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Old 20th May 2019, 12:54 PM   #121
Itchy Boy
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So, you believe vaccines are 100% safe? Nobody has died or developed chronic conditions as a result of a vaccine?

If you admit that there have been deaths from vaccines, as evidenced by payouts from the Vaccine Injury Compensation Fund, then how can you in good conscience support forced vaccinations?

If you think there have been zero deaths from vaccines, you would be mistaken.

So the question becomes, how many deaths from forced vaccines would be acceptable to you in return for supposed 'herd immunity'.
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Old 20th May 2019, 12:57 PM   #122
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Once again: in 99.8% of cases measles is not deadly, so generally treating it as not deadly is perfectly understandable. Choosing not to bother to guard against that 0.2% possibility even once it is possible to do so is not understandable, it's stupid.
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Old 20th May 2019, 01:00 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
So, you believe vaccines are 100% safe?
Nobody has said that. What is being said is that being vaccinated is safer that not being vaccinated.
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Old 20th May 2019, 01:03 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
There is no test to determine if you're at risk of blindness or death if you get measles either. So every shot you don't get is also playing Russian Roulette.
You could say just living is playing RR by your logic. Crossing the street is playing RR. It's a specious argument.

The real point here is that vaccines are not 100% safe, and so to force them on people is immoral. If the 'authorities' can inject whatever they want into us by force, we are no better than cattle.
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Old 20th May 2019, 01:10 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Once again: in 99.8% of cases measles is not deadly, so generally treating it as not deadly is perfectly understandable. Choosing not to bother to guard against that 0.2% possibility even once it is possible to do so is not understandable, it's stupid.
What concerns me is that, stupid or not, my right to choose is going to disappear.
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Old 20th May 2019, 01:16 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
And yes, we absolutely DO have the right to perform medical procedures without informed consent (read up on the concept of implied consent for the most common example).

Ahh thanks for the update. I was always under the impression we are all born with equal rights.
But apparently, according to you, some people have more rights than others. How does that work? Who has the right to bestow superior rights on certain individuals?

I guess you believe some people are naturally born with more rights than you.
You are having trouble reading. This is what we call a straw man argument; I never claimed some people have more rights than others.

However, it is obvious to anyone who has two brain cells to rub together that rights clash. The famous saying being that my right to swing my arms ends at your nose. In this case, a nebulous "right to choose" based in ignorance of the facts and mis-information does NOT trump a right to health and safety for everyone you come in contact with.

ETA: And no one is saying there's no risk from vaccines, but that the risk is so low that complaining about it as "murder" shows nothing but a lack of understanding. You are more likely to have an adverse event from going to the DMV to register your vehicle, yet no one is up in arms claiming that "vehicle registration is murder!!!!!!11111eventy!!!!
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Old 20th May 2019, 01:20 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Nobody has said that. What is being said is that being vaccinated is safer that not being vaccinated.
OK. So you concede that vaccines can kill - no matter how rarely? Sure they can, or death wouldn't be listed in the insert.
Of course, no drug or vaccine has ever been taken off the market because it was killing people, after having been 'proven' safe in all the studies and trials it had to pass before being sold.

Let's just have blind faith in Big Pharma who have no agenda other than to make people well so that they may lose customers and see their profits shrink.

Now, if a vaccine is mandatory for everyone, and we know some will die from it, how many deaths would be acceptable to you? Just give me a number.
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Old 20th May 2019, 01:23 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
You are having trouble reading. This is what we call a straw man argument; I never claimed some people have more rights than others.

However, it is obvious to anyone who has two brain cells to rub together that rights clash. The famous saying being that my right to swing my arms ends at your nose. In this case, a nebulous "right to choose" based in ignorance of the facts and mis-information does NOT trump a right to health and safety for everyone you come in contact with.

ETA: And no one is saying there's no risk from vaccines, but that the risk is so low that complaining about it as "murder" shows nothing but a lack of understanding. You are more likely to have an adverse event from going to the DMV to register your vehicle, yet no one is up in arms claiming that "vehicle registration is murder!!!!!!11111eventy!!!!
If someone has the right to forcefully inject you, it means they have more rights than you do.
If vaccines can kill, no matter how rarely, how many deaths are acceptable to you to achieve 'herd immunity'. Give me a number.
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Old 20th May 2019, 01:57 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Now, if a vaccine is mandatory for everyone, and we know some will die from it, how many deaths would be acceptable to you? Just give me a number.
One less than the number who would die as a result of not being vaccinated.
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Old 20th May 2019, 04:11 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
One less than the number who would die as a result of not being vaccinated.
How about a real answer? If someone dies because they didn't vaccinate, then that's their choice. We're talking about forcing a product and medical procedure on people *against their will*. A product that is known to kill some people.

