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Tags Florida incidents , school incidents , school shootings , shooting incidents

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Old 7th April 2018, 03:01 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
<snip>

These kids have an insight into what it feels like to be in an active shooter situation that I don't have. Their experience doesn't give them any particular insight into the gun control debate. They don't have any moral authority to speak on this issue that we don't have.

I don't think you are using the language in a way that most people would. Getting shot at in their school is exactly something which gives them the moral authority to speak out. Far more than anyone who hasn't been subjected to the results of the toothless laws we have which failed them specifically.

Quote:
I understand that they're been through a traumatic experience and that they're angry. I can forgive them for not being familiar with guns and gun control issues and for speaking out emotionally. But they are unfamiliar with the issue and they are in a charged emotional state. I give them the same courtesy and deference that I give anybody who is passionately arguing a position that they don't know anything about. And you should too.

As others have pointed out above, it is apparent that you have failed to actually pay attention to the things they have been saying.

Much easier to simply cast baseless aspersions on them as a group when you have no arguments of merit or any based on fact.
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Old 7th April 2018, 03:04 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
S.C. Republicans introduce bill to consider secession over gun rights

The bill, which was referred to the state House Judiciary Committee on Thursday, would allow South Carolina lawmakers to debate whether to secede from the United States if the federal government were to violate the Second Amendment.

http://thehill.com/homenews/state-wa...ider-secession

It seems like such a debate would tread on the edges of conspiracy to commit treason.

I hope that the proper authorities will treat it as such if it happens.
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Old 7th April 2018, 07:02 PM   #83
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NRA’s Dana Loesch says MLK might be alive today if he was carrying a concealed weapon.

I suppose the snipers bullet may have hit his concealed weapon and bounced off.
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Old 7th April 2018, 08:44 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
NRA’s Dana Loesch says MLK might be alive today if he was carrying a concealed weapon.

I suppose the snipers bullet may have hit his concealed weapon and bounced off.
Just when you think you've heard the stupidest possible descent into the well of decorticated numskullery someone comes up with something so stupid it seeps through the cracks in the bottom.

Maybe Mr. Loesch should be agitating for a Bobby Seale day next year. After all, it's the Black Panthers who polished up the second amendment.
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Old 7th April 2018, 08:46 PM   #85
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If Dana Loesch wasn't so fundamentally evil, she'd be pretty cute.
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Old 7th April 2018, 09:10 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
NRA’s Dana Loesch says MLK might be alive today if he was carrying a concealed weapon.

I suppose the snipers bullet may have hit his concealed weapon and bounced off.
Maybe I need to look harder, but I can find no such claim from her. She talks about King seeking a concealed carry permit and talks about some of the racist history of early gun control but I can't find her saying what you're describing. I found an article on Raw Story claiming it, but the quotes and links they give don't really support that.
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Old 8th April 2018, 03:44 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
I think debate about the gun laws is great. But it needs to be done rationally.
Perhaps you could lead by example in this area.

So, ignore the Florida kids. They're pretty irrelevant, aren't they? On the other hand, the things they are proposing are pretty much standard fare among gun control advocates. Ban assault weapons. Universal background checks. These aren't ideas that originated with a 17 year old girl who wrote a speech on the back of her AP government notes.

The shootings are MSD High School in Parkland were a flash point that brought the issues up again, and the kids who have been so prominent in the media have been successful at rallying a lot of people who feel that we need stricter gun control, that the easy availability of weapons really is a big part of the problem, and that restricting the availability of weapons really would save lives. The kids who are enjoying their 15 minutes of fame aren't part of that message, so it's ok if you just ignore them totally.

Provide some rational reasons why easy access to high powered guns makes our lives better, and ought to remain legal.
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Old 8th April 2018, 04:01 AM   #88
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Here in Detroit, there's a highly publicized story about a seven year old boy struck by a stray bullet. He's expected to recover. They haven't mentioned what sort of weapon was involved, but witnesses interviewed on TV described a large number of shots fired, and the TV footage noted that the news people could see at least 10 spent casings at the crime scene.


