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Old 6th June 2019, 03:05 AM   #1041
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
That's one way of looking at it.

The scary thing is, the other option is that you are feeling silly for having a practical joke work on you and now have to double down and just find some reason it was really racist.
The whole point is that trolling or racism is a false dichotomy. Through the white supremacists trying to troll and trigger the libs it became a white supremacist symbol.
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Old 6th June 2019, 03:06 AM   #1042
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Not really, when avowed racists use it and intend it to be taken as a racist symbol. Unless you're arguing that the Christchurch shooter was pretending to be a racist when he made that symbol.
The whole concept of pretending to be racist is just really weird. Why do I have to determine if someone is a real racist or just pretending?

For example it is fairly clear that Governor Wallace was not a real racist when he was saying "segregation now. segregation forever" as that was just a political view he had to be popular after losing on a civil rights platform earlier. Does this mean that he is not a clear example of southern racism because he did not really hold those beliefs and that anyone making such statements racism is suspect as well?
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Old 6th June 2019, 07:42 AM   #1043
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The whole concept of pretending to be racist is just really weird. Why do I have to determine if someone is a real racist or just pretending?


For example it is fairly clear that Governor Wallace was not a real racist when he was saying "segregation now. segregation forever" as that was just a political view he had to be popular after losing on a civil rights platform earlier. Does this mean that he is not a clear example of southern racism because he did not really hold those beliefs and that anyone making such statements racism is suspect as well?
As I've noted in a related thread...

Pandering to racists is still racist. Supporting racists "despite their racism" because they have "other views I can agree with" is still racist. Maybe not the same degree of racist, but still racist. It doesn't matter if someone is "pretending" to be racist for whatever agenda, as long as their actions still actively or tacitly support racism. (Obviously doing so for the purposes of satire is a different matter, but I'm bringing it up because if I don't, someone else will try to use it as a "gotcha".)

Because what you've said to the targets of their racism is "I will happily give these people the power to deny your humanity and further marginalize and disenfranchise you, as long as I get a elected/a tax break/abortion ban/better job/more power/whatever other selfish desire I have".

This is what is meant by cultural racism. Thoughtlessly sacrificing the humanity of others for your own short-term gain.
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Last edited by luchog; 6th June 2019 at 07:44 AM.
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Old 6th June 2019, 08:08 AM   #1044
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Pandering to racists is still racist. Supporting racists "despite their racism" because they have "other views I can agree with" is still racist.
Pandering to vegetarians is vegetarian!
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Old 6th June 2019, 09:07 AM   #1045
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Pandering to vegetarians is vegetarian!
Yep that is why everyone so wrongly holds George Wallace as a symbol of racism when he was not at all racist, he was just pandering to them. As such it is wrong to classify him as a racist in the history books for his "segregation now, segregation forever" speeches.

And having a black daughter proves Strom Thurmond was never racist even running as a Dixiecrat that so many people think was a racist party for its pro-segregation ideology about keeping blacks out of the white pools.
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Old 6th June 2019, 09:49 AM   #1046
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
As I've noted in a related thread...

Pandering to racists is still racist. Supporting racists "despite their racism" because they have "other views I can agree with" is still racist. Maybe not the same degree of racist, but still racist. It doesn't matter if someone is "pretending" to be racist for whatever agenda, as long as their actions still actively or tacitly support racism. (Obviously doing so for the purposes of satire is a different matter, but I'm bringing it up because if I don't, someone else will try to use it as a "gotcha".)

Because what you've said to the targets of their racism is "I will happily give these people the power to deny your humanity and further marginalize and disenfranchise you, as long as I get a elected/a tax break/abortion ban/better job/more power/whatever other selfish desire I have".

This is what is meant by cultural racism. Thoughtlessly sacrificing the humanity of others for your own short-term gain.
So wanting a better job and lower taxes is racist?
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Old 6th June 2019, 10:00 AM   #1047
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
So wanting a better job and lower taxes is racist?
I rarely agree with you, and I think your question here is a bit unfair, but it's sad that luchog can't see more nuance in people's decisions. People voted for Trump for a variety of reasons. I disagree with such a decision, in part because Trump is a crook and unlikely to ever do anything good for the average American, but I'm not going to presume that every Trump voter is evil because they voted for someone I consider to be, himself, evil. It's just unwarranted.
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Old 6th June 2019, 10:55 AM   #1048
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I rarely agree with you, and I think your question here is a bit unfair, but it's sad that luchog can't see more nuance in people's decisions. People voted for Trump for a variety of reasons. I disagree with such a decision, in part because Trump is a crook and unlikely to ever do anything good for the average American, but I'm not going to presume that every Trump voter is evil because they voted for someone I consider to be, himself, evil. It's just unwarranted.
Racism is an acceptable trade-off for tax cuts. There's your nuance.
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:02 AM   #1049
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Racism is an acceptable trade-off for tax cuts. There's your nuance.
Hey many of his best friends are racists!
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:05 AM   #1050
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
As I've noted in a related thread...

