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Old 12th June 2019, 05:55 AM   #241
Rolfe
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Given my experience of having lived with multiple cats in the past, all of whom very much made use of access to the world outside, and none of them ever had an abscess, I'm surprised it was so common for yours.

Abscesses are quite common, as a result of fighting, but neutered cats are less likely to get involved. Having said that though, common as in vets see several a week, not that individual cats will get them frequently. Rolfe had one fight abscess not long after I got him, then never again. I think he was so big and imposing that potential rivals just found a reason to Be Somewhere Else. Caramel never had one at all - he was a competent wee bruiser and frankly the fur that was flying was always from the other guy.

Jori is interesting. He gets beat up on a regular basis, but the bites - which are typical cat-fight injuries - never blow up into abscesses. I think he must have an immune system that can take on anything, even if he can't take on anything with tooth and claw.
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Old 12th June 2019, 06:06 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Given my experience of having lived with multiple cats in the past, all of whom very much made use of access to the world outside, and none of them ever had an abscess, I'm surprised it was so common for yours.

Depends on the cat.

I too have lived with many cats, even back in the days when letting them out was routine.

Most were abscess free, like you experienced. Some managed to develop one or two.

One was a scrapper, and managed to develop them with enough frequency that we ultimately learned to treat them ourselves. Somewhat to the vet's relief, since the cat (big, chesty, lean, and very well muscled for a cat) wasn't a very cooperative patient.

I suspect it had something to do with his fighting style which, where other cats were concerned, seemed largely to involve shoving his head into the other cat's mouth while holding tightly with his front legs and trying to disembowel them with his back ones.

It appeared to have been a fairly successful strategy, aside from the damage to his head and ears. Other cats rarely went back for a second go-round.
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Old 12th June 2019, 06:34 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Incredible how intolerant of other views people are here. Not only do you disagree with this poster, you would ban them from having a pet!
As would I. The poster has provided ample evidence that they have little concern for the welfare of an animal. When a person takes on a pet the animal's welfare should be second in importance only to the humans in the home and well above that of any inanimate objects.
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Old 12th June 2019, 06:37 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
As would I. The poster has provided ample evidence that they have little concern for the welfare of an animal.
He has done no such thing, and that's the problem. Debarking is not a healthcare issue, and I've been assured here that de-fanging isn't either. So the only question is about the declawing.
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Old 12th June 2019, 06:40 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I suspect it had something to do with his fighting style which, where other cats were concerned, seemed largely to involve shoving his head into the other cat's mouth while holding tightly with his front legs and trying to disembowel them with his back ones.
This is what could revitalize MMA!
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Old 12th June 2019, 08:11 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I live in London. Lots of cars, dogs, and foxes. There's even a railway line at the end of my street. Plenty of cats around for years, including some who have been here since we moved in nine years ago.

Of course, it is the case that cats that aren't allowed out don't have the skills to survive if they do get out.
Absolutely *everyone* I've known who let their cat outside around here has had the cat killed by one of the packs of stray dogs. In other areas of the city, it's usually a car that gets them (there's basically no public transportation in Memphis.)

In a nicer part of the city where there aren't packs of strays roaming around, I know of exactly one cat who was allowed outside and made it to old age (but the cat's sibling was hit by a car around age 4, so the family was batting 50/50. And that's the BEST case in the city I've heard of.)
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Old 12th June 2019, 08:21 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
He has done no such thing, and that's the problem. Debarking is not a healthcare issue, and I've been assured here that de-fanging isn't either. So the only question is about the declawing.
Dogs generally only excessively bark when they're extremely unhappy, though. Make your dog happy, and the excessive barking will usually be a non-issue.

