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Old 29th April 2019, 04:42 PM   #81
Norman Alexander
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Back on the OP.

I have my suspicions that the guy in question is not exactly rowing with both oars in the water. His professed and quite carelessly candid views are so extreme that I would start to wonder what prompted them, and how frequently and for how long this extremely violent misogynist state of mind has existed. Is he suffering mental degradation of some sort? Drug problems?

One thing is for sure: If he actually means what he says and has attempted to act on these thoughts then he can't be a doctor any more. At least 50% of the population would be at risk of receiving insufficient care at the least, or being on the wrong end of some very bad medical outcomes or worse. I would venture to add that male patients may be likely to suffer as well should they express views contrary to his own.
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Old 29th April 2019, 04:43 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sure. But a patient can certainly switch doctors if they don't like this one's manner.

[snip].
One would hope so in the ideal but in many situations this is not true. Not true if you live in a small community. Not true if you live in a larger community and you need a specialist. Not true for many insurance HMOS and PPOs, which often limit your choice even among the doctors who are in your geographical area. And not true if you have joined a particular health care provider because (1) they recognize your insurance and (2) are nearby and (3) have a great family doctor and a great endocrinologist and a great pediatrician for your kids, but only have one Hem/Onc... who you do not like.... Maybe you sense they hate women because of their Internet posts, right? Are you going to "switch" health providers just to switch this one doctor, or try to make do if you can?

Switch doctors? If one can, but often the geography, insurance plans, etc. do not come together in ways that allow this to happen. Instead perhaps it's the doctors who feel the need to publicly share abhorrent views that relate to how they see patients who are those who should be switched... by their bosses.

Last edited by Giordano; 29th April 2019 at 04:53 PM.
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Old 29th April 2019, 05:25 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Back on the OP.



I have my suspicions that the guy in question is not exactly rowing with both oars in the water. His professed and quite carelessly candid views are so extreme that I would start to wonder what prompted them, and how frequently and for how long this extremely violent misogynist state of mind has existed. Is he suffering mental degradation of some sort? Drug problems?



One thing is for sure: If he actually means what he says and has attempted to act on these thoughts then he can't be a doctor any more. At least 50% of the population would be at risk of receiving insufficient care at the least, or being on the wrong end of some very bad medical outcomes or worse. I would venture to add that male patients may be likely to suffer as well should they express views contrary to his own.
He kept it together well enough to get a medical degree and a license. Either he's saner than you think, or you're raising some serious questions about how Australia certifies physicians.
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Old 29th April 2019, 05:27 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
One would hope so in the ideal but in many situations this is not true. Not true if you live in a small community. Not true if you live in a larger community and you need a specialist. Not true for many insurance HMOS and PPOs, which often limit your choice even among the doctors who are in your geographical area. And not true if you have joined a particular health care provider because (1) they recognize your insurance and (2) are nearby and (3) have a great family doctor and a great endocrinologist and a great pediatrician for your kids, but only have one Hem/Onc... who you do not like.... Maybe you sense they hate women because of their Internet posts, right? Are you going to "switch" health providers just to switch this one doctor, or try to make do if you can?

Switch doctors? If one can, but often the geography, insurance plans, etc. do not come together in ways that allow this to happen. Instead perhaps it's the doctors who feel the need to publicly share abhorrent views that relate to how they see patients who are those who should be switched... by their bosses.
Assuming their bosses have any way to determine that he's bad at his job. I assumed they did, but apparently that's not true.
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Old 29th April 2019, 08:00 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
He kept it together well enough to get a medical degree and a license. Either he's saner than you think, or you're raising some serious questions about how Australia certifies physicians.
Or he's gone off the deep end only since then.

He does sound pretty extreme in these views, and doesn't care about the publicity. No sane doctor behaves that way, even Dexter-like killers.
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Old 29th April 2019, 08:13 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Fair enough.

So how do you normally assess wether a doctor or nurse is treating their patients with the appropriate respect and professionalism?
It's the total picture. We don't know if there is more, but this slice of the picture is intolerable. I wouldn't want to work with him or be his patient. It's very likely this is now out of the bag and can't be put back in.

You express empathy that the consequences are too severe. I wonder how he got as far as he did without being called on his lack of empathy for women.

