ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags atheism , bible

Reply
Old 6th August 2017, 05:28 AM   #1961
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21,069
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As far back as Isaiah people were promised a saviour (=the Messiah) - 'the people who walked in darkness hath seen a great light'.
In what chapter and verse does Isaiah promise anyone salvation by a Messiah?

ETA There is a Messiah in Isaiah, in Chapter 45. Cyrus, King of Persia. God promises he will do various things, but saving souls isn't included in the list. Here it is.
1 “This is what the LORD says to his anointed (Mashiach in Hebrew) to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him and to strip kings of their armor, to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut: 2 I will go before you and will level the mountains ; I will break down gates of bronze and cut through bars of iron. 3 I will give you hidden treasures, riches stored in secret places, so that you may know that I am the LORD.

Last edited by Craig B; 6th August 2017 at 06:16 AM.
Craig B is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2017, 07:11 AM   #1962
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 19,016
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
In what chapter and verse does Isaiah promise anyone salvation by a Messiah?

ETA There is a Messiah in Isaiah, in Chapter 45. Cyrus, King of Persia. God promises he will do various things, but saving souls isn't included in the list. Here it is.
1 “This is what the LORD says to his anointed (Mashiach in Hebrew) to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him and to strip kings of their armor, to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut: 2 I will go before you and will level the mountains ; I will break down gates of bronze and cut through bars of iron. 3 I will give you hidden treasures, riches stored in secret places, so that you may know that I am the LORD.

Bribery? That's much better than extortion.

Seems like a better messiah to go with.
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2017, 09:26 AM   #1963
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 16,366
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
In what chapter and verse does Isaiah promise anyone salvation by a Messiah?

ETA There is a Messiah in Isaiah, in Chapter 45. Cyrus, King of Persia. God promises he will do various things, but saving souls isn't included in the list. Here it is.
1 “This is what the LORD says to his anointed (Mashiach in Hebrew) to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him and to strip kings of their armor, to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut: 2 I will go before you and will level the mountains ; I will break down gates of bronze and cut through bars of iron. 3 I will give you hidden treasures, riches stored in secret places, so that you may know that I am the LORD.
It's Isaiah 9:2. Christians abuse the hell out of that one

All of chapter 9 refers to internecine tribal squabbling. Most of Isaiah does. Christians cherry-pick it post facto. "Oh, they must have been prophesying jebus". 911 cranks even cherry-pick that chapter as a biblical prophecy of the events of 9-11-2001.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2017, 11:02 AM   #1964
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21,069
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
It's Isaiah 9:2. Christians abuse the hell out of that one

All of chapter 9 refers to internecine tribal squabbling. Most of Isaiah does. Christians cherry-pick it post facto. "Oh, they must have been prophesying jebus". 911 cranks even cherry-pick that chapter as a biblical prophecy of the events of 9-11-2001.
Even there I see nothing about messiahs saving people's souls. In the AV/KJV 5:6 is given as
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Is this version affected in any way by the Christian ideology of those who translated the text and edited this translation?

A good test is to look at the Septuagint, which is a Hebrew to Greek translation made before the Christian Era, for the benefit of Greek speaking Jews in Egypt. What does it make of the verse quoted above?
For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him. His government shall be great, and of his peace there is no end.
So LXX doesn't call any human an Almighty God, or an Everlasting Father. These are unwarranted Christian impositions on the text.

Last edited by Craig B; 6th August 2017 at 11:05 AM.
Craig B is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2017, 11:57 PM   #1965
gigmaster
Student
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Chatsworth, Ga. USA
Posts: 49
(Wrong quote. Sorry.)

Last edited by gigmaster; 6th August 2017 at 11:59 PM.
gigmaster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2017, 12:02 AM   #1966
gigmaster
Student
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Chatsworth, Ga. USA
Posts: 49
I have complete faith in anchovies on pizza., In fact, my favorite pizza is jalapenos and anchovies..... with a box of Altoids for dessert.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Well, that and we really hate anchovies on our pizza.

Or is that the igtheists?
That would be ichtheists.
gigmaster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2017, 02:10 PM   #1967
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
 
The Norseman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,858
Originally Posted by gigmaster View Post
I have complete faith in anchovies on pizza., In fact, my favorite pizza is jalapenos and anchovies..... with a box of Altoids for dessert.
Oh... you're one of them then. Eeewww!
The Norseman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2017, 09:37 PM   #1968
Cl1mh4224rd
Philosopher
 
Cl1mh4224rd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,352
Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
A well-sounding gloss that puts rose-tinted glasses on history. And blinders, too.

I'm partial to the phrase "rose-tinted blinders".

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
That is the origin of universities, not the origin of education.

But Vixen never claimed Christianity originated education. She very explicitly used the phrase "higher education", which arthwollipot mildly defended by pointing out that the claim is not exactly incorrect.

There seemed to have been a very steep dive in reading comprehension among certain religious opponents on the previous page, and I'm utterly baffled as to its cause.

Last edited by Cl1mh4224rd; 7th August 2017 at 09:38 PM.
Cl1mh4224rd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2017, 07:15 AM   #1969
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21,069
Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
I'm partial to the phrase "rose-tinted blinders".


But Vixen never claimed Christianity originated education. She very explicitly used the phrase "higher education", which arthwollipot mildly defended by pointing out that the claim is not exactly incorrect.

There seemed to have been a very steep dive in reading comprehension among certain religious opponents on the previous page, and I'm utterly baffled as to its cause.
Since you appear to be suffering from the same failure of comprehension, I iwill leave it to you to explain the cause.

Christianity originated universities, and I have explained the aspects of this that I am willing to concede. But Christianity did not originate higher education. On the contrary; I have cited an edict of Justinian, inspired by Christian bigotry, that tended to destroy higher education, and caused the closure of the Academy of Athens and the eclipse of the Law School of BeirutWP, in 549 AD.
Beirut was one of the few schools allowed to continue teaching jurisprudence when Byzantine emperor Justinian I shut down other provincial law schools.
After some centuries higher education began to revive, and the form that revival took was the university, starting in 11th century Bologna. The format of universities I attributed to the fact that mediaeval Europe had one Christian institution but many political divisions. Pagan Roman civilisation was the opposite, one polity with many religions, so higher education was different in structure.

Now if you are baffled by this, as indeed you seem to be, please go back and read the appropriate posts. If you need further clarification I will strive to provide it.

Last edited by Craig B; 8th August 2017 at 07:21 AM.
Craig B is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:04 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.