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Tags euthanasia , euthanasia incidents , euthanasia issues , Netherland incidents , Netherland issues

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Old 4th June 2019, 03:58 PM   #41
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
sorry, in my society you don't tell me or anybody else that i have a life with (maybe) a husband/wife and a child ahead.

really, why are so many upset about this, i don't get it. because 17? 19'd be ok?
The age is only an issue because of the circumstances. If she were 17 with end-stage cancer age would be less relevant.

I'm not sure how I feel about the very old wanting to get it over with. I would have different considerations in those cases.
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Old 4th June 2019, 04:00 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
no
Then maybe you should quote who you think is arguing that.
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Old 4th June 2019, 04:00 PM   #43
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We are in favor of people being forced to live though unrelenting pain now?
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Old 4th June 2019, 04:01 PM   #44
kayle
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
When I said, "it was the wrong decision" kayle answered, "by whom and how do you know?"
and you answered -- 'by me'. to be picky, you admitted your decision was wrong ;P
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Old 4th June 2019, 04:03 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Then maybe you should quote who you think is arguing that.
sorry, I amn now lost as to what you are accusing me of.

Generally, it was her life and she took it. Stop making this chicken farm with clucking about how happy she could have become.
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Old 4th June 2019, 04:04 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
We are in favor of people being forced to live though unrelenting pain now?
that was irrelevant pain. you should wait for your husband/wife... the webz told so
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Old 4th June 2019, 04:05 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
and you answered -- 'by me'. to be picky, you admitted your decision was wrong ;P
How did I say my decision was wrong?

By me, yes, and I posted my rationale including a research citation.
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Old 4th June 2019, 04:07 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
sorry, I amn now lost as to what you are accusing me of.
Your straw man that you doubled down on.

Originally Posted by kayle View Post
Generally, it was her life and she took it. Stop making this chicken farm with clucking about how happy she could have become.
You're welcome to your opinion. Hopefully you'll understand when I say you are not in charge of what I post.
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Old 4th June 2019, 04:09 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is wrong, wrong, wrong.
I am going to surprise you by agreeing with you. It is all sorts of wrong. This is a minor who was apparently raped at three different occasions as a young teen. 3 years later she gives up and decides to end it all.Somehow all of her advisors/counsellors/therapist/whatever just unanimously decided that this was a valid course of action? I am not buying the notion. And her parents agreed? WTF? I know for a fact that I would sacrifice my own life before any of my own kids. So would every parent I know.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Netherlands own laws state that a person taking that decision have to be free from mental illness.
I am not familiar with the particular law. Has it anything to say about minors?

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
This young woman was clearly mentally unbalanced.
Raped three times by the age of 14? That will mess up any kid.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Anorexics do not make well-judged decisions.
Correct.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
She had her life ahead of her.
Correct. Or as it turns out sadly not correct because she decided to end it all.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Maybe a husband and children.
Please don't besmirch her tragedy by descending into misogyny.
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Old 4th June 2019, 04:13 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Your straw man that you doubled down on.

You're welcome to your opinion. Hopefully you'll understand when I say you are not in charge of what I post.
what was my strawman?

true, we can have a fight on the internet, and it's great.
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Old 4th June 2019, 04:15 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
How did I say my decision was wrong?

By me, yes, and I posted my rationale including a research citation.
you wrote -- the decision was wrong. I asked: by whom -- you wrote: by me. nevermind, not essential.
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Old 4th June 2019, 04:17 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post

Raped three times by the age of 14? That will mess up any kid.

Correct.
so a person raped three times in childhood will be considered mentally unstable and incapable of deciding to kill themselves? whereas a non-raped person can because they are mentally stable etc?
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Old 4th June 2019, 04:19 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
sorry, in my society you don't tell me or anybody else that i have a life with (maybe) a husband/wife and a child ahead.

really, why are so many upset about this, i don't get it. because 17? 19'd be ok?

17 yr. olds have been known to make bad decisions from time to time.
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Old 4th June 2019, 04:24 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
We are in favor of people being forced to live though unrelenting pain now?
Most of us will have experienced excruciating emotional pain. It's anguish and pain, Stürm und drang, especially in our teens when feelings are strong and overwhelming.

