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Tags euthanasia , euthanasia incidents , euthanasia issues , Netherland incidents , Netherland issues

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Old 5th June 2019, 06:52 AM   #161
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Well....

Obviously the outcome was the same, and is no less tragic now we better know the truth.

But, I'm very glad to discover the doctors did not act to hurt this young woman.

I'm still sad she's gone, and still very much believe in doing whatever is possible when trying to prevent people from taking irrevocable actions.
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Old 5th June 2019, 07:03 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
(snip)
I think it's maybe it's because "I feel like the emotional pain is never going to go away" is one of the big things in non-euthanasia suicide cases we fight so hard to counter.

(clip)
So much this. In my experience, most of the people who consider or plan suicide don't want to die. They want to stop hurting. But suicide doesn't solve the problem, doesn't lead to a better life, doesn't take one to a faraway happy place. It ends one's existence.

As long as a person is alive, they have the potential to change anything and everything about their lives.

And I firmly believe most of those who do jump or pull the trigger regret it, and many suddenly realize every other problem they were dealing with had a solution of some kind -except that last, mortal act.
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Old 5th June 2019, 07:04 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Confession.

In most cases I don't get the "assisted" part of assisted suicide. What exactly do (g)you need help with?
Procuring drugs for example. If you are incapacitated for some reason, you may need help administering the coup de grâce.
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Old 5th June 2019, 07:04 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Confession.

In most cases I don't get the "assisted" part of assisted suicide. What exactly do (g)you need help with?
Make sure it's done right, for example. And with as little pain and mess and trauma as possible.

What percentage of suicide attempts are actually successful?

Ever hear of those cases where someone tries, but doesn't quite succeed? It could leave permanent injuries but fail to do what you wanted to do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attempt

Quote:
n the U.S., the NIMH reports there are 11 nonfatal suicide attempts for every suicide death.[3] The American Association of Suicidology reports higher numbers, stating that there are 25 suicide attempts for every suicide completion.[4] By these numbers, approximately 92–95% of suicide attempts end in survival.

In the United States, ratio of suicide attempts to suicide death is about 25:1 in youths, compared to about 4:1 in elderly.[5] Compared to adolescents in developed countries, suicide attempt is more common among adolescents in developing countries where the 12-month prevalence of suicide attempt was reported as 17%.[6]

In contrast to suicide mortality, rates of nonfatal self harm are consistently higher among females.[7]
Wow, looking at those figures, I didn't realize just how hard it is to kill oneself. Over 9 in 10 tries fail.
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Old 5th June 2019, 07:05 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Teenage suicide will never stop, and much (perhaps not enough) is being spent to minimise this happening. The issue here (and I’m repeating myself) is the government saying “fair enough, go ahead” when there is no terminal disease. Is this not normalising teenage suicide? Is this not the slippery slope the euthanasia opponents talk about?

I think yes to both questions. It is not outlandish to imagine many troubled young people seeing this young girl attracting celebrity, sympathy and sorrow (things denied to them) and deciding “this is my path”. This is a horrible outcome.

I trust this event will lead to review of these laws.

As I said earlier, I am pro-euthanasia but with restrictions. This is not a harsh or unreasonable position to hold.
How much suffering do we determine is enough before we allow someone the freedom of decision?

I don't separate mental and "physical" illness, to me they are simply illness and if an illness makes someone suffer so much that they want to die I don't think it is my place to say no they can't.

What do you find wrong with the Netherland's euthanasia laws and regulation?
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Old 5th June 2019, 07:09 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
And yet there are countless people who have recovered from anorexia. Not so many with pancreatic cancer and lung cancer. I think you need to re-think what “terminal” means.
Life tends to be terminal. Not meaning it to be flippant but just as a reminder that death is not something any of us can avoid.

In regards to your position does the amount someone is suffering not factor into your criteria?
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Old 5th June 2019, 07:09 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Make sure it's done right, for example. And with as little pain and mess and trauma as possible.

What percentage of suicide attempts are actually successful?

Ever hear of those cases where someone tries, but doesn't quite succeed? It could leave permanent injuries but fail to do what you wanted to do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attempt
*Winces* Okay... I don't want to uncover this can of worms but...

I don't think very many suicide attempts fail at all.

I think a lot of attention and/or help seeking under the guise of suicide fail.

