact check it all. You can start with your next reply.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 4th April 2018 at 08:32 PM.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2018, 08:58 PM   #12
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,078
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Yes, there is a problem with stating that because a "crisis actor" is (according to wikipedia) a trained actor, role player, volunteer, or other person engaged to portray a disaster victim during emergency drills to train first responders such as police, firefighters or EMT personnel.

That is not what these kids are. I should not have said that they were.
On behalf of the posters in this thread, thank you for admitting that. It would be nice if we could put that bit of foolishness behind all of us completely and let it never be mentioned again. Would you be kind enough to officially retract your "Emma admitted to bullying Cruz and only tinfoil hatters would disagree" claim, too?

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
That doesn't mean that I buy into the ridiculous conspiracy theory that the students themselves organized a grassroots movement in response to a mass shooting at their school and that's taken over the world because they have the moral imperative.
Still, given this, are you sure you actually understand what "conspiracy theory" means? You seem to have your concepts completely backwards. That's before getting to the part where that particular theory seems to be a strange and obvious distortion of descriptions of events that would be entirely reasonable.

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
These kids are feeling genuine moral outrage but that outrage is being manipulated by adults behind the scenes and channeled to push a political agenda and has been starting on the day of the shooting.
Manipulated? Behind the scenes? Starting on the day of the shooting? You've got a bunch of rather questionable claims here. "Manipulating" claims seem to be little more than projection from groups like the NRA, who have been openly trying to manipulate things. Yes, there certainly have been adults that have helped make things happen and helped to direct the energy of those who wanted to do something. Trying to call that manipulation solely for the purpose of trying to treat the kids as blind tools is short-sighted and inconsistent, at best. Behind the scenes? Just like nearly all the details of organization tends to occur "behind the scenes" and frequently not directly by the spokespeople? Channeled to push a political agenda? It is, quite honestly, not surprising in the least that some people, when faced with completely preventable horrors, will become motivated to take action to try to prevent it from happening again or mitigating future damage using a variety of things that they think would help. Starting on the day of the shooting? If you're talking about the kids, specifically, that might maybe pass muster, but is pretty meaningless. If you're trying to use it in a more broad way, you're quite out of touch, to be kind.

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
I don't see any problem with criticizing these kids or calling them out for their BS. They are public figures who deserve to be mocked, ridiculed, and held accountable for what they say and do as much as any public figure.
And praised, supported, and so on, on the other side of things. All of that being contingent on what they actually say, rather than distortions of what they say.

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
The fact that they are children doesn't mean we should tread lightly in dealing them or worry about hurting their feelings. They don't get a pass just because of what they experienced.
Not a free pass, no. On the other hand, I'm reminded of how it's a really bad idea to mock those who are grieving in general.

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
The kids who are not in the limelight shouldn't be hounded by the press but Emma and David should have everything they say fact checked and not taken at face value.
Much like the speakers of the NRA, eh? It's quite fair to fact-check any and all claims, regardless. It's not fair to dismiss claims based on strange distortions of related claims, on the other hand, as you seem intent on doing. Even if you were entirely correct about them being pawns, that still says exactly nothing about how good or bad the actual claims and positions that they're championing are.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

Last edited by Aridas; 4th April 2018 at 09:02 PM.
Aridas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2018, 08:59 PM   #13
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 23,454
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
<snip>

"Manipulated"? That's an odd word to use. Certainly they are in touch with adults. They get advice. They couldn't get permits for marches all over the country, plus a big one on Pennsylvania Avenue, without adult help. But in what sense is it "manipulation"? I'm pretty sure that these kids are on board with the agenda of these behind the scenes adults.

<snip>

When adults organize public demonstrations they solicit and receive help from other adults all the time without dark mutterings of conspiracy.

Why do these people think it is so reprehensible for high school kids to do the same thing?
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2018, 10:25 PM   #14
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 73,898
After letting this nonsense soak in a bit more, I am reminded of my father who during my high school years told me the commies were recruiting kids on college campuses to oppose the Vietnam war.




