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Old 22nd May 2019, 11:28 AM   #241
Pixel42
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The participants in the trial have exactly the same chance of encountering the disease as they would if they had not been vaccinated. That's what "natural disease conditions" means. They are not deliberately exposed to it. Do you understand this?
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Old 22nd May 2019, 11:40 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Yes...choosing the lowest risk option. I want that choice to be mine, not the state's.
You are the drunk driver. Yes, it is your choice to put or not put toxins in your body. It is not then your choice, to enter society and risk others. You may not mingle with US citizens if you have made the choice to risk their lives. Just as the majority of drunk drivers have never caused an accident and injured someone, so you being a potential disease carrier isn't likely to harm anyone. We do not consider your august presence an acceptable risk. Leave society if you oppose the public good.

To spell it out as clearly as possible, autism develops in the *womb*. You might notice that is long BEFORE an individual can be vaccinated. How then can vaccines cause autism? Explain that before trotting out the "famous scientist can't explain this!" clickbait.

Then, look up the word 'attenuate' and know what it means. 'Killed' is also a common word when describing vaccines. I got a live dose of polio in my oral vaccination, and that's why my leg isn't curled up like my grandmother's was. These 'minor childhood diseases' are still lethal even to children. Call chickenpox harmless to the woman who *used* to have a four-year-old niece before herpes zoster ate her brain. Vaccines have never done the damage the diseases they are created to stop do every year.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 11:49 AM   #243
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Here's a 4 minute look into the ethics of vaccine testing from Plotkin under oath.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAQG51R45D0

Plotkin says:
- he has used orphans to study an experimental vaccine,

- he can't remember if he ever used the mentally handicapped to study an experimental vaccine, but notes it was not uncommon to do so at the time (1960s).
He adds that he wouldn't deny that he may have done so. Then...

- in a study in which he participated, 13 mentally retarded children were given an experimental vaccine. (Attenuation of RA 27/3 Rubella Virus in WI-38 Human Diploid Cells )

- in a letter to Ethics journal he wrote, " The question is whether we are to have experiments performed on fully functioning adults and on children who are potentially contributors to society, or to perform initial studies on children and adults who are human in form, but not in social potential. It may be objected that this question implies a Nazi philosophy but I do not think that it is difficult to distinguish non functioning persons from members of ethnic, racial, economic or other groups."

- he has used the babies of mothers in prison to study an experimental vaccine

Ethics anyone?
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Old 22nd May 2019, 12:01 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
You are the drunk driver. Yes, it is your choice to put or not put toxins in your body. It is not then your choice, to enter society and risk others. You may not mingle with US citizens if you have made the choice to risk their lives. Just as the majority of drunk drivers have never caused an accident and injured someone, so you being a potential disease carrier isn't likely to harm anyone. We do not consider your august presence an acceptable risk. Leave society if you oppose the public good.

To spell it out as clearly as possible, autism develops in the *womb*. You might notice that is long BEFORE an individual can be vaccinated. How then can vaccines cause autism? Explain that before trotting out the "famous scientist can't explain this!" clickbait.

Then, look up the word 'attenuate' and know what it means. 'Killed' is also a common word when describing vaccines. I got a live dose of polio in my oral vaccination, and that's why my leg isn't curled up like my grandmother's was. These 'minor childhood diseases' are still lethal even to children. Call chickenpox harmless to the woman who *used* to have a four-year-old niece before herpes zoster ate her brain. Vaccines have never done the damage the diseases they are created to stop do every year.
Can you spare 4 minutes to see how chicken pox is regarded in the Netherlands vs America?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8CbgaDsoHs
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Old 22nd May 2019, 12:07 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
This isn't an answer to the comment I withdrew, but it relates to it. I'll try to find something better and specific to measles. Meantime, I think this shows that herd immunity doesn't exist for DTap. It's not common for people over 30 to get boosters here in North America.

Plotkin - Hour 3 @ 57:30 talks about the DTap vaccine. It lasts for about 5 years, but efficacy diminishes by 2 years. After 5 years, only 30% to 50% are still protected. Adults may get asymptomatic pertussis and get natural immunity from that.