But hey, we survive.
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Old 4th June 2019, 04:25 PM   #55
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Am I missing something here? Of course suicides happen, but this case is about state sanctioned and supported suicide. I support euthanasia laws, but with a heap of conditions, one of which is that the person seeking euthanasia has a terminal disease with a short lifespan.

Of course this girl was suffering like many people do. This is tragic. But for the state to endorse and support her death in these circumstances is wrong. This, thankfully, would never happen where I live.
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Old 4th June 2019, 04:26 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
so a person raped three times in childhood will be considered mentally unstable and incapable of deciding to kill themselves? whereas a non-raped person can because they are mentally stable etc?
It's the ultimate solution...
People can legally end their lives, but people who would want to end their lives are obviously crazy so they can't be trusted to make decisions like that, and we never have to euthanize anyone without a late stage terminal illness.
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Old 4th June 2019, 04:29 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
so a person raped three times in childhood will be considered mentally unstable and incapable of deciding to kill themselves? whereas a non-raped person can because they are mentally stable etc?
Fact is, statistics show that an astonishing number of women will have experienced rape, sexual assault and unwanted attention.

I don't see that it should be a rational grounds for euthanasia. The shame is with the perpetrator/s not the victim.
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Old 4th June 2019, 05:20 PM   #58
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I worked for a rape crisis center for a few years. Heard horrific details of childhood rape survivors. I believe there was more then that tormenting her. However, I have lived in that pit of depression myself. And survived. This never should have happened.
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Old 4th June 2019, 05:24 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
These are retrospective studies. I don't understand your question.
I was questioning your statement below
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
By me and it's because I know depression is treatable and people who survive suicide attempts almost always are glad they did later on.
If people who survive suicide attempts are almost always glad they did, then why do mental health professions tend to see 1 suicide attempt as a potential warning sign for a second attempt?
If people are 'almost always' glad they survived, wouldn't it follow that they would be unlikely to try it again?
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Old 4th June 2019, 05:33 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
This is a minor
Was she though? Becoming an adult happens at different ages in different places.
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Old 4th June 2019, 05:50 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Was she though? Becoming an adult happens at different ages in different places.
Yeah

Netherlands is 18, unless you get married
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Old 4th June 2019, 05:53 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
you wrote -- the decision was wrong. I asked: by whom -- you wrote: by me. nevermind, not essential.
Who else made the decision besides the girl and her caregivers?

I took you to mean you were asking who said the girl's decision was wrong, I did. Obviously I didn't make the decision to allow the death so how could I possibly be referring to my decision?


Now that that's cleared up...

These are straw men:
Quote:
so someone just should have told her: suffer some more years and you will feel better and forget everything?
Quote:
Stop making this chicken farm with clucking about how happy she could have become.
No one said those things. Some of us said there was a good chance she could get better.
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Old 4th June 2019, 05:56 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
I was questioning your statement below

If people who survive suicide attempts are almost always glad they did, then why do mental health professions tend to see 1 suicide attempt as a potential warning sign for a second attempt?
If people are 'almost always' glad they survived, wouldn't it follow that they would be unlikely to try it again?
Because 10% might try again, and, because people don't just instantly heal after a failed attempt.

You study these things with the goal of helping suicidal people.
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Old 4th June 2019, 05:58 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Am I missing something here? Of course suicides happen, but this case is about state sanctioned and supported suicide. I support euthanasia laws, but with a heap of conditions, one of which is that the person seeking euthanasia has a terminal disease with a short lifespan.

Of course this girl was suffering like many people do. This is tragic. But for the state to endorse and support her death in these circumstances is wrong. This, thankfully, would never happen where I live.
And if any good comes out of this, maybe the Netherlands will consider re-writing their law.
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Old 4th June 2019, 05:59 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
I worked for a rape crisis center for a few years. Heard horrific details of childhood rape survivors. I believe there was more then that tormenting her. However, I have lived in that pit of depression myself. And survived. This never should have happened.
And you have some insight not all of us have.