Vaccinate enough people and you're guaranteed some deaths.

Arbitrarily, let's say 1 in a million will die from a vaccine. If 100 million are given the vaccine, about 100 will die. Is that acceptable? Too high?
OK, 1 in 10 million will die. That's only 10 deaths from the vaccine. Is that number OK with you?

What's your threshold? Give me a number instead of a cop out.
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Old 20th May 2019, 04:26 PM   #131
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You are repeating all the same arguments, ItchyBoy, that anti-vaxxers with a poor understanding of science and evidence based medicine use. In addition you appear to have a narrow view of who does medical research, especially vaccine research.

The vast majority of public health professionals and researchers don't work for BigPharma, they aren't in on the conspiracy you imagine controls medical knowledge. Not to mention the USA is only one of many countries that research vaccines.

We have a dozen or more anti-vaxxer threads. I think it's time to dredge one up where you can review all of the evidence already posted refuting your unsupported assertions.

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy
If someone dies because they didn't vaccinate, then that's their choice.
And if a person too young to be vaccinated or who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons dies because they got measles from an unvaccinated person, that was the unvaccinated person's choice that caused the death of another person.
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Old 20th May 2019, 04:47 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
How about a real answer? If someone dies because they didn't vaccinate, then that's their choice. We're talking about forcing a product and medical procedure on people *against their will*. A product that is known to kill some people.

Vaccinate enough people and you're guaranteed some deaths.

Arbitrarily, let's say 1 in a million will die from a vaccine. If 100 million are given the vaccine, about 100 will die. Is that acceptable? Too high?
OK, 1 in 10 million will die. That's only 10 deaths from the vaccine. Is that number OK with you?

What's your threshold? Give me a number instead of a cop out.
1. What if I die because someone else chose to not get vaccinated? Upthread I described how I am immunosuppressed due to a serious medical condition and that although I was extensively vaccinated in the past I am currently no longer immune to many of these diseases and cannot be re-vaccinated because of my condition. I have a high risk of dying if I get measles or several of these other diseases. So can the many millions of new born babies who are too young to be effectively vaccinated. The decision does not just affect the anti-vaxxer anymore than would a decision to ignore a traffic stop sign or red light.

2. Vaccines are always evaluated for the risk of the disease versus the risk of the vaccine. Do you think that doctors never thought of it? Your scenario does not exist for the very reason that doctors and epidemiologists do not consider such a risk/benefit acceptable and none of the vaccines released for use have anywhere never such a high risk/low benefit ratio! The risk of the disease is always much higher than risk of the vaccine. And no fair stating that the rates and risks of many of these diseases are now relatively low based on the currently vaccinated population (something I've seen on anti-vax sites); obviously the relevant rate/risk statistics are for populations not vaccinated.
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Old 20th May 2019, 05:17 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You are repeating all the same arguments, ItchyBoy, that anti-vaxxers with a poor understanding of science and evidence based medicine use. In addition you appear to have a narrow view of who does medical research, especially vaccine research.

The vast majority of public health professionals and researchers don't work for BigPharma, they aren't in on the conspiracy you imagine controls medical knowledge. Not to mention the USA is only one of many countries that research vaccines.

We have a dozen or more anti-vaxxer threads. I think it's time to dredge one up where you can review all of the evidence already posted refuting your unsupported assertions.

And if a person too young to be vaccinated or who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons dies because they got measles from an unvaccinated person, that was the unvaccinated person's choice that caused the death of another person.
Science? OK. The most basic study that can be done to assess the efficacy and safety of vaccines is to compare the long term health outcomes for the fully vaccinated vs the unvaccinated.
The only such study I'm aware of was an independent pilot study of some 650 people. It showed that the vaccinated had a poorer outcome than the unvaccinated.

That was a pilot study with a small sample size. Where are the large studies to refute the findings of the pilot study? Where's the evidence that the fully vaccinated are healthier than the unvaccinated?
There isn't any, because the study to determine this has never been done.

The reason, we're told, is that it would be unethical to withhold vaccine from the control group. In other words, it's unethical to NOT inject a heathy person with an experimental substance that contains toxins along with unwanted material that the filtering process doesn't catch. Meanwhile, these same companies, when testing a drug, can withhold a potentially helpful substance from sick people who might benefit. So the whole 'ethical' argument is bogus.

They won't do the study because they know the result won't look good for them. Of course, it's just coincidence that along with the rise in the vaccine schedule, we've seen a dramatic rise in autoimmune diseases, chronic conditions, and neurological impairment.