So, I wonder why the shooter needed to fire at least 10 bullets in a short amount of time.

I put "stray bullet" into a google news search. It seems like a lot of people who are doing nothing but minding their own business get hit by gunfire in the US. None f the stories specifically mention what sort of weapon fired the rounds that hit, and in some cases killed, the subjects of these news stories, but the stories frequently describe a shooting incident in which a lot of bullets were fired. It seems to me that a lot of these people firing lots of bullets very fast aren't too careful about what they hit. Maybe if we limited them to something with a lower rate of fire they might be a little more careful, and nly hit the people they are actually aiming at.
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Old 8th April 2018, 05:32 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
S.C. Republicans introduce bill to consider secession over gun rights

The bill, which was referred to the state House Judiciary Committee on Thursday, would allow South Carolina lawmakers to debate whether to secede from the United States if the federal government were to violate the Second Amendment.

http://thehill.com/homenews/state-wa...ider-secession
I wondered what the fine folks who introduced that bill had to say about NFL players "disrespecting" America by kneeling for the National Anthem before games- from a Facebook post by Rep Mike Pitts-

Quote:
It seems quite clear based on these facts that the NFL
has taken a position against any action by NFL players
demonstrating RESPECT for any issue: For God, social
causes such as mental health, cancer, domestic violence,
for cops killed arbitrarily for being cops, for the Memory of 9/11...
But, they will allow demonstrations of DISRESPECT for
our National Flag, our National Anthem, for America, and
for the American People, if it will help mollify a particular
Group and its supporters (such as BLM, and other leftists)
It's hard to imagine anything that shows more "DISRESPECT for... America" than to call for an action you know is treason against it.
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Old 8th April 2018, 05:41 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Just when you think you've heard the stupidest possible descent into the well of decorticated numskullery someone comes up with something so stupid it seeps through the cracks in the bottom.

Maybe Mr. Loesch should be agitating for a Bobby Seale day next year. After all, it's the Black Panthers who polished up the second amendment.
I give you Ted Nugent- when asked by Alex Jones "why liberals hate America and love communism," these were his deep thoughts:
Quote:
Don't ask why. Just know that evil, dishonesty and scam artists have always been around and that right now they're liberal, they're Democrat, they're RINOs, they're Hollywood, they're fake news, they're media, they're academia, and they're half of our government, at least. So come to that realization. There are rabid coyotes running around, you don't wait till you see one to go get your gun, keep your gun handy. And every time you see one, shoot one.
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Old 8th April 2018, 12:07 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
It might seem complex to you but it's simple enough that every other rich country has solved this problem.
No, other rich countries didn't solve this problem because other rich countries never had this problem. America has always had lots of guns but it didn't always have lots of mass shootings. We're 5% of the world's population and we own 50% of the guns in the world.

It's going to take more than simply passing laws that make "weapons of war" and "assault rifles" illegal. I haven't seen any specific proposals to reduce gun violence that aren't so broad as to be meaningless. The talking points on the Marchforourlives website and the MSD student manifesto that have been referenced in this thread have a few suggestions that are worth discussing. But they're buried in simplistic hysterics. The fact that these are considered reasonable actionable suggestions by a majority of people makes me very pessimistic about the ability to actually solve the problem.

The MSD manifesto is particularly depressing because these teenagers are calling for changes that are really not much more than making Federal law conform to California's gun control laws. The problem is that the MSD shooting isn't a failure of gun control. It's a systemic failure that allowed a kid who law enforcement and social services had responded to something like thirty nine times and who was known to be violent was never flagged in any way as somebody who shouldn't be able to buy a gun. Universal background checks and mental health databases are worthless if violent psychos aren't entered into them.

It's understandable why David Hogg and Sheriff Scott Israel want to smear the NRA rather than look at the failures of law enforcement. But if the policies adopted by an out of control PC culture have created a milieu in which we worry about a kid named "Cruz" being stigmatized by being arrested or held for psychiatric observation, we should look at changing those policies. Problems aren't solved by blaming the wrong people.