Pandering to racists is still racist. Supporting racists "despite their racism" because they have "other views I can agree with" is still racist. Maybe not the same degree of racist, but still racist. It doesn't matter if someone is "pretending" to be racist for whatever agenda, as long as their actions still actively or tacitly support racism. (Obviously doing so for the purposes of satire is a different matter, but I'm bringing it up because if I don't, someone else will try to use it as a "gotcha".)

Because what you've said to the targets of their racism is "I will happily give these people the power to deny your humanity and further marginalize and disenfranchise you, as long as I get a elected/a tax break/abortion ban/better job/more power/whatever other selfish desire I have".

This is what is meant by cultural racism. Thoughtlessly sacrificing the humanity of others for your own short-term gain.
Some people are so short sighted because they don't have the luxury of putting progressive ideals ahead of paying bills, putting food on the table, and a roof over their head. There are instances where most people can agree on progressive policies like dealing with climate change, yet working class people get hit the hardest when implementing things like a carbon tax. Or all this mass migration and placing all these people into working class cities where they bear the brunt off increased crime, over spent social services, increased housing costs, etc from people who haven't paid into the system. Question any of it and they are labeled racist. They are going to vote for whoever can help them get by and not make their situation worse.

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Old 6th June 2019, 11:06 AM   #1051
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Racism is an acceptable trade-off for tax cuts. There's your nuance.
I see no nuance there.
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:11 AM   #1052
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Originally Posted by Bouncing Bettys View Post
Some people are so short sighted because they don't have the luxury of putting progressive ideals ahead of paying bills, putting food on the table, and a roof over their head. There are instances where most people can agree on progressive policies like dealing with climate change, yet working class people get hit the hardest when implementing things like a carbon tax. Or all this mass migration and placing all these people into working class cities where they bear the brunt off increased crime, over spent social services, increased housing costs, etc from people who haven't paid into the system. Question any of it and they are labeled racist. They are going to vote for whoever can help them get by and not make their situation worse.
But of course cutting taxes on their owners is the number one priority for them and that is worth racism, so that social inequality gets greater and they are struggling even more!

Then there is the outright refusal of responsibility and the welfare programs like we see for farmers "hurt" by the tariff. Take some personal responsibility for the welfare of your business and livelihood people!
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Old 6th June 2019, 12:18 PM   #1053
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Originally Posted by Bouncing Bettys View Post
Some people are so short sighted because they don't have the luxury of putting progressive ideals ahead of paying bills, putting food on the table, and a roof over their head. There are instances where most people can agree on progressive policies like dealing with climate change, yet working class people get hit the hardest when implementing things like a carbon tax. Or all this mass migration and placing all these people into working class cities where they bear the brunt off increased crime, over spent social services, increased housing costs, etc from people who haven't paid into the system. Question any of it and they are labeled racist. They are going to vote for whoever can help them get by and not make their situation worse.
In your scenario, those people are definitely stupid, but probably also racist. No one is "placing" any migrants into "working class cities", and immigrants commit less crimes than natural citizens and illegal immigrants can't even use the social services they pay in to. But the Trumps of the world use racism to stir the fears of stupid people into voting for Trump, and then Trump makes those voters' situation worse.
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Old 6th June 2019, 01:02 PM   #1054
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Originally Posted by Bouncing Bettys View Post
Some people are so short sighted because they don't have the luxury of putting progressive ideals ahead of paying bills, putting food on the table, and a roof over their head. There are instances where most people can agree on progressive policies like dealing with climate change, yet working class people get hit the hardest when implementing things like a carbon tax. Or all this mass migration and placing all these people into working class cities where they bear the brunt off increased crime, over spent social services, increased housing costs, etc from people who haven't paid into the system. Question any of it and they are labeled racist. They are going to vote for whoever can help them get by and not make their situation worse.
"The lower class people had to side with the racist so he could cut social programs and give tax breaks to the mega-rich" is an argument I wasn't expecting in this thread.
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Old 6th June 2019, 01:55 PM   #1055
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I see no nuance there.