If a mother had pertussis and therefore natural immunity, the immunity is passed to her baby.
Acellular vaccines do not protect you from being a carrier even if you show no symptoms.
If you're interested: Measles vaccine is a live vaccine. Two doses decrease the failure rate from ~5% to about 2%, it doesn't 'boost' the response.

Live vaccines last a lifetime and don't require boosters.

Pertussis vaccine is a killed vaccine and does require boosters.

DTap is the pediatric version and is not given to anyone over 7. That led to waning immunity for pertussis beginning in the teen years and for years we had annual outbreaks of pertussis.

In 2005, a pertussis vaccine for adults was developed called a tdap. The diphtheria and tetanus components are smaller in the adult version and the pertussis component differs from the pediatric version.

Priorities for the tdap were given to health and daycare workers, pregnant women (it's given in the third trimester), and all the relatives that will come near the newborn.

Now every adult should get their tdap every 10 years but it's true, not all adults are getting the boosters. When outbreaks of pertussis occur, vaccine campaigns are carried out.

There is a current outbreak of pertussis at Western WA U in B'ham. The students are being offered the vaccine.

Herd immunity for measles differs from herd immunity for pertussis and diphtheria. The numbers and vaccine targets are not interchangeable.

Whatever is in the video you keep talking about and not linking to so we can see what you are talking about was almost certainly earlier than 2005 and not relevant to today's pertussis vaccine.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 12:12 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Most people can’t home school because they are barely more intelligent than the 5 yr olds they think will catch autism from vaccines.
Unfortunately that doesn't stop them.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 12:15 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Here's a 4 minute look into the ethics of vaccine testing from Plotkin under oath.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAQG51R45D0

...
He's talking about in the 60s. How is this relevant to today's vaccines?

Also this is a cherry-picked excerpt. Where's the rest, what is the context?
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Old 22nd May 2019, 12:51 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
He's talking about in the 60s. How is this relevant to today's vaccines?

Also this is a cherry-picked excerpt. Where's the rest, what is the context?
We were discussing the ethical issues of vaccine testing. I was providing some background information. The rest is in the 9 hours of deposition which I'm in the process of notating. For now, the clips I link are for convenience. When the notation is done I will be able to point you to the spot in the original video.

Here's the other link you asked about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xj_jozfvjuU
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Old 22nd May 2019, 01:27 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
If you're interested: Measles vaccine is a live vaccine. Two doses decrease the failure rate from ~5% to about 2%, it doesn't 'boost' the response.

Live vaccines last a lifetime and don't require boosters.

Pertussis vaccine is a killed vaccine and does require boosters.

DTap is the pediatric version and is not given to anyone over 7. That led to waning immunity for pertussis beginning in the teen years and for years we had annual outbreaks of pertussis.

In 2005, a pertussis vaccine for adults was developed called a tdap. The diphtheria and tetanus components are smaller in the adult version and the pertussis component differs from the pediatric version.

Priorities for the tdap were given to health and daycare workers, pregnant women (it's given in the third trimester), and all the relatives that will come near the newborn.

Now every adult should get their tdap every 10 years but it's true, not all adults are getting the boosters. When outbreaks of pertussis occur, vaccine campaigns are carried out.

There is a current outbreak of pertussis at Western WA U in B'ham. The students are being offered the vaccine.

Herd immunity for measles differs from herd immunity for pertussis and diphtheria. The numbers and vaccine targets are not interchangeable.

Whatever is in the video you keep talking about and not linking to so we can see what you are talking about was almost certainly earlier than 2005 and not relevant to today's pertussis vaccine.
Here's the link you asked for dealing with pertussis.
Hour 3 of 9 @ 57:30
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdSrykwRXHc
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Old 22nd May 2019, 01:30 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
We were discussing the ethical issues of vaccine testing. I was providing some background information. The rest is in the 9 hours of deposition which I'm in the process of notating. For now, the clips I link are for convenience. When the notation is done I will be able to point you to the spot in the original video.

Here's the other link you asked about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xj_jozfvjuU
I don't need your notations, I need to know the context and a link to the original deposition, not the anti-vaxxer cherry-picked excerpts.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 01:33 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Here's the link you asked for dealing with pertussis.
Hour 3 of 9 @ 57:30
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdSrykwRXHc
What is the context? ??????????

