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Old 21st May 2019, 05:14 PM   #201
Itchy Boy
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Originally Posted by fishbob View Post
The forum is now dumber, thanks to you.

I had chicken pox as a child. Missed two weeks of school.
So did both of my sisters. And they missed two weeks of school.
My mother stayed home with sick kids for almost three weeks.
I had measles as a child. Another two weeks, and again for both my sisters.
Another 3 weeks of home-bound child care for my mom.

And I had mumps, as did my sisters. Another 3 weeks of confinement with sick kids.

9 weeks of lost time for her, risk of life-long complications for her children x 9.
Also, I have had an attack of shingles since. I don't wish that on anybody - except anti-vaxxers who seem to need a bit of real world experience. I truly hope each and every one of these nitwits gets to enjoy an episode of shingles.
If you don't understand vaccines are full of disease and toxins, you must think they're just full of fairy dust. The disease is a form of the virus the vaccine is supposed to protect against and some of the toxins are adjuvants needed to supercharge the body's immune response because the (weakened or killed) virus alone doesn't provoke a strong enough response.

I'm sorry for your experience, but you're one person. My experience was much milder than yours and so was the experience of everyone I knew.

There's a video on YT showing children in school on the day they're having their class pictures taken and they all have chicken pox. See...no biggie. It was just another day at school.

And please remember that those you call 'anti-vaxxers' have no objection to you getting whatever vaccines you want. And your display of human compassion, wishing shingles on people who've done nothing to you is certainly admirable.
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Old 21st May 2019, 05:17 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by fishbob View Post
The numbers don't change due to your choices. The lowest risk remains the lowest risk.
I repeat. I want the choice to be mine, not someone else's. Regardless of what the numbers are.
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Old 21st May 2019, 05:26 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


You are incredibly poorly informed about measles vaccine. Your facts are false, period, full stop.

And you've yet to post a link to the testimony you seem so enamored with. Got a link? Preferably one with a transcript since I'm not going to listen to nine hours of Congressional testimony.

And while you're at it you might want to read up on how epidemiological studies tell us what you mistakenly think has not been done.
I said I would try to dig up the stats on herd immunity. I have more to do than to cater exclusively to you. Eventually, if I can't find a citation, I'll retract the statement. In fact, I'll retract it right now, until I find a citation. OK?

As stated, I'm notating Plotkin's deposition so I can point people directly to the proper spot to back my claim. It will take a while.

And according to Plotkin, as you can hear yourself if you bother to watch the 8 minutes, he confirms no such study has been done and give the lamest excuse as to why that is so.

If you know of a double blind study comparing the vaccinated to the unvaccinated, by all means, link me to it. And send the link to Plotkin too as I'm sure he'd be very grateful for you correcting him.
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Old 21st May 2019, 05:37 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Because some people in this thread need a review of how we study vaccine safety and effectiveness in addition to clinical trials:

Vaccine epidemiology: A review
From your link:

"Double-blind, randomized, placebo-control trials: The ideal vaccine efficacy study is a clinical trial starting with persons susceptible to disease. However, such studies are not possible after the vaccine is licensed, as it becomes unethical to use placebo when the vaccine is of proven benefit."

There's nothing unethical about giving a placebo to healthy person who has signed up to participate in the study and is aware they might be in the placebo group.

This is the same lame, vacuous excuse Plotkin gave. How is it unethical to give placebo to someone who's given their informed consent? Can you explain that any better than Giordano's attempt?

ed: And yet folks think it's ethical to have a substance injected into you against your will. Earth is now like 'Bizzaro World' in the old Superman comics, where everything is backwards.
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Old 21st May 2019, 05:50 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I agree with Giordano’s post regarding this.

But let’s just consider the real world experience:

Measles pre vaccine = Annual Estimates: 3-4 million infections, and in 500000 reported cases, 48000 hospitalizations, 1000 cases of encephalitis and 400-500 deaths.

Post Vaccine = reported cases since 2000 from a low of 37 people to a high of 667 people in 2014 the last death occurred in 2015.

Death due to Vaccine: Between 1997 and 2015 there were 2149 deaths reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS). This is for all vaccines given over that time -tens or hundreds of millions of doses -not just MMR. The study authors note that the causes of death in those cases were “consistent with the most common causes of death in the US population.” IOW, the death in the vast majority of those cases were coincidental to the vaccine and not caused by the vaccine.

But even if every one of those deaths were directly caused by a vaccine (which to be clear, they weren’t) that amounts to 119 deaths a year on average.

Now compare that to the potential number of deaths due to all those vaccine-preventable diseases -measles, mumps, polio, diphtheria, whooping cough... It just isn’t even close to comparable.