How is saying "I don't care if a race other than mine gets oppressed and disenfranchised, as long as I get tax cuts," not racist? That's the very definition of cultural racism.
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Old 6th June 2019, 02:43 PM   #1056
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
How is saying "I don't care if a race other than mine gets oppressed and disenfranchised, as long as I get tax cuts," not racist?
And right there is the problem. The above is what YOU SAY, not what Trump voters say. You are putting words into their mouths based on your narrow and intolerant interpretation JUST SO you can call them racists and thus completely ignore or dismiss any other point, justified or not, that they might have.

I think Trump's a racist, or at least is deliberately trying to appeal to racists. It does not follow that Trump voters think he's a racist, or believe that any racist tendencies of his will have any real impact. You can disagree with them on that. I sure do. But that doesn't make them racists. Not everything that has potential negative impacts on minorities is racist.
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Old 6th June 2019, 05:26 PM   #1057
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It does not follow that Trump voters think he's a racist, or believe that any racist tendencies of his will have any real impact. You can disagree with them on that. I sure do. But that doesn't make them racists. Not everything that has potential negative impacts on minorities is racist.

Yes, I listened to all the voter interviews on the news as well. It's absolutely amazing the sort of cognitive dissonance all those "not racists" engaged in to justify and rationalize voting for such a blatant racist who loudly and stridently announced his racist attitudes and intentions, over and over again throughout the campaign. No one who wasn't living under a rock could have failed to notice the upsurge in avowed white supremacists who supported that racist, who in his turn failed to disavow them (except in the most mealy-mouthed way when forcefully pressed on the issue). Self-delusion writ large.

American culture was built on racism, specifically white supremacism, "Manifest Destiny". It was the fundamental cause and foundation of the bloodiest and most destructive war ever fought on American soil, and quite possibly the most brutal civil war in history. It pervades so much of our assumptions about society, colours so much of our social and political interactions, creates divides and hurdles that are still extremely difficult for minorities to overcome. Our culture, especially in the south, is inundated with the symbols and practices of white supremacism; and many, many people are adamantly unwilling to reject and abandon those symbols and practices.

To refuse to acknowledge that undercurrent, to refuse to question the expression of of that racism, is to participate in it and perpetuate it.

Not all racism is cross-burning, church-shooting, ranting on street-corner obvious. Very little, in fact. The majority of racism is subtle, casual, "some of my best friends are" dismissive. As anyone who is black in this nation, who is Hispanic, even Asian, how they experience racism from day to day.

There was a great show on NPR about this a few days ago. The problem here is that people have a need to see themselves as the "good guys", to believe in their own virtue and piety. There is a natural unwillingness to recognize and acknowledge the bad things they do, because it harms their self-image to do so. Even the worst of people believe that they're the good guys, or at least that they're not any worse than anyone else -- egalitarian awfulness.

So they refuse to examine their own motivations, their own actions, and how those actions affect others. They have effectively said "I'm all that matters." It's not that they don't believe that Trump is racist, it's that they don't care. It doesn't affect them, therefore it doesn't matter; and the cognitive dissonance this generates causes them to invent evasions and justifications for avoiding acknowledging the source and impact of that attitude. That's cultural racism, the refusal to examine the reasons we act the way we do, while continuing to support a culture and society permeated by institutional racism, and not caring about the impact it has on the targets of that racism. "As long as I get mine, I don't care enough about other people to change the way that I think or act."
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Old 6th June 2019, 07:10 PM   #1058
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Yes, I listened to all the voter interviews on the news as well. It's absolutely amazing the sort of cognitive dissonance all those "not racists" engaged in to justify and rationalize voting for such a blatant racist who loudly and stridently announced his racist attitudes and intentions, over and over again throughout the campaign. No one who wasn't living under a rock could have failed to notice the upsurge in avowed white supremacists who supported that racist, who in his turn failed to disavow them (except in the most mealy-mouthed way when forcefully pressed on the issue). Self-delusion writ large.

American culture was built on racism, specifically white supremacism, "Manifest Destiny". It was the fundamental cause and foundation of the bloodiest and most destructive war ever fought on American soil, and quite possibly the most brutal civil war in history. It pervades so much of our assumptions about society, colours so much of our social and political interactions, creates divides and hurdles that are still extremely difficult for minorities to overcome. Our culture, especially in the south, is inundated with the symbols and practices of white supremacism; and many, many people are adamantly unwilling to reject and abandon those symbols and practices.

