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Old 6th June 2019, 10:59 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Why did you not read the whole post where I explain what the word means?

If they're not indigenous, then they're not expected ("supposed") to be there.
Why do you assume that I didn't read it? Are you looking over my shoulder at my monitor and watching me skim over all the posts? I read it. I don't agree with your use of the word.

I think most people in North America actually DO expect to see domestic cats in both urban and rural locations. I do not agree with your use of the word "expected" in this context either.
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Old 6th June 2019, 10:59 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
One "more" is actually one that was introduced early in the invasive species process. Cats have been here for hundreds of years and trying to turn back the clock is futile.
I really don't understand what your logic is. Cats live with people in NA so we should just let them roam freely all around the continent? What IS your argument, precisely?

It's all irrelevant anyway. If you're going to let your cat outside, supervised or otherwise, by all means let it keep its claws. Don't force other people, who might not let theirs outside, to do the same.

Quote:
The CVMA seems to disagree with you on the topic of pain.
I realise that. I happen to disagree with them, too.

Quote:
Point of interest - I have owned spaniels, springer and cocker, for more than 40 years. all of my dogs have had their tails docked to breed standard.
Same there: I would never clip a dog's tail unless it was a medical necessity, but I don't begrudge people who do.
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:01 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Why do you assume that I didn't read it?
Because your response makes no sense if you understand what the word means.

Quote:
I don't agree with your use of the word.
It's what the word means.
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:03 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
The problem is that overpopulation also causes pain and anguish...
Maybe, but that's not why I had my bunny neutered, as it had zero chance of meeting another rabbit or to get outside the building.

Quote:
unadopted cats can either become feral (Where they kill birds and other animals, often painfully), or take up space in shelters (where they often have to be put down due to overcrowding.)
So why does that justification ("we don't want overpopulation") work and not mine ("I want to keep my furniture intact")?
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:08 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Why do you assume that I didn't read it? Are you looking over my shoulder at my monitor and watching me skim over all the posts? I read it. I don't agree with your use of the word.

I think most people in North America actually DO expect to see domestic cats in both urban and rural locations. I do not agree with your use of the word "expected" in this context either.
Just like the emerald ash borer.
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:08 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I wouldn't have a cat declawed but I would have it circumsized, so the other cats in the locker room wouldn't make fun of it.
Offtopic:
I'm from the UK and I find it really strange that circumcision for non medical reasons is a common occurance in other parts of the world. Cutting bits off kids, male or female, for religious reasons is frankly staggering.
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:14 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I really don't understand what your logic is. Cats live with people in NA so we should just let them roam freely all around the continent? What IS your argument, precisely?
You have stated my position quite succinctly and then proceed as if you do not understand my argument. Odd.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's all irrelevant anyway. If you're going to let your cat outside, supervised or otherwise, by all means let it keep its claws. Don't force other people, who might not let theirs outside, to do the same.
I do not find myself here forcing anyone to do anything. In my view I was merely offering and opinion. If anyone here feels forced by me I sincerely apologize/ That was not my intention



Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I realise that. I happen to disagree with them, too.
No doubt because you think their position is just an argument from authority provided without any prior investigation or evidence. Vets should not just go spouting off uninformed opinions about animals.


Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Same there: I would never clip a dog's tail unless it was a medical necessity, but I don't begrudge people who do.
And yet you advocate removing a cat's toes without medical necessity.

I sense a lack of consistency in your statements.
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:14 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Maybe, but that's not why I had my bunny neutered, as it had zero chance of meeting another rabbit or to get outside the building.



So why does that justification ("we don't want overpopulation") work and not mine ("I want to keep my furniture intact")?
Because keeping your furniture intact does not mean that the cats have to be declawed.
All that is needed is that the cats nails are trimmed once in a while (just like our own) and that the owner takes some time to teach the cat where he can scratch and where it can’t.
This is not impossible or something, but does mean the owner of the cat has to spend some attention to it.

Just like a dog that barks too much. That simply should not have to occur.

But these days it is easier to take the lazy route and cut away the offending claws/voice chords instead of acting like a responsible pet owner.
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:19 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Maybe, but that's not why I had my bunny neutered, as it had zero chance of meeting another rabbit or to get outside the building.
Was the neutering medically necessary?

