ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 25th June 2020, 03:59 PM   #201
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 27,289
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The reason white has a 1% better chance of winning than black is surely because the winner of the previous game goes first and, being the likely better player, therefore ups the probability which is an illusion based on the aforesaid advantage of the winner.

'Don't surround yourself with yourself
Move on back two squares' - Yes, 'Your Move'
No.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2020, 05:01 PM   #202
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,071
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The reason white has a 1% better chance of winning than black is surely because the winner of the previous game goes first and, being the likely better player, therefore ups the probability which is an illusion based on the aforesaid advantage of the winner.

'Don't surround yourself with yourself
Move on back two squares' - Yes, 'Your Move'
You're joking around here, right?
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2020, 03:18 AM   #203
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 28,883
Surely white's advantage comes in part from having more moves? If there have been three moves in the game, then white has moved twice. There's never a moment when black has had more moves than white.

I play an online game which is a cross between chess and a CCG, and they get round the person moving first advantage by changing how much mana you have.

The way it works is that you build a deck of 12 cards, and each round you have 4 cards that you can choose to play. Each card costs a certain amount of mana to play, with the amount of mana required being dependent on how good the card is.

The player who goes first has 3 mana to spend. The next player has 4, then the first player has 4. Then it's 5 &5. And so on.

It's not perfect, but it does help mitigate the "has more moves" advantage, as well as the "can dictate the strategy" advantage.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2020, 03:20 AM   #204
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 28,883
Anyway, I'm disappointed to open this thread and see that the only posts since yesterday are people discussing chess from a statistical perspective, rather than anybody else being absolutely shocked and appalled that daytime radio DJs can be inane.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2020, 03:33 AM   #205
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 45,713
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Anyway, I'm disappointed to open this thread and see that the only posts since yesterday are people discussing chess from a statistical perspective, rather than anybody else being absolutely shocked and appalled that daytime radio DJs can be inane.
I made the point in the OP that I wished the ABC was not perusing something like this. Evidence shows that they thought about it to the extent of calling a chess expert. They didn’t take it further most likely because of the reaction to the stupidity. I’m happy.

And I’m also enjoying the discussion about chess. Particularly from those who know nothing about the game.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2020, 03:40 AM   #206
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 45,713
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Surely white's advantage comes in part from having more moves? If there have been three moves in the game, then white has moved twice. There's never a moment when black has had more moves than white.

I play an online game which is a cross between chess and a CCG, and they get round the person moving first advantage by changing how much mana you have.

The way it works is that you build a deck of 12 cards, and each round you have 4 cards that you can choose to play. Each card costs a certain amount of mana to play, with the amount of mana required being dependent on how good the card is.

The player who goes first has 3 mana to spend. The next player has 4, then the first player has 4. Then it's 5 &5. And so on.

It's not perfect, but it does help mitigate the "has more moves" advantage, as well as the "can dictate the strategy" advantage.
White sets the scene. Yes black counters, and if black repeats every single move by white there will always be a stalemate (Iím going by memory, I hope Iím right). Stalemates are no fun for anyone, so black counters. Counter attacks often work, but as you can see from the statistics, setting the scene works more often.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2020, 03:57 AM   #207
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,071
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
White sets the scene. Yes black counters, and if black repeats every single move by white there will always be a stalemate (I’m going by memory, I hope I’m right). Stalemates are no fun for anyone, so black counters. Counter attacks often work, but as you can see from the statistics, setting the scene works more often.
I'm afraid not. If black mirrors white's game, and white is reasonably competent, black gets destroyed. At the elite level, stalemate is a kind of victory for black. White's advantage is being one beat ahead in tempo before the game even begins, which is a powerful weapon in the hands of an advanced player.
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Wollen owns the stage

