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Tags Australia history , Australia incidents , Australia issues , William Slim

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Old 6th June 2019, 09:11 PM   #1
arthwollipot
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Major road to be renamed

A bit of local news.

William Slim Drive to be renamed following Government review into place names

Quote:
After several months of reviewing place names in the ACT, William Slim Drive is set to be renamed “to ensure our public place naming does not cause ongoing hurt to Canberrans,” the ACT Government said.

Following an ACT Legislative Assembly review into place names in the ACT and in particular Haig Park and William Slim Drive, the ACT Government will rename the busy Belconnen road but Haig Park will retain its name despite its namesake’s use of questionable war tactics during the First World War.

Last year, concerns were raised about William Slim Drive which was named after Australia’s 13th Governor-General who has been accused of committing sexual abuse against children.
So what do you think? Should things be renamed if the people they were named after are discovered to have been terrible people?
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Old 6th June 2019, 09:16 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
A bit of local news.

William Slim Drive to be renamed following Government review into place names



So what do you think? Should things be renamed if the people they were named after are discovered to have been terrible people?
Change the name to Virginia Slim Drive and have billboards erected every few kilometres in her honour.
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Old 6th June 2019, 09:22 PM   #3
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Yes.
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Old 6th June 2019, 09:22 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
A bit of local news.

William Slim Drive to be renamed following Government review into place names



So what do you think? Should things be renamed if the people they were named after are discovered to have been terrible people?

What did they do to warrant having something named after them in the first place?
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Old 6th June 2019, 09:25 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
What did they do to warrant having something named after them in the first place?
Tells you in the article. Tells you even in the excerpt I quoted. He was Australia's 13th Governor General.
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Old 6th June 2019, 09:36 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Tells you in the article. Tells you even in the excerpt I quoted. He was Australia's 13th Governor General.

I wasn't asking about the specific instance, but the more general question which followed.

In the specific case was he a really, really great Governor General, or did he just get the road named after him because he had the title?
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Old 6th June 2019, 09:43 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I wasn't asking about the specific instance, but the more general question which followed.

In the specific case was he a really, really great Governor General, or did he just get the road named after him because he had the title?

As a follow-up, I read his bio in Wiki. Highly respected war hero.

How does that weigh against the child molesting allegations?

Frankly, I don't have a ready answer. I'm willing to be persuaded either way.
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Old 6th June 2019, 09:47 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
As a follow-up, I read his bio in Wiki. Highly respected war hero.

How does that weigh against the child molesting allegations?

Frankly, I don't have a ready answer. I'm willing to be persuaded either way.
Perhaps we should deploy child molesters to active service for redemption?
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Old 6th June 2019, 09:59 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I wasn't asking about the specific instance, but the more general question which followed.

In the specific case was he a really, really great Governor General, or did he just get the road named after him because he had the title?
Being Governor General is sufficient reason to have a road in Canberra named after you. Most of our original suburbs are named after Prime Ministers, though we ran out of those some time ago and one famously declined the honour.
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Old 6th June 2019, 10:14 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Being Governor General is sufficient reason to have a road in Canberra named after you. Most of our original suburbs are named after Prime Ministers, though we ran out of those some time ago and one famously declined the honour.

Quote:
“For victims, it is incredibly confronting to see an alleged perpetrator being honoured and acknowledged by having things named after them.
Alleged perpetrator?
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Old 6th June 2019, 10:18 PM   #11
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I’ve said this in other similar threads about statues and so on, if you judged every historical figure on today’s standards, no statues would survive. Churchill? Nasty piece of work, sexist, probably racist. Out with you. Every royal, general, admiral and political leader prior to the 20th century? Racists, autocrats, bullies all of you. No statues, no names.

History shouldn’t work like that.
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Old 6th June 2019, 10:22 PM   #12
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I think it's appropriate to draw lines. Each case should be judged on its merits. As noted in the article, William Slim who was allegedly a paedphile didn't make the cut, whereas Field Marshall Haig who was allegedly a war criminal did. It's not like anyone's saying "let's just blanket rename everything that's named after everyone who ever did anything a little bit shady". But some names are over the line.
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Old 6th June 2019, 10:29 PM   #13
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The non-entity politician who is running this campaign outlines her motivation:

Quote:
Ms Cody said that during her 30 plus years as a hairdresser, people often raised with her the hurt they felt over particular place names
Doesn’t matter if it’s a hairdresser, accountant or police officer, this should not be the basis for public policy. What’s next? A fundy MP upset by places named after godless scientists?