The fact that such a study has not been done and the reason [for that] is confirmed in the 9 hour deposition of Dr. Stanley Plotkin.
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Old 20th May 2019, 05:37 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
1. What if I die because someone else chose to not get vaccinated? Upthread I described how I am immunosuppressed due to a serious medical condition and that although I was extensively vaccinated in the past I am currently no longer immune to many of these diseases and cannot be re-vaccinated because of my condition. I have a high risk of dying if I get measles or several of these other diseases. So can the many millions of new born babies who are too young to be effectively vaccinated. The decision does not just affect the anti-vaxxer anymore than would a decision to ignore a traffic stop sign or red light.

2. Vaccines are always evaluated for the risk of the disease versus the risk of the vaccine. Do you think that doctors never thought of it? Your scenario does not exist for the very reason that doctors and epidemiologists do not consider such a risk/benefit acceptable and none of the vaccines released for use have anywhere never such a high risk/low benefit ratio! The risk of the disease is always much higher than risk of the vaccine. And no fair stating that the rates and risks of many of these diseases are now relatively low based on the currently vaccinated population (something I've seen on anti-vax sites); obviously the relevant rate/risk statistics are for populations not vaccinated.
I sympathize with your condition, but it's up to you to take precautions. Instead, you want to FORCE me to risk death, no matter how small the risk, to theoretically protect you.

Risk/benefit ratios are just statistics. If your loved one is the unlucky 1 in a million to die from the vaccine, how is that 'risk/benefit ratio' working for you?

If you live in a society where vaccines are mandatory, you are not 'free' in any sense of the word. How can anyone think they're 'free' if the state can violate your body at its pleasure? How can people not see that in that case, they don't own their own body - the state does.

Vaccination isn't just a public health issue. It's a freedom issue. Making vaccines mandatory is tyranny. For me, tyranny is too high a price to pay for some theoretical protection against any disease.
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Old 20th May 2019, 06:08 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
You are having trouble reading. This is what we call a straw man argument; I never claimed some people have more rights than others.

However, it is obvious to anyone who has two brain cells to rub together that rights clash. The famous saying being that my right to swing my arms ends at your nose. In this case, a nebulous "right to choose" based in ignorance of the facts and mis-information does NOT trump a right to health and safety for everyone you come in contact with.

ETA: And no one is saying there's no risk from vaccines, but that the risk is so low that complaining about it as "murder" shows nothing but a lack of understanding. You are more likely to have an adverse event from going to the DMV to register your vehicle, yet no one is up in arms claiming that "vehicle registration is murder!!!!!!11111eventy!!!!
It doesn't matter how low the risk of death from a vaccine is. Forcing vaccines on everyone will cause some death. What's your threshold? How many deaths are 'worth it'? Madelaine Albright, answering a question about the Iraq war, said the death of 50,000 Iraqi children was 'worth it'.
That's an example of the kind of monsters that are in charge of things.

Your DMV example doesn't wash. Nobody forces you to get a driver's licence if you don't drive.
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Old 20th May 2019, 06:28 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
We have a dozen or more anti-vaxxer threads. I think it's time to dredge one up where you can review all of the evidence already posted refuting your unsupported assertions.

.
What unsupported assertion did I make?
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Old 20th May 2019, 07:42 PM   #137
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Here's 8 minutes of vaccine science from Dr. Stanley Plotkin - considered the 'godfather' of vaccines. For those who say science has proven vaccines don't cause autism. There is insufficient data to say whether vaccines do or do not cause autism. The science is not settled.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xj_jozfvjuU
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Old 20th May 2019, 07:58 PM   #138
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I don’t understand the “Measles and Mumps were no big deal in the old days,” argument -it’s nonsensical. Those diseases were a big deal, it was just an incredibly common big deal that everyone had to suffer. And for most people individually, it wasn’t all that big a deal. But thousands of people around the world died from it. Thousands more were sick enough to be hospitalized and suffered lasting consequences. I’d wager that to those people and their families (and the people who had to pay for their healthcare) it was a big deal. The comedy writers who wrote Marcia Brady’s illness (and Wilma Flintstone’s before that) into the plot were just reflecting a common experience and ignoring the serious side of the illness.

Vaccines made all that suffering go away. It boggles my mind that people are stupid enough to want to go back to those days. It’s like saying, “Aw c’mon...people lived just fine before public sanitation! Who needs sewers!”
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Old 20th May 2019, 08:23 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
How about a real answer? If someone dies because they didn't vaccinate, then that's their choice.
In the majority of cases it's actually the choice of their parents, not them. Children are not their parents' property, they have rights of their own, including the right to be protected from potentially life threatening diseases no matter how stupid and ignorant their parents are. You are proposing that such children should be denied that right.
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Old 20th May 2019, 08:33 PM   #140
Giordano
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
I sympathize with your condition, but it's up to you to take precautions. Instead, you want to FORCE me to risk death, no matter how small the risk, to theoretically protect you.