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However I can understand how you could find it complex if you are struggling with reality as in the following post
I can see that your sense of humor is as well developed as your understanding of practical gun control legislation.
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Old 8th April 2018, 12:29 PM   #92
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CaptainHowdy, what do you think is the half-life of an illegal gun? It's not going to be a treasured heirloom, but potential evidence once it has been used. Criminal guns will have a fairly quick turnover.

At the moment, this is not a problem for criminals as they can easily get replacements. We also know* that ther is a pareto in sources and some gun shops are the ultimate legal source for the criminal guns, getting round the law with straw purchases etc. There are several approachs that at a national level should reduce the problem, (there is evidence that having a jurisdiction with lax gun laws increases the risk of gun crime in neighbouring jurisdictions).

As far as mass shootings are concerned, banning** most types of semi-automatic rifle would be a good start and whilst it might affect hunting as practiced in the US, they're hardly necessary for hunting,compared to bolt-action rifles.


*I am on my phone for the next few weeks, so can't easily find the link.


**Or even requiring something with a similar level of vetting to the Texas CCW permit for semi-automatic rifles.
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Old 8th April 2018, 12:43 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
It's going to take more than simply passing laws that make "weapons of war" and "assault rifles" illegal.

I agree. It will take more.


We have to make those weapons illegal, and we have to do some other things as well.
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Old 8th April 2018, 12:58 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
It's a systemic failure that allowed a kid who law enforcement and social services had responded to something like thirty nine times and who was known to be violent was never flagged in any way as somebody who shouldn't be able to buy a gun. Universal background checks and mental health databases are worthless if violent psychos aren't entered into them.

This approach sounds very good, and I hope it is looked at seriously, but I have my reservations about big databases full of people on "no gun" lists, assuming there is anything other than a criminal violation that can get you put on that list.

In other words, if I report you as a violent person, but you are never convicted of any crime, should you go on the "no gun" list? I'm willing to listen to suggestions on how to expand the background check system so that people like Cruz could have been on the "no gun" side of that ledger, but I worry about Big Brother implications as well.

If everyone were on the "no gun" list, that problem would be solved. I am not willing to go that far, myself, ie. I am not willing to ban all gun sales, but I am willing to ban the vast majority of assault weapons sales, and that would do a lot of good.

Meanwhile, though, this is a bit of a diversion. Our current system of background checks at least keeps those convicted of certain crimes off of the gun sale list, but our friends in the NRA don't want to apply that system universally. What's up with that? We have people saying that the background check should be more thorough than it is now, but then turning around and saying that at least in some circumstanes, no background check should be necessary.
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Old 8th April 2018, 01:20 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
It's going to take more than simply passing laws that make "weapons of war" and "assault rifles" illegal.
Yep. First you will have to create a legal definition of what they are.

e.g. (but not definitive)

Assault Rifle:
1. Any rifle in which rounds are automatically chambered by any kind of mechanism.

2. Any rifle which will fire consecutive shots without requiring the operator to manually re-cock the rifle.

Then you make the sale and ownership of those weapons illegal, and the Government runs an amnesty with an offer to buy back any privately owned weapons. After 12 months, anyone caught in possession of an Assault Rifle has ALL their weapons confiscated, they lose their right to own firearms, and then they are prosecuted (facing possible jail time).
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Old 8th April 2018, 01:32 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
No, other rich countries didn't solve this problem because other rich countries never had this problem. America has always had lots of guns but it didn't always have lots of mass shootings. We're 5% of the world's population and we own 50% of the guns in the world.
This specific problem? Sure. That's sorta what happens when problems weren't nipped in the bud, though, and are allowed to progressively get worse and worse.

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
It's going to take more than simply passing laws that make "weapons of war" and "assault rifles" illegal.
Duh?

