ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags ghosts

Reply
Old 13th September 2019, 12:59 PM   #281
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,061
Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
You're confusing the idea of credible witnesses with independent verification but they are two separate things.

...
I don't know if that is addressed to me or not, but all I have presented is what I would regard as credible evidence, nothing more. In no way am I saying ghosts are proven, or even well evidenced. I am saying that due to credible sightings, I think that there is a probability there is something (not sure exactly what) that we call a ghost, that is not just a mind trick, trick of the light.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2019, 07:31 PM   #282
Axxman300
Illuminator
 
Axxman300's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 3,955
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I don't know if that is addressed to me or not, but all I have presented is what I would regard as credible evidence, nothing more. In no way am I saying ghosts are proven, or even well evidenced. I am saying that due to credible sightings, I think that there is a probability there is something (not sure exactly what) that we call a ghost, that is not just a mind trick, trick of the light.
I've spent 39 years studying this subject. I have read every book on the subject, everything from egghead to regional true ghost stories. I still buy true ghost story books now and again. My interest was formed in my teenage years while I worked in a restaurant that - seemed- to be haunted. I had a key to the place and I spent hours in this one location alone trying to figure it all out. I WAS a believer based on the things I saw and heard in the three years I worked there. As I became knowledgeable I was asked to investigate hauntings around town.

A few years later the US Army closed Fort Ord leaving 3,000 different buildings empty. I've been inside approximately 600 of them, but not in search of ghosts. My interest was the many murals left behind by the soldiers of the 7thID(L). Out of those 600 buildings I experienced unusual activity in 12. That's 2%. The great thing about an abandoned Army base is that many of the buildings are uniform and this allowed me make observations the few investigators could make. Why does one building creep me out while an identical building in worse shape feel comfortable. Most of the buildings experienced suicides during their 40 years and a few saw murders. All of them saw brutal assaults.






(Spooky, right? Completely comfortable building)





(Uniform)

Why does one building give off a creepy vibe while it's twin feel welcoming(or neutral)? Why would I see things in one but not the other?

This was the late 1990's through 2005, and the first real research into Infrasound was being published. This work gave me something solid to observe and it paid dividends. I found that the creepy buildings had fewer open doors on their second and third floors creating a resonating chamber effect. After I opened all of the doors on all three floors of the creepy building the feelings of dread vanished. I found the reverse to be true when I closed doors in the "happy" buildings.

And yes, this is subjective. It holds zero scientific value but I feel it is a reasonable explanation that is consistent with scientific research on infrasound.

I heard and saw a lot of things out there, and I have ghost stories up the yinyang from my explorations there, but I also followed up on these occurrences until I could explain most of them. And I finish with this point:

My investigations fall into two catagories; explained and yet to be explained. Like I said, I'd love to get my hands on that Nobel Prize money, I would love to see ghosts "proven" as something other than a trick of the mind. The fact is I have to play by the rules and that means that I have no evidence of ghosts. I do have evidence that supports the conclusions about infrasound's influence on the mind, and to me that's just as rewarding.
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha
Axxman300 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2019, 07:05 AM   #283
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 87,169
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Yes. Since part of the house was the police office and being where we were, doors were not always locked, we had had people just walk into the house.



The footsteps walked right past me, but I saw no one. The same thing happened to my spouse.


What I find strange about this is how you could identify them as footsteps that sounded the same. You have no way of knowing what it sounded like to other people with a similar claim. And what do footsteps actually sound like? I'd say they can sound very different depending on the surface, the speed, footwear and so on. I think from the evidence you presented you don't have enough to know if you and the others claiming to have heard the same thing. Indeed I can see how other people could have claimed to have heard the same thing after you mentioned it when at the time they didn't identify them as footsteps.

It is anything but evidence for a supernatural event.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2019, 12:20 PM   #284
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,061
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
What I find strange about this is how you could identify them as footsteps that sounded the same. You have no way of knowing what it sounded like to other people with a similar claim. And what do footsteps actually sound like? I'd say they can sound very different depending on the surface, the speed, footwear and so on. I think from the evidence you presented you don't have enough to know if you and the others claiming to have heard the same thing. Indeed I can see how other people could have claimed to have heard the same thing after you mentioned it when at the time they didn't identify them as footsteps.

It is anything but evidence for a supernatural event.
I think you mean that the different people who heard footsteps may have heard different footsteps?

I know that what I heard was footsteps and it is evidence that there is something out there that we know virtually nothing about.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2019, 12:54 PM   #285
8enotto
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Mexico
Posts: 1,033
I have gone from wanting to believe in something more than we know to simply not being able to explain thing and events. For example a house I lived in 30 years ago had more winter ghosts than summer, once the frost was out and the furnace off.