He can go find a job where he doesn't see any live patients. Perhaps forensic science.
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Old 29th April 2019, 08:24 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
He kept it together well enough to get a medical degree and a license. Either he's saner than you think, or you're raising some serious questions about how Australia certifies physicians.
Or you have an idealistic view that medical licensure and med school weeds this kind of thing out. Sometimes it does not.

And then there's this relatively new matter of social media that draws the most bizarre behavior out in people. A few raised eyebrows in med school can easily be overlooked. Posting insane stuff on one's FB page for some reason comes from seriously lowered inhibitions.
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Old 29th April 2019, 08:28 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Assuming their bosses have any way to determine that he's bad at his job. I assumed they did, but apparently that's not true.
This is one way.
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Old 29th April 2019, 08:37 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Back on the OP.

I have my suspicions that the guy in question is not exactly rowing with both oars in the water. His professed and quite carelessly candid views are so extreme that I would start to wonder what prompted them, and how frequently and for how long this extremely violent misogynist state of mind has existed. Is he suffering mental degradation of some sort? Drug problems?

One thing is for sure: If he actually means what he says and has attempted to act on these thoughts then he can't be a doctor any more. At least 50% of the population would be at risk of receiving insufficient care at the least, or being on the wrong end of some very bad medical outcomes or worse. I would venture to add that male patients may be likely to suffer as well should they express views contrary to his own.
Agree with all of this, but the Australian Health Practitioner Regulation Agency is usually very reluctant to de-register doctors.

I expect this guy will be suspended from practice, fined, undergo training and be required to have a chaperone after the suspension is over. As for his future, forget big city hospitals, but I expect remote hospitals to be interested given their difficulty in recruiting doctors.
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Old 29th April 2019, 09:03 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Glad to hear this guy got what he deserved...






https://www.theguardian.com/australi...-investigation
He didn't get what he deserved YET! Hope he will and soon!!
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Old 29th April 2019, 09:24 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Agree with all of this, but the Australian Health Practitioner Regulation Agency is usually very reluctant to de-register doctors.
I dunno. Bill McBride paid that price and that was for the cardinal sin of faking test results, not physically threatening patients. I think they may be a lot more ready to deregister this chap.

Quote:
I expect this guy will be suspended from practice, fined, undergo training and be required to have a chaperone after the suspension is over. As for his future, forget big city hospitals, but I expect remote hospitals to be interested given their difficulty in recruiting doctors.
Again, suspect not. The recent incident of Gerard Malouf here in country NSW seems to have made some of them a lot more...careful about who they recruit these days. There's plenty of competition from others now, and these recent incidents put a giant black stain on his record.

I think he's done for in medicine.
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Old 30th April 2019, 04:19 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
He didn't get what he deserved YET! Hope he will and soon!!

Maybe he could retrain as a doctor for men's diseases and spend the rest of his life doing prostate exams. Then his misogyni might no longer be a problem. I wouldn't want him to be my MD, but apparently a lot of guys here wouldn't mind. I hope they also wouldn't mind him sharing their X-rays online ....
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Old 30th April 2019, 10:19 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's the total picture. We don't know if there is more, but this slice of the picture is intolerable. I wouldn't want to work with him or be his patient. It's very likely this is now out of the bag and can't be put back in.
This is an argument for not employing him. It's not an argument for revoking his license.

Quote:
You express empathy that the consequences are too severe.
I do not. If anything, I think the consequences have not been severe enough.

Quote:
I wonder how he got as far as he did without being called on his lack of empathy for women.
How do you mean? Are you saying he's shown a lack of empathy towards his women patients, and they should have called this out?

Quote:
He can go find a job where he doesn't see any live patients. Perhaps forensic science.
Certainly.
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Old 30th April 2019, 10:44 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This is an argument for not employing him. It's not an argument for revoking his license.
In your opinion, not in mine. Though I would agree with a compromise like changing to forensic medicine.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How do you mean? Are you saying he's shown a lack of empathy towards his women patients, and they should have called this out?
Those posts say he has. You want more proof. Again, I don't need more proof.
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Old 30th April 2019, 10:51 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
In your opinion, not in mine. Though I would agree with a compromise like changing to forensic medicine.