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
So why does that justification ("we don't want overpopulation") work and not mine ("I want to keep my furniture intact")?
Segnosaur thinks it is necessary to surgically alter animals to reduce suffering in feral animals. You think it is necessary (or perhaps desirable?) to surgically alter animals keep your couch looking pretty. No logical person would see any difference between these two positions.
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:26 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Offtopic:
I'm from the UK and I find it really strange that circumcision for non medical reasons is a common occurance in other parts of the world. Cutting bits off kids, male or female, for religious reasons is frankly staggering.
In the US at least it's not mostly done for religious reasons. I think a lot of it is just cultural pressure to conform. Most of it started with pseudoscientific notions surrounding "hygiene" in the decades before and immediately after WW2. As time passes memory of that era's oddities and propaganda fades, and circumcision rates decline. It'll die out except for the religious within another few decades.
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:28 AM   #51
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Darling, we've seen your furniture, and it's perfectly acceptable for use as scratching posts. There will always be more plywood for sale at Target. *snaps fingers bitchily*
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:29 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
You have stated my position quite succinctly and then proceed as if you do not understand my argument. Odd.
Not odd. I chanced a guess. If that's your argument, it's ridiculous.

Meh, global warming is happening anyway. Carbon away!

Quote:
I do not find myself here forcing anyone to do anything. In my view I was merely offering and opinion. If anyone here feels forced by me I sincerely apologize/ That was not my intention
Fair enough.

Quote:
No doubt because you think their position is just an argument from authority provided without any prior investigation or evidence.
No, because I don't find that the pain and suffering is more than a short-term inconvenience, with a host of benefits for the owner.

Quote:
And yet you advocate removing a cat's toes without medical necessity.
There's a difference between "I wouldn't do it" and "it should be banned". There is no benefit for me to clip the tail. If there is for other people (usually cosmetic), that's fine by me. There is no inconsistency.
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:30 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
Because keeping your furniture intact does not mean that the cats have to be declawed.
Yes it does.

Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Was the neutering medically necessary?
No, it was a choice in order to keep the rabbit's behaviour in check.

Quote:
No logical person would see any difference between these two positions.
That's fine. I don't advocate for making either illegal.
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:31 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Quote:
unadopted cats can either become feral (Where they kill birds and other animals, often painfully), or take up space in shelters (where they often have to be put down due to overcrowding.)
So why does that justification ("we don't want overpopulation") work and not mine ("I want to keep my furniture intact")?
I thought I explained it well enough....

For some people, the goal is to minimize the amount of unnecessary animal suffering (not only of our own immediate pets, but from all animals in general), while maximizing the amount of time animals live in comfort.

Getting your cat spayed/neutered causes pain to your pet for a short time. Not getting your cat fixed (and it reproducing) causes a greater amount of pain and suffering for a larger number of animals (even if they're not your pets).

Now you could claim "My cat is always an indoor cat", but there is no guarantee that your cat will not be able to escape the house at some point.
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:32 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
For some people, the goal is to minimize the amount of unnecessary animal suffering (not only of our own immediate pets, but from all animals in general), while maximizing the amount of time animals live in comfort.
For me, too. As I said, I don't find the pain and suffering of declawing to be more than a short-term one for the cat. If it were in pain for weeks or months following the operation I would view it differently.

Quote:
Getting your cat spayed/neutered causes pain to your pet for a short time.
Tell that to my bunny.
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:46 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Not odd. I chanced a guess. If that's your argument, it's ridiculous.

Meh, global warming is happening anyway. Carbon away!
You claim ridiculous but offer no explanation why.

You want ridiculous? Think a bout your analogy





Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No, because I don't find that the pain and suffering is more than a short-term inconvenience, with a host of benefits for the owner.
Of course not. It is not your pain and suffering.



Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
There's a difference between "I wouldn't do it" and "it should be banned".
Ok, I agree. I am not advocating banning the practice by law either, although I would like to see it stopped. I think the CVMA is taking the right approach. They are recommending that vets stop doing certain medically unnecessary procedures. It is up to the individual vets to decide if they wish to continue offering these procedures. I suspect most will not.
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:49 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
You claim ridiculous but offer no explanation why.

You want ridiculous? Think a bout your analogy
The ridiculous analagy WAS the explanation!

Quote:
Of course not. It is not your pain and suffering.
Do you want to discuss this, or just attack people who disagree with you?