There are more important issues ACT MPs should be attending to.
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Old 6th June 2019, 10:29 PM   #14
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Child rape and war crimes do seem a bit shady.
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Old 6th June 2019, 10:36 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I think it's appropriate to draw lines. Each case should be judged on its merits. As noted in the article, William Slim who was allegedly a paedphile didn't make the cut, whereas Field Marshall Haig who was allegedly a war criminal did. It's not like anyone's saying "let's just blanket rename everything that's named after everyone who ever did anything a little bit shady". But some names are over the line.
“Allegedly” the key word. We can’t have post mortem trials, but it looks like we can have post mortem convictions.
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Old 6th June 2019, 10:38 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
The non-entity politician who is running this campaign outlines her motivation:



Doesn’t matter if it’s a hairdresser, accountant or police officer, this should not be the basis for public policy. What’s next? A fundy MP upset by places named after godless scientists?

There are more important issues ACT MPs should be attending to.
Child rapist to godless scientists. Its one hell of a slippery slope. Members of the public do seem an ideal source of public policy but that’s just me.
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Old 6th June 2019, 10:39 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
“Allegedly” the key word. We can’t have post mortem trials, but it looks like we can have post mortem convictions.
What is a stake here? What is the cost of a name change?
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Old 6th June 2019, 10:43 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Child rape and war crimes do seem a bit shady.
If they indeed happened. And to my earlier point, would not almost every military action prior to the 20th century constitute a war crime under the Geneva Conventions? All statues down, all names change.

Judging historical figures by today’s standards is stupid. Getting worked up about street names and statues, stupider still.
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Old 6th June 2019, 10:48 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
What is a stake here? What is the cost of a name change?
I’ll turn that around. What’s to be gained? Bugger all in my opinion.

I don’t drive over Bolte Bridge cursing the incompetent and likely corrupt but deceased old toad. I can name a lot of streets I drive along where I don’t like the person they are named after. I don’t clutch my pearls and demand the names be changed.
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Old 6th June 2019, 10:53 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I’ll turn that around. What’s to be gained? Bugger all in my opinion.

I don’t drive over Bolte Bridge cursing the incompetent and likely corrupt but deceased old toad. I can name a lot of streets I drive along where I don’t like the person they are named after. I don’t clutch my pearls and demand the names be changed.
We gain not commemorating abhorrent people. As far as evidence goes it need not be Pell level.

Pearl clutching, huh? Yeah lets just erase the names of child rapists and war criminals from our public spaces.

What is the cost of renaming a public space/landmark?
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Old 6th June 2019, 10:55 PM   #21
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I don’t mind either of you blokes. Excuse the snark. In a **** mood.
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Old 6th June 2019, 10:58 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I’ve said this in other similar threads about statues and so on, if you judged every historical figure on today’s standards, no statues would survive. Churchill? Nasty piece of work, sexist, probably racist. Out with you. Every royal, general, admiral and political leader prior to the 20th century? Racists, autocrats, bullies all of you. No statues, no names.

History shouldn’t work like that.
Sure it should. Why on Earth shouldn't it?

People of future generations shouldn't be forced to honor the people we honor today if they decide there's a good reason not to honor them; it's entirely their prerogative. Taking a statue of somebody down or taking their name off a building or street doesn't remove their name from the history books.

Statues aren't "history", they're not about history. They're about our (the people who erect them) opinion of a person. It's okay to remove a statue when opinions of that person have changed.
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Old 6th June 2019, 10:58 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
“Allegedly” the key word. We can’t have post mortem trials, but it looks like we can have post mortem convictions.
Who's being convicted? The guy's dead. Also, his sexual assault of minors is pretty well established as fact. The impetus for the name change wasn't some random politician, it was a submission to the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse. And it wasn't some nameless nobody politician who announced the decision, it was Mick Gentleman, who is a veteran MLA and quite well-regarded in the community.

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
What is a stake here? What is the cost of a name change?
Actually there is a fairly substantial cost to changing the name of a major road as all signage, maps and related records need to be updated.