Those posts say he has. You want more proof. Again, I don't need more proof.
Presumably not for providing evidence in rape cases? The more I think of it the more I believe he has disqualified himself for almost only form of medicine I can imagine. Even pathology. Can we really trust his opinion with any female "patient" - even dead ones?
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Old 30th April 2019, 04:49 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Presumably not for providing evidence in rape cases? The more I think of it the more I believe he has disqualified himself for almost only form of medicine I can imagine. Even pathology. Can we really trust his opinion with any female "patient" - even dead ones?
Exactly my point. It may also apply to law, and even finance. This is a giant problem for this guy.
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Old 4th May 2019, 11:53 PM   #97
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A slap on the wrist and some training and you’re good to go.

Summation of his hearing.

...The tribunal agreed with the Board’s determination that Dr Lee’s behaviour constituted professional misconduct. The tribunal ordered that he be reprimanded and suspended for a period of six weeks and also imposed a condition on his registration requiring him to undertake education on ethical behaviour and communications.
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Old 4th May 2019, 11:57 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Summation of his hearing.

...The tribunal agreed with the Board’s determination that Dr Lee’s behaviour constituted professional misconduct. The tribunal ordered that he be reprimanded and suspended for a period of six weeks and also imposed a condition on his registration requiring him to undertake education on ethical behaviour and communications.
Picked it at #89.

Disgraceful
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Old 5th May 2019, 08:59 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Indeed it is typically very difficult for a health organization or licensing agency to accurately assess this even when the doctor or nurse is failing to deliver appropriate respect and professionalism for all patients due to an internal bias. That's been my point and that of other posters. For the reasons I explained upthread it has to be so egregious, blatant, and dramatic that it glaringly stands out from the individual differences in treatment inherent in a doctor or nurse seeing different diseases, different stages of the same disease, different presentations of the same disease, and different patients.

Trust me on this. I am not a medical doctor nor do I play one on TV. But I've seen more than I wish of the medical establishment as a patient, and a lot as a PhD Biomed researcher.

So what's a good hint? Someone saying publicly (feeling the need to say and expecting approval for saying) that some women should be raped strikes me as a good indication of not being of good moral character and therefore not being appropriate to make life and death decisions.
Not exactly rocket science, is it?



Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Picked it at #89.

Disgraceful

I am always bleakly amused at such responses by professional bodies. Often it involves "ethics training".
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Old 5th May 2019, 02:50 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Doc Martin comes to mind.
Fun show and his wife is, apparently, an ex-cop. She used to partner with a blond.
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Old 7th June 2019, 12:30 AM   #101
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Australian Health Practitioner Regulation Agency says the regulator is investigating Lee again.

Lee’s initial suspension was due to expire on 11 June. But on Friday the Medical Board of Australia suspended him for an undetermined period.

“The board has taken this action in the public interest to maintain confidence in the medical profession,” it said in a statement. “The board will not be making any further comment in relation to Dr Lee at this time.”

In May the Australian health practitioner regulation agency launched a fresh investigation into Lee after Guardian Australia reported that he also had shared patients’ medical records, including x-rays of the chest of a four-year-old girl suffering from pneumonia and an x-ray of a broken arm.
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Old 7th June 2019, 03:12 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Fun show and his wife is, apparently, an ex-cop. She used to partner with a blond.
Ah, the fanfic...
Actually she's been a sergeant once and an inspector twice.
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Old 7th June 2019, 04:03 AM   #103
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My faith in our medical review system is partially restored.
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Old 9th June 2019, 09:28 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It matters because doctors are not robots. You don't have the extreme beliefs about women and have it not manifest in your attitude toward patients.

The extent the males on this forum are going to to dismiss this as some unrelated FB posts or posts on a forum is interesting.
Fortunately, I am quite certain he is a useless POS and given his statements and the clear proof HE made them he should be at best limited to working only with male patients.
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Old 9th June 2019, 09:44 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
In May the Australian health practitioner regulation agency launched a fresh investigation into Lee after Guardian Australia reported that he also had shared patients’ medical records, including x-rays of the chest of a four-year-old girl suffering from pneumonia and an x-ray of a broken arm.
This new suspension is unrelated to his comments about women that were previously punished; however he is going to blame women for this newest development anyway, because he is a misogynist.
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Old 9th June 2019, 01:39 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Australian Health Practitioner Regulation Agency says the regulator is investigating Lee again.