On a purely mechanical, nuts and bolts level killing yourself ain't that hard.

Most of the time people who want to die, kill themselves. People who want help try to kill themselves.

How this interfaces with assisted suicide is... not clear.
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Old 5th June 2019, 07:09 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post

I remain opposed to a law which would allow euthanasia in cases like this though.
Which country has this law? Not the Netherlands: in this case euthanasia was actually refused.
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Old 5th June 2019, 07:13 AM   #169
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Quote:
I don't separate mental and "physical" illness, to me they are simply illness and if an illness makes someone suffer so much that they want to die I don't think it is my place to say no they can't.

The difference is that emotional pain usually changes with the circumstances, whereas physical pain has physical causes that can't be changed.
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Old 5th June 2019, 07:14 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Okay thanks. I’m not sure a twitter post in necessarily definitive, but if this turns out to be correct, I will withdraw my comments in this thread.



I remain opposed to a law which would allow euthanasia in cases like this though.
What is different apart from the legal definition? She choose to end her life, you seemed to be opposed to that when it carried the legal term euthanasia, I don't see what is different?
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Old 5th June 2019, 07:17 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I don't separate mental and "physical" illness, to me they are simply illness and if an illness makes someone suffer so much that they want to die I don't think it is my place to say no they can't.
Then is suicide just... open then? Like never wrong?

There's not a suicide in history that wouldn't fall under "I'm in pain and I feel like it's not worth going on." Hell that's a workable definition for it.

Then what context and standards do we ever use to stop someone from committing or attempting suicide?
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Old 5th June 2019, 07:17 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
By that logic, we're all going to die at some point anyway...
Not by any logic I'm aware of.
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Old 5th June 2019, 07:18 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Not by any logic I'm aware of.
Well it was yours, so I'm not surprised that you're not aware of it.
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Old 5th June 2019, 07:20 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I hate things like that where I won't sit here and pretend it doesn't strike me as wrong but I can't actually come up with any functional argument as to what is "wrong" about it.
That's my experience in this case (or what we originally thought had happened.) it sounds wrong to me, but when I thought about it more I couldn't come up with a reason why it is wrong.
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Old 5th June 2019, 07:27 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Then is suicide just... open then? Like never wrong?



There's not a suicide in history that wouldn't fall under "I'm in pain and I feel like it's not worth going on." Hell that's a workable definition for it.



Then what context and standards do we ever use to stop someone from committing or attempting suicide?
I think for legal euthanasia it is fine to regulate and put safe guards in place to try and make it a decision only taken after an objective assessment of the facts. But in the end whether I live should be a decision for me to take.
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Old 5th June 2019, 07:37 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Winces* Okay... I don't want to uncover this can of worms but...

I don't think very many suicide attempts fail at all.

I think a lot of attention and/or help seeking under the guise of suicide fail.

On a purely mechanical, nuts and bolts level killing yourself ain't that hard.

Most of the time people who want to die, kill themselves. People who want help try to kill themselves.

How this interfaces with assisted suicide is... not clear.
Perhaps, but even if we eliminate the "cries for help" from consideration, there's still a pretty high risk of failure. And, it's scary and messy and traumatic. See the "Outcomes" section of the same article.

Quote:
Suicide attempts can result in serious and permanent injuries and/or disabilities. 700,000 (or more) Americans survive a suicide attempt each year. People who attempt either hanging or charcoal grill carbon monoxide poisoning and survive can face permanent brain damage due to cerebral anoxia. People who take a drug overdose and survive can face severe organ damage (e.g., liver failure). Individuals who jump from a bridge and survive may face irreversible damage to multiple organs, as well as the spine and brain.

While a majority sustain injuries that allow them to be released following emergency room treatment, a significant minority—about 116,000—are hospitalized, of whom 110,000 are eventually discharged alive. Their average hospital stay is 79 days. Some 89,000, 17% of these people, are permanently disabled, restricted in their ability to work.[14]
A 17% chance of ending up, not dead but permanently disabled (and probably disfigured too) is too great of a risk for my taste. Even shooting yourself in the head doesn't always work, but it will probably leave you worse off than you were before if it fails.

As opposed to this "do it yourself" approach, with doctor-assisted suicide, you can get benefits: You can be pretty sure that it will work, and you can be pretty sure that it won't be painful.
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Old 5th June 2019, 07:45 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Perhaps, but even if we eliminate the "cries for help" from consideration, there's still a pretty high risk of failure. And, it's scary and messy and traumatic. See the "Outcomes" section of the same article.