Risk/benefit ratios are just statistics. If your loved one is the unlucky 1 in a million to die from the vaccine, how is that 'risk/benefit ratio' working for you?

If you live in a society where vaccines are mandatory, you are not 'free' in any sense of the word. How can anyone think they're 'free' if the state can violate your body at its pleasure? How can people not see that in that case, they don't own their own body - the state does.

Vaccination isn't just a public health issue. It's a freedom issue. Making vaccines mandatory is tyranny. For me, tyranny is too high a price to pay for some theoretical protection against any disease.
What "precautions" do you suggest? Stay at home, quit my job, and don't come near my wife, kids, or friends because they have to live in the real world? The exposure of new borne before they can be vaccinated is also difficult to avoid. All because you don't understand (or want to understand) that even your own risk from the vacine is a tiny fraction of your risk from the disease? Oh that's a great suggestion! And I notice you have abandoned your statement that your choice doesn't affect anyone else; now you are just saying you don't really give a **** about these others, that we are not your problem.

One has to plan one's life based on relative risks. Almost everyone does whether they consciously know it or not. I bet you do all the time. Sure it sucks to be that person who is killed by being rear-ended because they legally stopped at a stop sign but most people realize they are a hell of a lot more likely to be killed if they routinely ruin stop signs. So they don't.

At the libertarian business about freedom is crap. We live in a civilization and a society. We morally owe things to other people as a result. It is illegal to run stop signs because of the danger one puts other members of society into. Not being vaccinated similarly places others at risk of disease and death. So vaccinations involve a needle prick instead of the position of your break pedal; oh what a terrible invasion of your freedoms!!

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Old 20th May 2019, 08:39 PM   #141
Itchy Boy
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I don’t understand the “Measles and Mumps were no big deal in the old days,” argument -it’s nonsensical. Those diseases were a big deal, it was just an incredibly common big deal that everyone had to suffer. And for most people individually, it wasn’t all that big a deal. But thousands of people around the world died from it. Thousands more were sick enough to be hospitalized and suffered lasting consequences. I’d wager that to those people and their families (and the people who had to pay for their healthcare) it was a big deal. The comedy writers who wrote Marcia Brady’s illness (and Wilma Flintstone’s before that) into the plot were just reflecting a common experience and ignoring the serious side of the illness.

Vaccines made all that suffering go away. It boggles my mind that people are stupid enough to want to go back to those days. It’s like saying, “Aw c’mon...people lived just fine before public sanitation! Who needs sewers!”
I lived through it. Measles, mumps, chicken pox. It was no big deal in North America. Sure in countries where there wasn't proper sanitation and hygene, those diseases could have more dire consequences because of other underlying conditions. Vitamin A deficiency in the case of measles, for example.

But in otherwise healthy people those diseases posed no major threat. Certainly nothing like the current measles hysteria. Yes, they wrote reflecting the attitude at the time. If those diseases were of great public concern, don't you think that would be public knowledge and nobody would be having measles parties?

Big Pharma spends a lot of advertising dollars and if they want to spread hysteria where none is warranted, they have the motive and financial clout to do so and that's exactly what they have done.
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Old 20th May 2019, 09:07 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
You could say just living is playing RR by your logic. Crossing the street is playing RR. It's a specious argument.

The real point here is that vaccines are not 100% safe, and so to force them on people is immoral. If the 'authorities' can inject whatever they want into us by force, we are no better than cattle.

We can designate a nice island for those who do not wish to be vaccinated. Don't want the shot? You don't get to live with the rest of us.

Problem solved. You are no longer being forced to be vaccinated.
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Old 20th May 2019, 09:16 PM   #143
Itchy Boy
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
What "precautions" do you suggest? Stay at home, quit my job, and don't come near my wife, kids, or friends because they have to live in the real world? The exposure of new borne before they can be vaccinated is also difficult to avoid. All because you don't understand (or want to understand) that even your own risk from the vacine is a tiny fraction of your risk from the disease? Oh that's a great suggestion! And I notice you have abandoned your statement that your choice doesn't affect anyone else; now you are just saying you don't really give a **** about these others, that we are not your problem.

One has to plan one's life based on relative risks. Almost everyone does whether they consciously know it or not. I bet you do all the time. Sure it sucks to be that person who is killed by being rear-ended because they legally stopped at a stop sign but most people realize they are a hell of a lot more likely to be killed if they routinely ruin stop signs. So they don't.

