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Old 7th June 2019, 10:53 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I thought it was toxoplasmosis, but it was a while ago and I may have been slightly distracted what with my retina ripping. They did an HIV test and I may just have a mental association there.
Injuries seem to distract a person from absorbing details. Understandable mistake. I hope your retina and eyesight are ok now.
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Old 7th June 2019, 10:55 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
On the first part of that, as vet and a cat-lover I can say with confidence that they'd far prefer to lose their balls. I do know of people who have objections to the "sexual mutilation" of puppies and kittens, but they're regarded as fruitloops. I think it's projection, myself. In later life castrated tomcats are so obviously happier than entire ones that even cat breeders have their prize stud toms castrated when they're about eight or nine.




Yes, I think it would. They're so essential to "being a cat" that I don't think you've bred a cat that way, you've bred a congenitally crippled animal that's only a bit like a cat.
Isn't that a contradiction? At first you're in favor of fundamental alteration to the cat for the sake of its own happiness, and then you're against an alteration to a cat that would be against what you consider to be the essential nature of a cat. But what makes you think being happy is a natural state for a cat? It's a desirable good for humans, but it seems like projection to assume happiness is more a natural state for a cat than reproduction is. From a biological point of view the purpose of cats is to make more cats.
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Old 7th June 2019, 10:56 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
You couldn't even get it that way. By far the commonest way of getting toxoplasmosis is by eating undercooked meat. About half the population of France is seropositive for toxoplasma. The next most common way of getting it (and it's trailing way behind) is gardening with bare hands and then not washing your hands afterwards. Strikingly, it's usually the people who don't own a cat who are affected, possibly because the cats are territory-marking and that tends to go on at the periphary of their territories.
Also, licking one's eyelids is a talent very few humans possess .
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Old 7th June 2019, 10:58 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
Ah, Bengals, surely one of the finest looking breeds. Part of me would love a Bengal and then the part that's always had moggies and never paid for a cat kicks in. If I were ever to buy a pedigree though, Bengal is top of the list (it's a relatively short list, only others would be Siamese, Burmese and maybe Russian Blue).

Fair point on the US I guess - though I'd like to think a decent cat would be able to hold its own / get away quickly enough...one of my cats had no problems seeing off foxes or even much larger dogs (chased a neighbours dog that had got out, out of our garden, back into its own garden, into its house and had it trapped in the corner of their kitchen - now that's a cat!).

Jori is a Bengal. For the saga of the missing pet, search for his name in thread titles in Community. I was like you, I'd always had moggies, but after failing to connect with any of the cats in the rescue cattery I had a rush of blood to the brain one night and googled Bengal kittens for sale. Shimmeringstar Jormungand was the result.

You know the thing they say about becoming a parent? That you never sleep well again, from "is he still breathing" to "he's got the car and he hasn't come home yet"? That.
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Old 7th June 2019, 11:05 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Isn't that a contradiction? At first you're in favor of fundamental alteration to the cat for the sake of its own happiness, and then you're against an alteration to a cat that would be against what you consider to be the essential nature of a cat. But what makes you think being happy is a natural state for a cat? It's a desirable good for humans, but it seems like projection to assume happiness is more a natural state for a cat than reproduction is. From a biological point of view the purpose of cats is to make more cats.

You know, there's a reason the archetypical name for a cat is "Felix".
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Old 7th June 2019, 11:14 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
You know, there's a reason the archetypical name for a cat is "Felix".
Because two unrelated Latin words start with the same syllable?

The ancient Egyptians were the ones who domesticated the cat. Their cat god Bast is the first syllable of the word "bastard". I think that's more aligned to the inner nature of our most beloved pet animal.
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Old 7th June 2019, 11:44 AM   #167
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My doctors here always made a huge deal about toxoplasmosis here when I was pregnant and owned a cat. They told me I should never change the litterbox, and should avoid even handling the animals 'til after the babies were born.
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Old 7th June 2019, 11:45 AM   #168
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Also even though I was mistaken about the actual germ the fact is cats use their tongues for toilet paper! And people let them lick them? Gross.
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Old 7th June 2019, 12:55 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Which is irrelevant to my point. The context is completely different.

Regardless, my opinion is the same: you should keep your pets under control at all times. Of course, if you have a fenced farmland, you can let a dog roam free to take care of cattle or whatnot.

Dogs are not much good for keeping rodents and reptiles out of your barn.

And if your farmland is fenced in there isn't all that much use for herd dogs.
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Old 7th June 2019, 12:57 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
<snip>

Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
Bolding mine...

Isn't declawing a relatively recent development. The main purpose of 'keeping' cats was to keep mice / rats etc down. They wouldn't be much use for that declawed.
Oh, if you go back even further, sure. No doubt about that.

How far back?