CO and frost heaving could explain it all if my fuzzy memories are half right. But no way I can go back anymore. I just recently read of carbon monoxide gasses fooling the senses and " causing " ghost perception. My basement room had more weirdness than the drafty 2nd floor.

You NEVER see any ghost hunters on tv testing that.
8enotto is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2019, 01:05 PM   #286
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 87,169
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I think you mean that the different people who heard footsteps may have heard different footsteps?



I know that what I heard was footsteps and it is evidence that there is something out there that we know virtually nothing about.
How can you know that?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2019, 01:37 PM   #287
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,140
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I think you mean that the different people who heard footsteps may have heard different footsteps?



I know that what I heard was footsteps and it is evidence that there is something out there that we know virtually nothing about.
We actually know a *ton* about the limits of human perception and memory.

Unless you mean there's something out there that can't be verified, can't be measured, and can't be predicted.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 10:45 AM   #288
Sherman Bay
Master Poster
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 2,226
Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Why does one building give off a creepy vibe while it's twin feel welcoming(or neutral)? Why would I see things in one but not the other?
Because humans have an infinite capacity for fantasy.
Sherman Bay is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 11:14 AM   #289
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,061
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
How can you know that?
If someone walked through your house, would not recognise what foot steps sound like?
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 12:29 AM   #290
steenkh
Philosopher
 
steenkh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 5,618
We are not talking about "someone" walking through the house, but about a "ghost". In such a case, I would assume that the sound was only similar to the sound of foot steps, but not actual foot steps.
__________________
Steen

--
Jack of all trades - master of none!
steenkh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 12:51 AM   #291
AmyW
Scholar
 
AmyW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 108
Nessie, what exactly do you believe a 'ghost' is? A person who has died?
AmyW is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 01:00 AM   #292
AmyW
Scholar
 
AmyW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 108
Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
I've spent 39 years studying this subject. I have read every book on the subject, everything from egghead to regional true ghost stories. I still buy true ghost story books now and again. My interest was formed in my teenage years while I worked in a restaurant that - seemed- to be haunted. I had a key to the place and I spent hours in this one location alone trying to figure it all out. I WAS a believer based on the things I saw and heard in the three years I worked there. As I became knowledgeable I was asked to investigate hauntings around town.

A few years later the US Army closed Fort Ord leaving 3,000 different buildings empty. I've been inside approximately 600 of them, but not in search of ghosts. My interest was the many murals left behind by the soldiers of the 7thID(L). Out of those 600 buildings I experienced unusual activity in 12. That's 2%. The great thing about an abandoned Army base is that many of the buildings are uniform and this allowed me make observations the few investigators could make. Why does one building creep me out while an identical building in worse shape feel comfortable. Most of the buildings experienced suicides during their 40 years and a few saw murders. All of them saw brutal assaults.

https://i.imgur.com/alEQkfB.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/fYqFQcW.jpg

(Spooky, right? Completely comfortable building)

https://i.imgur.com/N2trlzy.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/7ogpZGs.jpg

(Uniform)

Why does one building give off a creepy vibe while it's twin feel welcoming(or neutral)? Why would I see things in one but not the other?

This was the late 1990's through 2005, and the first real research into Infrasound was being published. This work gave me something solid to observe and it paid dividends. I found that the creepy buildings had fewer open doors on their second and third floors creating a resonating chamber effect. After I opened all of the doors on all three floors of the creepy building the feelings of dread vanished. I found the reverse to be true when I closed doors in the "happy" buildings.

And yes, this is subjective. It holds zero scientific value but I feel it is a reasonable explanation that is consistent with scientific research on infrasound.

I heard and saw a lot of things out there, and I have ghost stories up the yinyang from my explorations there, but I also followed up on these occurrences until I could explain most of them. And I finish with this point:

My investigations fall into two catagories; explained and yet to be explained. Like I said, I'd love to get my hands on that Nobel Prize money, I would love to see ghosts "proven" as something other than a trick of the mind. The fact is I have to play by the rules and that means that I have no evidence of ghosts. I do have evidence that supports the conclusions about infrasound's influence on the mind, and to me that's just as rewarding.
Amazing, so after years of research you conclude that there is yet evidence to conclude ghosts exist.
I guess I do have questions, such as mediums and ghosts, if ghosts exist then maybe psychics claims are real and the afterlife does exist. This is where my thought processes lead to.
AmyW is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 01:12 AM   #293
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 63,436
Originally Posted by AmyW View Post
Amazing, so after years of research you conclude that there is yet evidence to conclude ghosts exist.
I guess I do have questions, such as mediums and ghosts, if ghosts exist then maybe psychics claims are real and the afterlife does exist. This is where my thought processes lead to.
If ghosts are real then almost anything is believable.
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