At the libertarian business about freedom is crap. We live in a civilization and a society. We morally owe things to other people as a result. It is illegal to run stop signs because of the danger one puts other members of society into. Not being vaccinated similarly places others at risk of disease and death. So vaccinations involve a needle prick instead of the position of your break pedal; oh what a terrible invasion of your freedoms!!
If you're in America, what precautions are you taking now? You do realize roughly half the U.S. population haven't had their boosters and have no measles immunity at this time? Have you seen any outbreaks of measles in newborns lately?

If people want to have blind faith that what they're being injected with will never harm them - fine. That is a risk they chose and in most cases, no harm done. But mistakes happen. Bad batches get out to the public. Hey, hundreds or thousands who were given the vaccine against their will could die, but who cares? It's worth it, right?

You know the expression, "Your freedom to swing your fists ends just where my nose begins." Running a stop sign is swinging your fist. Not vaccinating is not swinging a fist. Not vaccinating doesn't place anyone at the same risk as running a stop sign. So I don't accept the analogy.

Forced vaccination is tyranny. How can anyone fail to grasp that? If they can desecrate your body against your will, do you honestly think the tyranny will stop there? Freedom is crap, is it? So wars were fought in the name of crap?

Oy vey!
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Old 20th May 2019, 09:21 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
We can designate a nice island for those who do not wish to be vaccinated. Don't want the shot? You don't get to live with the rest of us.

Problem solved. You are no longer being forced to be vaccinated.
For those who wish to live in a tyrannical system, may I recommend China?
You might love their 'social credit' system that governs citizen's behaviour.
But you don't have to move there. Similar systems will creep into every country over the next couple of decades. And you will be persuaded to love it, just as the Chinese have been persuaded to love it.
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Old 20th May 2019, 09:36 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
In the majority of cases it's actually the choice of their parents, not them. Children are not their parents' property, they have rights of their own, including the right to be protected from potentially life threatening diseases no matter how stupid and ignorant their parents are. You are proposing that such children should be denied that right.
I don't like the word 'property' but let's go with it for lack of something better. I say children ARE the 'property' of their parents much the same as a pet is the property of the owner. The child (or pet) can't take care of itself. Somebody has to 'own' it. Who else but the parents? The state? Woman gives birth and the child is automatically a ward of the state? That's actually where we're heading and if you're OK with that, then you have nothing to worry about.

That's why Big Pharma promotes the idea that not vaccinating your child is 'child abuse'. And people fall for it. [ed: The reason people don't vaccinate is because they believe they're protecting their child. Most of them have had a child that's been vaccine damaged and don't want a repeat. They read the ingredients and list of possible adverse reactions and don't want to subject their child to that risk. They've done the research and learned that vaccines are not quite as safe and effective as Pharma would have us believe. (See Plotkin) And that is being portrayed as 'child abuse'. It's a disgusting tactic.]

But why not? We now live in a world where some people seriously want you to ask your newborn [ed: for 'permission'] to change their diaper. Censors are really clamping down on free speech and people cheer for that. In some countries it's illegal to refer to someone by a pronoun they don't like.

The noose of tyranny is tightening worldwide as we speak and still the vast majority is oblivious to the fact.
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Old 20th May 2019, 10:32 PM   #146
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There are parents who beat their children, sexually abuse them, chain them up in the cellar. Should 'the State' (i.e. the laws enacted by democratically elected governments) let them do that too?
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Old 20th May 2019, 10:45 PM   #147
Giordano
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
If you're in America, what precautions are you taking now? You do realize roughly half the U.S. population haven't had their boosters and have no measles immunity at this time? Have you seen any outbreaks of measles in newborns lately?

If people want to have blind faith that what they're being injected with will never harm them - fine. That is a risk they chose and in most cases, no harm done. But mistakes happen. Bad batches get out to the public. Hey, hundreds or thousands who were given the vaccine against their will could die, but who cares? It's worth it, right?

You know the expression, "Your freedom to swing your fists ends just where my nose begins." Running a stop sign is swinging your fist. Not vaccinating is not swinging a fist. Not vaccinating doesn't place anyone at the same risk as running a stop sign. So I don't accept the analogy.

Forced vaccination is tyranny. How can anyone fail to grasp that? If they can desecrate your body against your will, do you honestly think the tyranny will stop there? Freedom is crap, is it? So wars were fought in the name of crap?

Oy vey!
You should avoid getting your information and statistics from anti-vax sites. They deliberately distort the truth and statistics, or simply lie to manipulate others. They are the ones lying to you.

First: the current measles outbreaks are tightly associated with people who have never been vaccinated, not those who haven't the very most current boosters now recommended, probably because measles titers are among those that are surprisingly persistent. Studies have shown that anti-measles vaccines remain protective at least up to 33 years after the last booster. I don't need to take precautions against them. I didn't need to take precautions against the population in general until the anti-vax crazies convinced enough people to not vaccinate and a disease that virtually disappeared in the USA resurrected itself. And now I need to take precautions against those who share your beliefs. Precautions that that you still cannot name because there really aren't practical ones for me.