A 17% chance of ending up, not dead but permanently disabled (and probably disfigured too) is too great of a risk for my taste. Even shooting yourself in the head doesn't always work, but it will probably leave you worse off than you were before if it fails.

As opposed to this "do it yourself" approach, with doctor-assisted suicide, you can get benefits: You can be pretty sure that it will work, and you can be pretty sure that it won't be painful.
Then just do what they do.
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Old 5th June 2019, 07:47 AM   #178
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Anorexia Nervosa can be fatal, the prognosis may not be as bad as pancreatic cancer or lung cancer but is often resistant to treatment.
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Old 5th June 2019, 08:41 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...bandwagon jumping approved
Thanks, you two. I had a feeling about this one. Something just didn't add up. I'll never trust the OP again.
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Old 5th June 2019, 10:14 AM   #180
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lol!
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Old 5th June 2019, 10:17 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You keep her alive today. Then you deal with later later.
And repeat this every single time she mentions she wants to die for the rest of her life and pretend to ourselves we're not consciously lying when we say "deal with later".
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Old 5th June 2019, 10:24 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
We already know how that would play out: the self-driving car would swerve to hit all four people, then burst into flames. If the car were built by Google it would burst into flames first, then hit the people. If it were built by Apple it would behave the same way but cost 20% more.
Far better would be to only drive self-driving cars made by Tesla; they would still hit all four people in this scenario, but only the driver would be killed, the rest being merely maimed.
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Old 5th June 2019, 10:27 AM   #183
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And you have to specify how the driver is killed.

- "Tesla, open the doors."
- "I'm sorry, Dave. I can't do that."
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Old 5th June 2019, 10:33 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Then again my late best friend found psychiatric hospitals (and he was sectioned many times) frightening and uncaring places where the kind of care you describe was simply unavailable.
Like nursing homes, they are not all the same. I worked in one that was very good.

Quote:
As regards your assertion that "many people don't get the help they need, those who do are usually ready to face life again when they leave the hospital, and ongoing therapy continues to provide the tools and resources they need to put their traumas behind them." - the number of repeat admissions and the rate of suicides and other premature deaths leads me to think that "usually" is a vast overstatement.
Got data, preferably from the Netherlands to support that? Preferably one that shows numbers for depression as opposed to things like schizophrenia which is a chronic condition. Not all depressive disorders are chronic.

Do you know what the Netherlands invests in mental health treatment?
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Old 5th June 2019, 10:54 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I'm still sad she's gone, and still very much believe in doing whatever is possible when trying to prevent people from taking irrevocable actions.
Some suggestions:

1. Increase penalties for sexual assault, and apply them consistently
2. Teach children as young as possible, in an age-appropriate way, what sexual assault is, to never believe anyone who tries to make it sound okay, and that they should always report it if it happens even when it's done by someone they love or like or are normally supposed to listen to and obey. Follow this up yearly with more advanced language as appropriate each year. And when children are old enough for typical sex-education in school, expand focus on sexual assault as a substantial part of the curriculum, rather than tacking a mention on as an afterthought.
3. Stop treating sexual aggression and harassment that stops short of assault as acceptable behavior, or a funny or charming personality quirk, regardless of age, and start treating it like the warning sign that it is.
4. Stop treating sexual trauma as something that should be "just gotten over". Stop shaming people for hangups, sex-aversion, or body-image issues they develop as a result of abuse. Strategize treatment as a long-term thing.
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Old 5th June 2019, 11:30 AM   #186
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There will always be some people committing suicide, whether assisted or not (here, it was not assisted as has been noted except for agreeing not to force-feed her).

But, the story I read was when she went last year to seek assisted suicide, she was denied as she didn't fall within the criteria. Okay, fine, but what other help was she offered or given?! And, if someone is suicidal, even if they don't want to try therapy/counselling/psychoactive drugs, if they're not an adult, should that decision be respected or not?