(not the rape )
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Old 4th June 2019, 06:02 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
so a person raped three times in childhood will be considered mentally unstable and incapable of deciding to kill themselves? whereas a non-raped person can because they are mentally stable etc?
This is a straw man as well. No one is making this argument. Not even close.
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Old 4th June 2019, 06:08 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Where Are They Now?: The Fate of Suicide Attempt SurvivorsJumping off the Golden Gate suggests these were serious suicidal attempts.



This is what the research shows. I'm not judging by my morals or gut reaction.
It shows they continued to endure the great suffering caused by life. Life is not enjoyed, it is endured.
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Old 4th June 2019, 06:10 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Am I missing something here? Of course suicides happen, but this case is about state sanctioned and supported suicide. I support euthanasia laws, but with a heap of conditions, one of which is that the person seeking euthanasia has a terminal disease with a short lifespan.
Why? Why is it any of your business?
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Old 4th June 2019, 06:20 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It shows they continued to endure the great suffering caused by life. Life is not enjoyed, it is endured.
So you have no clue what the research found. Got it.
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Old 4th June 2019, 06:21 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Why? Why is it any of your business?
Why is it any of your business what lionking thinks?
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Old 4th June 2019, 06:22 PM   #71
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it was the nonsensical death of a psychiatric patient.
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Old 4th June 2019, 06:22 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So you have no clue what the research found. Got it.
The research doesn't say anything if they made the right or wrong decision to attempt suicide or not attempt it again.
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Old 4th June 2019, 06:41 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Yeah

Netherlands is 18, unless you get married
Thx, it's a difficult one then.
I would hope they had exhausted every other possibility before granting the 17 year olds request.
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Old 4th June 2019, 06:43 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"not euthanized her"

I see no evidence that that would have changed the outcome, except to increase the likelihood of her suffering more in the process.

Perhaps the assessment that those involved in euthanizing her should not have done so is based on distress caused to themselves, or to some third party. I don't think there's any way to assess that, though, and it doesn't fill in that blank. Is there something they should have done to help her?
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Old 4th June 2019, 06:54 PM   #75
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I know this probably won't be a popular opinion, but I believe in individual autonomy and freedom. In most cases, a person's life is their own, not anyone else's. Hence, it is the right of the individual to end their own life.

Is it possible that one day she might have been happy to be alive, if she had just "powered through" the pain she was in, and endured it for long enough? Sure, it's possible. But still, a person's life is their own.

The exceptions I see are, for example, a parent who is a legal guardian should not abandon their child by taking their own life. But that does not apply in this case. She had no children, and thus no parental responsibilities to fulfill.
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Old 4th June 2019, 07:10 PM   #76
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I'm so sorry I read this topic.

I am solidly against legal euthanasia because of exactly these kinds of circumstances and decisions.

This was wrong on sooo many levels.
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Old 4th June 2019, 07:11 PM   #77
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Coincidentally, the most recent of a succession of GP's I've seen in the last eight months (local practice overwhelmed, ongoing staffing crisis) was a very pleasant Dutch locum and we discussed ... the issue of assisted suicide. But this in the context of ending what amounts to gratuitous physical torture of terminal patients, my opinion being that if they wish to end unbearable pain with a suitable dose of diamorphine they should be able to do so, and that I don't understand the view of people who wouldn't countenance it under any circumstances. He was in agreement and said "well, things are changing".

But that's as far as I thought the discussion had gone, in Holland or anywhere else - ending of what would otherwise be physical torture. This story is chilling and almost beyond belief.
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Old 4th June 2019, 07:16 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I know this probably won't be a popular opinion, but I believe in individual autonomy and freedom. In most cases, a person's life is their own, not anyone else's. Hence, it is the right of the individual to end their own life.

Is it possible that one day she might have been happy to be alive, if she had just "powered through" the pain she was in, and endured it for long enough? Sure, it's possible. But still, a person's life is their own.

The exceptions I see are, for example, a parent who is a legal guardian should not abandon their child by taking their own life. But that does not apply in this case. She had no children, and thus no parental responsibilities to fulfill.
She's not an adult. She IS the child. That's the sticky point.
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Old 4th June 2019, 07:27 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
She's not an adult. She IS the child. That's the sticky point.
Would it make a significant difference if she were 18 rather than 17?
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Old 4th June 2019, 07:30 PM   #80
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The Netherlands should now charge her rapists with murder because why not?
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