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Tags euthanasia , euthanasia incidents , euthanasia issues , Netherland incidents , Netherland issues

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Old 4th June 2019, 07:42 PM   #81
DragonLady
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Would it make a significant difference if she were 18 rather than 17?
It wouldn't make a difference to me if she was 98.

The only circumstance that makes me even open to discuss euthanasia is terminal disease with physical pain sufficient to make what short amount of life left unbearable.

I am open to discussing whether her rapists should be charged with felony murder now.
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Old 4th June 2019, 07:54 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
It wouldn't make a difference to me if she was 98.

The only circumstance that makes me even open to discuss euthanasia is terminal disease with physical pain sufficient to make what short amount of life left unbearable.

I am open to discussing whether her rapists should be charged with felony murder now.
Why would you oppose it if, for example, someone was just really bored?
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Old 4th June 2019, 07:55 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
She's not an adult. She IS the child. That's [one of] the sticky point.
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Old 4th June 2019, 08:03 PM   #84
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Quote:
"For years she never revealed the horrific abuse because it left her feeling ashamed, the 17-year-old said."

“Out of fear and shame, I relive the fear, that pain every day. Always scared, always on my guard. And to this day my body still feels dirty.

“My house has been broken into, my body, that can never be undone. “
Here's the problem. Even in modern times, in a generally progressive atmosphere, there's still a culture of shame imposed on victims of sexual assault. What the hell for? Sexual assault victims don't ask for it, they're not leading their rapists on, but there's still this culture that makes victims afraid to confront the perpetrators for fear of being, what, blamed for her own rape? I don't care if you think sexual assault is overreported, underreported, true or false. A culture that makes it so a victim is afraid to get help because of fear or shame, that's just plain f'd up.

Had she received some kind of support in the immediate aftermath, even just assurances that it's not her fault, she's not to blame, there's no shame in being a victim, she might have felt confident enough to seek out the right treatment or therapy from the start. Not let shame of what happened weigh down on her for so long it came to this.

This entire discussion is predicated on a false dilemma-- euthanasia's not the issue here, it's that being the victim of sexual assault carries such an aura of disgrace as to make suicide seem a preferable alternative to speaking up.
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Old 4th June 2019, 08:43 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
That's tragic. The relevant authorities should have _________ instead.

I must admit, though, I'm having a bit of difficulty figuring out how to fill in that blank.
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Old 4th June 2019, 08:57 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Yalius View Post
Here's the problem. Even in modern times, in a generally progressive atmosphere, there's still a culture of shame imposed on victims of sexual assault. What the hell for? Sexual assault victims don't ask for it, they're not leading their rapists on, but there's still this culture that makes victims afraid to confront the perpetrators for fear of being, what, blamed for her own rape? I don't care if you think sexual assault is overreported, underreported, true or false. A culture that makes it so a victim is afraid to get help because of fear or shame, that's just plain f'd up.
Having gone through something at least...remotely...comparable and having known others who have as well: At least part of the shame tends to be self-imposed. People tend to do very passive, self-defeating, or even self-destructive actions in the face of high stress and strong emotions. Like...failing to report sexual abuse for years. Or failing to seek help / pursue legal action because it's just too stressful. Or failing to even resist. Which is not to say, of course, that society doesn't exacerbate things as well.

Last edited by Shadowdweller; 4th June 2019 at 09:00 PM.
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Old 4th June 2019, 09:09 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Yalius View Post
Here's the problem. Even in modern times, in a generally progressive atmosphere, there's still a culture of shame imposed on victims of sexual assault. What the hell for? Sexual assault victims don't ask for it, they're not leading their rapists on, but there's still this culture that makes victims afraid to confront the perpetrators for fear of being, what, blamed for her own rape? I don't care if you think sexual assault is overreported, underreported, true or false. A culture that makes it so a victim is afraid to get help because of fear or shame, that's just plain f'd up.