It was absurd then and it's absurd now thinking someone is manipulating these teen activists. They couldn't be more sincere, IMO.


Oddly, many of the same people making such accusations are oblivious to or they dismiss the manipulation that went on and is going on via internet trolls and bots injecting and amplifying fake stories into the social media stream.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 4th April 2018 at 10:31 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2018, 10:39 PM   #15
Cain
Straussian
 
Cain's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 12,829
Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Hogg convinced me to join the NRA, so it's not like he accomplished nothing. Trump's voter approval is up to 51% at Rasumssen, and more guns were sold in March than any other March in history, so he had some commendable accomplishments.
You sound like an all-around decent person.
__________________
April 13th, 2018:
Ranb: I can't think of anything useful you contributed to a thread in the last few years.
Cain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2018, 11:57 PM   #16
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,804
Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Hogg convinced me to join the NRA, so it's not like he accomplished nothing. Trump's voter approval is up to 51% at Rasumssen, and more guns were sold in March than any other March in history, so he had some commendable accomplishments.
Pick your polls, hey. Then, perhaps, you'll be able to tell us what this has to do with a school shooting in Florida.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th April 2018, 03:52 AM   #17
Border Reiver
Philosopher
 
Border Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 6,604
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
When adults organize public demonstrations they solicit and receive help from other adults all the time without dark mutterings of conspiracy.

Why do these people think it is so reprehensible for high school kids to do the same thing?
It is very much an attack on the arguer, not the argument. Far more easy to pull off than arguing against what is actually being said. By belittling the survivors, it allows people on the other side to demean the argument without having to actually deal with what is being said, making it easier to dismiss.
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?
Border Reiver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th April 2018, 04:03 AM   #18
Border Reiver
Philosopher
 
Border Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 6,604
Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Hogg convinced me to join the NRA, so it's not like he accomplished nothing.
How?

When the World Trade Centre was attacked did that inspire you to join Al Qaeda? Just to be contrarian.

Quote:
Trump's voter approval is up to 51% at Rasumssen,
And this is relevant to the current discussion how?

Quote:
and more guns were sold in March than any other March in history, so he had some commendable accomplishments.
Where are you getting your stats? The number of NCIS checks for March 2018 is up, however it does not correlate to a one for one check to sale ratio (and very clearly says so on the chart).
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?
Border Reiver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th April 2018, 04:29 AM   #19
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 11,633
Beware you NRA and other right-wing special interest groups.. there's a storm a-comin' and its a storm of blue waves!

http://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/w...-1202988611888

Perhaps these kids really are having a very big effect on US politics.

If my understanding of US politics is sound (and I invite correction from more knowledgeable people) a liberal, anti-NRA candidate for a State supreme court seat, winning against an NRA financially backed opponent in Wisconsin (of all places) by 12 points, is simply unheard of, and a shattering result for the Right.
__________________
#THEYAREUS
The Mueller Report must be released to Congress in full - If Trump has nothing to hide, then he should also have nothing to fear!
smartcooky is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th April 2018, 04:36 AM   #20
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 19,011
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Beware you NRA and other right-wing special interest groups.. there's a storm a-comin' and its a storm of blue waves!

http://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/w...-1202988611888

Perhaps these kids really are having a very big effect on US politics.

If my understanding of US politics is sound (and I invite correction from more knowledgeable people) a liberal, anti-NRA candidate for a State supreme court seat, winning against an NRA financially backed opponent in Wisconsin (of all places) by 12 points, is simply unheard of, and a shattering result for the Right.
It's not that big of a deal. Wisconsin is a swing state, not a deep red state. There's some pretty staunch liberals in Wisconsin, It was one of the "surprise" states last November.

It isn't meaningless, but it isn't a clear signal of things to come, either.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th April 2018, 04:38 AM   #21
applecorped
Rotten to the Core
 
applecorped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 19,366
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post

It's good to know that massive trauma doesn't affect one's ability to troll.
__________________
All You Need Is Love.
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th April 2018, 05:19 AM   #22
Worm
Master Poster
 
Worm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Dundee
Posts: 2,781
The criticism of the laudable efforts of the Parklands students that genuinely had me laughing was along the lines of 'no way did they organise such a powerful effort on Social Media'

Because as we all know, teens really struggle with Social Media and need dedicated support from the older generation.