Lee’s initial suspension was due to expire on 11 June. But on Friday the Medical Board of Australia suspended him for an undetermined period.

“The board has taken this action in the public interest to maintain confidence in the medical profession,” it said in a statement. “The board will not be making any further comment in relation to Dr Lee at this time.”

In May the Australian health practitioner regulation agency launched a fresh investigation into Lee after Guardian Australia reported that he also had shared patients’ medical records, including x-rays of the chest of a four-year-old girl suffering from pneumonia and an x-ray of a broken arm.
There was more:
Quote:
and included sharing images of dead bodies, videos of fatal car crashes, and sexually explicit photos of his wife....

... “Singaporean women are some of the most materialistic, pampered and self-entitled women you are likely to meet anywhere.” He described Chinese women as “calculating, ruthless animals”. He took revenge on a woman who criticised him online by posting her explicit photos on the internet, forcing her to close down her online accounts. “A new legion of perverts” would be viewing her images, Lee wrote, “I won.”
A related article:
Quote:
including videos of pedestrians being killed in traffic accidents and images of dead bodies with terrible injuries, mostly of women. ...

Lee’s posts include sexually explicit photos of his wife. He added that if she ever divorced him, he would “slice her open from sternum to anus, rip out her entrails and bathe in her blood”. When asked if he was joking by a forum user, Lee replied: “Absolutely not ...

...if he were to discover a cure for HIV, he responded that he would not distribute it to everyone because, for those who contracted the virus from sleeping with prostitutes or from injecting drugs, it was their “own fault”. ...

... Lee admitted to mocking cancer patients.

Lee also posted his handwritten medical notes, including a photo of the gangrenous foot of a patient Lee he described as “thoroughly septic”, as well as details about that patient’s mental health, age and treatments.
This guy has all the red flags for a mass shooter.
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Old 9th June 2019, 01:58 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
There was more:

A related article:

This guy has all the red flags for a mass shooter.
Except for easy access to handguns. A Harold Shipman scenario, however...
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Old 9th June 2019, 02:20 PM   #108
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What's interesting about this is that he did some truly horrible things. Acts that should get him immediately banned from the profession.

But instead of banning, we're looking at mere suspension. And suspension not for his heinous acts, but for his opinions. The authorities have somehow contrived to be too draconian and too lenient, all at the same time.
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Old 10th June 2019, 02:15 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What's interesting about this is that he did some truly horrible things. Acts that should get him immediately banned from the profession.

But instead of banning, we're looking at mere suspension. And suspension not for his heinous acts, but for his opinions. The authorities have somehow contrived to be too draconian and too lenient, all at the same time.
Certainly must agree with you on that one!!! Well said!!
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Old 10th June 2019, 02:49 PM   #110
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So publicly threatening and degrading women, no problem, that's just his free speech opinion?

As a patient I would want that disclosed before having this doctor provide care for me.


Publicizing patient records is of course a very serious act.
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Old 10th June 2019, 06:47 PM   #111
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So publicly threatening and degrading women, no problem, that's just his free speech opinion?
This response is stupid and wrong, and you know it. Why lead with such dishonesty?

Quote:
As a patient I would want that disclosed before having this doctor provide care for me.
There's a lot of things I'd want disclosed to me. All of my doctor's private opinions. His financial and medical records. His employment records, including HR documents. The detailed results of whatever background checks he's had. I'd want all of that disclosed. Just in case there's something in there I'd have a problem with. Of course, I'm not entitled to such disclosures.

Anyway, your wish has been granted: His opinions have been disclosed to you.

Quote:
Publicizing patient records is of course a very serious act.
I know, right? Between that and publishing revenge porn of his patients, I'm surprised you're still waffling on about his opinions, instead of demanding his summary removal from the profession because of his acts.
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Old 10th June 2019, 09:23 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What's interesting about this is that he did some truly horrible things. Acts that should get him immediately banned from the profession.

But instead of banning, we're looking at mere suspension. And suspension not for his heinous acts, but for his opinions. The authorities have somehow contrived to be too draconian and too lenient, all at the same time.
Agree with the first paragraph. Not the second.

