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Tags euthanasia , euthanasia incidents , euthanasia issues , Netherland incidents , Netherland issues

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Old 4th June 2019, 12:21 PM   #1
applecorped
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17 year old girl euthanized in Netherlands

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/pa...66e1b1b8e215a1


Noa Pothoven, 17, has been legally euthanised in the Netherlands, saying the pain she was dealing with after a childhood rape was “insufferable”.



So much for the Hippocratic Oath
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Old 4th June 2019, 01:00 PM   #2
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That's tragic. The relevant authorities should have _________ instead.

I must admit, though, I'm having a bit of difficulty figuring out how to fill in that blank.
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Old 4th June 2019, 01:12 PM   #3
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Struggling to comment with such non detailed article
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Old 4th June 2019, 01:18 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
That's tragic. The relevant authorities should have _________ instead.

I must admit, though, I'm having a bit of difficulty figuring out how to fill in that blank.
"not euthanized her"
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Old 4th June 2019, 01:22 PM   #5
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Given hopelessness and emotional pain is not terminal, it was the wrong decision.
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Old 4th June 2019, 01:30 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Given hopelessness and emotional pain is not terminal, it was the wrong decision.
This.

It appears to be a failure on the part of the mental health professionals.


Jesus, how do you roll up to work and euthanize a non terminal 17 year old?
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Old 4th June 2019, 01:39 PM   #7
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Many people do kill themselves even if they have access to the best healthcare.

From the article:

"..Last year, she revealed that been admitted to hospital in a critical condition after her anorexia had left her organs on the brink of failure.

Doctors placed her into a medically-induced coma to feed her through tubes..."

Sounds like she was going to kill herself no matter what, beyond putting her under 24 hour supervision I struggle to think what could have saved her.
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Old 4th June 2019, 01:41 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
This.

It appears to be a failure on the part of the mental health professionals.
Surely only the same way all health care professionals often fail? Some diseases can not be cured.


Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Jesus, how do you roll up to work and euthanize a non terminal 17 year old?
Probably with great reluctance, pain, guilt and pity.
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Old 4th June 2019, 01:45 PM   #9
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"it was the wrong decision" -- by whom and how do you know?

so someone just should have told her: suffer some more years and you will feel better and forget everything?

and it's not as if teenage suicides is something uncommon so why this upsets some here so much.

Last edited by kayle; 4th June 2019 at 01:49 PM.
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Old 4th June 2019, 01:57 PM   #10
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I can't think of anything to add to what Darat said, so I'll just say "What Darat said."
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Old 4th June 2019, 02:01 PM   #11
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Obviously, I don't know the full story, but its hard to imagine there wasn't a better and more moral choice that killing a 17 year old.

With what I know, I feel comfortable saying this was the wrong choice and for those that support right to die laws, this will set back that movement which is unfortunate.
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Old 4th June 2019, 02:01 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/pa...66e1b1b8e215a1


Noa Pothoven, 17, has been legally euthanised in the Netherlands, saying the pain she was dealing with after a childhood rape was “insufferable”. This was murder. She could have been saved.



So much for the Hippocratic Oath
This should not have happened. Psychotherapy could have helped her recover.
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Old 4th June 2019, 02:08 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Obviously, I don't know the full story, but its hard to imagine there wasn't a better and more moral choice that killing a 17 year old.
As I said above - people even with access to the best healthcare in the world kill themselves. It would seem she was very ill for a long time. Sadly some diseases are beyond our healthcare system ability to help.

Euthanasia when you get down to the root is someone deciding their own life should end. All euthanasia does is try to ensure that someone is not committing suicide on the spur of the moment and tries to make the suicide as painless as possible.


Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
With what I know, I feel comfortable saying this was the wrong choice and for those that support right to die laws, this will set back that movement which is unfortunate.
This was legal and lawful euthanasia.
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Old 4th June 2019, 02:10 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
This should not have happened. Psychotherapy could have helped her recover.
I agree in a sense that this should not have happened, but medicine simply cannot "cure" or even treat and control all diseases, hopefully medicine will continue to improve and disease such as she suffered from can be treated better even if not cured.