Again: the extraordinarily tiny risks of the vaccine are overwhelmed by the much greater protection against the much greater risks of the disease. Choosing to vaccinate based on that simple calculation of one's personal risk is just being smart. Putting one's self at risk to indulge in some libertarian theoretical definition of ultimate "Freedom" is not. One's chance of injury from the vaccine is extremely tiny; one's use of one's bathroom is much more risky. Do you avoid showering? Do you avoid driving?- oh, now that is an enormous risk that dwarfs these others by many orders of magnitude. Is it just that you will not want to do anything that you are being required to do even if it makes sense and is the theoretical correct thing? I sometimes have this visceral emotional reaction myself but then I try to calm down and do what is the right thing even if I am being "forced" into it.

For the reasons I explained up thread not being vaccinated is precisely swinging your fist into my nose. I know you don't accept the analogy because you don't accept the actual facts, only the manipulations sold to you by the anti-vaxxers. Who has truly placed blind faith in those not deserving it? Please: the ant-vaxxers are exploiting you. Not the MDs and researchers. You got the wrong end of the stick.

Freedom is not crap: it is the ridiculous, often trivial applications of that word by many libertarians that are crap and an insult to the people who did die in wars to protect our real freedoms. A needle prick to protect yourself and all around you is Tyranny? That is enseless hyperbole! Try looking up examples of real tranny. I'll note again: agreeing to participate as member of a society means reciprocal moral and legal obligations that limit some of one's "Freedoms" (as libertarians like to define them). Okay, one has the Freedom to avoid the obligations of a just society and live in a cave or on an otherwise uninhabited island. Okay by me!

I am avoiding the even more direct and convincing arguments against the "right" of parents to put their children at risk because I have nothing to add to the pro-vax arguments.

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Old 20th May 2019, 10:50 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
There are parents who beat their children, sexually abuse them, chain them up in the cellar. Should 'the State' (i.e. the laws enacted by democratically elected governments) let them do that too?
Of course not.

But refusing to inject disease and toxins into your child is hardly the equivalent of beating, chaining or sexually abusing them.
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Old 20th May 2019, 11:03 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
You should avoid getting your information and statistics from anti-vax sites. They deliberately distort the truth and statistics, or simply lie to manipulate others. They are the ones lying to you.

First: the current measles outbreaks are tightly associated with people who have never been vaccinated, not those who haven't the very most current boosters now recommended, probably because measles titers are among those that are surprisingly persistent. Studies have shown that anti-measles vaccines remain protective at least up to 33 years after the last booster. I don't need to take precautions against them. I didn't need to take precautions against the population in general until the anti-vax crazies convinced enough people to not vaccinate and a disease that virtually disappeared in the USA resurrected itself. And now I need to take precautions against those who share your beliefs. Precautions that that you still cannot name because there really aren't practical ones for me.

Again: the extraordinarily tiny risks of the vaccine are overwhelmed by the much greater protection against the much greater risks of the disease. Choosing to vaccinate based on that simple calculation of one's personal risk is just being smart. Putting one's self at risk to indulge in some libertarian theoretical definition of ultimate "Freedom" is not. Your chance of injury from the vaccine is extremely tiny; your use of your bathroom is much more risky. Do you avoid showering? Do you avoid driving?- oh, now that is an enormous risk that dwarfs these others by many orders of magnitude. Is it just that you will not do anything that you are being required to do even if it makes sense and is the theoretical correct thing? I sometimes have this visceral emotional reaction myself but then I try to calm down and do what is the right thing even if I am being "forced" into it.

For the reasons I explained up thread not being vaccinated is precisely swinging your fist into my nose. I know you don't accept the analogy because you don't accept the actual facts, only the manipulations sold to you by the anti-vaxxers. Who has turly placed blind faith in those not deserving it? Please: the ant-vaxxers are exploiting you. Not the MDs and researchers. You got the wrong end of the stick.

Freedom is not crap: it is the ridiculous, often trivial applications of that word by many libertarians that are crap and an insult to the people who did die in wars to protect our real freedoms. A needle prick to protect yourself and all around you is Tyranny? Senseless hyperbole! Try looking up examples of real tranny. I'll note again: agreeing to participate as member of a society means reciprocal moral and legal obligations that limit some of one's "Freedoms" (as libertarians like to define them). Okay, one has the Freedom to avoid the obligations of a just society and live in a cave or on an otherwise uninhabited island. Okay by me!

No need to repeat yourself. I understand completely how you feel. Yes, injecting disease and toxins that are known to cause death, no matter how rarely, into people against their will is tyranny. It's not 'just a needle prick'. Tyranny doesn't all happen at once. It's a process and it requires some measure of cooperation by the tyrannized. Getting the public to cheer for forced medical procedures is just a step toward further tyranny.