__________________
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" Isaac Asimov

Not all cults are bad - I've joined a cult of niceness
Worm is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th April 2018, 05:23 AM   #23
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 11,955
Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
It's good to know that massive trauma doesn't affect one's ability to troll.
Pain and trauma are often channeled into humor. It's where the best comedy comes from. Which is why it does my heart good to read your posts and know your life must be completely trauma-free.

Last edited by johnny karate; 5th April 2018 at 06:02 AM.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th April 2018, 07:01 AM   #24
qayak
Penultimate Amazing
 
qayak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 13,413
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
That doesn't mean that I buy into the ridiculous conspiracy theory that the students themselves organized a grassroots movement in response to a mass shooting at their school and that's taken over the world bcause tehey have the moral imperative.
That's not the conspiracy theory. That's the fact. The conspiracy theory is that these kids are being manipulated into an anti-gun agenda by Liberals. The fact on that is that they were not manipulated into that agenda but driven to it by paid for lawmakers who will not do anything about the gun crisis in the U.S.

Quote:
These kids are feeling genuine moral outrage but that outrage is being manipulated by adults behind the scenes and channeled to push a political agenda and has been starting on the day of the shooting.
No. these kids are too strong of character to be manipulated like that. The people being manipulated are the weak minded people who regurgitate NRA, and FAUX News, lies about these kids to further the gun nut agenda.

Quote:
I don't see any problem with criticizing these kids or calling them out for their BS.
And by calling them out, you mean making up lies about them and then having your minions restate those lies as if they were gospel.

Quote:
They are public figures who deserve to be mocked, ridiculed, and held accountable for what they say and do as much as any public figure.
Public figures should be mocked, ridiculed, and held accountable for what they say when they say things that are stupid, incorrect, or outright lies. Your beef is with the gun nutters, NRA, FAUX News, and individuals like Ted Nuggent. That's where the BS is coming from.

Quote:
The fact that they are children doesn't mean we should tread lightly in dealing them or worry about hurting their feelings. They don't get a pass just because of what they experienced. The kids who are not in the limelight shouldn't be hounded by the press but Emma and David should have everything they say fact checked and not taken at face value.
You better hope these kids don't get wind of the fact that you are repeating the lies against them. It hasn't gone well for any of the adults who have done the same thing. FAUX News has a reporter taking a surprise vacation because she thought like you do that these were just kids and she was the big, tough adult. These kids don't seem to have any trouble defending themselves when they are given the platform.
__________________
"How long you live, how high you fly
The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry
And all you touch, and all you see
Is all your life will ever be."
qayak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th April 2018, 07:43 AM   #25
CaptainHowdy
Graduate Poster
 
CaptainHowdy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,243
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I didn't know tampons scare politicians. But clear backpacks? Is that going to stop a student from sneaking an AR-15 into the school?
CaptainHowdy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th April 2018, 07:47 AM   #26
qayak
Penultimate Amazing
 
qayak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 13,413
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
I didn't know tampons scare politicians. But clear backpacks? Is that going to stop a student from sneaking an AR-15 into the school?
It's either that or CPR lessons.
__________________
"How long you live, how high you fly
The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry
And all you touch, and all you see
Is all your life will ever be."
qayak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th April 2018, 07:50 AM   #27
CaptainHowdy
Graduate Poster
 
CaptainHowdy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,243
Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
It is very much an attack on the arguer, not the argument. Far more easy to pull off than arguing against what is actually being said. By belittling the survivors, it allows people on the other side to demean the argument without having to actually deal with what is being said, making it easier to dismiss.
What is being said, specifically? What gun control measures are Emma and David proposing? Specifically.
CaptainHowdy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th April 2018, 07:55 AM   #28
CaptainHowdy
Graduate Poster
 
CaptainHowdy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,243
Originally Posted by Worm View Post
The criticism of the laudable efforts of the Parklands students that genuinely had me laughing was along the lines of 'no way did they organise such a powerful effort on Social Media'

Because as we all know, teens really struggle with Social Media and need dedicated support from the older generation.