We no longer live in a world where people have to worry about even the minor annoyance of the average measles case to say nothing of the debilitating toll those other diseases took on humanity. Again I ask, why would you want to go back to that? Because Marcia Brady had measles and she was fine? Really?

Like I said, I don’t understand that argument at all.
I'm against the drive to make vaccines mandatory. The only reason I sometimes reference any statistics is just to show vaccines are not 100% safe or 100% effective and that alone is enough reason to not mandate them. But even if it was 100%, a forced injections is about the grossest violation of a person's bodily integrity there is. if you're OK with not owning your own body and deciding for yourself what does or does not go into it, so be it.

Aldous Huxley was right so many years ago. Ways would be found to make people love their servitude. That's where we are today.

Leaving people to make their own choice about whether to take any vaccine is not going to put us back in the dark ages.

No one has mentioned about shedding. The vaccinated who shed are as much a danger to people like Giordano as the unvaccinated. Is that not so?
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Old 21st May 2019, 06:26 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
From your link:

"Double-blind, randomized, placebo-control trials: The ideal vaccine efficacy study is a clinical trial starting with persons susceptible to disease. However, such studies are not possible after the vaccine is licensed, as it becomes unethical to use placebo when the vaccine is of proven benefit."

There's nothing unethical about giving a placebo to healthy person who has signed up to participate in the study and is aware they might be in the placebo group.

This is the same lame, vacuous excuse Plotkin gave. How is it unethical to give placebo to someone who's given their informed consent? Can you explain that any better than Giordano's attempt?

ed: And yet folks think it's ethical to have a substance injected into you against your will. Earth is now like 'Bizzaro World' in the old Superman comics, where everything is backwards.
So you didn't understand this part:
Quote:
However, such studies are not possible after the vaccine is licensed, as it becomes unethical to use placebo when the vaccine is of proven benefit
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Old 21st May 2019, 06:37 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So you didn't understand this part:
Correct. I didn't understand that part. The statement doesn't make any logical sense whatsoever.

You've got a healthy person who signed up for the trial and are aware they may get the placebo instead of the vaccine. How is that unethical when they've given informed consent? Please explain in your own words.
Thanks.
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Old 21st May 2019, 08:46 PM   #208
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The Hypochratic Oath says "First do no harm".
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Old 21st May 2019, 09:17 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
The Hypochratic Oath says "First do no harm".
You have no real answer because there isn't one. It's not your fault. The statement is nonsense.
You've now seen an example of blatant misinformation from your 'trusted sources'.

"Do no harm" indeed. So it's unethical to give the placebo group an injection which has zero chance of harming them, but it's totally ethical to give the vaccine group an injection with a greater than zero chance of harm?

That might be true on planet Bizzaro, but here on Earth, it's the other way 'round, if anything. But as long as everyone has given their informed consent there is no ethical issue involved.

Apparently the 'experts' at your link haven't been able to figure that fact out yet, or they're feeding you a line. Which do you think is most likely?
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Old 21st May 2019, 09:25 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
You have no real answer because there isn't one. It's not your fault. The statement is nonsense.
You've now seen an example of blatant misinformation from your 'trusted sources'.

"Do no harm" indeed. So it's unethical to give the placebo group an injection which has zero chance of harming them, but it's totally ethical to give the vaccine group an injection with a greater than zero chance of harm?
This is untrue. Blatantly untrue. Overwhelmingly untrue.
We know Vaccines work. It is observed. By setting up two groups, blind, one with the vaccine, one without, the odds are rather good that the control group will become rather sick. perhaps die.

For the blind test to work, each group would also have to be exposed to the disease in question.

Quote:
That might be true on planet Bizzaro, but here on Earth, it's the other way 'round, if anything. But as long as everyone has given their informed consent there is no ethical issue involved.

Apparently the 'experts' at your link haven't been able to figure that fact out yet, or they're feeding you a line. Which do you think is most likely?
Shall we sign you up for the polio vaccine blind test? We have iron lungs on standby for you.

Which is the reason why no one really wants to perform the blind test. the risks are far too high.
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Old 21st May 2019, 09:52 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
This is untrue. Blatantly untrue. Overwhelmingly untrue.
We know Vaccines work. It is observed. By setting up two groups, blind, one with the vaccine, one without, the odds are rather good that the control group will become rather sick. perhaps die.

For the blind test to work, each group would also have to be exposed to the disease in question.



Shall we sign you up for the polio vaccine blind test? We have iron lungs on standby for you.

Which is the reason why no one really wants to perform the blind test. the risks are far too high.
I grant your point. But we're still talking informed consent.