You haven't addressed the scenario where a deadly batch mistakenly gets out and hundreds of people who were forced to take the vaccine against their will die. If you think that can't happen...good luck!

I'd like to hear anyone's comments on the Plotkin video I linked to in post #137.
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Old 20th May 2019, 11:13 PM   #150
Giordano
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
If you're in America, what precautions are you taking now? You do realize roughly half the U.S. population haven't had their boosters and have no measles immunity at this time? Have you seen any outbreaks of measles in newborns lately?

If people want to have blind faith that what they're being injected with will never harm them - fine. That is a risk they chose and in most cases, no harm done. But mistakes happen. Bad batches get out to the public. Hey, hundreds or thousands who were given the vaccine against their will could die, but who cares? It's worth it, right?

You know the expression, "Your freedom to swing your fists ends just where my nose begins." Running a stop sign is swinging your fist. Not vaccinating is not swinging a fist. Not vaccinating doesn't place anyone at the same risk as running a stop sign. So I don't accept the analogy.

Forced vaccination is tyranny. How can anyone fail to grasp that? If they can desecrate your body against your will, do you honestly think the tyranny will stop there? Freedom is crap, is it? So wars were fought in the name of crap?

Oy vey!
You should avoid getting your information and statistics from anti-vax sites. They deliberately distort the truth and statistics, or simply lie to manipulate others. They are the ones lying to you.

First: the current measles outbreaks are tightly associated with people who have never been vaccinated, not those who haven't the very most current boosters now recommended, probably because measles titers are among those that are surprisingly persistent. Studies have shown that anti-measles vaccines remain protective at least up to 33 years after the last booster. I don't need to take precautions against them. I didn't need to take precautions against the population in general until the anti-vax crazies convinced enough people to not vaccinate and a disease that virtually disappeared in the USA resurrected itself. And now I need to take precautions against those who share your beliefs. Precautions that that you still cannot name because there really aren't practical ones.

Again: the extraordinarily tiny risks of the vaccine are overwhelmed by the much greater protection against the much greater risks of the disease. Choosing to vaccinate based on that simple calculation of one's personal risk is just being smart. Putting one's self at risk to indulge in some libertarian theoretical definition of ultimate "Freedom" is not. Your chance of injury from the vaccine is extremely tiny; your use of your bathroom is much more risky. Do you avoid showering? Do you avoid driving?- oh, now that is an enormous risk that dwarfs these others by many orders of magnitude. Is it just that you will not do anything that you are being required to do even if it makes sense and is the theoretical correct thing? I sometimes have this visceral emotional reaction myself but then I try to calm down and do what is the right thing even if I am being "forced" into it.

For the reasons I explained up thread not being vaccinated is precisely swinging your fist into my nose. I know you don't accept the analogy because you don't accept the actual facts, only the manipulations sold to you by the anti-vaxxers. Please: they are exploiting you. Not the MDs and researchers. You got the wrong end of the stick.

Freedom is not crap: it is the ridiculous, often trivial applications of that word by many libertarians that are crap and an insult to the people who did die in wars to protect our real freedoms. A needle prick to protect yourself and all around you is Tyranny? Senseless hyperbole! Try looking up examples of real tranny. I'll note again: agreeing to participate as member of a society means reciprocal moral and legal obligations that limit some of one's "Freedoms" (as libertarians like to define them). Okay, one has the Freedom to avoid the obligations of a just society and live in a cave or on an otherwise uninhabited island. Okay by me!
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Old 20th May 2019, 11:26 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
You should avoid getting your information and statistics from anti-vax sites. They deliberately distort the truth and statistics, or simply lie to manipulate others. They are the ones lying to you.
I got a lot of information from watching all 9 hours of Plotkin's deposition under oath. What better source than the world's leading vaccine expert?

ed: We know that Pharma has an obvious incentive to distort data in a way favourable to them.

What incentive do ex-vaxxers have except to protect their children? Sure, there might be a few trying to sell books or whatever, but the vast majority of ex-vaxxers or anti-vaxxers are not. So what do they have to gain by 'distorting the truth'?
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Old 21st May 2019, 12:09 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Of course not.

But refusing to inject disease and toxins into your child provide them with the best possible defence against disease is hardly the equivalent of beating, chaining or sexually abusing them.
It is if it results in their death, which it potentially could.
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Old 21st May 2019, 12:22 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
It is if it results in their death, which it potentially could.
What's your take on the Plotkin video?
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Old 21st May 2019, 02:22 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
There is no test to determine if you're at risk of blindness or death if you get measles either. So every shot you don't get is also playing Russian Roulette.
Exactly. And the disease has more bullets in its chambers than the vaccine. That is why it is better to play with the vaccine.