I'm not going to listen to an hour of testimony I have no context for.

Also, you've already demonstrated that you don't understand half of what you hear/read about vaccines. I see nothing here that contradicts that.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 01:52 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
What is the context? ??????????

I'm not going to listen to an hour of testimony I have no context for.

Also, you've already demonstrated that you don't understand half of what you hear/read about vaccines. I see nothing here that contradicts that.
You wanted a link to the original deposition. It's in 9 parts. I gave you a link to Hour 3 and a time of 57:30 which is the section I was talking about in an earlier post. You can get the context directly from the video by rewinding to a bit before 57:30.

The context of the deposition is this:
A couple is going to court because the husband wants the children vaccinated but the wife does not. Plotkin agreed to be called as an expert witness in the case. So this is the wife's lawyer questioning Plotkin under oath, before the court case takes place.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 02:16 PM   #253
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Argument by YouTube, weak weak weak, a sign of not know what citations are.
And always a possible source of revenue for some dirtbag.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 02:58 PM   #254
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Itchy Boy,

As noted repeatedly up thread your obsession with Plotkin, especially with this single deposition in youtube, is a waste of your time (and ours) if one wants a accurate and comprehensive understanding of the issues involved in vaccination. Yes, Stanley Plotkin was one of several who were prominent figures in the history of vaccination in the USA from the mid to the later 19th century. But there were others who were at least as important and contributed equally or more (e.g. Maurice Hillerman) and there have been many changes since the time Plotkin was most active. His views are exactly that, his views, and the youtube video just a single discussion of these (and in response to hostile questioning). He is a very knowledgeable man who made important contributions and who has important insights, but he is not the God of vaccination and the video is not his bible. The actual safety, effectiveness, and necessity of vaccinations are not magically and exclusively defined by what Plotkin says in this video. If you want to discuss these issues intelligently and knowledgeably then you must focus instead on the far greater sources of information that lay beyond this one guy and this one video.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 03:13 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
I repeat. I want the choice to be mine, not someone else's. Regardless of what the numbers are.
This is the only part of your argument that has merit, IMO. I think there is a debate to be had whether or not vaccines should be mandatory. To be clear, they are not currently mandatory; thus, the outbreaks like the OP.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 03:14 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
...
The context of the deposition is this:
A couple is going to court because the husband wants the children vaccinated but the wife does not. Plotkin agreed to be called as an expert witness in the case. So this is the wife's lawyer questioning Plotkin under oath, before the court case takes place.
See, that wasn't so hard.

This reminds me of the climate change hearings where people didn't understand why science doesn't prove things, rather it seeks out the best explanation for the evidence.

Vaxopedia explains the testimony and the anti-vaxxer misrepresentation of it.
Quote:
What do anti-vaccine folks think he said?
“I would say it is logically true that you cannot say, you cannot point to proof that it doesn’t cause autism. ”

Stanley Plotkin, M.D.
No, he isn’t saying that vaccines are associated with autism.
“I could not say that as a, as a scientist or a logician. But I can say as a physician that, no, they do not cause autism, because as a physician, I have to take the whole body of scientific information into consideration when I make a recommendation for a child.”

Stanley Plotkin, M.D.
All he is saying is that you can’t definitively prove a negative.
You have 9 hours of similar anti-vaxxer misstatements about the man's testimony. You would do well to read that link and try to understand how you've been hoodwinked by the anti-vaxxers.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 03:26 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
This is the only part of your argument that has merit, IMO. I think there is a debate to be had whether or not vaccines should be mandatory. To be clear, they are not currently mandatory; thus, the outbreaks like the OP.
They are mandatory in some states with only valid medical exemptions. The enforcement is unvaccinated kids can't go to school or be in daycare.

State laws/vaccine exemptions allowed

Three states only allow medical exemptions.

http://www.immunize.org/laws/

https://www.cdc.gov/phlp/publication...ationlaws.html
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Old 22nd May 2019, 03:59 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
This is the only part of your argument that has merit, IMO. I think there is a debate to be had whether or not vaccines should be mandatory. To be clear, they are not currently mandatory; thus, the outbreaks like the OP.
I will concede that there is an argument to be made about individual rights vs. the interests of society as a whole, and in general, I don't favor mandatory medical treatment. However there a few reasons that i think vaccination merits different treatment.