Nobody is going to sign up for a Black Plague trial, but how about other diseases that are relatively benign? Measles, for example, despite the current hysteria has a low death rate. Especially if people have enough vitamin A. Or chicken pox.

Or take the relatively benign disease of your choice. Apparently there are hundreds of new vaccines in the pipeline.

And aside from that, we still don't have a proper study comparing health outcomes of the vaccinated to the unvaccinated because that would be 'difficult'. So, let's just hope and pray that the rise in cancer, autism, diabetes, etc etc that coincide with the rise in the vaccine schedule is just coincidence.

Correlation is not causation, but such a study could definitively rule out vaccines as a cause. Yes, it could prove a negative. That vaccines do not cause a rise in all those horrible conditions.

It's the most basic and important study that could be done in relation to vaccines but it hasn't been done, and it won't be done because they already know the results would not favour the vaccinated.
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Old 21st May 2019, 10:14 PM   #212
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No doctor who takes their Hypochratic Oath seriously is going to withhold vaccines, for whose efficacy there is already overwhelming evidence, just to cross the last t and dot the last i of that evidence.
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Old 21st May 2019, 10:19 PM   #213
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Here's a more succinct reply.

Even if it was a trial for the 'Black Death' vaccine, as long as there is fully informed consent, where's the ethical dilemma?

And BTW, you make a good point, but what I originally said was the placebo INJECTION had zero chance of causing harm. Not that the experiment as a whole had a zero chance of harm.
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Old 21st May 2019, 10:29 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
No doctor who takes their Hypochratic Oath seriously is going to withhold vaccines, for whose efficacy there is already overwhelming evidence, just to cross the last t and dot the last i of that evidence.
Not giving a vaccine to someone who doesn't want it is not doing harm. Other things have to happen before any 'harm' is done. The unvaccinated has to contract the disease and spread it. That doesn't always happen.
On the other hand, giving a vaccine to someone who wants it, may directly result in harm if they are susceptible to vaccine damage, as some people are.

ed: Bad analogy deleted. I'm not good at coming up with them and you could rightly have roasted me for it.
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Old 21st May 2019, 11:14 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


You are incredibly poorly informed about measles vaccine. Your facts are false, period, full stop.

And you've yet to post a link to the testimony you seem so enamored with. Got a link? Preferably one with a transcript since I'm not going to listen to nine hours of Congressional testimony.

And while you're at it you might want to read up on how epidemiological studies tell us what you mistakenly think has not been done.
This isn't an answer to the comment I withdrew, but it relates to it. I'll try to find something better and specific to measles. Meantime, I think this shows that herd immunity doesn't exist for DTap. It's not common for people over 30 to get boosters here in North America.

Plotkin - Hour 3 @ 57:30 talks about the DTap vaccine. It lasts for about 5 years, but efficacy diminishes by 2 years. After 5 years, only 30% to 50% are still protected. Adults may get asymptomatic pertussis and get natural immunity from that.

If a mother had pertussis and therefore natural immunity, the immunity is passed to her baby.
Acellular vaccines do not protect you from being a carrier even if you show no symptoms.
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Old 21st May 2019, 11:17 PM   #216
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Doctors' ethical choices often conflict with their patients', from refusing to precribe crackpot remedies to refusing to euthanise. You cannot force a doctor to (in their view) violate their Hypochratic Oath just because they have a patient whose choices are (again, in their view) less well informed.

So if you want to conduct a double blind trial of vaccines you need to find not only volunteers but doctors who consider such a trial to be ethically responsible. Good luck with that.
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Old 21st May 2019, 11:21 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
For the next while, I'd like to centre the discussion on the things you can all hear Plotkin say with his own mouth. I invite all to watch the 8 minute video and comment on what Plotkin says.
Smart people don't rely on a single source for all their talking points and arguments.
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Old 21st May 2019, 11:48 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Doctors' ethical choices often conflict with their patients', from refusing to precribe crackpot remedies to refusing to euthanise. You cannot force a doctor to (in their view) violate their Hypochratic Oath just because they have a patient whose choices are (again, in their view) less well informed.

So if you want to conduct a double blind trial of vaccines you need to find not only volunteers but doctors who consider such a trial to be ethically responsible. Good luck with that.
'Informed consent' in the case of a study means:

- the participant is aware they may be in either group and not know which one

- the participant is told that if they're in the placebo group they might catch the disease and what all the possible consequences might be and how likely each one is

- the participant is told that if they're in the vaccine group, what all the possible consequences might be and their respective likelihood.