My sister still has barn cats. They aren't particularly uncommon.
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Old 7th June 2019, 01:03 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
We were sitting five of the little buggers last weekend (plus an elderly and unwell dog).
At least there were supposed to be five of them, we never found them together. It might be a scam to get more food....

Out of five cats it is almost certain that at least one of them is going to be almost pathologically wary of strangers.

While the late Mrs. qg was on home hospice we would have an assortment of regular visitors. One of our two cats was inspecting their bags and purses and begging for pats and caresses within minutes of their arrive. Only a couple of them ever got to see even so much as a glimpse of the other cat.

And that was when she was trying to sneak by to get to a better place to hide.
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Old 7th June 2019, 03:43 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
You may wish to deny the parallel, to support your beliefs, but it is there. As is the one with dogs.
Again, only for those who over-simplify the issue. You can't nullify a point by finding something that shares a single characteristic with what's being discussed and declaring that they must be treated the same, ignoring any other potential factor.

As I said: cats need teeth to eat, and therefore to stay alive. I can't believe I have to explain this to grown adults.

Quote:
Scratching posts were commercially available in the 1930s.
And?

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Yeah, humans should totally have the "right" to mutilate their pets.
Well, posters sure have the right to twist words.

Do you oppose spaying and neutering as well? Of course you don't.

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WTF...?!
WTF what? Cats don't have hands. And without claws they can manipulate object just as well.

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Why not? They do on most other continents
That's a pretty stupid argument. Maybe we should just introduce every species everywhere and just see what happens, giggling all the way through.

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There's plenty of evidence that neutering does not cause any long-term harm to cats in the way that declawing can.
What long-term harm are you talking about?
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Old 7th June 2019, 03:46 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Dogs are not much good for keeping rodents and reptiles out of your barn.
Which is why I mentioned shepherding.

As I said numerous times before: if you want to keep the claws and let them outside on your farm or whatever, fine. But in the city the situation is different, and letting cats roam outside unsupervised is a pretty bad idea. So for those who keep the cat inside, I'm against removing the declawing option.
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Old 7th June 2019, 05:09 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Because two unrelated Latin words start with the same syllable?

The ancient Egyptians were the ones who domesticated the cat. Their cat god Bast is the first syllable of the word "bastard". I think that's more aligned to the inner nature of our most beloved pet animal.

Because it means "happy". Like "Fido" means "faithful". The archetypical names using the archetypical qualities of the animal.
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Old 7th June 2019, 05:12 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Because it means "happy". Like "Fido" means "faithful". The archetypical names using the archetypical qualities of the animal.
You're kidding, right?

You don't seriously believe this etymological Just So Story. Do you?
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Old 7th June 2019, 05:14 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
My doctors here always made a huge deal about toxoplasmosis here when I was pregnant and owned a cat. They told me I should never change the litterbox, and should avoid even handling the animals 'til after the babies were born.

That's a bit of an over-reaction, but it's as well to be safe. In fact there is no danger from handling the cat itself, or from handling faeces less than 24 hours old. The biggest dangers remain undercooked meat and gardening in fact.

The straight-up advice is don't clean the litter tray if you have someone else who can do it, but if you have to do it adopt a policy of completely emptying the thing every 24 hours, wash and disinfect it, and wear rubber gloves while you do it. And don't eat rare steak and don't work in the garden. If you have to do gardening, wear gloves.

If you want to know if your cat is still a risk, have his toxoplasma antibody checked. If he's seropositive then his oocyst-shedding days are past and you can more or less relax. If he's seronegative he's still naive and may pick the parasite up at any time, so be strict with your precautions.
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Old 7th June 2019, 05:16 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
As I said: cats need teeth to eat, and therefore to stay alive. I can't believe I have to explain this to grown adults.

Actually that's not true. Elderly cats (and dogs) that have lost all their teeth to periodontal disease can eat canned or sachet wet food perfectly easily. Happens all the time.
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Old 7th June 2019, 05:18 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You're kidding, right?

You don't seriously believe this etymological Just So Story. Do you?

It was a slightly tongue-in-cheek point, but yes, the archetypical "cat name" is the Latin word for happy, just as the archetypical "dog name" is the Latin word for faithful. The words describe how the animals were typically regarded.
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Old 7th June 2019, 05:26 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Actually that's not true. Elderly cats (and dogs) that have lost all their teeth to periodontal disease can eat canned or sachet wet food perfectly easily. Happens all the time.
Yeah, ok. They _can_ eat, but it's damned difficult. For indoor cats, declawing doesn't hamper their activities.
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Old 7th June 2019, 05:32 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Actually that's not true. Elderly cats (and dogs) that have lost all their teeth to periodontal disease can eat canned or sachet wet food perfectly easily. Happens all the time.
One of ours, just nine, has lost at least half of hers due to resorption. She's currently wolfing down some wet food, but still eats the dry stuff. Cats don't actually chew their food much.
ETA: Better link.
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Old 7th June 2019, 05:34 PM   #181
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I know some of them can manage dry food too, but I wouldn't recommend only feeding a toothless cat on dry food.
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Old 7th June 2019, 05:35 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah, ok. They _can_ eat, but it's damned difficult. For indoor cats, declawing doesn't hamper their activities.