I find it so because of my observations of actual cats post-op.

Quote:
Ok, I agree. I am not advocating banning the practice by law either, although I would like to see it stopped.
Again, fair enough.
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Old 6th June 2019, 12:05 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
There are so many threads right now about the ethics of various medical practices. I wonder, is it okay to euthanize a cat if it requests it? What if the cat desires a sex change? Does either answer change if the cat is an illegal immigrant, or a Russian spy whale? If the cat transitions to female will Biden pet it more? If it's traumatized by Biden and doesn't have claws to scratch him with, could the cat request Biden be euthanized?
And most importantly, can we compile all the above data into a useful spreadsheet?
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Old 6th June 2019, 12:21 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The ridiculous analagy WAS the explanation!
If you say so. Seems I am not bright enough to understand. Letting a cat outside is the equivalent of global warming. I guess I can live with that.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Do you want to discuss this, or just attack people who disagree with you?
You're right! I have done nothing but attack! attack! attack! I need to get myself under control. I'll be back when my meds kick in.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I find it so because of my observations of actual cats post-op.
Which you seem to think trumps the observations by vets of post op cats. Guess whose opinions I think are more reliable.



Again, fair enough.[/quote]
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Old 6th June 2019, 12:24 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Spaying or neutering is done to prevent overpopulation (which results in more cats that will probably have to be euthanized because people can't find homes.)
//Devil's Advocate, Devil's Advocate//

Okay by why use the most evasive version of that surgery? Spaying and Neutering is equivalent to castration or a full hysterectomy when something equivalent to a vasectomy or tubal ligation would accomplish the "Prevent over population" thing exactly as well.
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Old 6th June 2019, 12:28 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Offtopic:
I'm from the UK and I find it really strange that circumcision for non medical reasons is a common occurance in other parts of the world. Cutting bits off kids, male or female, for religious reasons is frankly staggering.
Declawing: somewhat controversial, banned in some places

male genital mutilation: it's ok because the father looks that way - you're an anti-semite for not allowing it - a hypothetical woman might prefer it that way - 100 foreskin removals might prevent a single UTI etc etc.

Legal virtually everywhere for arbitrary reasons.

I'm against both, fwiw
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Old 6th June 2019, 12:30 PM   #62
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I have a friend who has an un-neutered male cat. I don't have a strong opinion on the matter, really, and I think it's cool that my friend stands by his principles. But that cat (and maybe it's just that particular cat, I don't know) is MEAN. Or, rather, he has spells of insane meanness. He gets "hormonal" (that's what my friend says) and becomes extremely aggressive and easily agitated. Just somebody standing up too quickly can set him off.

He actually attacked me once when I was house-sitting. I had to shut myself in the bathroom until he calmed down, and I was covered in pretty gnarly scratches. I felt ridiculous fleeing from a vicious house cat, but that's what had to happen. He posted outside the door doing these low, threatening "mrrrrooowwwlllls," and any time I tried to open the door, he'd lunge again. He didn't go away for ages.

I guess that's probably not the case with all cats.

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Old 6th June 2019, 12:30 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
But it was already in the slave store, and at least being enslaved by me is a pretty excellent setup. When I have pet, I usually feel like I am the slave.
Especially if it is a cat.

Dogs have owners, cats have staff. A cat starts training you the moment you bring it home.
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Old 6th June 2019, 12:30 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Darling, we've seen your furniture, and it's perfectly acceptable for use as scratching posts. There will always be more plywood for sale at Target. *snaps fingers bitchily cattily*
FTFY

Yes I had to google if that was a an adverb for catty.
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Old 6th June 2019, 12:47 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Getting your cat spayed/neutered causes pain to your pet for a short time. Not getting your cat fixed (and it reproducing) causes a greater amount of pain and suffering for a larger number of animals (even if they're not your pets).

Now you could claim "My cat is always an indoor cat", but there is no guarantee that your cat will not be able to escape the house at some point.
But doesn't that fall in with rewinl's rebuttal about getting your cat declawed?


Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
This is not impossible or something, but does mean the owner of the cat has to spend some attention to it. [Snip]..