Now they're getting all this information from the study authors, not some quack. So they're as fully and accurately informed as it's possible to be. If they consent to those conditions, where's the ethical breach?
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Old 21st May 2019, 11:50 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
'Informed consent' in the case of a study means:

- the participant is aware they may be in either group and not know which one

- the participant is told that if they're in the placebo group they might catch the disease and what all the possible consequences might be and how likely each one is

- the participant is told that if they're in the vaccine group, what all the possible consequences might be and their respective likelihood.

Now they're getting all this information from the study authors, not some quack. So they're as fully and accurately informed as it's possible to be. If they consent to those conditions, where's the ethical breach?
The part where the disease they catch might kill them or leave them permanently crippled, and the people performing the study aren't allowed to do anything about it because that would ruin the results of the study.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 12:09 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Smart people don't rely on a single source for all their talking points and arguments.
The important thing is whether what he says is true or not. If he doesn't know the answer to a question or isn't sure, he's allowed to say so.

Therefore, whatever information he divulges (under oath) can be assumed to be true to the best of his knowledge. He's the guy all other vaccinologists look up to.

So, if I cite something he says, it's up to anyone to challenge the claim with the source(s) of their choosing.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 12:09 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
'Informed consent' in the case of a study means:

- the participant is aware they may be in either group and not know which one

- the participant is told that if they're in the placebo group they might catch the disease and what all the possible consequences might be and how likely each one is

- the participant is told that if they're in the vaccine group, what all the possible consequences might be and their respective likelihood.

Now they're getting all this information from the study authors, not some quack. So they're as fully and accurately informed as it's possible to be. If they consent to those conditions, where's the ethical breach?
It was pointed out upthread that in modern double blind trials of new treatments the control group gets not a placebo but the best currently available treatment. Do you understand why? If so then you should be able to answer this question yourself.

But, as I said, if you can find doctors who don't think that the study you propose would violate their Hippocratic Oath then go for it.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 12:16 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The part where the disease they catch might kill them or leave them permanently crippled, and the people performing the study aren't allowed to do anything about it because that would ruin the results of the study.
Not quite. If they die or are permanently crippled by either the disease or the vaccine, that would BE the result of the study.

The question was about ethics. If they're made fully aware of the risks and they agree, there's no ethical violation.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 12:18 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Not quite. If they die or are permanently crippled by either the disease or the vaccine, that would BE the result of the study.

The question was about ethics. If they're made fully aware of the risks and they agree, there's no ethical violation.
If this is what you believe about ethics - that it is ethical to do whatever you want to someone up to and including killing them provided that they consent to it - then you need a course in remedial ethics.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 12:22 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
It was pointed out upthread that in modern double blind trials of new treatments the control group gets not a placebo but the best currently available treatment. Do you understand why? If so then you should be able to answer this question yourself.

But, as I said, if you can find doctors who don't think that the study you propose would violate their Hippocratic Oath then go for it.
Vaccines are not 'treatments'. The treatments you refer to are drugs for a disease or condition the subject already has. Nobody who has a disease is going to want to risk being in the sugar pill group when a drug is already available. So you're not going to get volunteers. Even so, if they agreed to risk being in the sugar pill group, the principle still stands.
Informed Consent = no ethical violation.

Vaccines are given to healthy people before any disease is introduced.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 12:30 AM   #225
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Informed consent means no ethical violation as far as the volunteers are concerned - they are not being coerced. It doesn't mean no ethical violation as far as the participating doctors are concerned, as they will still be violating their Hippocratic Oath. That seems to be the point you are missing.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 12:33 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
If this is what you believe about ethics - that it is ethical to do whatever you want to someone up to and including killing them provided that they consent to it - then you need a course in remedial ethics.
That's a bit over the top. We're more in the realm of mild diseases with a very low chance of serious consequences.

I gather from your comment that you are opposed to consensual euthanasia?
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Old 22nd May 2019, 12:38 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Informed consent means no ethical violation as far as the volunteers are concerned - they are not being coerced. It doesn't mean no ethical violation as far as the participating doctors are concerned, as they will still be violating their Hippocratic Oath. That seems to be the point you are missing.
Then aren't they violating the oath when they expose the participants to the disease? They don't know that 100% of the vaccinated will be protected.
Isn't the study itself, regardless of how it's conducted a violation if participants are purposely exposed to a disease?