And people ask me why I think that large swaths of the public believe these kids did all this on their own?
CaptainHowdy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th April 2018, 07:57 AM   #29
CaptainHowdy
Graduate Poster
 
CaptainHowdy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,243
Originally Posted by qayak View Post
That's not the conspiracy theory. That's the fact. The conspiracy theory is that these kids are being manipulated into an anti-gun agenda by Liberals. The fact on that is that they were not manipulated into that agenda but driven to it by paid for lawmakers who will not do anything about the gun crisis in the U.S.



No. these kids are too strong of character to be manipulated like that. The people being manipulated are the weak minded people who regurgitate NRA, and FAUX News, lies about these kids to further the gun nut agenda.



And by calling them out, you mean making up lies about them and then having your minions restate those lies as if they were gospel.



Public figures should be mocked, ridiculed, and held accountable for what they say when they say things that are stupid, incorrect, or outright lies. Your beef is with the gun nutters, NRA, FAUX News, and individuals like Ted Nuggent. That's where the BS is coming from.



You better hope these kids don't get wind of the fact that you are repeating the lies against them. It hasn't gone well for any of the adults who have done the same thing. FAUX News has a reporter taking a surprise vacation because she thought like you do that these were just kids and she was the big, tough adult. These kids don't seem to have any trouble defending themselves when they are given the platform.
And people ask me why I think that large swaths of the public believe these kids did all this on their own?
CaptainHowdy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th April 2018, 07:58 AM   #30
CaptainHowdy
Graduate Poster
 
CaptainHowdy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,243
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
After letting this nonsense soak in a bit more, I am reminded of my father who during my high school years told me the commies were recruiting kids on college campuses to oppose the Vietnam war.




It was absurd then and it's absurd now thinking someone is manipulating these teen activists. They couldn't be more sincere, IMO.


Oddly, many of the same people making such accusations are oblivious to or they dismiss the manipulation that went on and is going on via internet trolls and bots injecting and amplifying fake stories into the social media stream.
And people ask me why I think that large swaths of the public believe these kids did all this on their own?
CaptainHowdy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th April 2018, 08:08 AM   #31
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 19,011
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
What is being said, specifically? What gun control measures are Emma and David proposing? Specifically.
So, you don't know what it is they are asking for, but whatever it is, they are being manipulated, etc. etc.?

https://marchforourlives.com/how-we-save-lives/


Now, I can't say for sure whether Emma and/or David specifically endorse each and every one of these points as written. I just know that whoever owns the web site "March for Our Lives" approved putting those points up, and I know that Emma, David, and the others were instrumental in creating "March for Our Lives".

If you really want to know about Emma, I know that she gave a speech where she had a bunch of people shouting "We call B.S." The "B.S" statements were talking points of the NRA. That's probably a good place to start in understanding her views on gun issues.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th April 2018, 08:12 AM   #32
332nd
Penultimate Amazing
 
332nd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,275
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
And people ask me why I think that large swaths of the public believe these kids did all this on their own?
What about their statements makes you think that Worm, qayak, or Skeptic Ginger believes that the students did all this on their own?
__________________
The poster formerly known as Redtail
332nd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th April 2018, 08:22 AM   #33
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 18,002
I was reading a blog yesterday that pointed out how none of the rightwingers were complaining after Columbine when parents (adults, right?) were using the stories about their kids to promote their own (religious) agenda. Despite the fact that most of the stories even turned out to be apocryphal, and they knew they weren't true (esp the part about getting shot after admitting they believed in God), they continued to go right ahead with the message and selling the books.

Where were the rightwing complaints about that? Nah....