Children:

Children, especially very young children, do not have the capacity to make such decisions for themselves. I do not believe that parents have an absolute right to make decisions that endanger the welfare of their children. This is a well established legal principle, Parents do not have a right to physically discipline their children (the typical justification for abuse), or transport them in automobiles without proper restraint. Neither, IMO, do they have a right to deny them basic protection against dangerous diseases, such as measles or polio, especially when the risks involved in that protection are minimal. Vaccines are among the safest medical treatments known. The risks are so minimal, and the benefits so great, that there simply is no rational argument for refusing to do it, antivax lies and propaganda notwithstanding.

Protection of others/ herd immunity.

Were the only person at risk from failure to vaccinate an adult who wished not to get a vaccination, I would say fine, you're making a really stupid decision, but it's your life. If you want to make this foolish decision, go ahead. The trouble is that diseases prevented by vaccination are contagious. Herd immunity and eradication of diseases, offer the best protection, and can only be achieved with a very high participation rate. If a disease can actually be eradicated, then vaccination will no longer be necessary. Failing to vaccinate is a lot like drunk driving: You are not just endangering yourself. As with children, the benefits are so great, and the risks so low, that there really isn't a rational argument for not vaccinating.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 04:55 PM   #259
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Itchy Boy, when you get into a car, do you fasten your seatbelt? Or do you exercise your "right to choose" not to?
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Old 22nd May 2019, 04:57 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
They are mandatory in some states with only valid medical exemptions. The enforcement is unvaccinated kids can't go to school or be in daycare.



State laws/vaccine exemptions allowed



Three states only allow medical exemptions.



http://www.immunize.org/laws/



https://www.cdc.gov/phlp/publication...ationlaws.html


Right. But it’s not as if police are arresting people and strapping them down to be immunized. No one is forcing anyone to get poked, IOW. I would call the current situation “strong encouragement,” to get the shots -no school, no college, no hospital work, etc. You don’t need a “Vax Card” to be admitted to public venues.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 05:11 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Right. But it’s not as if police are arresting people and strapping them down to be immunized. No one is forcing anyone to get poked, IOW. I would call the current situation “strong encouragement,” to get the shots -no school, no college, no hospital work, etc. You don’t need a “Vax Card” to be admitted to public venues.
If pedantry is what you meant, you should have said so but I'm not surprised this is your answer.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 07:24 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
...

Here's the other link you asked about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xj_jozfvjuU

There is no reason to watch a video of an elderly man being badgered by lawyers with an agenda. Also, you seem to have missed that they have not so far been successful: https://gucciardofamilylaw.com/what-...-vaccinations/


Which says (emphasis added):
Quote:
During this ongoing legal battle, Matheson has claimed a preference to avoid vaccinations because she believes they could trigger underlying autoimmune disorders in the family’s medical history. She also opposes vaccinations on religious grounds due to reports that they are created using aborted fetal cells. Thus far, she has not been successful in obtaining a favorable ruling.
...
When a judge rules on child vaccinations, as Oakland County Circuit Judge Kathleen McDonald will in the Matheson case, and already has in the Bredow case, there is very little recourse for the parent that doesn’t get a favorable outcome. Appeals are possible, but they may constitute little more than a waste of time and money.

Stop harping about that video, instead dazzle us with some actual data. Something like a peer reviewed study by reputable qualified researchers. Prove to us that measles is much safer than two doses of the modern American MMR vaccine (newsflash: there are different MMR vaccines around the globe, it has to do with the vaccine strains).


Now about those "aborted fetal cells"... Plotkin also used those to create one of the modern rabies vaccines in the late 1960s. Now ask yourself if you or a loved on had contact with a bat, the most common way rabies is transmitted in the USA, would you approve of using that vaccine? Or would you show the strength of your conviction and just let nature takes its course?



