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Tags Naval incidents , US-Russia relations

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Old 12th June 2019, 10:56 AM   #121
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Alert the media!! The ISF has made its ruling!
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Old 12th June 2019, 12:35 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Alert the media!! The ISF has made its ruling!
//ENDTHREAD
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Old 12th June 2019, 01:04 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
That's the first mention I've seen of a statement* that they were showing the proper flags.

That more or less settles it. The Russian vessel was at fault. You don't tack to a crossing move when a ship is recovering an aircraft. Period.


*ETA: I'd seen the ABC article before and they don't say it's been updated but I swear there was no such statement in it, originally. But I could be mistaken.
I quoted and linked the article 24 hours ago in this post...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0&postcount=96

You still denied what I was telling you.
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:30 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I quoted and linked the article 24 hours ago in this post...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0&postcount=96

You still denied what I was telling you.
The article is from the 7th. I'd read it previously. If it was updated in your link, then I missed it. (Your link just goes to whatever the current article is, so the fact that it currently has that paragraph means nothing in the history of the posts. But if you say the statement was there, I'll concede as it's not significant.)
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:32 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Alert the media!! The ISF has made its ruling!
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
//ENDTHREAD
As it should be. When was the last time you saw someone in Politics or SI//CE concede that their argument was incorrect. Maybe we'll start a trend. (Looks over at the Nazi-Egging thread.... Naaaah!)
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:44 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
As it should be. When was the last time you saw someone in Politics or SI//CE concede that their argument was incorrect. Maybe we'll start a trend. (Looks over at the Nazi-Egging thread.... Naaaah!)

Well, your argument wasn't incorrect. You just missed another questionable official statement which you took as an opportunity to give in against the group pressure, as Klimax already came close to putting you into the same cupboard as yours truly (who said nothing about who is to blame for this incident, only came after you cried for help and provided the official Russian stance after the lot of "experts" were pontificating for two and a half page without that information already).

But don't worry, I can prove that you are indeed mistaken: in your impression that the paragraph with the official statement you missed before wasn't there all the time. It's at least in the first snapshot of the Wayback Machine, from June 7th.

You're welcome.
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Old 13th June 2019, 05:39 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
I just picture the skipper of the Chancellorsville drinking a cup of coffee, an older bald guy, and Maverick decides to do a fly by, the Russian ship decides to bluff run at his starboard bow, and he spills his coffee, saying 'God dammit Maverick'.
<nit pick> He was the Air Boss not the Captain. /<nit pick> And somehow he was everywhere Maverick was, either ashore or at sea.
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Old 13th June 2019, 01:59 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by HawksFan View Post
<nit pick> He was the Air Boss not the Captain. /<nit pick> And somehow he was everywhere Maverick was, either ashore or at sea.
Yes!

He was at the Naval Air Station and on the carrier. Good catch.
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Old 13th June 2019, 04:42 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Why is everyone ignoring that it's what the Russians Americans do and have done fore decades?
FTFY

Or am I mistaken that USA used to have a constantly-orbiting set of nuclear-armed bombers over the Arctic? And had nuclear missiles in Europe aimed at Russian targets?

Bloody funny when the boot's on the other foot. Yanks cry.

Everyone else finds it funny as hell.

You know there was no bad intent by the Russians, because none of their crew gave the Yanks the bird on the way past. They were very ho-hum about it all.
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Old 13th June 2019, 06:09 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Well, your argument wasn't incorrect. You just missed another questionable official statement which you took as an opportunity to give in against the group pressure, as Klimax already came close to putting you into the same cupboard as yours truly (who said nothing about who is to blame for this incident, only came after you cried for help and provided the official Russian stance after the lot of "experts" were pontificating for two and a half page without that information already).

But don't worry, I can prove that you are indeed mistaken: in your impression that the paragraph with the official statement you missed before wasn't there all the time. It's at least in the first snapshot of the Wayback Machine, from June 7th.

You're welcome.
Right conclusion; wrong motive.

As I said earlier, nothing will be proved in this. We have competing pre$$titute$. The Pentagon's Sound Machine and TASS. No one's forthcoming with any photos showing what colors were on the mast. No one's coming forward with the tracking of the vessels. The thread could go on forever. I alluded to the Egging Nazis thread. No new information introduced and multiple-thousands of posts of "Is too!" "Is not!" You can't argue facts when the discussion is reduced to opinions. "Well, in my opinion your facts are incorrect and not proven." "Oh, yeah? Well, you're the one whose facts are incorrect, so there."