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
I haven't seen any specific proposals to reduce gun violence that aren't so broad as to be meaningless.
There's a difference between a general platform/push for action in a particular direction and the specifics, certainly. Are you seriously demanding that the MSD students, who you've been attacking like crazy, should be supplying all the minutia? Going past that, a number of the suggestions are actually quite specific, really, so your standards for broad seem utterly meaningless.

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
The talking points on the Marchforourlives website and the MSD student manifesto that have been referenced in this thread have a few suggestions that are worth discussing. But they're buried in simplistic hysterics.
Then actually address such and a more interesting discussion can be had on the pros and cons of particular points than all these attempts to poison the well, fight strawmen, and employ ad hominems. You've seem to have been being too busy bashing on the people and making yourself look incredibly ignorant or irrational about nearly everything related to the topic instead of doing so, though.

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
The fact that these are considered reasonable actionable suggestions by a majority of people makes me very pessimistic about the ability to actually solve the problem.
Some are quite reasonable, some are rather so less than the others. Of course, then there's what you mean by "solve the problem." The perfect solution fallacy is a terrible defense, as are many of the other dodges that you've tried to employ.

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
The MSD manifesto is particularly depressing because these teenagers are calling for changes that are really not much more than making Federal law conform to California's gun control laws. The problem is that the MSD shooting isn't a failure of gun control.
Correction: It would be far more accurate to say that it's not solely a failure caused by the anti-regulation and get more guns into hands of everyone lobbyists.

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
It's a systemic failure that allowed a kid who law enforcement and social services had responded to something like thirty nine times and who was known to be violent was never flagged in any way as somebody who shouldn't be able to buy a gun.
Pretty much everyone agrees that it was a systemic failure, but those who disagree with you seem to think that it was a more extensive systemic failure than you clearly want to narrow it down to, generally because this isn't even remotely an isolated event. How many school shootings have there been this year, alone, again?

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Universal background checks and mental health databases are worthless if violent psychos aren't entered into them.
Sure. Of course, that's skipping over the fact that there's lots of information of relevance that is entered somewhere but doesn't get to the UBCs, frequently as a result of the pro-gun lobbyists' actions. You're trying to focus on nebulous gross incompetence of individuals, while ignoring the actual suggestions regarding gaping holes in the system itself, by the look of it.

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
It's understandable why David Hogg and Sheriff Scott Israel want to smear the NRA rather than look at the failures of law enforcement. But if the policies adopted by an out of control PC culture have created a milieu in which we worry about a kid named "Cruz" being stigmatized by being arrested or held for psychiatric observation, we should look at changing those policies. Problems aren't solved by blaming the wrong people.
They aren't solved by simply ignoring important factors, sure. Unfortunately, the simple fact is that it gets really, really hard to put much faith in the opinions of people who really need to take heed to the admonition "Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."
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Old 8th April 2018, 02:09 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Maybe if we limited them to something with a lower rate of fire they might be a little more careful, and nly hit the people they are actually aiming at.
What did you have in mind? Restrict semi-automatics?
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Old 8th April 2018, 03:18 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
What did you have in mind? Restrict semi-automatics?
I don't care to get into specific details. I'm not well versed in them. The point is that some guns are made specifically to fire lots of bullets, very fast. By contrast, I own several guns. (I don't use them. I just own them.)

Most of them can fire a bullet, or a shotgun shell, and then you have to work some sort of action to fire a second one, if it's even possible without reloading, and none of them can fire very many. I also own a revolver. If it's fully loaded, I can fire six shots, by pulling the trigger six times. Then, I would have to reload. It's also not very accurate, so the target has to be at close range.

Those characteristics of a revolver make it easy to use as a murder weapon, but also very good as a weapon of self defense. What would I need for self defense? In most scenarios, I need to scare someone away. It's perfect for that. I might have to fire a few shots quickly at an attacker. It's pretty good for that.