It's not just his opinions though, it's his publicly stated opinions; opinions that demonstrate completely unprofessional behaviour and unsuitability to be in a position of trust, just as his actions confirm this.
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Old 10th June 2019, 09:46 PM   #113
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This response is stupid and wrong, and you know it. Why lead with such dishonesty?



There's a lot of things I'd want disclosed to me. All of my doctor's private opinions. His financial and medical records. His employment records, including HR documents. The detailed results of whatever background checks he's had. I'd want all of that disclosed. Just in case there's something in there I'd have a problem with. Of course, I'm not entitled to such disclosures.

Anyway, your wish has been granted: His opinions have been disclosed to you.


I know, right? Between that and publishing revenge porn of his patients, I'm surprised you're still waffling on about his opinions, instead of demanding his summary removal from the profession because of his acts.
Regardless of how clear you think your posts are, and regardless you've insulted me because your posts aren't clear, you have yet to define what you believe is opinion (that you think shouldn't cause him to lose his credentials) and what you are defining as actionable.

If you are claiming that a physician posting the opinion women should be raped isn't actionable, but posting naked pics of someone for revenge is, you have a problem.

Saying women should be raped is not in the same category as this BS:
Quote:
His financial and medical records. His employment records, including HR documents. The detailed results of whatever background checks he's had.
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Old 10th June 2019, 10:43 PM   #114
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I know from my female friends that it's fairly common to be treated with contempt by a male doctor, more often than from my male friends. There's even some studies that back this up.
That leads me to think that women might have a different perspective on doctors visits than I might.
As such a mysoginist could be a doctor that treats women, be an *******, and still not be noticeable.
The issue comes in if he treats a rape victim.
I do think that mentality makes him flatly unqualified to treat such a patient.
However, there's also the likelihood of someone telling him. I had to accompany a person to the hospital after being raped, and while I wasn't her best friend. She did know I was the one most likely to help her.
He doesn't sound like the type that would earn that sort of trust from his patients.
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Old 12th June 2019, 10:26 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What's interesting about this is that he did some truly horrible things. Acts that should get him immediately banned from the profession.

But instead of banning, we're looking at mere suspension. And suspension not for his heinous acts, but for his opinions. The authorities have somehow contrived to be too draconian and too lenient, all at the same time.
First of all, you're wrong. The suspension for his opinions has already ended as of a couple of days ago; the subsequent new suspension is for the acts that you say should get him immediately banned.

Second of all, I disagree that it was draconian in the least. When you have a public-serving position - more to the point, when your job involves treating people who are experiencing some kind of crisis; so I'm including jobs such as police and fire in addition to medical professionals - when you say or do something that causes the public who may have to rely on your help to believe they can expect to not be treated fairly and objectively by you, or might even be mistreated by you, then I believe that is justifiably fireable. You can't serve the public without their confidence.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There's a lot of things I'd want disclosed to me. All of my doctor's private opinions. His financial and medical records. His employment records, including HR documents. The detailed results of whatever background checks he's had. I'd want all of that disclosed. Just in case there's something in there I'd have a problem with. Of course, I'm not entitled to such disclosures.
This guy made his own private opinions public, by choice. No, you're not "entitled to" a list of your doctor's private opinions; but obviously once he posts those opinions on the internet they're not private anymore, and everyone is entitled to know them.
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Old 12th June 2019, 10:35 AM   #116
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Regardless of how clear you think your posts are, and regardless you've insulted me because your posts aren't clear, you have yet to define what you believe is opinion (that you think shouldn't cause him to lose his credentials) and what you are defining as actionable.

If you are claiming that a physician posting the opinion women should be raped isn't actionable, but posting naked pics of someone for revenge is, you have a problem.

Saying women should be raped is not in the same category as this BS:
I don't know what is and isn't in that category until I've seen the disclosures.

Even if we restrict the disclosures simply to social media, you're still not entitled to see all of your doctor's private social media posts. Anything he doesn't choose to say publicly is off limits to you, and cannot make up any part of your opinion of him (because you don't know about it).

Right now, today, you don't know if your GP harbors misogynist attitudes. Your own patients and clients don't know what secret bigotry you yourself might harbor. Probably none, but shouldn't they be entitled to confirm this for themselves? Shouldn't you know if your GP has ever privately expressed approval for rape? Shouldn't he disclose all of his social media activity to you, so that you can verify for yourself that this isn't the case?

Of course not.
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