Last edited by trustbutverify; 26th June 2020 at 04:16 AM.
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2020, 04:04 AM   #208
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 45,713
Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
I'm afraid not. If black mirrors white's game, and white is reasonably competent, black will be destroyed. At the elite level, stalemate is a victory for black. White's advantage is being one beat ahead in tempo before the game even begins, which is a powerful weapon in the hands of an advanced player.
Okay. I absolutely accept this. My belief originated from the man who taught me chess, my dad. He was a world championship ******** artist, but as a young kid I believed every word he said.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2020, 05:02 AM   #209
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 89,651
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The real issue with chess is that it promotes monarchy. Is this the middle ages? Kings and queens?
I agree. We should exile these immediately and replace them with two Consuls, instead.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2020, 05:08 AM   #210
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 89,651
Originally Posted by beren View Post
I've argued this for years.
You've argued for years that a game dating back millennia is racist?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2020, 05:08 AM   #211
Myriad
Hyperthetical
 
Myriad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Betwixt
Posts: 16,394
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Okay. I absolutely accept this. My belief originated from the man who taught me chess, my dad. He was a world championship ******** artist, but as a young kid I believed every word he said.

One reason mirroring doesn't work is that many captures cannot be mirrored. If white's queen captures black's queen, it's not as if black can then mirror the capture with a queen that's no longer on the board.
__________________
A zÝmbie once bit my sister...
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2020, 05:13 AM   #212
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 28,883
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I made the point in the OP that I wished the ABC was not perusing something like this. Evidence shows that they thought about it to the extent of calling a chess expert. They didnít take it further most likely because of the reaction to the stupidity. Iím happy.

And Iím also enjoying the discussion about chess. Particularly from those who know nothing about the game.
Now, if only you can get Valentine fired for not fitting in to the stated aims of ABC's charter, eh?
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2020, 05:15 AM   #213
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 45,713
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
One reason mirroring doesn't work is that many captures cannot be mirrored. If white's queen captures black's queen, it's not as if black can then mirror the capture with a queen that's no longer on the board.
Makes sense, thanks.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2020, 06:02 AM   #214
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 7,185
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Surely white's advantage comes in part from having more moves?
If it weren't for zugzwang (being forced to make a move when only having options that make your situation worse) white would even have a provable advantage.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2020, 07:00 AM   #215
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 26,524
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
If it weren't for zugzwang (being forced to make a move when only having options that make your situation worse) white would even have a provable advantage.
But isn't that kind of like saying things would be different if the rules were different?
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2020, 07:42 AM   #216
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 7,185
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
But isn't that kind of like saying things would be different if the rules were different?
Things wouldn't be different, white does have an advantage. The difference is that it would be provably so - or at least it would be provable that white has no disadvantage, since white could always "waste" a move and adopt black's strategy, so it can do no worse than black. But that argument fails because of the existence of zugzwang (it is not necessarily the case that white can always "waste" a move).

ETA: just to be clear, whether white has an advantage or not is already, in principle, provable (there is only a finite game tree which could, in principle, be checked) but it's not a feasible proof method.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

Last edited by caveman1917; 27th June 2020 at 07:48 AM.
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2020, 03:21 PM   #217
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 14,633
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I agree. We should exile these immediately and replace them with two Consuls, instead.
Then we could replace the bishops with choir boys, the knights with jesters, the rooks with plague carts (so we can chant "Pie Jesu domine, dona eis requiem" and say "bring out your dead!) and make all the pawns into newts (and hope they don't get better!)



ETA: Because "Is Chest Racist?" is the sort of topic that only deserves to be discussed in a spoof current affairs program along with topics like "How to Recognise Different Types of Trees from Quite a Long Way Away" and "It's the Arts (or: The BBC Entry for the Zinc Stoat of Budapest)"
__________________
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Randy Bryce, U.S. Army veteran

If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !

Last edited by smartcooky; 27th June 2020 at 03:45 PM.
smartcooky is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2020, 02:26 PM   #218
Senex
Philosopher
 
Senex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The Connecticut School for Rumpology.
Posts: 5,962
I've done additional research on the grob.
Senex is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:19 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.