https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/Li...kgrounder.aspx
Quote:
Excessive barking is commonly associated with an underlying welfare issue with the dog. Reasons for excessive barking may include poor training, boredom, social isolation, response to external stimuli, territorial protection, and behavioral problems, including anxiety, compulsive disorder and separation anxiety.3,5,9 Devocalization reduces the noise associated with barking, but not the motivation or behavior.
Quote:
In addition to the AVMA, many veterinary organizations including the American Animal Hospital Association20 and the Canadian Veterinary Medical Association21 oppose non-therapeutic devocalization of dogs except after behavioral modifications and management methods have failed and as a final alternative to relinquishment or euthanasia. Under the United Kingdom’s Animal Welfare Act (2006), "carrying out of a procedure which involves interference with the sensitive tissues or bone structure of the animal, otherwise than for the purpose of its medical treatment” is an offense.22 The European Convention for the Protection of Pet Animals lists devocalization under the list of surgical operations that "for the purpose of modifying the appearance of a pet animal or for other non-curative purposes shall be prohibited."23

The British Veterinary Association Animal Welfare Foundation (BVAAWF)/Fund for the Replacement of Animals in Medical Experiments (FRAME)/Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (RSPCA)/Universities Federation for Animal Welfare (UFAW) Joint Working Group on Refinement (dog husbandry and care) view debarking as unacceptable and describe many other ways to reduce noise in kennels.18

There are currently four states that have laws prohibiting devocalization of dogs under certain circumstances.
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Old 12th June 2019, 08:23 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
He has done no such thing, and that's the problem. Debarking is not a healthcare issue, ...
Did somebody say that?

"Long-term risks of debarking include the formation of excessive scar tissue in the area which can cause a dog to have chronic coughing, difficulty breathing, noisy breathing, and exercise intolerance. These conditions may require more surgery."

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
... and I've been assured here that de-fanging isn't either. So the only question is about the declawing.
I mentioned de-fanging, but only to condemn it as a selfish move made purely for the benefit of the owner.

All surgery is a health care issue.
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Old 12th June 2019, 08:47 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Dogs generally only excessively bark when they're extremely unhappy, though. Make your dog happy, and the excessive barking will usually be a non-issue.
Well, that's not quite true, is it? Quite a few breeds of dog are known to be quite barky. I've not seen it suggested that those dog breeds are less happy.

Besides, a warning or alarm is not related to happiness.
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Old 12th June 2019, 08:48 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Did somebody say that?

"Long-term risks of debarking include the formation of excessive scar tissue in the area which can cause a dog to have chronic coughing, difficulty breathing, noisy breathing, and exercise intolerance. These conditions may require more surgery."
Ok, what's the source for that?

Quote:
I mentioned de-fanging, but only to condemn it as a selfish move made purely for the benefit of the owner.
Your point included the fact that the cat didn't need the canines to eat.

Quote:
All surgery is a health care issue.
Well, I'll give you a technically right internet point on that.
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Old 12th June 2019, 08:57 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, that's not quite true, is it? Quite a few breeds of dog are known to be quite barky. I've not seen it suggested that those dog breeds are less happy.

Besides, a warning or alarm is not related to happiness.
There are "yappy little dogs" who bork for a minute when they encounter a stranger, but that's not what people get dogs debarked for. It's usually outside dogs who want ot be inside dogs who get debarked, in my limited experience.
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Old 12th June 2019, 08:59 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
There are "yappy little dogs" who bork for a minute when they encounter a stranger, but that's not what people get dogs debarked for. It's usually outside dogs who want ot be inside dogs who get debarked, in my limited experience.
Well I can't speak for people's reasons for doing so. Someone might only want to limit noise in an appartment building, etc. I was only addressing the actual fact of dogs barking.
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Old 12th June 2019, 09:01 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Ok, what's the source for that?
My American Veterinary Medical Association link from my last post says:

Quote:
One study cited that 14% of dogs experienced scarring following oral ventriculodectomy, performed for therapeutic reasons.1 Clinical signs resulting from scar formation (laryngeal webbing) include exercise intolerance, dyspnea (respiratory distress), stridor (noisy breathing), collapse and heat intolerance;11 affected dogs require further surgical intervention to ameliorate the problem. In a retrospective study of dogs that underwent therapeutic bilateral ventriculocordectomy for laryngeal paralysis, 24% required revision surgery
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Old 12th June 2019, 09:01 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
My American Veterinary Medical Association link from my last post says:
Thank you.
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Old 12th June 2019, 09:02 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Ok, what's the source for that?
doghealth.com. The first reference I found, though there are many more, such as

The Humane Society

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Your point included the fact that the cat didn't need the canines to eat.
Mostly to counter your claim that teeth are essential for a cat to eat, a claim that's wrong even for totally toothless cats. It also made the point that with no canines a cat's bite is of little consequence, which would solve bitey-cat syndrome for the owner's benefit just as declawing solves scratching-cat syndrome.