If I had an AK-47, I could fire a whole lot of shots before having to take time to reload. I could also fire farther and more accurately. What scenario do I need to be able to do that? If I'm hunting, I don't need to fire lots of shots. In self defense, I don't need to fire long range, and I don't need to fire all that many shots. I could come up with some sort of scenario where I did need to fire lots of shots, but it would be a bizarre fantasy that involved holding out against gangs or someone determined to kill me, and similarly armed. That's never going to happen. I don't need that weapon.

The only people who do need that weapon are people who want to hit a whole lot of moving targets, very quickly, or someone who has to provide suppressing fire during a sustained shootout. I can't think of any good reason that I would want to enable a civilian to perform well in either of those scenarios.

So, I won't be getting into details about exactly which weapons should be banned for future sale. I'll leave that to legislators' staffs. I'll just stick with my earlier comment that I want to ban weapons that can fire lots of bullets real fast. Someone else can define "lots" and "real fast".
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Old 8th April 2018, 03:43 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I don't care to get into specific details. I'm not well versed in them. The point is that some guns are made specifically to fire lots of bullets, very fast. By contrast, I own several guns. (I don't use them. I just own them.)

Most of them can fire a bullet, or a shotgun shell, and then you have to work some sort of action to fire a second one, if it's even possible without reloading, and none of them can fire very many. I also own a revolver. If it's fully loaded, I can fire six shots, by pulling the trigger six times. Then, I would have to reload. It's also not very accurate, so the target has to be at close range.

Those characteristics of a revolver make it easy to use as a murder weapon, but also very good as a weapon of self defense. What would I need for self defense? In most scenarios, I need to scare someone away. It's perfect for that. I might have to fire a few shots quickly at an attacker. It's pretty good for that.

If I had an AK-47, I could fire a whole lot of shots before having to take time to reload. I could also fire farther and more accurately. What scenario do I need to be able to do that? If I'm hunting, I don't need to fire lots of shots. In self defense, I don't need to fire long range, and I don't need to fire all that many shots. I could come up with some sort of scenario where I did need to fire lots of shots, but it would be a bizarre fantasy that involved holding out against gangs or someone determined to kill me, and similarly armed. That's never going to happen. I don't need that weapon.

The only people who do need that weapon are people who want to hit a whole lot of moving targets, very quickly, or someone who has to provide suppressing fire during a sustained shootout. I can't think of any good reason that I would want to enable a civilian to perform well in either of those scenarios.

So, I won't be getting into details about exactly which weapons should be banned for future sale. I'll leave that to legislators' staffs. I'll just stick with my earlier comment that I want to ban weapons that can fire lots of bullets real fast. Someone else can define "lots" and "real fast".
You are missing the chance to salivate over the difference between a .223 and a 5.56mm round and to slate anyone who doesn't know the difference.
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Old 8th April 2018, 04:22 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
No, other rich countries didn't solve this problem because other rich countries never had this problem. America has always had lots of guns but it didn't always have lots of mass shootings. We're 5% of the world's population and we own 50% of the guns in the world.
Your neighbour to the North has about 1/2 the guns per 100 people. That is still a lot of guns. And as a G7 nation, I'd consider us "rich."

Based on stats, I'd say that mass shootings have existed as least as long as multi-shot firearms, but here's a list starting at 1929.

Quote:
It's going to take more than simply pastsing laws that make "weapons of war" and "assault rifles" illegal. I haven't seen any specific proposals to reduce gun violence that aren't so broad as to be meaningless. The talking points on the Marchforourlives website and the MSD student manifesto that have been referenced in this thread have a few suggestions that are worth discussing. But they're buried in simplistic hysterics. The fact that these are considered reasonable actionable suggestions by a majority of people makes me very pessimistic about the ability to actually solve the problem.
Given that the NRA standard response to gun violence is either "more guns" or "it's so complex that just changing one aspect won't have a dramatic effect, so it's best not to get rid of guns until we've got the perfect solution."

What's your solution?