I believe neither government's version. Since it ain't going to go to court and won't be documented (for fear of either side letting the other know how good their scanning abilities are), the point becomes unprovable.

I still tend to side against anything USN PacFleet says. This carrier group, in particular, has been shown to have woefully prepared officers and substandard training. And their whitewash of the Fitzgerald incident is now on record. No one (well, other than T_A, apparently) seems to want to do anything with the Fifth Carrier Group's poor history.

But since we're not likely to get any further confirmed data, I see a discussion going no where. Since I was the only dissenting voice, I decided to let it go. No deaths, no damages, no investigation. We won't be getting any more information.
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Old 13th June 2019, 06:19 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Right conclusion; wrong motive.

Nope. You just could have said going along with your previous line "oh well I missed that other dubious official statement". Instead you completely dropped the ball. Group pressure too hard to take was the motive.

It's very likely that there will be no updates in the pre$$titute media, but it also isn't unlikely that if you keep yourself updated, there will be some interesting developments reported on a "lower" level. Like recently in several of the Ukraine issues (Maidan killings, Odessa Union burnings, MH17). And about the already-then-obviously-fake "chemical weapons" stunt in Douma which led Trump to bomb the Syrian desert for the second time.
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Old 13th June 2019, 06:30 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
FTFY

Or am I mistaken that USA used to have a constantly-orbiting set of nuclear-armed bombers over the Arctic? And had nuclear missiles in Europe aimed at Russian targets?

Bloody funny when the boot's on the other foot. Yanks cry.

Everyone else finds it funny as hell.

You know there was no bad intent by the Russians, because none of their crew gave the Yanks the bird on the way past. They were very ho-hum about it all.
What does any of that got to do with Russian ships playing gsmes with NATO ships?
Of course there was bad intent, there is always bad intent from Russian warships. I have bern on the receiving end of it.

As for American missiles aimed at Russian targets, are you forgetting Russian bombers circling and missiles aimed at European targets?

All that's happened is the Russian boot has some new laces.
Still the same second rate ships though.
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Old 13th June 2019, 06:37 PM   #133
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Captain Swoop, I hate to break it to you but your cold warrior stories from the eighties are maybe mildly interesting, but in current year what you say about Russians as such is bordering hate speech (to avoid the silly word "racism") which we all are told is double-plus bad. Therefore there is a bit of silence about the to you obvious conclusions you present.
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Old 13th June 2019, 06:49 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Nope. You just could have said going along with your previous line "oh well I missed that other dubious official statement". Instead you completely dropped the ball. Group pressure too hard to take was the motive.
You always ascribe motives when you have no knowledge of a situation. Remember when you had me pegged for an investment banker and CIA operative or whatever the implication was? I gave you the motive. Either accept it or **** off.

Quote:
It's very likely that there will be no updates in the pre$$titute media, but it also isn't unlikely that if you keep yourself updated, there will be some interesting developments reported on a "lower" level. Like recently in several of the Ukraine issues (Maidan killings, Odessa Union burnings, MH17). And about the already-then-obviously-fake "chemical weapons" stunt in Douma which led Trump to bomb the Syrian desert for the second time.
We differ in the opinion of developments on lower levels. This was not a casualty. No damage. No injury. No death. Business as usual. No one's going to follow up on it. There will be no hearings and there are no investigative journalists working on it. My usual obscure sources - the marine casualty and underwriter networks - are silent. Since the Russians have offered no evidence other than their assertions, it's not going anywhere. Not when we have Trump-Bolton-Pompeo practicing the ancient art of Escalatio in the Persian Gulf. They've all got bigger fish to fry.
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Old 13th June 2019, 07:57 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
What does any of that got to do with Russian ships playing gsmes with NATO ships?
Both sides are exactly the same - two countries led by dicks who shouldn't be in charge of a lemonade stand, with their faithful grunts playing stupid games.

If the lot of you would grow up, the world would be a better place.

In the meantime, crying because one side doesn't play by the rules just ignores the blatant fact that neither side plays by the rules.

The irony of a country that launched thousands of drone strikes blubbering about a warship spraying a bit of salt water over their navy isn't lost on me.

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Remember when you had me pegged for an investment banker and CIA operative or whatever the implication was?
No.