Even better is to use the vaccine to eradicate measles, and coming generations do not need to play at all.
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Old 21st May 2019, 07:00 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
It doesn't matter how low the risk of death from a vaccine is. Forcing vaccines on everyone will cause some death. What's your threshold? How many deaths are 'worth it'? Madelaine Albright, answering a question about the Iraq war, said the death of 50,000 Iraqi children was 'worth it'.
That's an example of the kind of monsters that are in charge of things.

Your DMV example doesn't wash. Nobody forces you to get a driver's licence if you don't drive.
Pixel42 gave my answer: one less than the disease would kill without vaccination.

You can't get a hard answer, and your request for one again shows how little knowledge you have. The risk for each disease and each vaccine is different.

The current vaccines are all tested and verified to have a risk MUCH less than the disease. Even chances of serious adverse reactions on the order of 1 in 10,000 is usually enough to make sure a vaccine doesn't get approved.

And in the U.S., you aren't forced to be vaccinated unless you attend public school (or military or similar), so how is that example not applicable? And that's all set by states, there are NO federal laws mandating vaccination. If you want to be unvaccinated, that's still your choice...you just aren't allowed to risk other people's children for your own bad choices.
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Old 21st May 2019, 08:00 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Here's 8 minutes of vaccine science from Dr. Stanley Plotkin - considered the 'godfather' of vaccines. For those who say science has proven vaccines don't cause autism. There is insufficient data to say whether vaccines do or do not cause autism. The science is not settled.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xj_jozfvjuU
This is a great example of why you should not trust what pro-diseasers tell you.

Quote:
What do anti-vaccine folks think he said?

“I would say it is logically true that you cannot say, you cannot point to proof that it doesn’t cause autism. ”

Stanley Plotkin, M.D.
No, he isn’t saying that vaccines are associated with autism.

“I could not say that as a, as a scientist or a logician. But I can say as a physician that, no, they do not cause autism, because as a physician, I have to take the whole body of scientific information into consideration when I make a recommendation for a child.”

Stanley Plotkin, M.D.
All he is saying is that you can’t definitively prove a negative.
https://vaxopedia.org/2019/02/03/abo...lotkin-videos/

Itchy Boy: these people are lying to you, for profit. Don't just passively accept what they say: check it yourself. You will find, as I have, that every single claim they make is in some way incorrect.
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Old 21st May 2019, 08:06 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
No need to repeat yourself. I understand completely how you feel. Yes, injecting disease and toxins that are known to cause death, no matter how rarely, into people against their will is tyranny. It's not 'just a needle prick'. Tyranny doesn't all happen at once. It's a process and it requires some measure of cooperation by the tyrannized. Getting the public to cheer for forced medical procedures is just a step toward further tyranny.

You haven't addressed the scenario where a deadly batch mistakenly gets out and hundreds of people who were forced to take the vaccine against their will die. If you think that can't happen...good luck!

I'd like to hear anyone's comments on the Plotkin video I linked to in post #137.
Can you elaborate on the highlighted? Exactly which diseases and toxins do you think vaccines contain?

As for this claim of tyranny and 'forced medical procedures', this is, as has been said, ridiculous hyperbole.
Exactly what right do you think is being violated here, and what do you envisage is the next step towards 'further tyranny'?

As for your hypothetical scenario, what would cause this batch of vaccines to be so deadly, and can you give any examples of this happening in the past?
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Old 21st May 2019, 08:19 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
Even better is to use the vaccine to eradicate measles, and coming generations do not need to play at all.

Actually, the measles vaccine seems to have benefits beyond protecting you from measles. It sounds weird, but I find it extremely interesting:

Quote:
The most important qualifier in the results discussed above is this: “The risk associated with not receiving MV did not change when we censored for measles deaths.” In other words, even though the measles vaccine protects against measles, it protects against more than just the measles. Those who didn’t die of the measles were still protected by the measles vaccine from other causes of death
The benefits of the measles vaccine go beyond just protecting against measles, 2019 edition (Science-Based Medicin, Feb. 11, 2019)
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Old 21st May 2019, 08:32 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
If you're in America, what precautions are you taking now? You do realize roughly half the U.S. population haven't had their boosters and have no measles immunity at this time? Have you seen any outbreaks of measles in newborns lately?
WTF?

It's impossible to have this discussion with people that just make **** up.
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Old 21st May 2019, 08:47 AM   #160
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This is reminding me of the people who called for the Large Hadron Collider to be shut down, because any chance of creating a black hole and destroying the Earth, no matter how minuscule (in that case, imaginary), was too much to allow.
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