Quote:
The MSD manifesto is particularly depressing because these teenagers are calling for changes that are really not much more than making Federal law conform to California's gun control laws. The problem is that the MSD shooting isn't a failure of gun control. It's a systemic failure that allowed a kid who law enforcement and social services had responded to something like thirty nine times and who was known to be violent was never flagged in any way as somebody who shouldn't be able to buy a gun. Universal background checks and mental health databases are worthless if violent psychos aren't entered into them.
and we're back to "The system didn't work - therefore we shouldn't do anything to change/improve the system because human error will cause any system to fail."

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It's understandable why David Hogg and Sheriff Scott Israel want to smear the NRA rather than look at the failures of law enforcement. But if the policies adopted by an out of control PC culture have created a milieu in which we worry about a kid named "Cruz" being stigmatized by being arrested or held for psychiatric observation, we should look at changing those policies. Problems aren't solved by blaming the wrong people.
Absolutely correct. However, nothing precludes tackling multiple aspects of the violence problem. Mental health is one facet, access to guns is another, dealing with other social issues is still another.
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Old 8th April 2018, 09:38 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Absolutely correct. However, nothing precludes tackling multiple aspects of the violence problem. Mental health is one facet, access to guns is another, dealing with other social issues is still another.
Its clear that NRA gun-nuts cannot multi-task. They are insisting that any solution be of the single, simple "one-size-fits-all" type, and that it does not involve any restriction on gun ownership.
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Old 8th April 2018, 10:25 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
What did you have in mind? Restrict semi-automatics?
Restrict all handguns. Their only purpose is to kill people.
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Old 9th April 2018, 07:07 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Then again, why SHOULD the school students have to be the ones to come up with policy proposals to do things like, prevent school shootings?

<snip>

I've pointed this out before. The most important thing the Parkland students are doing is to highlight the problem.

<snip>

Don't leave this up to high school students to solve. Be grown ups. But, above all, do something about it!
Thank you. These points need to be made. And repeated.

If adults don't like kids preaching to them, then the adults should maybe act more like adults.
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Old 9th April 2018, 07:14 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I don't care to get into specific details. I'm not well versed in them. The point is that some guns are made specifically to fire lots of bullets, very fast. By contrast, I own several guns. (I don't use them. I just own them.)

Most of them can fire a bullet, or a shotgun shell, and then you have to work some sort of action to fire a second one, if it's even possible without reloading, and none of them can fire very many. I also own a revolver. If it's fully loaded, I can fire six shots, by pulling the trigger six times. Then, I would have to reload. It's also not very accurate, so the target has to be at close range.

Those characteristics of a revolver make it easy to use as a murder weapon, but also very good as a weapon of self defense. What would I need for self defense? In most scenarios, I need to scare someone away. It's perfect for that. I might have to fire a few shots quickly at an attacker. It's pretty good for that.

If I had an AK-47, I could fire a whole lot of shots before having to take time to reload. I could also fire farther and more accurately. What scenario do I need to be able to do that? If I'm hunting, I don't need to fire lots of shots. In self defense, I don't need to fire long range, and I don't need to fire all that many shots. I could come up with some sort of scenario where I did need to fire lots of shots, but it would be a bizarre fantasy that involved holding out against gangs or someone determined to kill me, and similarly armed. That's never going to happen. I don't need that weapon.

The only people who do need that weapon are people who want to hit a whole lot of moving targets, very quickly, or someone who has to provide suppressing fire during a sustained shootout. I can't think of any good reason that I would want to enable a civilian to perform well in either of those scenarios.

So, I won't be getting into details about exactly which weapons should be banned for future sale. I'll leave that to legislators' staffs. I'll just stick with my earlier comment that I want to ban weapons that can fire lots of bullets real fast. Someone else can define "lots" and "real fast".
I think that's all pretty clear, thanks. Point made with no technical jargon needed.
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Old 9th April 2018, 09:10 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Thank you. These points need to be made. And repeated.

If adults don't like kids preaching to them, then the adults should maybe act more like adults.
The problem, of course, is that "doing something about the problem" requires that you admit there is a problem in the first place.