You bloody well told me you were Crown Prince Chuyawangdang of Thailand.

Lying bastard!
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Old 13th June 2019, 08:52 PM   #136
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Naval Fleets from all countries, all over the world, carry out flight operations every day, dozens of times each day. It is a STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE for all naval ships to fly the required day shapes and make the necessary radio calls on the Guard Channel prior to and during the period such operations are under way. If the ship commenced flight operations without raising the ball-diamond-ball day shapes, the flight deck crew would immediately question why this was.

The idea that the US Navy would some how intentionally NOT fly the required day shapes while carrying out flight operations, in the hope that a Russian ship would somehow be drawn into charging at them so that the US could make a big deal about it, is just preposterous. Its the sort of mindset I expect to see from Conspiracy Theorists not skeptics. It requires an astonishing level of stupidity and ignorance to believe that something like this would happen.

The is NO QUESTION that the USS Chancellorville was carrying out flight operations. The Russians WILL have been videoing her from their vessel, and if she wasn't flying the required day shapes, or recovering her Helo, it would be obvious on the video, and the Russians would be trumpeting that on RT 24/7/365
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Old 13th June 2019, 11:03 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Remember when you had me pegged for an investment banker and CIA operative or whatever the implication was?

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Old 14th June 2019, 02:17 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The is NO QUESTION that the USS Chancellorville was carrying out flight operations.
I don't know for sure, but from what I can see, it looks like the incident occurred inside China's claims, so the Yanks were there uninvited, unlike the Russkies.

Is that correct - was it in the disputed area?

I thought the whole thing smacked of Putin taking a bit of heat off China by instituting an incident the USN had been told to get the hell out of.
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Old 14th June 2019, 02:43 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Captain Swoop, I hate to break it to you but your cold warrior stories from the eighties are maybe mildly interesting, but in current year what you say about Russians as such is bordering hate speech (to avoid the silly word "racism") which we all are told is double-plus bad. Therefore there is a bit of silence about the to you obvious conclusions you present.
You are funny.
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Old 14th June 2019, 02:46 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I don't know for sure, but from what I can see, it looks like the incident occurred inside China's claims, so the Yanks were there uninvited, unlike the Russkies.

Is that correct - was it in the disputed area?

I thought the whole thing smacked of Putin taking a bit of heat off China by instituting an incident the USN had been told to get the hell out of.
Why would you need an invitation from China to sail in international waters?
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Old 14th June 2019, 04:22 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Why would you need an invitation from China to sail in international waters?

This!

Just because the Chinese claim the whole of the South China Sea is theirs doesn't make it so.
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Old 14th June 2019, 08:06 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I don't know for sure, but from what I can see, it looks like the incident occurred inside China's claims, so the Yanks were there uninvited, unlike the Russkies.

Is that correct - was it in the disputed area?

I thought the whole thing smacked of Putin taking a bit of heat off China by instituting an incident the USN had been told to get the hell out of.

I don't think it was in the disputed area this time, at least I have not read any mentioning of that. The USS Chancellorsville has been used to troll the Chinese before though. From December 2018:

Originally Posted by PhilStar
[...] According to the Pentagon, the USS Chancellorsville guided-missile destroyer sailed Monday near the Paracel islands, known as Xisha in Chinese, "to challenge excessive maritime claims and preserve access to the waterways as governed by international law."

The Chinese military scrambled aircraft and warships, sending out warnings for the American vessel to leave the area.

"We urge the US to strengthen the management of its vessels and aircraft that pass by Chinese territory to prevent unexpected events," People's Liberation Army Southern Theatre spokesman Li Huamin said in a statement.

China has also lodged a diplomatic complaint with Washington, foreign ministry spokesman Geng Shuang said during a regular press briefing, calling on the US to "immediately stop such provocative actions that violate China's sovereignty". [...]
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Old 14th June 2019, 08:08 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
You are funny.

And correct.
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Old 14th June 2019, 08:13 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
I don't think it was in the disputed area this time, at least I have not read any mentioning of that. The USS Chancellorsville has been used to troll the Chinese before though. From December 2018:
How is sailing legally in international waters 'trolling' anyone?
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Old 14th June 2019, 10:35 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
How is sailing legally in international waters 'trolling' anyone?
When they use nets?

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Old 14th June 2019, 11:20 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
How is sailing legally in international waters 'trolling' anyone?
China is brewing a hegemonic territorial dispute in the region. Sailing in the disputed area without first acknowledging, validating, and resolving that dispute, to China's satisfaction, is an irresponsible escalation of regional tensions.