I say this as I await the summer evenings sitting on my back patio watching some adorable tiny bats fly through right after dusk. They are fascinating. One of the "honey-do's" dear hubby has after is retirement is making and installing a bat house on our property. Fortunately I don't have a problem with the modern rabies vaccine. But then again, I read The Vaccine Race by Meredith Wadman.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 07:27 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Itchy Boy, when you get into a car, do you fasten your seatbelt? Or do you exercise your "right to choose" not to?

I often wonder of those who like to ignore basic public health precautions like vaccines if they also decide to not wash their hands after the toilet, and do not bother hooking up to the sewer (it costs money!) nor maintain their septic tanks (it costs money!).
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Old 22nd May 2019, 07:31 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by Chris Haynes View Post
I often wonder of those who like to ignore basic public health precautions like vaccines if they also decide to not wash their hands after the toilet, and do not bother hooking up to the sewer (it costs money!) nor maintain their septic tanks (it costs money!).
You could extend this as far as you like. Do you wear a helmet when you ride a motorcycle? Do you stop at traffic lights? Do you avoid touching the wires that have signs saying "do not touch the wires". We give up our "right to choose" all the time in the interests of health and safety. But somehow it's vaccines that are the evil.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 09:28 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post

You have 9 hours of similar anti-vaxxer misstatements about the man's testimony. You would do well to read that link and try to understand how you've been hoodwinked by the anti-vaxxers.
My intention was to be able to make a claim and provide an impeachable source, which Dr. Stanley Plotkin is. So if I make a claim with Plotkin as my source, it's up to anyone to challenge the claim with their own source(s).

By pointing to the appropriate Plotkin clip, I'm providing an easy way for anyone to determine if anything is being misrepresented.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 09:52 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by xjstrappingx388 View Post
Right. But it’s not as if police are arresting people and them down to be immunized. No one is forcing anyone to get poked, IOW. I would call the current situation “strong encouragement,” to get the shots -no school, no college, no hospital work, etc. You don’t need a “Vax Card” to be admitted to public venues.
The encouragement will get stronger as time goes by. It's adults that are the eventual real target. It's a much bigger market.

It many never get to strapping people down but I wouldn't rule out.
All they have to say is, "You can't work anywhere around people." That's only a small step away from what you've listed.
That covers just about everyone except computer programmers in Mom's basement.

Did you hear about what happened to the orthodox Jews in NY? There was a measles outbreak in their community. An order went out to bar them from gov't buildings unless they could prove they were vaccinated. The order was rescinded, but still... Ever hear of 'mission creep'?

Now, if we were talking a bona fide outbreak of "Black Death", I bet almost no one would refuse a vaccine against it. You wouldn't need forced inoculation.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 10:05 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
My intention was to be able to make a claim and provide an impeachable source, which Dr. Stanley Plotkin is. So if I make a claim with Plotkin as my source, it's up to anyone to challenge the claim with their own source(s).

By pointing to the appropriate Plotkin clip, I'm providing an easy way for anyone to determine if anything is being misrepresented.
And now that I have an actual link and the context I can see that his testimony is indeed being misrepresented.

You are missing the elephant in the room. Plotkin's testimony has been cherry-picked and taken out of context. You have been hoodwinked by that cherry-picking and misrepresentation of the actual testimony.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 10:08 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
The encouragement will get stronger as time goes by. It's adults that are the eventual real target. It's a much bigger market.

It many never get to strapping people down but I wouldn't rule out.
All they have to say is, "You can't work anywhere around people." That's only a small step away from what you've listed.
That covers just about everyone except computer programmers in Mom's basement.

Did you hear about what happened to the orthodox Jews in NY? There was a measles outbreak in their community. An order went out to bar them from gov't buildings unless they could prove they were vaccinated. The order was rescinded, but still... Ever hear of 'mission creep'?

Now, if we were talking a bona fide outbreak of "Black Death", I bet almost no one would refuse a vaccine against it. You wouldn't need forced inoculation.
The vaccine manufacturer profits have been so marginal the federal government in the US has had to supplement the production in order to prevent critical shortages.

There are plenty of very profitable drugs on the market. Vaccines are not top on the list.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 10:42 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And now that I have an actual link and the context I can see that his testimony is indeed being misrepresented.