Had she received some kind of support in the immediate aftermath, even just assurances that it's not her fault, she's not to blame, there's no shame in being a victim, she might have felt confident enough to seek out the right treatment or therapy from the start. Not let shame of what happened weigh down on her for so long it came to this.

This entire discussion is predicated on a false dilemma-- euthanasia's not the issue here, it's that being the victim of sexual assault carries such an aura of disgrace as to make suicide seem a preferable alternative to speaking up.
But in order to "receive some kind of support in the immediate aftermath" she would have had to report it to somebody in the first place.

I agree with the spirit of what you say. It's terrible that the victim feels shame.

Maybe what's needed is some kind of support before it happens.
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Old 4th June 2019, 09:20 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
.....
Sounds like she was going to kill herself no matter what, beyond putting her under 24 hour supervision I struggle to think what could have saved her.
We have facilities that are equipped to provide 24-hour supervision. They're called psychiatric hospitals.
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Old 4th June 2019, 09:38 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
We have facilities that are equipped to provide 24-hour supervision. They're called psychiatric hospitals.
Yep. Someone sits right outside your door all day, and is immediately available if you need to talk or cry. They're there for you when you fall asleep, and someone is there for you when you wake up. They provide the security of knowing no one is going to invade your room, and yet are far enough away to let you sleep and find some peace.

People do an amazing job recovering there because the stress of their lives is temporarily gone -there's no chores to do, they don't have to work, family is only there during visiting hours, and therapists are there every day.

While I'm the first to admit our mental health system has issues, and that many people don't get the help they need, those who do are usually ready to face life again when they leave the hospital, and ongoing therapy continues to provide the tools and resources they need to put their traumas behind them.


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Old 4th June 2019, 10:41 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is wrong, wrong, wrong. The Netherlands own laws state that a person taking that decision have to be free from mental illness.

This young woman was clearly mentally unbalanced. Anorexics do not make well-judged decisions. She had her life ahead of her. Maybe a husband and children.
How would you have prevented her killing herself?
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Old 4th June 2019, 10:42 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
'Minimum age for euthanasia is twelve'.



What?!
I agree it does seem strange having a minimum age.
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Old 4th June 2019, 10:42 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Governments can’t make bad law and bureaucracies never provide poor treatment ?



Seems you are too quick to say it is obvious.
How?
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Old 4th June 2019, 10:44 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is wrong, wrong, wrong. The Netherlands own laws state that a person taking that decision have to be free from mental illness.

This young woman was clearly mentally unbalanced. Anorexics do not make well-judged decisions. She had her life ahead of her. Maybe a husband and children.
I get the sense that you think that other people should want those things, but not everyone wants children or a spouse. Or in this case, even life itself.
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Old 4th June 2019, 10:47 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
When I said, "it was the wrong decision" kayle answered, "by whom and how do you know?"
And you produced some statistics at a population level and we are talking about an individual, she could have been one of those that according to your quoted figures did kill themselves on a second (or more) attempt.

The Netherlands does have a good UHC system that tries to treat many illnesses but of course it can never be 100% effective.
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Old 4th June 2019, 10:49 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I'm unclear- was she conscious and cognizant when she asked for the black pill? Or still/again in a coma?
Councious, articulate and so on. There is no indication she suffered from a form of dementia or was unable to make her own informed decisions about her treatment.
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Old 4th June 2019, 10:50 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
We are in favor of people being forced to live though unrelenting pain now?
I disagree with your framing but in countries without legal euthanasia the answer is yes.
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Old 4th June 2019, 10:53 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
17 yr. olds have been known to make bad decisions from time to time.
That is true for any age which is why there are safeguards in the system of euthanasia that the Netherlands has adopted. Their system doesn't work on a single decision of "I want to kill myself".
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Old 4th June 2019, 10:59 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
The Netherlands should now charge her rapists with murder because why not?
Her rapists have been convicted? I've not read that is any of the reports I've read, can you share your source?
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:07 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And you produced some statistics at a population level and we are talking about an individual, she could have been one of those that according to your quoted figures did kill themselves on a second (or more) attempt.