If the US were really interested in peace, their Navy wouldn't sail west of Midway without China's invitation.
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Old 14th June 2019, 11:24 AM   #147
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Sailing in international waters is well within the rights of any ship of any nation.
China can make all the claims it wants it can't stop any vessel from navigating in international waters.
If it wants to enforce it's claim it will have to take direct action. That will mean a war.
If it doesn't want a war it will have to go through recognised procedures in international law.
Until that time it can't enforce anything without shooting.
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Old 14th June 2019, 12:29 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
When they use nets?

That would be trawling. Trolling is another method of fishing, where lures and/or bait are dragged behind a moving boat, using a rod and real. [/pedantry]
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Old 14th June 2019, 12:56 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Sailing in international waters is well within the rights of any ship of any nation.
China can make all the claims it wants it can't stop any vessel from navigating in international waters.
If it wants to enforce it's claim it will have to take direct action. That will mean a war.
If it doesn't want a war it will have to go through recognised procedures in international law.
Until that time it can't enforce anything without shooting.
This post is a clown car of misunderstanding.

The point is that it's still unnecessarily antagonistic for the US to sail in those waters before the dispute is resolved.
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Old 14th June 2019, 01:05 PM   #150
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It is not unnecessary. it is very necessary.
If ships stop sailing in the disputed waters then China gets them by default.
It is only China that disputes the waters.
If they can make a case and have it accepted then that is a different matter.
They know that there isn't a chance that their claim to the South China Sea will be recognised.
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Old 14th June 2019, 01:11 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Why would you need an invitation from China to sail in international waters?
Let me see... how many countries unilaterally declared exclusion zones?

I see to recall a bunch of Pommy filth in the 1970s taking exception to Iceland creating an exclusion zone. How did that work out?

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Sailing in international waters is well within the rights of any ship of any nation.
China can make all the claims it wants it can't stop any vessel from navigating in international waters.
If it wants to enforce it's claim it will have to take direct action. That will mean a war.
If it doesn't want a war it will have to go through recognised procedures in international law.
Until that time it can't enforce anything without shooting.
Haha! Very stiff upper lip, old chap.

Seems to me that China's found the perfect way around the situation - let Vlad's boys make it too dangerous for the USPACFLEETCOWARDS to continue to flout China's will.

I don't think even Trump would think declaring war on Russia was a smart move. He's not going to upset his boss, is he?
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Old 14th June 2019, 01:54 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
It is not unnecessary. it is very necessary.
If ships stop sailing in the disputed waters then China gets them by default.
It is only China that disputes the waters.
If they can make a case and have it accepted then that is a different matter.
They know that there isn't a chance that their claim to the South China Sea will be recognised.

This. Use it or lose it.

China has no historical right to exclusive use of the South China Sea. They might have declared a 200 NM economic exclusion zone, but by International Law that does not prevent ships from sailing in it.

What China is doing is building islands in the South China sea, so that they can claim those islands as part of its territory, and make the South China Sea part of their internal waters.

https://nationalinterest.org/feature...building-32372
Since 2014, China has installed radar facilities, airstrips, structures intended to house missiles, and military jamming equipment on its artificial islands. Though China is not the first country to construct such facilities in the South China Sea, the scope of its activities far surpasses that of any other claimant.

On May 2, 2018, a bombshell CNBC report revealed that China deployed YJ-12B anti-ship cruise missiles and HQ-9B surface-to-air missiles on Fiery Cross Reef, Subi Reef, and Mischief Reef. Though China installed missiles in the Paracel Islands in 2016, this incident marked the first time that China placed missiles in the Spratly Islands—an unambiguous escalation of its militarization program. Later that May, China landed long-range bombers in the Spratly Islands for the first time.
This activity by China must be opposed. Sailing at will in the contested water without invitation is one of those ways. If you ask their permission to do so, you are effectively saying to the Chinese that you agree to their claim.
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Old 14th June 2019, 04:29 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Let me see... how many countries unilaterally declared exclusion zones?

I see to recall a bunch of Pommy filth in the 1970s taking exception to Iceland creating an exclusion zone. How did that work out?



Haha! Very stiff upper lip, old chap.

Seems to me that China's found the perfect way around the situation - let Vlad's boys make it too dangerous for the USPACFLEETCOWARDS to continue to flout China's will.