You are missing the elephant in the room. Plotkin's testimony has been cherry-picked and taken out of context. You have been hoodwinked by that cherry-picking and misrepresentation of the actual testimony.
Plotkin's testimony is answers to questions. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't matter if the questions were cherry picked or not, they're valid questions.
All that matters is whether the information he gives supports my claim or not. If it does, then, instead of proving me wrong, a challenger is faced with proving Stan wrong.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 10:47 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The vaccine manufacturer profits have been so marginal the federal government in the US has had to supplement the production in order to prevent critical shortages.

There are plenty of very profitable drugs on the market. Vaccines are not top on the list.
So, you don't see the slow and steady march towards mandatory vaccines for everyone? Maybe one of the goals is to boost vaccine profits. Isn't that what companies do - find ways to boost profits?
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Old 22nd May 2019, 11:08 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Plotkin's testimony is answers to questions. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't matter if the questions were cherry picked or not, they're valid questions.
All that matters is whether the information he gives supports my claim or not. If it does, then, instead of proving me wrong, a challenger is faced with proving Stan wrong.
It's not the questions that were cherry-picked. It's clips of his answers that were.

If you prefer to stay in denial there is no point in my explaining this to you further.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 11:11 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
So, you don't see the slow and steady march towards mandatory vaccines for everyone? Maybe one of the goals is to boost vaccine profits. Isn't that what companies do - find ways to boost profits?
No, I don't see your imaginary Big Pharma conspiracy theory.

I see public health professionals and researchers promoting vaccines after careful documentation of risks and benefits and after-market followup.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 11:43 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's not the questions that were cherry-picked. It's clips of his answers that were.

If you prefer to stay in denial there is no point in my explaining this to you further.
Well then that shouldn't present a problem here. It's simple.
I make a claim and point to the clip that supports it.

If that's construed as cherry-picking, then the entire testimony is freely available for anyone to call me on it and provide a clip that unpicks the cherry.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 11:44 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
No, I don't see your imaginary Big Pharma conspiracy theory.

I see public health professionals and researchers promoting vaccines after careful documentation of risks and benefits and after-market followup.
The two concepts are not mutually exclusive.
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Old 23rd May 2019, 01:32 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Well then that shouldn't present a problem here. It's simple.
I make a claim and point to the clip that supports it.

If that's construed as cherry-picking, then the entire testimony is freely available for anyone to call me on it and provide a clip that unpicks the cherry.
That has already been done, but you repeated the original quote at a later stage. See Plotkin's statement that as a scientist he cannot prove that the measles vaccine is safe, but you conveniently forgot how he qualified this by saying that as a physician he could claim it is safe.

I too do not understand your obsession with Plotkin. You have brought lots of quotes, but you have not found a single smoking gun. You have even tried to hint that because he may have acted unethically many years ago, this should somehow have an influence on whether the measles vaccine is safe.
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Old 23rd May 2019, 02:07 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
So, you believe vaccines are 100% safe?
Ah, the pathetic strawman nonsense begins.

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
If you admit that there have been deaths from vaccines, as evidenced by payouts from the Vaccine Injury Compensation Fund, then how can you in good conscience support forced vaccinations?
Yes. It's very easy to those of us with properly functioning brains. The ability to process information, assess risks et cetera.

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
If you think there have been zero deaths from vaccines, you would be mistaken.
And more strawmannery.
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 23rd May 2019, 02:09 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
What concerns me is that, stupid or not, my right to choose is going to disappear.
Terrible isn't it? Stupid people not being allowed to endanger childrens' lives.
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 23rd May 2019, 03:15 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
What concerns me is that, stupid or not, my right to choose is going to disappear.

On which side of the road do you drive?
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Old 23rd May 2019, 10:18 AM   #279
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Quote:
Since January, the Philippines has had one of the worst measles outbreaks in the world: more than 33,000 cases and 466 deaths from the vaccine-preventable disease.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsan...sles-outbreaks
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Old 23rd May 2019, 10:28 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
If pedantry is what you meant, you should have said so but I'm not surprised this is your answer.


I am surprised by this reply ...I don’t get it.
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