Note, while I'm generally opposed to assisted suicide (not only for moral reasons, but because I think it too easy for people and the state to think, okay, low-cost solution = suicide) even someone in favour may have problems with the manner and ease of it. What alternatives are offered that are, guess what, more expensive and time-consuming than killing them? Or in another context, some people commit suicide because they're denied effective pain relief because of laws and regulations and desire to prevent people from getting addicted (too late...) = let people suffer because someone not experiencing their pain thinks they're taking too much. If someone wants suicide (assisted or not), despite what I or anyone else may think, I'm a lot more comfortable if they've genuinely been able to avail themselves of other potential treatments, but not if they've been denied them.
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Old 5th June 2019, 11:47 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
How would you have prevented her killing herself?
Take her away from her environment. Maybe a Meditteranean cruise, attain a place at a University with a good possibility of making new friends and taking up an interesting course of study.

At seventeen, all she had ever done was live at home.
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Old 5th June 2019, 11:48 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I get the sense that you think that other people should want those things, but not everyone wants children or a spouse. Or in this case, even life itself.
That was just an example. 85% of the population do find their 'other half' (as Plato put it) and 85% have children. It's perfectly OK not to. Some studies show single females are the happiest group of all.
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Old 5th June 2019, 11:52 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I have an opinion like other people in this thread do. When 90% of people who commit a failed suicide recover from their depression to a degree they don't try again, how do you say, well that one could have been one of the 10% so there's no reason to prevent that person's death?

At 17, I'm sorry but I don't believe that person needs support to die, they need support to get past this time in their life.

If that person had a terminal illness there would be different considerations that would go into the decision.


Let's change the circumstances and see what people think. Say a teenager had cancer with a 90% survival rate. If during the worst part of their illness that teen requested euthanasia would you say that was fine, it was their choice?
First there is the issue of the Hippocratic oath. Is it fair to ask doctors to end life instead of trying to heal people?

Secondly, end of life care for illnesses like cancer is much improved. Pain control is at its best these days. Terminal cancer sufferers and their loved ones are grateful for any extra time together.
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Old 5th June 2019, 11:59 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I've always found anorexia to be difficult to understand.

Do anorexics not feel hunger like most people do?
They do. They also have very strong willpower to stop them from succumbing to it.
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Old 5th June 2019, 12:17 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I think for legal euthanasia it is fine to regulate and put safe guards in place to try and make it a decision only taken after an objective assessment of the facts. But in the end whether I live should be a decision for me to take.
You don't think it wrong to involve people from the caring professions?

A friend of mine who was a psychiatric nurse/carer had under her care in an institution for mentally distressed young people a girl who sadly killed herself on her watch.

My friend's agony that she wasn't able to resuscitate this girl has been unbearable: having to see the girl's parents blaming her ('the staff') and the look on the girl's mother's face of pure hatred and anger at the pubic inquiry. Having to be cross-examined by the coroner. She has to live with this irrational guilt for the rest of her life: an extremely caring person who had a young woman top herself whilst under her care, even though she had made many attempts before. All sympathies are with the girl's mother, who has been interviewed extensively on tv, none for her.

So if you took the decision, you would be happy for your carers to feel terrible about it?
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Old 5th June 2019, 12:22 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Winces* Okay... I don't want to uncover this can of worms but...

I don't think very many suicide attempts fail at all.

I think a lot of attention and/or help seeking under the guise of suicide fail.

On a purely mechanical, nuts and bolts level killing yourself ain't that hard.

Most of the time people who want to die, kill themselves. People who want help try to kill themselves.

How this interfaces with assisted suicide is... not clear.
Loads of suicide attempts fail

It is why women attempt suicide more than men, but mean succeed at it more than women.

It all comes down to the method.

Women just chose more passive methods of trying it.

You could argue a lot of the fails are actually cries out for attention, but that is a different topic
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Old 5th June 2019, 01:00 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So if you took the decision, you would be happy for your carers to feel terrible about it?
No, I'd hope very much that they not involve themselves. It's not like they have to.
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Old 5th June 2019, 01:03 PM   #194
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I guess for me a lot of this is the disparage between suicide and assisted suicide / euthanasia where the two actions carry such radically different standards.

If this girl (at least within the way the situation was first presented to us) had killed herself in the traditional sense/usage of the term it would have been a tragedy.

But she does it with the help of a doctor and it just... magically becomes different?
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Old 5th June 2019, 01:37 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I guess for me a lot of this is the disparage between suicide and assisted suicide / euthanasia where the two actions carry such radically different standards.