But these days it is easier to take the lazy route and cut away the offending claws/voice chords(reproductive organs) instead of acting like a responsible pet owner.
Just spend extra care not letting your cat out. Get it a trainer that will teach it so. It's spraying all over your furniture? Why is your need for non-piss smelling furniture more important than not subjecting your cat to unnecessary surgery? It just needs more training..
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Old 6th June 2019, 12:51 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
But doesn't that fall in with rewinl's rebuttal about getting your cat declawed?




Just spend extra care not letting your cat out. Get it a trainer that will teach it so. It's spraying all over your furniture? Why is your need for non-piss smelling furniture more important than not subjecting your cat to unnecessary surgery? It just needs more training..
Much easier - don't get a cat.
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Old 6th June 2019, 01:05 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I have a friend who has an un-neutered male cat. I don't have a strong opinion on the matter, really, and I think it's cool that my friend stands by his principles. But that cat (and maybe it's just that particular cat, I don't know) is MEAN. Or, rather, he has spells of insane meanness. He gets "hormonal" (that's what my friend says) and becomes extremely aggressive and easily agitated. Just somebody standing up too quickly can set him off...
I was about to ask you if your friend was male. For some reason guys have a thing about deballing. The aggression and the spraying* is another reason to get the cat neutered.


*And the pee odor will be a lot less pungent.
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Old 6th June 2019, 01:06 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
I was about to ask you if your friend was male. For some reason guys have a thing about deballing. The aggression and the spraying* is another reason to get the cat neutered.


*And the pee odor will be a lot less pungent.
Oh my lord, you would not believe how much certain areas of his house smelled like cat piss. It would just bowl you over. Smarts the eyes.

He'd sort of get it out, then the cat would spray again. They have favorite spots they mark, or something.
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Old 6th June 2019, 01:20 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
FTFY

Yes I had to google if that was a an adverb for catty.
Never doubt yourself on adverbs! You are free to make them of any word you choose. People will know what you mean which proves it's a real word! *beams buffaloesqueishly*
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Old 6th June 2019, 01:27 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Now you could claim "My cat is always an indoor cat", but there is no guarantee that your cat will not be able to escape the house at some point.
For me it's more than a claim. My cats are always indoor cats. We've had 2 cats at a time for 25 years, and there has been exactly one escape ever, that lasted an hour or two. Literally, one hour of outside in 50 cat years. In the summer, they sit on a balcony but not at ground level.

Needing claws to fight another animal where I live is about 100th on the list of escaped-cat danger, behind falling from a great height, being killed in traffic or by landscapers / construction workers, and maybe being swooped up by a hawk.
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Old 6th June 2019, 01:30 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
BBC News: Cat declawing - Should it be banned, and why does it happen in the US?

"New York might become the first US state to ban cat declawing.

In a bipartisan move on Tuesday, lawmakers voted to make the procedure illegal, except where it is medically necessary for the cat.

The governor, Andrew Cuomo, needs to review and sign the bill before it becomes law.

Critics say cat declawing - which involves cutting off a segment of the bone attached to the claw - is "barbaric and inhumane".

But the New York Veterinary Medical Society has argued that it should still be an option when otherwise the cat might be abandoned or put down.

Cat declawing is already illegal in many countries in Europe, including the UK, as well as Brazil, Israel, Australia and New Zealand."

One down, 49 to go...
Good for New York. Hopefully the rest of the US will join the civilised world on this issue soon.
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Old 6th June 2019, 01:34 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
//Devil's Advocate, Devil's Advocate//

Okay by why use the most evasive version of that surgery? Spaying and Neutering is equivalent to castration or a full hysterectomy when something equivalent to a vasectomy or tubal ligation would accomplish the "Prevent over population" thing exactly as well.
Because the organs in a cat are very small indeed, relative to a human, and hard to work on? But then there's more - removal of the testes or ovaries in a human can reduce/destroy the sex drive, which might be considered a bad thing. In a cat it might be seen as a bonus.
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Old 6th June 2019, 01:44 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I don't regret anything. I meant exactly what I said: domestic cats aren't indigenous to North America and so they're not supposed to be left outside unsupervised.
"Supposed" yet again? Who says they aren't "supposed" to be left outside unsupervised? Who is the authority on this subject that does the supposing? Afaics, so far, it's you alone.