In this case it sounds like she has had a lot of medical treatment over the years, and it is sadly obvious that such healthcare couldn't help her.
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Old 4th June 2019, 02:19 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
"it was the wrong decision" -- by whom and how do you know?
By me and it's because I know depression is treatable and people who survive suicide attempts almost always are glad they did later on.

Make that ~90%, see below.


I do think the images of a healthy smiling girl are misleading. I doubt she looked physically OK.
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Old 4th June 2019, 02:19 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post

In this case it sounds like she has had a lot of medical treatment over the years, and it is sadly obvious that such healthcare couldn't help her.
I don't see how this is obvious.
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Old 4th June 2019, 02:21 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
... This was legal and lawful euthanasia.
In Norway, apparently.
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Old 4th June 2019, 02:26 PM   #18
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Where Are They Now?: The Fate of Suicide Attempt Survivors
Quote:
Of the 515 people whose attempt was interrupted, only 35 later died by suicide in the years to come. Taking into account suicides that might have been missed by researchers, Dr. Seiden stated that 90% of people who tried to jump off the Golden Gate Bridge did not go on to die by suicide.
Jumping off the Golden Gate suggests these were serious suicidal attempts.

Quote:
Living After a Suicide Attempt: Other Research Findings
This research, though 35 years old, still holds true. Even though a prior suicide attempt dramatically increases the risk for future suicide, studies have demonstrated that most people who survive a suicide attempt do not go on to die by suicide:

In a study out of Finland of 224 people who attempted suicide and were treated at a health care facility, 8% died by suicide within 12 years.
Researchers in Sweden followed 34,219 people who were hospitalized following an act of intentional self-harm. During 3 to 9 years of follow-up, 3.5% died by suicide.
One study followed 100 people who had survived a suicide attempt by overdose. At the end of the 37-year follow up, 13% had died by suicide. (This study’s mortality rate is higher than others, almost certainly because of the long follow-up period and the serious nature of the attempt, which warranted admission to a hospital.)
Overall, a recent review of 177 research studies around the world found that 4% of people who survived intentionally hurting or poisoning themselves went on to die by suicide within 10 years.
This is what the research shows. I'm not judging by my morals or gut reaction.
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Old 4th June 2019, 02:30 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I don't see how this is obvious.
The mention of treatment in the original article, the UHC system in the Netherlands and the requirements for euthanasia not to be a crime.
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Old 4th June 2019, 02:32 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
In Norway, apparently.
It's the Netherlands.
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Old 4th June 2019, 02:33 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
In Norway, apparently.
According to wikipedia, euthanasia is still illegal in Norway. This girl was euthanized in her home country of the Netherlands.
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Old 4th June 2019, 02:34 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Where Are They Now?: The Fate of Suicide Attempt SurvivorsJumping off the Golden Gate suggests these were serious suicidal attempts.



This is what the research shows. I'm not judging by my morals or gut reaction.
Not sure what you are trying to have an argument about?
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Old 4th June 2019, 02:41 PM   #23
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Reading another couple of articles on it, it seems more a case of badly written law.

Or at least law written in a way that is a little free and easy with who can qualify.

Coincidentally we currently have a euthanasia bill going through parliament, which may or may not get voted through (It is a MP conscious vote)
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Old 4th June 2019, 02:43 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
By me and it's because I know depression is treatable and people who survive suicide attempts almost always are glad they did later on.

Make that ~90%, see below.


I do think the images of a healthy smiling girl are misleading. I doubt she looked physically OK.
RE: the highlighted, why does mental health have a focus on people who have attempted suicide before then?
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Old 4th June 2019, 02:50 PM   #25
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It is wrong, wrong, wrong. The Netherlands own laws state that a person taking that decision have to be free from mental illness.