ETA but that's obvious so I'm not sure why I mentioned it. Maybe I'm in a bit of a **** mood tonight as well.
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Old 6th June 2019, 10:59 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
We gain not commemorating abhorrent people. As far as evidence goes it need not be Pell level.
A lot of Churchill’s attitudes, behaviours and decisions are abhorrent by the contemporary standards of some. Like Slim, he was a war hero. You have judged Slim to be not appropriate to be commemorated on the basis of an untried allegation. What about Churchill?
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:03 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
A lot of Churchill’s attitudes, behaviours and decisions are abhorrent by the contemporary standards of some. Like Slim, he was a war hero. You have judged Slim to be not appropriate to be commemorated on the basis of an untried allegation. What about Churchill?
Like I said, there's really not a lot of doubt that Slim was a kiddy fiddler. Sure, he can't be tried because he's dead. We can't try Hitler either (oh no, have I Godwinned the thread already), but we pretty universally recognise that we don't want to name a street after him.
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:07 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
A lot of Churchill’s attitudes, behaviours and decisions are abhorrent by the contemporary standards of some. Like Slim, he was a war hero. You have judged Slim to be not appropriate to be commemorated on the basis of an untried allegation. What about Churchill?
He didn’t do the Anzacs any favours. Lets find a good local indigenous name.
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:08 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
He didn’t do the Anzacs any favours. Lets find a good local indigenous name.
At least you’re consistent.

You will need to rename a hell of a lot of places, including a quite pleasant Gippsland town.

Whoops, Gipps was racist, wasn’t he?
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:11 PM   #28
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So the bloke was only ever "accused"?

Seems a tad silly
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:14 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
At least you’re consistent.

You will need to rename a hell of a lot of places, including a quite pleasant Gippsland town.

Whoops, Gipps was racist, wasn’t he?
I am thinking National Highway Number One could do with a change too. Theres one to ruffle more than a few feathers. The old track holds great deal of sentiment to me and I read the Stuart diaries.
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:16 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I’ve said this in other similar threads about statues and so on, if you judged every historical figure on today’s standards, no statues would survive.

This is not only not true, but it is a known method of damage controlling racism and sexism by racists and sexists.

Historically there have always been good people. At no time in history did educated well meaning people not know that racism and sexism are bad. And many of them, believe it or not, practiced it.
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:26 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
This is not only not true, but it is a known method of damage controlling racism and sexism by racists and sexists.

Historically there have always been good people. At no time in history did educated well meaning people not know that racism and sexism are bad. And many of them, believe it or not, practiced it.
Justified as divine will, the natural order.
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:27 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
So the bloke was only ever "accused"?

Seems a tad silly
Well he's a little dead, which precludes the possibility of a typical legal process.
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:30 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
So the bloke was only ever "accused"?

Seems a tad silly
For the third time, No-one really doubts it.

Since it's clear that I'm going to have to spell it out because no-one's looking at the link I provided, Slim was the patron of Fairbridge Farm, which at the time was assisting with several child migration programs. In 2007, several people came forward to say that they had been sexually abused by Slim at the farm, and by 2014 it had been referred to the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse.

According to one report, up to 60% of children who went through Fairbridge Farm were sexually abused.
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:32 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post

Historically there have always been good people. At no time in history did educated well meaning people not know that racism and sexism are bad. And many of them, believe it or not, practiced it.
This is utter nonsense, unless you define “educated and well meaning people” to be a few saints and exclude the entire ruling royal and religious classes of every nation prior to the 20th century.
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:46 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Well he's a little dead, which precludes the possibility of a typical legal process.
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
For the third time, No-one really doubts it.

Since it's clear that I'm going to have to spell it out because no-one's looking at the link I provided, Slim was the patron of Fairbridge Farm, which at the time was assisting with several child migration programs. In 2007, several people came forward to say that they had been sexually abused by Slim at the farm, and by 2014 it had been referred to the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse.

According to one report, up to 60% of children who went through Fairbridge Farm were sexually abused.

So "alleged" means guilty?

Been listening to any Michael Jackson tunes lately?
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:48 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
This is utter nonsense, unless you define “educated and well meaning people” to be a few saints and exclude the entire ruling royal and religious classes of every nation prior to the 20th century.
I find the question in open and interesting one. Got any solid references here? Anyone else out there?
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:49 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
So "alleged" means guilty?

Been listening to any Michael Jackson tunes lately?
“Michael Jackson Elementary School”
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:52 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
So "alleged" means guilty?

Been listening to any Michael Jackson tunes lately?
Haven't, actually, though that's not really relevant here.
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:56 PM   #39
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Sure it is. You asked for opinions, people are opining.
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:58 PM   #40
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Until they rename Washington I will treat this selective renaming, hypey, wiping out of history for the touchy feelies with the disdain it deserves.
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