If this girl (at least within the way the situation was first presented to us) had killed herself in the traditional sense/usage of the term it would have been a tragedy.

But she does it with the help of a doctor and it just... magically becomes different?
I am not surprised a teenage girl believes her whole life has been ruined by a traumatic experience like rape.

I expect the medical professional -and particularly a licensed doctor- to know better.

When the one turns his back on the prime directive of his career -to heal his patients- and instead chooses to kill one of them, that is a monumental leap in the wrong direction as far as I'm concerned. I'm somewhat better with "assisted suicides" of those who are terminally ill and absolutely will not get better.

I also feel the same about doctors administering lethal injections for executions.
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Old 5th June 2019, 02:07 PM   #196
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As already noted, the reports of euthanasia were inaccurate. More details of what did happen and how it was misreported here - https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...d-died-at-home

Quote:
According to multiple sources at British national newspapers, news outlets were alerted to the story by the newswire Central European News, which specialises in supplying unusual and quirky foreign stories to English-language news outlets.

CEN, which has previously been accused of providing unreliable information, did not immediately return a request for comment. Michael Leidig, who runs the agency, has always contested claims that it provides dubious information.

Earlier this year, the company lost the latest stage in a four-year libel case against BuzzFeed News over a 5,000-word article in which Leidig was described as the “king of ******** news”.
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Old 5th June 2019, 02:25 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You don't think it wrong to involve people from the caring professions?

A friend of mine who was a psychiatric nurse/carer had under her care in an institution for mentally distressed young people a girl who sadly killed herself on her watch.

My friend's agony that she wasn't able to resuscitate this girl has been unbearable: having to see the girl's parents blaming her ('the staff') and the look on the girl's mother's face of pure hatred and anger at the pubic inquiry. Having to be cross-examined by the coroner. She has to live with this irrational guilt for the rest of her life: an extremely caring person who had a young woman top herself whilst under her care, even though she had made many attempts before. All sympathies are with the girl's mother, who has been interviewed extensively on tv, none for her.

So if you took the decision, you would be happy for your carers to feel terrible about it?
Re: the highlighted, if it's unbearable then that's where euthanasia can become an option.

Edit: the rest? Not interested in drama and eastender soap opera stuff, how someone feels about something has nothing to do with the reality of that something.

Last edited by p0lka; 5th June 2019 at 02:39 PM.
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Old 5th June 2019, 02:37 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I guess for me a lot of this is the disparage between suicide and assisted suicide / euthanasia where the two actions carry such radically different standards.

If this girl (at least within the way the situation was first presented to us) had killed herself in the traditional sense/usage of the term it would have been a tragedy.

But she does it with the help of a doctor and it just... magically becomes different?
Don't see why it changes. It's a tragedy either way.
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Old 5th June 2019, 02:41 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Why does there even need to be a state sanctioned medical procedure?

It seems most of the people getting it done could do it the old fashioned way.
I went out with a right-to-die activist. He lobbied to change laws; I tried to think of foolproof ways to kill yourself with minimal physical effort.

Like a cyanide capsule placed under the skin that would open when anyone said "tomfoolery." But given the current state of voice recognition software that seemed way too risky. You could say, "I don't like patchouli" and bang, lights out.

This guy would not answer me when I asked if he'd ever performed the deed for someone. But he had a big stash of off-the-books Valium and one technique I read about involved simply sedating a patient and then finishing with a plastic bag. These people didn't want to leave messes or traumatize others by jumping in front of a semi truck driver, for example. The right-to-die folks were nice, upbeat, perfectly normal people who just had strong feelings about anyone's enduring terminal misery in a hopeless situation. I might also add that under the U.S. health-care system there is a profit motive to keeping people alive until their assets have been exhausted. I don't think anyone is consciously doing it, necessarily.

Given the provenance of this story, I suggest there are people on the lookout for events in Europe that can be fashioned into troll material by manipulating the source material in order to give a false impression of the narrative. Pushed our buttons, didn't it? Childless Europeans killing white children who look reasonably healthy.
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Old 5th June 2019, 02:43 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Don't see why it changes. It's a tragedy either way.
I think there are differences, but they're not magical.

Discussing your options with your family and friends, having a farewell and then dying in the presence of those old enough to understand what is happening is a lot different from swallowing a lead aspirin while the wife and kids are out. One of those is shattering in a way the other isn't.
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