How much of this attack on the kids and their plans or lack of them or whatever is merely an attempt to distract from the fact that they don't care? Do they agree school shootings are a problem that needs to be addressed? I'm not convinced that they do. They think protecting gun rights is a more important problem than preventing school shootings, to the extent that they won't even think about reasonable non-gun control measures, because they would open the door for gun control. Notice that their only solution to school shootings is "more guns." And if that is coming from the NRA, how do you distinguish it from marketing?
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Old 12th April 2018, 10:38 AM   #106
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Cruz just said that he wants all of his inheritance money to go to the victims' families... or to charities of their choice. It is potentially $800,000.
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Old 12th April 2018, 07:24 PM   #107
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I can't find it now, but I was seeing earlier tonight about an ex-marine and MAGA-type who made a video of himself shooting at a cardboard cutout of David Hogg.

Yeah, that's right. Trump supporter, classy NRA guy is making a big deal about shooting the picture of a guy who survived a school shooting.

But whatever you do, don't call him deplorable, right?

Apparently, he had it pinned at the top of his Twitter account. Not some accidental thing or anything, he was friggin proud of it.

But apparently#2, his Twitter account is now gone.

I'm sure the NRA is proud of this guy, right?
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Old 12th April 2018, 07:27 PM   #108
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Brilliant!

Quote:
A teacher at the Parkland, Florida, high school where 17 students and teachers were shot to death was arrested for allegedly leaving a loaded gun in a public bathroom.

A homeless man is accused of picking it up and firing it.

...

In an interview with MSNBC after the shooting, Simpson said he might be willing to carry a gun to protect his students.

"I don't know if that's the answer, but I know that there are some of us that are willing to take the training if it was offered and probably be another line of defense, but again it's a complicated subject and I'm not sure if it's the answer," Simpson said. "I think it's easier to get these type weapons out of the hands of people that aren't meant to do anything but kill."
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Old 12th April 2018, 07:29 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I don't think you are using the language in a way that most people would. Getting shot at in their school is exactly something which gives them the moral authority to speak out. Far more than anyone who hasn't been subjected to the results of the toothless laws we have which failed them specifically.




As others have pointed out above, it is apparent that you have failed to actually pay attention to the things they have been saying.

Much easier to simply cast baseless aspersions on them as a group when you have no arguments of merit or any based on fact.
By your logic if we have a murder trial we should compose the jury of victims of as similar a crime as possible. After all they have experience.
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Old 12th April 2018, 07:30 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I can't find it now, but I was seeing earlier tonight about an ex-marine and MAGA-type who made a video of himself shooting at a cardboard cutout of David Hogg.

Yeah, that's right. Trump supporter, classy NRA guy is making a big deal about shooting the picture of a guy who survived a school shooting.

But whatever you do, don't call him deplorable, right?

Apparently, he had it pinned at the top of his Twitter account. Not some accidental thing or anything, he was friggin proud of it.

But apparently#2, his Twitter account is now gone.

I'm sure the NRA is proud of this guy, right?

A guy who used to have a radio talk show in Saint Louis said he wanted to sodomize Mr. Hogg using a fireplace poker. He said it on his radio show, on what turned out to be the last day of the show.


What I see in incidents like this is a sort of pseudo-machismo. A "Ha! I am powerful! I can hurt you!" behavior. It's kind of sick.
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Old 12th April 2018, 07:33 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
A guy who used to have a radio talk show in Saint Louis said he wanted to sodomize Mr. Hogg using a fireplace poker. He said it on his radio show, on what turned out to be the last day of the show.


What I see in incidents like this is a sort of pseudo-machismo. A "Ha! I am powerful! I can hurt you!" behavior. It's kind of sick.
You call it "pseudo-machismo." I just call them ********.

Either way, yep, it's pretty sick.
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Old 12th April 2018, 07:33 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yep. First you will have to create a legal definition of what they are.

e.g. (but not definitive)

Assault Rifle:
1. Any rifle in which rounds are automatically chambered by any kind of mechanism.