Olives and privet aren't indigenous (eta: to the US, and other places) - the list is huge, ranging from plants to mammals. Domestic dogs aren't indigenous (eta: to the US and other places). Please don't let your dogs out into the yard!
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Last edited by GlennB; 6th June 2019 at 02:39 PM.
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Old 6th June 2019, 01:47 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I have a friend who has an un-neutered male cat. I don't have a strong opinion on the matter, really, and I think it's cool that my friend stands by his principles. But that cat (and maybe it's just that particular cat, I don't know) is MEAN. Or, rather, he has spells of insane meanness. He gets "hormonal" (that's what my friend says) and becomes extremely aggressive and easily agitated. Just somebody standing up too quickly can set him off.

He actually attacked me once when I was house-sitting. I had to shut myself in the bathroom until he calmed down, and I was covered in pretty gnarly scratches. I felt ridiculous fleeing from a vicious house cat, but that's what had to happen. He posted outside the door doing these low, threatening "mrrrrooowwwlllls," and any time I tried to open the door, he'd lunge again. He didn't go away for ages.

I guess that's probably not the case with all cats.

Sorry, but that was no cat ...





Not to blame-the-victim, but you shoulda left the chain on him.
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Old 6th June 2019, 01:49 PM   #75
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Most cat owners have different reasons for spaying than for neutering cats and dogs.

Pet owners don't usually spay their own dog or cat for population control. It's more that they don't want to be inconvenienced with puppies or kittens from their own animals.

Pet owners neuter for behavior issues more than population of birth control. Male dogs and cats are supposed to have better temperament and its supposed to reduce marking in both species.

Animal control departments and agencies are concerned about population control, but that's not the motive of pet owners.

As for declawing, both of mine are declawed. But you can clip the nails (which some cats hate) or you can get tips that glue onto the nails so they aren't sharp.
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Old 6th June 2019, 01:57 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
There are so many threads right now about the ethics of various medical practices. I wonder, is it okay to euthanize a cat if it requests it? What if the cat desires a sex change? Does either answer change if the cat is an illegal immigrant, or a Russian spy whale? If the cat transitions to female will Biden pet it more? If it's traumatized by Biden and doesn't have claws to scratch him with, could the cat request Biden be euthanized?
Is it wrong to hope Biden grabs a pussy?
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Old 6th June 2019, 02:32 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Letting a cat outside is the equivalent of global warming.
It's an analogy. The point is not the equivalence, but the similarities; in this case the logic. You could make this a lot easier if you spelled out your own points vis-à-vis invasive species, if you think I'm misrepresenting you.

Quote:
You're right! I have done nothing but attack! attack! attack! I need to get myself under control. I'll be back when my meds kick in.
Anything that allows you to avoid discussing the actual points, I guess.

Quote:
Which you seem to think trumps the observations by vets of post op cats.
Who said it trumps anything? You seem to be operating under quite a few unwarranted assumptions, here. It is entirely possible to disagree with a professional without your opinion "trumping" theirs. I'm not even sure you know what point you're trying to make, here.
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Old 6th June 2019, 02:35 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
"Supposed" yet again?
Yes, it's shocking, I know, that in an explanation of what I mean by "supposed", I would actually use the word again! Or that I'd continue to use it after I explained what it meant.

Quote:
Who says they aren't "supposed" to be left outside unsupervised?
I do. It's my opinion. It's also the law where I live. It's common sense, in a way: Why would you want to let an unsupervised, clawed predator roam about where it can kill wildlife, damage property, hurt children or get hit by cars or cyclists? Keep your pets under your control at all times.

Quote:
Who is the authority on this subject that does the supposing? Afaics, so far, it's you alone.
You're the only one here claiming that this word requires an authority. This is your fantasy, not mine, so you don't get to demand that I abide by it. How about you check a dictionary, before you go on rants about how people mean something different than they say they mean?
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Old 6th June 2019, 02:50 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
//Devil's Advocate, Devil's Advocate//



Okay by why use the most evasive version of that surgery? Spaying and Neutering is equivalent to castration or a full hysterectomy when something equivalent to a vasectomy or tubal ligation would accomplish the "Prevent over population" thing exactly as well.
Can such procedures be done on such small creatures as cats?
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Old 6th June 2019, 03:02 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Can such procedures be done on such small creatures as cats?
I've been trying all afternoon but am meeting with success only three times out of ten, on average. Maybe if I gave them anesthesia it would be easier?
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