We can't go back. We don't understand everything yet.
"Everything" is a little ambitious. We barely understand anything.
Yeah. But that's what the first part of understanding everything looks like.
- xkcd Time (frame 1071-3)
arthwollipot is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 01:34 AM   #294
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,061
Originally Posted by AmyW View Post
Nessie, what exactly do you believe a 'ghost' is? A person who has died?
I think a ghost maybe someone who appears out of time. The traditional ghost is someone who has died and has then reappeared but is now out of their time of existence. If it is some sort of time slip, a ghost could also be from the future or even elsewhere in the present.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 01:35 AM   #295
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,061
Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
We are not talking about "someone" walking through the house, but about a "ghost". In such a case, I would assume that the sound was only similar to the sound of foot steps, but not actual foot steps.
It was so similar as to be indistinguishable from actual foot steps.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 01:56 AM   #296
steenkh
Philosopher
 
steenkh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 5,618
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I think a ghost maybe someone who appears out of time. The traditional ghost is someone who has died and has then reappeared but is now out of their time of existence. If it is some sort of time slip, a ghost could also be from the future or even elsewhere in the present.
In other words, physically impossible, and you even expanded the goal posts so that every place anywhere in the world has a connection to a death. Strange that ghosts only appear at certain places.
__________________
Steen

--
Jack of all trades - master of none!
steenkh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 01:58 AM   #297
steenkh
Philosopher
 
steenkh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 5,618
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It was so similar as to be indistinguishable from actual foot steps.
Exactly. That is how our senses work. You conclusion that it must have been a physically impossible entity instead of a mundane event seems very strange.
__________________
Steen

--
Jack of all trades - master of none!
steenkh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 06:54 AM   #298
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 87,169
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
If someone walked through your house, would not recognise what foot steps sound like?
Depends who was making them, how they were walking, what footwear they had on, the floor surface and so on.

I'm afraid you seem to be doing the equivalent of being in the New Forest and hearing the sounds of hooves and saying "that's a zebra".
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 06:55 AM   #299
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 87,169
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It was so similar as to be indistinguishable from actual foot steps.
Apart from you knowing they weren't footsteps.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 12:38 PM   #300
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,061
Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
In other words, physically impossible, and you even expanded the goal posts so that every place anywhere in the world has a connection to a death. Strange that ghosts only appear at certain places.
None of the instances I have related are directly related to a death. There is an assumption that the experiences in my former house may have been related to a death.

I am not convinced about stories of hauntings as there is then an expectation which will clearly influence people.

It is the unexpected, unanticipated experiences that I think suggest that there may be something out there which can be described as a ghost.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 12:42 PM   #301
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,061
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Depends who was making them, how they were walking, what footwear they had on, the floor surface and so on.

I'm afraid you seem to be doing the equivalent of being in the New Forest and hearing the sounds of hooves and saying "that's a zebra".
No I was in my house and on hearing the sound of foot steps in the hall I said that's someone in the house, but I saw no one.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 01:18 PM   #302
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 87,169
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
No I was in my house and on hearing the sound of foot steps in the hall I said that's someone in the house, but I saw no one.
Or you heard something and as we do as humans your brain tried to make sense of the stimulus and came up with "footsteps".

But you do not know it was footsteps, indeed you have to know it was not footsteps because there was no one there. Footsteps are made when a foot hits the ground or another surface causing vibrations some of which fall within the range humans' ears and brains can detect and process.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 08:04 PM   #303
Axxman300
Illuminator
 
Axxman300's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 3,955
Originally Posted by AmyW View Post
Amazing, so after years of research you conclude that there is yet evidence to conclude ghosts exist.
I guess I do have questions, such as mediums and ghosts, if ghosts exist then maybe psychics claims are real and the afterlife does exist. This is where my thought processes lead to.
And this thinking has been the root of the problem going all the way back to the 19th Century and has clouded everything.

First we have to prove the phenomenon exists independently from human interaction. This is a tall order because ghosties don't seen to register on any equipment. But let's say we get lucky and we can prove the phenomenon on our JeeWhiz-Super Widget. Great, now we have a starting point to conduct studies, and construct experiments. That's going to be an ongoing project that might take decades before we would have a definitive definition of what the phenomenon is or is not.

As I continue to state: the most common ghost seen and or heard is that of a still living person. This should automatically rule out the afterlife.
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha
Axxman300 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:18 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.