Added: The operations under discussion are performed under general anaesthetic, which in itself is a serious matter. That was the main thrust of my point, not that "any old procedure is a risk", which seems to be how you've taken it with your snarky "technically right" point. My mistake for not making that clear.
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Old 12th June 2019, 09:04 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well I can't speak for people's reasons for doing so. Someone might only want to limit noise in an appartment building, etc. I was only addressing the actual fact of dogs barking.
It *might* be justified if you're in an apartment and have a dog who barks all day while you're gone, although I'd strongly encourage taking every other measure imaginable first to see if anything worked.
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Old 12th June 2019, 09:26 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It *might* be justified if you're in an apartment and have a dog who barks all day while you're gone, although I'd strongly encourage taking every other measure imaginable first to see if anything worked.
My solution is to not have a dog in an appartment building. Hence why I favour rodents and lagomorphs.
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Old 12th June 2019, 09:28 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Mostly to counter your claim that teeth are essential for a cat to eat, a claim that's wrong even for totally toothless cats.
It was only 'wrong' in a completely technical, "gotcha" sense.

Quote:
It also made the point that with no canines a cat's bite is of little consequence, which would solve bitey-cat syndrome for the owner's benefit just as declawing solves scratching-cat syndrome.
True.

Quote:
Added: The operations under discussion are performed under general anaesthetic, which in itself is a serious matter.
Also true.

In any case, Kelly's point about other long-term effects of declawing, such as back problems, is by far the best argument brought forth by the con side of the discussion.
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Old 12th June 2019, 09:41 AM   #259
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The most recent statistic I heard (at a course some years ago so it may be a bit better now) was 1 in 400 risk of anaesthetic death for a cat. I've never had it happen to me but I wasn't in general practice for very long. I've never felt nervous when one of my cats was having an anaesthetic and none of them had any adverse effects. But still, that number is quite scary.
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Old 12th June 2019, 09:47 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The most recent statistic I heard (at a course some years ago so it may be a bit better now) was 1 in 400 risk of anaesthetic death for a cat. I've never had it happen to me but I wasn't in general practice for very long. I've never felt nervous when one of my cats was having an anaesthetic and none of them had any adverse effects. But still, that number is quite scary.
Yeah, when I got my rabbit neutered I was told that there was a small but non-zero chance of death. Not a pleasant waiting period.
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Old 12th June 2019, 09:51 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah, when I got my rabbit neutered I was told that there was a small but non-zero chance of death. Not a pleasant waiting period.
Plus the nonzero possibility the rabbit might attempt to kill you in revenge for the neutering. How long a wait afterward until you felt safe?
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Old 12th June 2019, 09:58 AM   #262
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Put duc tape on the furniture where the cat scratches, you can remove it when company comes. If the wife or husband doesn't object.

I like to build scratching posts and such. A flat piece of plywood covered with carpet remnant can be used to protect the furniture, just lean it up against the vulnerable spot and add a little catnip.

The little beasts are trainable a little bit.

The cat my parents had, they thought he was a good little beast and didn't damage anything, till they moved a couch and saw what he had done to the curtains behind the couch.
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Old 12th June 2019, 09:58 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
There are "yappy little dogs" who bork for a minute when they encounter a stranger, but that's not what people get dogs debarked for. It's usually outside dogs who want ot be inside dogs who get debarked, in my limited experience.
And the reason those dogs behave in such a way is usually because they have not been treated as dogs. Whether it's the smallest or largest dog if you don't raise them correctly they will misbehave.
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Old 12th June 2019, 10:00 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
Put duc tape on the furniture where the cat scratches, you can remove it when company comes. If the wife or husband doesn't object.