The Netherlands does have a good UHC system that tries to treat many illnesses but of course it can never be 100% effective.
I have an opinion like other people in this thread do. When 90% of people who commit a failed suicide recover from their depression to a degree they don't try again, how do you say, well that one could have been one of the 10% so there's no reason to prevent that person's death?

At 17, I'm sorry but I don't believe that person needs support to die, they need support to get past this time in their life.

If that person had a terminal illness there would be different considerations that would go into the decision.


Let's change the circumstances and see what people think. Say a teenager had cancer with a 90% survival rate. If during the worst part of their illness that teen requested euthanasia would you say that was fine, it was their choice?
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:07 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
How would you have prevented her killing herself?
For starters, by committing her to a psychiatric hospital, where she would receive medication and psychotherapy. You might not be able to entirely prevent suicide by someone who is truly determined to die, but you can sure make it much harder and much less appealing.

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Old 4th June 2019, 11:11 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Councious, articulate and so on. There is no indication she suffered from a form of dementia or was unable to make her own informed decisions about her treatment.
Do you not have any kids? Teenagers do not make the best decisions. They still need parenting.
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:14 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
We have facilities that are equipped to provide 24-hour supervision. They're called psychiatric hospitals.
Yes we do and a quick search finds that there are such in the Netherlands. Is that your solution for her illness, that she should have been committed to a hospital so she would be under 24 supervision because she wanted to kill herself? I think what she decided was a terrible decision but I really can't bring myself to say someone who wishes to commit suicide should be what is effectively "locked up".

Seriously say she underwent further treatment, but at age 21 still wanted to end her own life, do we continue to lock her up? Let another 5 years of being locked up and 5 years of treatment pass and she is 26 and still wants to kill herself?

I've found her case heartbreaking and like others think if her decision could have been delayed there is a chance in say 5 years time her illness might have been controllable and she might make a different decision. But I don't think I have the right to say to anyone "you can't decide when you have suffered enough".
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:19 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I have an opinion like other people in this thread do. When 90% of people who commit a failed suicide recover from their depression to a degree they don't try again, how do you say, well that one could have been one of the 10% so there's no reason to prevent that person's death?

At 17, I'm sorry but I don't believe that person needs support to die, they need support to get past this time in their life.

If that person had a terminal illness there would be different considerations that would go into the decision.


Let's change the circumstances and see what people think. Say a teenager had cancer with a 90% survival rate. If during the worst part of their illness that teen requested euthanasia would you say that was fine, it was their choice?
Would I say it was fine? No. But I don't think it is up to me to decide when someone has suffered "enough", that should be up to the individual.
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:21 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
For starters, by committing her to a psychiatric hospital, where she would receive medication and psychotherapy. You might not be able to entirely prevent suicide by someone who is truly determined to die, but you can sure make it much harder and much less appealing.
As I said above, for how long do we keep someone locked up in such a hospital and force treatment on them?
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:21 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yes we do and a quick search finds that there are such in the Netherlands. Is that your solution for her illness, that she should have been committed to a hospital so she would be under 24 supervision because she wanted to kill herself? I think what she decided was a terrible decision but I really can't bring myself to say someone who wishes to commit suicide should be what is effectively "locked up".