Will we just cut off your fingers and see how you get on? I repeat, the pain of this actually rewires kittens' brains and makes them susceptible to very bad reactions to other painful stimuli in the future. It's horrendously cruel.
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Old 7th June 2019, 05:55 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It was a slightly tongue-in-cheek point, but yes, the archetypical "cat name" is the Latin word for happy, just as the archetypical "dog name" is the Latin word for faithful. The words describe how the animals were typically regarded.
Latin felinus from feles meaning "cat" is not related to felicis meaning "fortunate". The first syllable coinciding no doubt inspired people to name their cats Felix as a pun, but they are not etymologically related to each other.
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Old 7th June 2019, 10:15 PM   #184
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Almost 200 posts and not a single picture of a feline???

This thread needs to be kittened.
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Old 7th June 2019, 11:50 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah, ok. They _can_ eat, but it's damned difficult. For indoor cats, declawing doesn't hamper their activities.
As I've already mentioned they don't need the canines, and it's the canines that hurt. In the wild those teeth are used for grabbing and ripping, which are irrelevant to a domestic cat's eating ability. Cats chew their food (though it more resembles chopping) with the molars and premolars.

Perhaps you should think a little, and maybe do a little reading, before berating people for their ignorance?
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Old 8th June 2019, 12:02 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Almost 200 posts and not a single picture of a feline???

This thread needs to be kittened.
Maybe just the olive branch.

Tough ****, cat Haterz. NY doesn't like dog people! Get over it!



There. That should do it.
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Old 8th June 2019, 01:06 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Also even though I was mistaken about the actual germ the fact is cats use their tongues for toilet paper! And people let them lick them? Gross.
I have been licked by a cat but it's not a common occurrence and it's usually my trousers as it's sitting on my lap having a wash and starts to socialise it (cats often wash each other). Cats are much more likely to nuzzle you than lick you, though even that is not necessarily a sign of affection - they have scent glands in their checks so are probably just marking you as belonging to them*.

Dogs are much more associated with licking their owners. Much, much more - and they also lick their arses. I share your revulsion about them licking human faces but lots of people like it - as long as they don't expect me to put up with it then that's their choice.

If you held one of my cats up to your face then you're much more likely to get an interesting scar!

*One of my cats had a really efficient way of marking territory that way, used to come for a walk with us, drop down into the road alongside the pavement kerb, crouch so the side of her mouth was level with and touching the top of the kerb and then zoom down the road, scenting the whole length.
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Old 8th June 2019, 01:13 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You're kidding, right?

You don't seriously believe this etymological Just So Story. Do you?
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Latin felinus from feles meaning "cat" is not related to felicis meaning "fortunate". The first syllable coinciding no doubt inspired people to name their cats Felix as a pun, but they are not etymologically related to each other.
Seems to me that Rolfe was talking about the name Felix, not the latin genus that relates to cats.

(of the name Felix) :

Felix is a male given name that stems from Latin (fēlix, felicis) and means "happy" or "lucky".
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Old 8th June 2019, 01:33 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Anecdotal evidence: My parents had two of their cats declawed. Both became psychos.
Anecdotally, the cats should have had a calming effect on your parents.
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Old 8th June 2019, 01:44 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Will we just cut off your fingers and see how you get on?
That's nothing but an appeal to emotion.

1) Animals aren't humans.
2) Unlike cats, cutting off my fingers would affect my ability to perform basic tasks.

Quote:
the pain of this actually rewires kittens' brains and makes them susceptible to very bad reactions to other painful stimuli in the future. It's horrendously cruel.
What are you refering to? The pain only lasts for a day or two.

Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Perhaps you should think a little, and maybe do a little reading, before berating people for their ignorance?
If you're refering to "having to tell grown adults these things", that hasn't changed. Cats still need teeth to live, not claws, and I'm not worried about teeth damage contrary to claw damage. I don't see why that's hard to understand.

I'll remind you that I'm not advocating for mandatory declawing; I'm just opposed to the reverse.
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Old 8th June 2019, 02:14 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You know geese have teeth in their tongues? Think what a cat could accomplish with that enhancement!
Too late. Cats already thought of that one, as you would know if your cat had ever decided you need cleaning.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science...ngue-sandpaper
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Old 8th June 2019, 02:24 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Jori is a Bengal. For the saga of the missing pet, search for his name in thread titles in Community. I was like you, I'd always had moggies, but after failing to connect with any of the cats in the rescue cattery I had a rush of blood to the brain one night and googled Bengal kittens for sale. Shimmeringstar Jormungand was the result.