To refuse to acknowledge that undercurrent, to refuse to question the expression of of that racism, is to participate in it and perpetuate it.

Not all racism is cross-burning, church-shooting, ranting on street-corner obvious. Very little, in fact. The majority of racism is subtle, casual, "some of my best friends are" dismissive. As anyone who is black in this nation, who is Hispanic, even Asian, how they experience racism from day to day.

There was a great show on NPR about this a few days ago. The problem here is that people have a need to see themselves as the "good guys", to believe in their own virtue and piety. There is a natural unwillingness to recognize and acknowledge the bad things they do, because it harms their self-image to do so. Even the worst of people believe that they're the good guys, or at least that they're not any worse than anyone else -- egalitarian awfulness.

So they refuse to examine their own motivations, their own actions, and how those actions affect others. They have effectively said "I'm all that matters." It's not that they don't believe that Trump is racist, it's that they don't care. It doesn't affect them, therefore it doesn't matter; and the cognitive dissonance this generates causes them to invent evasions and justifications for avoiding acknowledging the source and impact of that attitude. That's cultural racism, the refusal to examine the reasons we act the way we do, while continuing to support a culture and society permeated by institutional racism, and not caring about the impact it has on the targets of that racism. "As long as I get mine, I don't care enough about other people to change the way that I think or act."
Thank you for being a well spoken voice of reason on this otherwise ****** forum.
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Old 8th June 2019, 08:23 AM   #1059
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
That's one way of looking at it.

The scary thing is, the other option is that you are feeling silly for having a practical joke work on you and now have to double down and just find some reason it was really racist.

Reminds me of a few old cartoons where someone gets a fake treasure map, and when they find this out they start digging anyway so as not to go home empty handed.
The whole point is that trolling or racism is a false dichotomy. Through the white supremacists trying to troll and trigger the libs it became a white supremacist symbol.
Yes, there are "straight" white supremacists like the Christchurch shooter who use the symbol "unironically" and then you have someone who likes Pepe the frog and has a flag of kekistan who is using it to troll people.

I suppose that such a person mightn't be racist, they're just very comfortable amongst racists and uncomfortable amongst non-whites, but that would be a really stupid thing to believe.

In the case of the alt-right Pepe-the frog crowd, they're wanabe hipster racists pretending to make a pretend racist sign, but one which accurately signals their racism to their friends.

If you are fourteen and think you are an edgelord, this might be convincing and amusing with the wafer-thin deniability that it's only a pretend racist sign. If not, it isn't.
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Old 8th June 2019, 04:50 PM   #1060
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I rarely agree with you, and I think your question here is a bit unfair, but it's sad that luchog can't see more nuance in people's decisions. People voted for Trump for a variety of reasons. I disagree with such a decision, in part because Trump is a crook and unlikely to ever do anything good for the average American, but I'm not going to presume that every Trump voter is evil because they voted for someone I consider to be, himself, evil. It's just unwarranted.
This is especially true when Hillary was the only other choice.
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Old 8th June 2019, 07:49 PM   #1061
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Yes, there are "straight" white supremacists like the Christchurch shooter who use the symbol "unironically" and then you have someone who likes Pepe the frog and has a flag of kekistan who is using it to troll people.

I suppose that such a person mightn't be racist, they're just very comfortable amongst racists and uncomfortable amongst non-whites, but that would be a really stupid thing to believe.

In the case of the alt-right Pepe-the frog crowd, they're wanabe hipster racists pretending to make a pretend racist sign, but one which accurately signals their racism to their friends.

If you are fourteen and think you are an edgelord, this might be convincing and amusing with the wafer-thin deniability that it's only a pretend racist sign. If not, it isn't.
Need I remind you of your defense of UK police doing the Jihadi hand gesture a mere months after a Muslim extremist murdered little girls at a pop concert?

"The gesture has been used by jihadis for years, including high profile ones like Osama bin Laden. Within the jihadi context, the raised index finger takes on political meaning as well, widely rejecting any form of government not under Shariah law," .



The one finger salute is a common symbol in Islamic extremism. Unlike the 'ok' symbol, it has been that way for many years. Skeptics were convinced it was nothing but an innocuous symbol. That's why it's ok for UK police to do it, even with Muslims.

https://i.imgtc.com/iUiQryz.jpg

What Information Analyst said about it is priceless. Just change "ISIS" to "white supremacists."

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Or maybe because most people - including coppers - don't spend all day wanking themselves into a frenzy over ISIS videos, they're unaware of the meaning that you insist the gesture can only have?