I don't think even Trump would think declaring war on Russia was a smart move. He's not going to upset his boss, is he?
Well, the so called 'Cod War' was before the UN International Convention on the Law of the Sea of 1982 which established a 200 mile 'Exclusive Economic Zone'. Before that a country would arbitrarily try to extended their territorial waters. hence the so called 'Cod War'.
This was settled by diplomacy but the RN insisted on the right to navigation right to the end. Just like it did when Albania tried to claim the straits between their coast and Corfu.
Even allowing for the 1982 law ships cannot be prohibited from 'passage or loitering above, on, or under the surface of the sea' the economic zone zone.
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Old 14th June 2019, 05:45 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Even allowing for the 1982 law ships cannot be prohibited from 'passage or loitering above, on, or under the surface of the sea' the economic zone zone.
Yes, and the Yanks will continue to assert their muscles to piss China off, and the Russians will continue to play chicken with them.

What America has neatly done is allow Putin to move his ships into a whole new sphere of influence, just as America's appalling record in Africa has allowed him to move into new spheres in sub-Saharan Africa.

America should really get a couple of generals to learn how to play Risk, because Putin's legendary at it, and if you know the game, you can see that he's playing it on the real world right now.
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Old 14th June 2019, 10:55 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Yes, and the Yanks will continue to assert their muscles to piss China off....
They might be pissing the Chinese off, but that is not their intention; or at least, not their only intention. They are also exercising their legal right to sail in international waters. If they don't, and no-one else does, then the Chinese will de-facto win and be able to claim the South China Sea as their sovereign territory. Both the US and Russia appear to have decided they are not going to allow the Chinese to bully them out of international waters.

The Chinese are expansionists, they are trying to militarise the whole area - this a destabilising influence on the region.
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Old 15th June 2019, 02:42 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The Chinese Americans are expansionists, they are trying to militarise the whole area - this a destabilising influence on the region planet.
Works like that, too.

You'd think, with having screwed up the Middle East, having destabilised SE Asia for a few decades and South & Central America for even more, they'd get sick of it, but no end in sight yet.

And I don't buy the "keeping international waters open" for a second. At no stage has China threatened to stop anyone travelling in the area, and it would be entirely uneconomic for them to try. The only ships they don't want there are Yank ships bristling with weapons.
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Old 15th June 2019, 03:08 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Works like that, too.

You'd think, with having screwed up the Middle East, having destabilised SE Asia for a few decades and South & Central America for even more, they'd get sick of it, but no end in sight yet.

And I don't buy the "keeping international waters open" for a second. At no stage has China threatened to stop anyone travelling in the area, and it would be entirely uneconomic for them to try. The only ships they don't want there are Yank ships bristling with weapons.
Well that's hard luck for them, all ships are allowed there.
Yank Ships 'bristling with weapons' would still be allowed there even if they got their way.
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Old 15th June 2019, 06:24 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
That would be trawling. Trolling is another method of fishing, where lures and/or bait are dragged behind a moving boat, using a rod and real. [/pedantry]

Hmm, so over the past 40 years we've gone from Soviet "fishing trawlers" to Russian trollers. Progress!
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Old 15th June 2019, 04:07 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Works like that, too.

In what universe are you living in where the USA is expansionist??

Unless you are counting the first 100 years which was long before they became the first super power?

After becoming the most powerful country on the planet the USA has done ZERO expanding of its empire.

In fact, they are the first country in the history of the entire world to NOT do any expanding after becoming the most powerful country.

Out of all of the countries in history that were the most powerful country on the planet at their time, nearly every single one of them not only was expansionist but aimed for known world domination. And none of them did zero expanding of their empire after becoming the world leader. Only the USA has done that.

So good luck floating your "Americans are expansionists" nonsense in any rational forum.
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Old 15th June 2019, 04:30 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Works like that, too.
Really?

Show me some territory that the USA has recently occupied, that is now under rule by the US Government, and to which Americans have moved to and are building their own homes and are living.

Go learn some history.

The USA expanded from the east coast until they reached the west coast, and they they stopped. The two pieces of "expansionism" were 152 years ago 1867 when the USA purchased Alaska from Russia (for 2c/acre), and the annexation of Hawaii 121 years ago in 1898. The people of Hawaii VOTED to become a US state in 1959 with 93% of voters in favour.
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