You know the thing they say about becoming a parent? That you never sleep well again, from "is he still breathing" to "he's got the car and he hasn't come home yet"? That.
Ah yes.
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Old 8th June 2019, 02:27 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Out of five cats it is almost certain that at least one of them is going to be almost pathologically wary of strangers.

While the late Mrs. qg was on home hospice we would have an assortment of regular visitors. One of our two cats was inspecting their bags and purses and begging for pats and caresses within minutes of their arrive. Only a couple of them ever got to see even so much as a glimpse of the other cat.

And that was when she was trying to sneak by to get to a better place to hide.
Oh we met the pathologically shy one. She lied to hide under beds, in the hot press, in a chair under the dining table at cetera. Cute little jet black thing.
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Old 8th June 2019, 02:40 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's nothing but an appeal to emotion.

1) Animals aren't humans.
2) Unlike cats, cutting off my fingers would affect my ability to perform basic tasks.
Basic tasks for cats include walking, running and climbing. These are tasks that are much easier to do if you have fingers and toes.

Quote:

If you're refering to "having to tell grown adults these things", that hasn't changed. Cats still need teeth to live, not claws,
Itís been pointed out to you several times that that is not necessarily the case and cats certainly donít need their canines to live even if they do need their other teeth.


Quote:
and I'm not worried about teeth damage contrary to claw damage. I don't see why that's hard to understand.
Well Iím not worried about claw damage and neither are most of the people arguing against you. Should we be basing laws on what worries you?
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Old 8th June 2019, 04:41 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Latin felinus from feles meaning "cat" is not related to felicis meaning "fortunate". The first syllable coinciding no doubt inspired people to name their cats Felix as a pun, but they are not etymologically related to each other.

I didn't say they were. It's got nothing to do with the word "feline", except as you say there may have been a bit of an assonance-"pun" in there. But Fido for a dog doesn't have that aspect and it's the same.

The archetypical name for a cat is the Latin word for "happy", just as the archetypical name for a dog is the Latin word for "faithful". I only pointed it out as an aside when someone said it wasn't part of a cat's nature to be happy. Jeez, talk about dissecting a joke to death?
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Old 8th June 2019, 04:43 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's nothing but an appeal to emotion.

2) Unlike cats, cutting off my fingers would affect my ability to perform basic tasks.

Total lack of awareness about what "basic tasks" are for a cat.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What are you refering to? The pain only lasts for a day or two.

It lasts forever.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Cats still need teeth to live...

No, they really don't, not in a domestic setting.
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Last edited by Rolfe; 8th June 2019 at 04:45 AM.
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Old 8th June 2019, 04:49 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
I have been licked by a cat but it's not a common occurrence...

You maybe need to meet Jori. I get licked to death. I think he sees me as his mutual grooming partner and he wants to lick me in return for me petting him.

The evening I got him back from his two months on the hill he was visibly conflicted. He simultaneously wanted to groom himself to get clean again, howl his happiness to the heavens, and lick me all over. The trouble was, he needed his mouth for all three and couldn't do them all at once, so he sort of rotated them.

This of course was after using his mouth to eat quite a lot of cat food at breakneck speed without any signs of being conflicted about that.
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Old 8th June 2019, 04:59 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
You maybe need to meet Jori. I get licked to death. I think he sees me as his mutual grooming partner and he wants to lick me in return for me petting him.

The evening I got him back from his two months on the hill he was visibly conflicted. He simultaneously wanted to groom himself to get clean again, howl his happiness to the heavens, and lick me all over. The trouble was, he needed his mouth for all three and couldn't do them all at once, so he sort of rotated them.

This of course was after using his mouth to eat quite a lot of cat food at breakneck speed without any signs of being conflicted about that.
One of ours cuddles in (leaches heat) with a paw on each shoulder / wrapped round your neck but doesnít lick your face. I still say itís much more a dog thing.
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Old 8th June 2019, 05:13 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Oh! Sorry I wasn't clear.

No, no one mentioned declawing to me at the shelter or vet. And among all the cat people I know socially, it's considered a dreadful practice.
No, you were clear, I just wasn't concentrating enough!
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Old 8th June 2019, 05:33 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
If you're refering to "having to tell grown adults these things", that hasn't changed. Cats still need teeth to live, not claws, and I'm not worried about teeth damage contrary to claw damage. I don't see why that's hard to understand.
As I understand it, declawing usually only involves the front claws. Defanging would only involve the canines, leaving the cat with all the teeth they need to eat, given that an indoor cat has no use for its fangs. I've explained twice already the manner in which cats chew their food. Was it so hard to understand?

It's the same principle - remove the things that cause damage and/or pain, for the convenience of the human(s) in the house.
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