Seriously say she underwent further treatment, but at age 21 still wanted to end her own life, do we continue to lock her up? Let another 5 years of being locked up and 5 years of treatment pass and she is 26 and still wants to kill herself?
....
You keep her alive today. Then you deal with later later. Depression is a treatable mental illness. Treatment might not have worked for her, and as a mature adult she might well have made a rational decision to end her own suffering. But a 17-year-old can't even sign a contract. Absent an terminal physical illness, she's too young to decide that she can never get better and can never find pleasure in life.
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:23 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Do you not have any kids? Teenagers do not make the best decisions. They still need parenting.
Under the age of 18 in the Netherlands the parents have to be involved in the decision to allow someone to lawfully decide they want to die.
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:26 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
For starters, by committing her to a psychiatric hospital, where she would receive medication and psychotherapy. You might not be able to entirely prevent suicide by someone who is truly determined to die, but you can sure make it much harder and much less appealing.
You're talking about taking away her freedom, though.
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:28 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You keep her alive today. Then you deal with later later. Depression is a treatable mental illness. Treatment might not have worked for her, and as a mature adult she might well have made a rational decision to end her own suffering. But a 17-year-old can't even sign a contract. Absent an terminal physical illness, she's too young to decide that she can never get better and can never find pleasure in life.
Depression is treatable, for some people, but not all and even treated it may mean someone suffers more than *they* are willing to put up with.
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:44 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
"Bad things happen to everyone, you should stop clinging to victimhood and just get over it already." - unsolicited advice many victims of childhood sexual abuse have to listen to regularly for the rest of their lives.
Perhaps the harshest way to put it and, if unsolicited, certainly the most unwelcome.

I wonder if there was any other method or any other words that could have been employed/used to deliver a similar message of recovery?
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:53 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
How would you have prevented her killing herself?
Well, with a bit more effort on her behalf, if she was my daughter. I'd have moved mountains.
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:58 PM   #111
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Her parents could have protested the decision and apparently chose not to, so I am guessing there is more to it than being reported.

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Old 5th June 2019, 12:01 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Well, with a bit more effort on her behalf, if she was my daughter. I'd have moved mountains.
But what?
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Old 5th June 2019, 12:28 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Yep. Someone sits right outside your door all day, and is immediately available if you need to talk or cry. They're there for you when you fall asleep, and someone is there for you when you wake up. They provide the security of knowing no one is going to invade your room, and yet are far enough away to let you sleep and find some peace.

People do an amazing job recovering there because the stress of their lives is temporarily gone -there's no chores to do, they don't have to work, family is only there during visiting hours, and therapists are there every day.

While I'm the first to admit our mental health system has issues, and that many people don't get the help they need, those who do are usually ready to face life again when they leave the hospital, and ongoing therapy continues to provide the tools and resources they need to put their traumas behind them.


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National Suicide Prevention Lifeline
Call 1-800-273-8255
Then again my late best friend found psychiatric hospitals (and he was sectioned many times) frightening and uncaring places where the kind of care you describe was simply unavailable.

As regards your assertion that "many people don't get the help they need, those who do are usually ready to face life again when they leave the hospital, and ongoing therapy continues to provide the tools and resources they need to put their traumas behind them." - the number of repeat admissions and the rate of suicides and other premature deaths leads me to think that "usually" is a vast overstatement.
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Old 5th June 2019, 12:37 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That is true for any age which is why there are safeguards in the system of euthanasia that the Netherlands has adopted. Their system doesn't work on a single decision of "I want to kill myself".
But we do know that at 17 the brain is still developing. There is good evidence that people do 'grow out of' adolescent behavioural disorders. The majority of people with anorexia will recover given time.

On the other hand I am sure the people concerned did do due diligence before progressing with the individuals request.
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Old 5th June 2019, 12:38 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
As I said above, for how long do we keep someone locked up in such a hospital and force treatment on them?
I guess until someone manages to kill themselves my some other means that makes us feel less *icky* than them being allowed to choose euthanasia.

Of course that method may cause the person far more pain and suffering and, depending on how they choose to kill themselves, may have a greater impact on a larger number of people but the key thing is that we shouldn't feel uncomfortable.
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Old 5th June 2019, 12:56 AM   #116
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Teenage suicide will never stop, and much (perhaps not enough) is being spent to minimise this happening. The issue here (and I’m repeating myself) is the government saying “fair enough, go ahead” when there is no terminal disease. Is this not normalising teenage suicide? Is this not the slippery slope the euthanasia opponents talk about?