You can't have it both ways.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 01:38 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Then aren't they violating the oath when they expose the participants to the disease?
They are not "exposing them to the disease" they are vaccinating them, a procedure which it has been amply proved reduces their chances of suffering future health problems. Obviously improving a patient's chances of enjoying continued good health does not violate the Hippocratic Oath.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 02:21 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Most people can't home school so they're 'forced' to send their children to public school or face truancy charges...
Most people can’t home school because they are barely more intelligent than the 5 yr olds they think will catch autism from vaccines.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 03:23 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
'Informed consent' in the case of a study means:

- the participant is aware they may be in either group and not know which one

- the participant is told that if they're in the placebo group they might catch the disease and what all the possible consequences might be and how likely each one is

- the participant is told that if they're in the vaccine group, what all the possible consequences might be and their respective likelihood.

Now they're getting all this information from the study authors, not some quack. So they're as fully and accurately informed as it's possible to be. If they consent to those conditions, where's the ethical breach?
How are you going to find people who will consent to being injected with a vaccine that we know will protect them against a disease, but it could be placebo, so they are in fact not protected?

Anti-vaxxers would not sign up, and healthy sensible people would not take the risk. You need to find unvaccinated adults, knowing that measles is much worse for adults than children.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 04:30 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Most people are not 'anti-vax' in that they don't advocate for the banning of vaccines. They are anti-mandatory vaccine. They believe, rightly, that no one has the right to force a medical procedure on someone without their informed consent.

There is no test to determine if you're at risk of adverse side effects from any vaccine. So every shot you get is playing Russian Roulette. If you want to play, fine. But no one has the right to force others to play.

Vaccines are not 100% safe, as evidenced by the adverse effects listed on the insert. If someone is injected against their will, and they die as a result, that's tantamount to murder.

How do you feel about children bringing peanuts to school?
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Old 22nd May 2019, 04:32 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
I repeat. I want the choice to be mine, not someone else's. Regardless of what the numbers are.

Best find yourself an isolated cabin in the woods and learn subsistence farming then.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 08:25 AM   #233
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A Libertarian may argue that a person has the right to participate in any clinical trial, whatever the risk, if they provide their "informed consent." Whatever the legitimacy of this view (and I personally question it) it has long been established that the researchers and doctors running such clinical trials cannot knowingly place participants at greater risk than those not in the trial by withholding treatments known to protect or help with a disease. So in practice it is the "Freedom" of the people running the trial to do so using their moral philosophy, not the "Freedom" of a participant to use their moral philosophy.

Isn't Libertarian thought great? Everyone's "Freedom" is paramount! Except there are so many everyones it makes it somewhat complicated in a real society...
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Old 22nd May 2019, 09:41 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
If you don't understand vaccines are full of disease and toxins, you must think they're just full of fairy dust.
If you can't write a coherent argument then your write drivel like this.

Nice lack of citations and just assertive statements.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 09:43 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
I repeat. I want the choice to be mine, not someone else's. Regardless of what the numbers are.
Then you have the right to be restricted access and quarantined. And if you have minors they have the right to be denied access and quarantined as well.

My Nuncle Steve got polio in 1977 because he wasn't vaccinated as a child or adult, he recovered but it took three years.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 09:46 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Most people can't home school so they're 'forced' to send their children to public school or face truancy charges. Many states are taking away religious and philosophical exemptions. And medical exemptions are being made much more difficult to get.
Wow there must have been a sale on straw at the Canadian Tire, I hope you got some of those dollars for buying enough to make a straw city and populate it with straw citizens
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Old 22nd May 2019, 10:37 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
They are not "exposing them to the disease" they are vaccinating them, a procedure which it has been amply proved reduces their chances of suffering future health problems. Obviously improving a patient's chances of enjoying continued good health does not violate the Hippocratic Oath.
When they do a vaccine trial, people are given the vaccine then exposed to the disease to see how the vaccine works. Am I missing something?
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Old 22nd May 2019, 10:44 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
When they do a vaccine trial, people are given the vaccine then exposed to the disease to see how the vaccine works. Am I missing something?
Yes. You are.

Things like basic research in the topic you're decrying, for one.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 10:58 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
When they do a vaccine trial, people are given the vaccine then exposed to the disease to see how the vaccine works. Am I missing something?
No-one is exposed to the disease in a vaccine trial.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_trial
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Old 22nd May 2019, 11:17 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
No-one is exposed to the disease in a vaccine trial.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_trial
From your link (Phase 3 trials):
The vaccine must be shown to be safe and effective *in natural disease conditions* before being submitted for approval and then general production.

"Natural disease conditions" means exposure to the disease.

Also from Phase 1 of your link:

A vaccine trial might involve forming two groups from the target population. For example, from the set of trial subjects, each subject may be randomly assigned to receive either a new vaccine or a "control" treatment: The control treatment may be a placebo, or an adjuvant-containing cocktail, or an established vaccine (which might be intended to protect against a different pathogen).

Note the word 'placebo'.
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