I like to build scratching posts and such. A flat piece of plywood covered with carpet remnant can be used to protect the furniture, just lean it up against the vulnerable spot and add a little catnip.

The little beasts are trainable a little bit.

The cat my parents had, they thought he was a good little beast and didn't damage anything, till they moved a couch and saw what he had done to the curtains behind the couch.
Double sided sticky tape ala Blue Peter is very effective.
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Old 12th June 2019, 10:03 AM   #265
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The vets told us our cat abcesses were mostly due to being bitten by prey. The caught shrews a lot. They would eat, or partially eat, the mice but not the shrews. They just deposited those on the doorstep. And then there were the snakes....
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Old 12th June 2019, 10:41 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Plus the nonzero possibility the rabbit might attempt to kill you in revenge for the neutering. How long a wait afterward until you felt safe?
Considering that after two nights spent at the vet, when he saw us again he looked like he suddenly realised we weren't going to abandon him and he was all over us, essentially zero seconds.
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Old 12th June 2019, 11:06 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Considering that after two nights spent at the vet, when he saw us again he looked like he suddenly realised we weren't going to abandon him and he was all over us, essentially zero seconds.
Biding his time, lulling suspicion.
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Old 12th June 2019, 11:13 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Biding his time, lulling suspicion.
Yeah, I expected that from you.

However, I'm pretty sure that my rabbit has no intention of hurti---

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Old 12th June 2019, 11:17 AM   #269
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I've read "Bunnicula", I know what rabbits are capable of. I know what of rabbits are capable. Of the capabilities of rabbits I am knowing. It is known of the capability of rabbits which I know.
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Old 12th June 2019, 11:27 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I've read "Bunnicula", I know what rabbits are capable of. I know what of rabbits are capable.
I've seen "Monty Python and the Holy Grail", I know what rabbits are capable of.

On a more serious note, the other day I saw a video of a rabbit who managed to escape two cheetas. Cheetas!
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Old 12th June 2019, 01:14 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
He has done no such thing, and that's the problem. Debarking is not a healthcare issue, and I've been assured here that de-fanging isn't either. So the only question is about the declawing.
Why did you bring up healthcare? I said nothing about it.
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Old 12th June 2019, 01:51 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
You should not be allowed pets of any kind.
You have convinced me. I shall take her to the shelter to be euthanized.

Might I still be allowed to contract-kill animals and eat portions of their corpses? Please?
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Old 12th June 2019, 02:02 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
You have convinced me. I shall take her to the shelter to be euthanized.

Might I still be allowed to contract-kill animals and eat portions of their corpses? Please?
You have to kill them yourself and eat at least 75% of the corpse.
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Old 12th June 2019, 02:05 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You have to kill them yourself and eat at least 75% of the corpse.
Shall I have them anesthetized first? I hear that is prohibitively dangerous.
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Old 12th June 2019, 02:20 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Shall I have them anesthetized first? I hear that is prohibitively dangerous.
Where did you hear that?
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Old 12th June 2019, 02:24 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Shall I have them anesthetized first? I hear that is prohibitively dangerous.
Silly. If you anesthetize an animal before you eat it you'll fall asleep during the meal!
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Old 12th June 2019, 02:26 PM   #277
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#259
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Old 12th June 2019, 02:35 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
#259
Beautifully constructed strawman you have there. Please anaesthetise it before dismantling.
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Old 12th June 2019, 03:32 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The most recent statistic I heard (at a course some years ago so it may be a bit better now) was 1 in 400 risk of anaesthetic death for a cat. I've never had it happen to me but I wasn't in general practice for very long. I've never felt nervous when one of my cats was having an anaesthetic and none of them had any adverse effects. But still, that number is quite scary.
Either the anesthetic or the painkiller given to my cat killed him when I had him neutered.

It still hurts to think about it.
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Old 12th June 2019, 03:34 PM   #280
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Oh, that's awful. I know the statistics, but every one is a tragedy for someone.
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