I think yes to both questions. It is not outlandish to imagine many troubled young people seeing this young girl attracting celebrity, sympathy and sorrow (things denied to them) and deciding “this is my path”. This is a horrible outcome.

I trust this event will lead to review of these laws.

As I said earlier, I am pro-euthanasia but with restrictions. This is not a harsh or unreasonable position to hold.
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Old 5th June 2019, 01:06 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Teenage suicide will never stop, and much (perhaps not enough) is being spent to minimise this happening. The issue here (and I’m repeating myself) is the government saying “fair enough, go ahead” when there is no terminal disease. Is this not normalising teenage suicide? Is this not the slippery slope the euthanasia opponents talk about?

I think yes to both questions. It is not outlandish to imagine many troubled young people seeing this young girl attracting celebrity, sympathy and sorrow (things denied to them) and deciding “this is my path”. This is a horrible outcome.

I trust this event will lead to review of these laws.

As I said earlier, I am pro-euthanasia but with restrictions. This is not a harsh or unreasonable position to hold.
No. I don't think so

The ability for her to do this was written into the law from day one.

Nothing has slipped to allow it.

Every other country that has legalised euthanasia haven't got such open qualification.

Including the one I mentioned going through parliament here at the moment.

Which you have to be of sound mind, a shed load older, the ability to communicate and suffering from an terminal illness which specialists say you have no more than 6 months alive.

Any changes would have to go through parliamentary process (and there is little evidence the vast majority of other countries that have it wish to change theirs) and would no doubt lead to a public referendum as well. In fact the current bill will be lucky to go through

The slippery slope argument is convenient, but it is purely base on the hypothetical "what if?". Which to be blunt is utter BS
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Old 5th June 2019, 01:15 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
No. I don't think so

The ability for her to do this was written into the law from day one.

Nothing has slipped to allow it.

Every other country that has legalised euthanasia haven't got such open qualification.

Including the one I mentioned going through parliament here at the moment.

Which you have to be of sound mind, a shed load older, the ability to communicate and suffering from an terminal illness which specialists say you have no more than 6 months alive.

Any changes would have to go through parliamentary process (and there is little evidence the vast majority of other countries that have it wish to change theirs) and would no doubt lead to a public referendum as well. In fact the current bill will be lucky to go through

The slippery slope argument is convenient, but it is purely base on the hypothetical "what if?". Which to be blunt is utter BS
Perhaps, but the trouble with laws is that they can be amended and the amendments do not attract the attention of the public. Also they have “exceptional circumstances” provisions, like those that allow young, non-terminal people access to euthanasia.

I’m betting that most people in the Netherlands never imagined the law would be applied in this way. If my belief is true, this event is has become a rapid slippery slope.
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Old 5th June 2019, 01:17 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Perhaps, but the trouble with laws is that they can be amended and the amendments do not attract the attention of the public. Also they have “exceptional circumstances” provisions, like those that allow young, non-terminal people access to euthanasia.

I’m betting that most people in the Netherlands never imagined the law would be applied in this way. If my belief is true, this event is has become a rapid slippery slope.
That is a bit like me saying they are allowing women to fight in combat in the military

This is a slippery slope to them allowing 10 year olds and people who are blind

Edit: As I also pointed out.

Nothing has changed in their law

She has fit the criteria from day one

By all means bitch about her case, but it is the fault of the people who passed the original bad law and the Netherlands public who allowed it
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Last edited by cullennz; 5th June 2019 at 01:19 AM.
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Old 5th June 2019, 01:19 AM   #120
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wrt "terminal illness", it sounds to me like her anorexia was doing its damndest to kill her.
And with the best will in the world, that's not always treatable.
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