Of course, there were leftwing complaints, but more about the fact that it was based on untrue stories.
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th April 2018, 08:26 AM   #34
Worm
Master Poster
 
Worm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Dundee
Posts: 2,781
Indeed, I've heard at least one 'adult' be very careful to not jump in and manipulate, conscious of the fact that this is not his fight. He just sent a message along the lines of "What you're doing is great. If I can help in any way, then let me know, but just keep doing what you're doing."
__________________
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" Isaac Asimov

Not all cults are bad - I've joined a cult of niceness
Worm is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th April 2018, 09:06 AM   #35
autumn1971
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,731
Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Hogg convinced me to join the NRA, so it's not like he accomplished nothing. Trump's voter approval is up to 51% at Rasumssen, and more guns were sold in March than any other March in history, so he had some commendable accomplishments.
A lot of those guns were sold to leftists. Ask the Romanovs or the French aristocracy how that worked out.
__________________
'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."'
-The Bard
autumn1971 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th April 2018, 09:15 AM   #36
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 20,667
Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
It's good to know that massive trauma doesn't affect one's ability to troll.
Anger and black humour.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th April 2018, 10:19 AM   #37
qayak
Penultimate Amazing
 
qayak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 13,413
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
And people ask me why I think that large swaths of the public believe these kids did all this on their own?
No, we didn't ask. Wide swaths of the public believe this is a kid led movement because kids are leading it.

What we are asking is why you believe these kids are to blame for what happened and why you don't think they should be allowed to express their frustration at a system that has utterly failed them?
__________________
"How long you live, how high you fly
The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry
And all you touch, and all you see
Is all your life will ever be."
qayak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th April 2018, 10:31 AM   #38
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,072
Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
It's good to know that massive trauma doesn't affect one's ability to troll.
Yes. Yes, it is avery good thing. Human powers of recovery are quite remarkable.

eta - It is also good to know that they were able to return to school and continue learning so soon after the traumatic events. Would you agree?
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

Last edited by Steve; 5th April 2018 at 10:33 AM.
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th April 2018, 11:10 AM   #39
Kestrel
Philosopher
 
Kestrel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 5,951
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I was reading a blog yesterday that pointed out how none of the rightwingers were complaining after Columbine when parents (adults, right?) were using the stories about their kids to promote their own (religious) agenda. Despite the fact that most of the stories even turned out to be apocryphal, and they knew they weren't true (esp the part about getting shot after admitting they believed in God), they continued to go right ahead with the message and selling the books.

Where were the rightwing complaints about that? Nah....

Of course, there were leftwing complaints, but more about the fact that it was based on untrue stories.
There were a lot of people spreading the idea that Columbine was an attack of Christians. But there is zero evidence that anyone was targeted for their religion beliefs. They were shot because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. The bomb attempt in the cafeteria made it clear that the killers were not picking and choosing victims.

Some fundamentalist churches in the area did use it to promote their message. One remanent of that still exists in Colorado. You can get special license plates with a Columbine flower that say "Respect Life". Supposedly these are to honor the Columbine victims. But everyone in the state knows the plates are really an anti abortion message.

The gun lobby was somewhat restrained after Columbine but blocked almost anything from being done. They dropped the pretense of being respectful and polite after Sandy Hook. The kids who survived Columbine believed that the adults would do something. Some of them appeared alongside their parents at rallies but let the adults take the lead. The kids at Parkland had a lifetime of watching establishment politicians send thoughts and prayers after each massacre but do nothing to stop it from happening again. The message that guns matter more than people couldn't have been more clear when Congress failed to ban bump stocks after Vegas.
Kestrel is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th April 2018, 11:43 AM   #40
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 11,633
Originally Posted by Worm View Post
The criticism of the laudable efforts of the Parklands students that genuinely had me laughing was along the lines of 'no way did they organise such a powerful effort on Social Media'

Because as we all know, teens really struggle with Social Media and need dedicated support from the older generation.


Oh yes... anyone making such a stupid statement shows that not only do they not understand social media, they severely underestimate its power.
__________________
#THEYAREUS
The Mueller Report must be released to Congress in full - If Trump has nothing to hide, then he should also have nothing to fear!
smartcooky is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:38 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.