This young woman was clearly mentally unbalanced. Anorexics do not make well-judged decisions. She had her life ahead of her. Maybe a husband and children.
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Old 4th June 2019, 02:51 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Reading another couple of articles on it, it seems more a case of badly written law.

Or at least law written in a way that is a little free and easy with who can qualify.

Coincidentally we currently have a euthanasia bill going through parliament, which may or may not get voted through (It is a MP conscious vote)
'Minimum age for euthanasia is twelve'.

What?!
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Old 4th June 2019, 02:54 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The mention of treatment in the original article, the UHC system in the Netherlands and the requirements for euthanasia not to be a crime.
Governments can’t make bad law and bureaucracies never provide poor treatment ?

Seems you are too quick to say it is obvious.
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Old 4th June 2019, 03:23 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
'Minimum age for euthanasia is twelve'.

What?!
If you want it lowered there will be some resistance.
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Old 4th June 2019, 03:26 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
If you want it lowered there will be some resistance.
Just call it 40th trimester abortion.
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Old 4th June 2019, 03:36 PM   #30
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Well done. The state just handed victory to her abusers.
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Old 4th June 2019, 03:39 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
Well done. The state just handed victory to her abusers.
I'm pretty sure abuse doesn't work that way.
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Old 4th June 2019, 03:42 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
so someone just should have told her: suffer some more years and you will feel better and forget everything?
"Bad things happen to everyone, you should stop clinging to victimhood and just get over it already." - unsolicited advice many victims of childhood sexual abuse have to listen to regularly for the rest of their lives.
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Old 4th June 2019, 03:48 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It's the Netherlands.
I knew I should have looked, but I knew someone would correct me.
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Old 4th June 2019, 03:50 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is wrong, wrong, wrong. The Netherlands own laws state that a person taking that decision have to be free from mental illness.

This young woman was clearly mentally unbalanced. Anorexics do not make well-judged decisions. She had her life ahead of her. Maybe a husband and children.
sorry, in my society you don't tell me or anybody else that i have a life with (maybe) a husband/wife and a child ahead.

really, why are so many upset about this, i don't get it. because 17? 19'd be ok?
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Old 4th June 2019, 03:50 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Not sure what you are trying to have an argument about?
When I said, "it was the wrong decision" kayle answered, "by whom and how do you know?"
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Old 4th June 2019, 03:52 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
RE: the highlighted, why does mental health have a focus on people who have attempted suicide before then?
These are retrospective studies. I don't understand your question.
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Old 4th June 2019, 03:53 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
"Bad things happen to everyone, you should stop clinging to victimhood and just get over it already." - unsolicited advice many victims of childhood sexual abuse have to listen to regularly for the rest of their lives.
ironically, often from people whose major pain has been the loss of their beloved dog/cat
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Old 4th June 2019, 03:55 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Originally Posted by kayle
so someone just should have told her: suffer some more years and you will feel better and forget everything?
"Bad things happen to everyone, you should stop clinging to victimhood and just get over it already." - unsolicited advice many victims of childhood sexual abuse have to listen to regularly for the rest of their lives.
Both of these are straw men in this thread. They might be applicable in another discussion about poor treatment of the mentally ill.
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Old 4th June 2019, 03:55 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Many people do kill themselves even if they have access to the best healthcare.

From the article:

"..Last year, she revealed that been admitted to hospital in a critical condition after her anorexia had left her organs on the brink of failure.

Doctors placed her into a medically-induced coma to feed her through tubes..."

Sounds like she was going to kill herself no matter what, beyond putting her under 24 hour supervision I struggle to think what could have saved her.
I'm unclear- was she conscious and cognizant when she asked for the black pill? Or still/again in a coma?
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Old 4th June 2019, 03:58 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Both of these are straw men in this thread. They might be applicable in another discussion about poor treatment of the mentally ill.
no
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