2. Any rifle which will fire consecutive shots without requiring the operator to manually re-cock the rifle.

Then you make the sale and ownership of those weapons illegal, and the Government runs an amnesty with an offer to buy back any privately owned weapons. After 12 months, anyone caught in possession of an Assault Rifle has ALL their weapons confiscated, they lose their right to own firearms, and then they are prosecuted (facing possible jail time).
Gravity hopper and electronic tiny slide.

Just got around your law, try again.
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Old 12th April 2018, 07:53 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Gravity hopper and electronic tiny slide.

Just got around your law, try again.
Hmmm.....you must be pretty good at this. Maybe you can get a job on the legislative staff of the people who have to write the actual definition that goes into the actual law.
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Old 12th April 2018, 09:27 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
By your logic if we have a murder trial we should compose the jury of victims of as similar a crime as possible. After all they have experience.

I'm not sure what bizarre and tortured steps you used to arrive at this association, but it certainly doesn't resemble anything a sane, normal person
with an I.Q. above room temperature would conclude.

What does having the moral authority to speak out on a subject have to do with fitness to serve on a jury?
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Old 12th April 2018, 10:38 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Gravity hopper and electronic tiny slide.

Just got around your law, try again.
One could define it in terms of projectile velocity, kinetic energy and rate of fire, as well as size or weight. As I am unaware of any massacres usein such devices, I guess that semi-automatic rifles are more efficient than your suggestion.


ETA - or indeed have experts draft the law


Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
You call it "pseudo-machismo." I just call them ********.

Either way, yep, it's pretty sick.
It is almost as though the gun nuts are the ones expressing irrational emotions. It *really* is a religion to some, and the victims are attacking their god.
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Old 13th April 2018, 12:07 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
By your logic if we have a murder trial we should compose the jury of victims of as similar a crime as possible. After all they have experience.
Can you explain how you get to that conclusion?
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Old 13th April 2018, 12:12 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
A guy who used to have a radio talk show in Saint Louis said he wanted to sodomize Mr. Hogg using a fireplace poker. He said it on his radio show, on what turned out to be the last day of the show.


What I see in incidents like this is a sort of pseudo-machismo. A "Ha! I am powerful! I can hurt you!" behavior. It's kind of sick.
"kind of sick" slight understatement!

One would hope this has come to law enforcement attention. I would go as far as saying that something like this outburst is a reason for someone to not be allowed to own firearms. He is obviously a mentally unwell person and until he is treated he shouldn't be allowed near lethal
weapons.
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Old 13th April 2018, 12:16 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Gravity hopper and electronic tiny slide.

Just got around your law, try again.
Many countries in the world seem to be able to create workable legislation that restrict access to the weapons of the type Meadmaker describes. So if USA legislators are struggling they can copy and paste from those!
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Old 13th April 2018, 01:58 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Many countries in the world seem to be able to create workable legislation that restrict access to the weapons of the type Meadmaker describes. So if USA legislators are struggling they can copy and paste from those!
The circumstances between those countries is completely different, so copy and paste would not work.

In the UK when it came to restricting access to certain types of weapons, the police knew who had 99% of them due to the pre existing licensing system which required owners to register each gun, including its serial number. Gangs, criminals and angry youths had very few unlicensed guns between them. The sum total of guns to be seized was in the hundreds of thousands.

It was quiet straightforward to go get the now restricted guns and the effect was to remove 99% of them from civilian hands. There was also no danger to the police from the civilians as there was limited opposition to the seizures and none was expressed in terms of violence and armed resistance.

The USA has significantly more guns in circulation than in the UK, many millions. Many, if not most are at unknown locations with unknown people. Many of those people are gangs, criminals, angry youths. Many have expressed the intention to fight to keep their weapons.

Now, go get the USA police to seize an unknown amount of guns, off an unknown group of people, many of whom will shoot back, using British copy and pasted legislation......
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Old 13th April 2018, 02:07 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Gravity hopper and electronic tiny slide.

Just got around your law, try again.
Still a mechanism, powering it by electricity wouldn't get round it.
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