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Old 9th June 2019, 08:45 AM   #1062
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Yes, there are "straight" white supremacists like the Christchurch shooter who use the symbol "unironically" and then you have someone who likes Pepe the frog and has a flag of kekistan who is using it to troll people.

I suppose that such a person mightn't be racist, they're just very comfortable amongst racists and uncomfortable amongst non-whites, but that would be a really stupid thing to believe.

In the case of the alt-right Pepe-the frog crowd, they're wanabe hipster racists pretending to make a pretend racist sign, but one which accurately signals their racism to their friends.

If you are fourteen and think you are an edgelord, this might be convincing and amusing with the wafer-thin deniability that it's only a pretend racist sign. If not, it isn't.
Need I remind you of your defense of UK police doing the Jihadi hand gesture a mere months after a Muslim extremist murdered little girls at a pop concert?

"The gesture has been used by jihadis for years, including high profile ones like Osama bin Laden. Within the jihadi context, the raised index finger takes on political meaning as well, widely rejecting any form of government not under Shariah law," .



The one finger salute is a common symbol in Islamic extremism. Unlike the 'ok' symbol, it has been that way for many years. Skeptics were convinced it was nothing but an innocuous symbol. That's why it's ok for UK police to do it, even with Muslims.

https://i.imgtc.com/iUiQryz.jpg

What Information Analyst said about it is priceless. Just change "ISIS" to "white supremacists."

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Or maybe because most people - including coppers - don't spend all day wanking themselves into a frenzy over ISIS videos, they're unaware of the meaning that you insist the gesture can only have?
I'm not sure what your point is.

We are *not* talking about "most people" we are talking about avowed white supremacists like the Proud Boys or the Christchurch shooter. They want people to interpret it as a symbol of white power. We have said multiple times that the vast majority of its use is as the OK sign and nothing to do with white supremacy.

Similarly, if Islamic militants make a finger symbol associated with ISIS, then that's probably a reference to it. If a random person does it, it could be that they are pointing upwards. In the example of the police doing that in the photo, as Information Analyst says it looks like someone might have trolled those police officers. That is all.

If someone with no history of white supremacy or even a history of fighting racism uses the OK symbol, it is probably intended to be taken as the OK symbol. If a group of white supremacists make a similar hand gesture to the OK symbol but in an odd manner - it is fair to assume they're intending it to be interpreted as a white power symbol. If someone from the Alt-Right makes that symbol, then again, being immersed in the culture where that has been used as a white power symbol, it can be considered a knowing use as a white power symbol.
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Old 9th June 2019, 08:55 AM   #1063
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Thank you for being a well spoken voice of reason on this otherwise ****** forum.
Interesting that you characterise guilt-by-association, black-and-white thinking and pretense at mind-reading (Trump voters may not think they are racist, but _I_ know they are!) to be a "voice of reason".
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Old 10th June 2019, 12:46 AM   #1064
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
https://medium.com/s/story/does-the-...t-6cf3309df985

Ok-sign was used by the extreme right before it became a "hoax" on 4-chan. ADL were wrong.

Case closed?
Just a repeat of this as some people seemed to miss it. The "OK" sign was used as a racist symbol before it became a troll on 4chan.
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Old 11th June 2019, 06:48 AM   #1065
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Just a repeat of this as some people seemed to miss it. The "OK" sign was used as a racist symbol before it became a troll on 4chan.

Well that is extremely informative; but not at all surprising given what we know about contemporary white supremacist propaganda techniques. I think people don't give them nearly enough credit for their media savvyness and the sophistication of their tactics. Culturally, we're still mired in this view of white supremacists as unintelligent, uneducated, backwoods hicks, when in truth they're often highly educated and intelligent, and hold positions of considerable socio-economic power.
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Old 11th June 2019, 06:57 AM   #1066
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
You see, to people in Africa, Obama symbolizes hope. To many people in America, he symbolizes a great moment in history, where our country finally came of age.
Indeed, when Bush went after Iraq he had to make a whole show about it and only managed to kill about a million people due to the after effects. Obama on the other hand not only managed to throw US support after the Saudi intervention in Yemen but did so silently with almost no media attention given to it. And what a great moment it was indeed, we're not talking 1 million victims, not 2 million, not even 10 million...but 14 million on the brink of starvation. As the Guardian points out, the largest humanitarian crisis in living memory. If that's not the country finally coming of age then I don't know what would be.
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