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Tags Jay Inslee , protest incidents , Seattle incidents , Seattle issues

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Old 30th June 2020, 02:23 PM   #361
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Oh that was awesome. "Former British Colony" had me laughing, it's such a different way for me to think about it.
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Old 30th June 2020, 02:25 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
"Blackgangland". Seattle?!? Array the laughing dogs.
Not just Seattle... Capitol Hill.
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Old 30th June 2020, 02:41 PM   #363
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Oh yea, Capitol Hill The vibrant center of Seattle’s LGBTQ community, gentrified, techie, super progressive yet those racist bastards are so unhappy with the BLM protests that they're suing the city over their failure to get the lowlife scum out of their neighbourhood.

Anyways, it appears the City is taking action, too bad it took the CHOP vigilante police force going all The Gauntlet on a pair of black kids to prompt it.
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Old 30th June 2020, 03:49 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
Well that was certainly a unique view of the current situation. Not exactly inaccurate, but an odd way of phrasing things. Is this how the rest of the world view the U.S.?
Oh, you would be horrified if you knew how the rest of the world views the US.
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Old 30th June 2020, 04:24 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Oh yea, Capitol Hill The vibrant center of Seattle’s LGBTQ community, gentrified, techie, super progressive yet those racist bastards are so unhappy with the BLM protests that they're suing the city over their failure to get the lowlife scum out of their neighbourhood.
Honestly can't tell if serious. Your framing here seems to exhibit a meaningful departure from the presentation in the article you linked to.
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Old 30th June 2020, 04:36 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
...

Should be simple enough, investigatively. Any slugs recovered from these alleged shots? Shell casings in the car? Residue on the fingers of the shot up guys? Short fast trip to showing they even could have shot that day based on residue alone. ...
Which is one reason why I said wait for the evidence to get sorted out.
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Old 30th June 2020, 04:41 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Oh that was awesome. "Former British Colony" had me laughing, it's such a different way for me to think about it.
You can just feel the UKians pining for the old days , when the Brits ruled the world. No doubt we will be in the same position when the Chinese take over.
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Old 30th June 2020, 04:50 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Honestly can't tell if serious. Your framing here seems to exhibit a meaningful departure from the presentation in the article you linked to.
Sure, it's a little over the top but it raises the question why these people who could be reasonably expected to support an action like CHOP when it's at a distance are up in arms when it's happening on their doorstep.

It's got to happen on somebody's doorstep, right.
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Old 30th June 2020, 07:55 PM   #369
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Static occupation is an endgame move.

This is another problem with America's sustained protest evolution never getting much past "skilled amateur" at best.

Starting from scratch, catching every break imaginable, a decade to build a coalition up and have a good amount of discipline and experience.

The city in question and it's history of protest I actually would start it in negative territory.

Anyways, it's showing up at the karate tournament without doing the "wax on, wax off" part. Taking territory that already has people on it means those people (and perhaps others as well) will use various amounts of "influence" available to support or resist that annexation. It's a well-worn tactic to draw an enemy into occupying territory you ceded to them so they get bogged down in the trials and tribulations of management. This reduces the momentum of the movement, it remains contained to a single location instead of moving to new places relevant to an emerging and changing discussion. This reduces exposure and recruitment. It increases hostility between the movement and the people in the occupied space. Long-term, the stresses (and increasing need for structure, i.e. positions of authority) can also create interpersonal frictions within the overall movement and its component factions and groups.

A static occupation is for when the defunct tyrant has already been toppled and is used to demonstrate that fact. When you already won the people and have assurances state security forces will stand down at the right moment, the officials are resigning in droves. When the government head is shouting into a phone not being listened to while the guards try to drag them to the waiting helicopter.

BLM and a few other groups have good vision and understanding of coordinated action. BLM is not remotely in the driver's seat in the kinds of actions that get all the air play.

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Old 1st July 2020, 04:13 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Disagreed. No guns were found, period. It was not "due to" any known cause, including your suggestion that they were stolen.

Should be simple enough, investigatively. Any slugs recovered from these alleged shots? Shell casings in the car? Residue on the fingers of the shot up guys? Short fast trip to showing they even could have shot that day based on residue alone.

Methinks the free love crowd, with their random militias, done ****** up.
This assumes any kind of thorough investigation occurs. The cops claim that the scene had been spoiled, which it certainly plausible. Any guns in the car might have been squirreled away. The shooting occurred in the wee hours of the morning, and the handful of people nearby that may have witnessed the alleged prior shooting from the SUV or the final shooting at the barricade may not be inclined to identify themselves or cooperate with the police. The cops may not even prioritize such an investigation.

It's entirely possible that a clearer picture of what happened never comes out, which is troubling. There is certainly the possibility that the fatal shooting was a case of mistaken identity, but it does seem likely based on reporting from within the CHOP that there was some car shooting indiscriminately into the area immediately prior to the shooting.

It seems these shootings are going to be used to justify a push to end the CHOP. It was only created because the cops couldn't behave themselves at protests and were pulled out of the area to end the nightly scandals of excessive force.

I'm curious if they will take a different approach if they resume a police presence in the area.
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Old 1st July 2020, 07:30 AM   #371
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The police seem to have reclaimed the area.

At least 13 arrested as Seattle police retake control of the East Precinct

Quote:
Police moved into the CHOP just before 5 a.m. and issued a dispersal order to any protestors in the area. Police tweeted at 5:20 a.m. that 10 people had been arrested. Another tweet at 5:30 a.m. said three other people were arrested at 12th and Pike.

"Anyone who remains in the area, or returns to the area, is subject to arrest," another SPD tweet said.
Live feed shows police and a few reporters, nobody else:

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I AGREE


That was fast, once the move to clear the area was made, it seemed to have been implemented quickly.
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Old 1st July 2020, 07:34 AM   #372
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Assuming the cops remain in the are and prevent the CHOP from setting back up, I wonder how the PD is going to handle a return of nightly protest marches that seem likely.

I suppose this block might get a little rest as the cops tear gas and beat protesters in other parts of of the city.
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Old 1st July 2020, 08:35 AM   #373
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So the walls of the CHOP playpen are coming down, too bad it took a murder to make the city take action.

Speaking of murder, any word of BLM setting up a fundraiser to help out with the medical bills of that 14 year old they shot ?
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Old 1st July 2020, 08:51 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Assuming the cops remain in the are and prevent the CHOP from setting back up, I wonder how the PD is going to handle a return of nightly protest marches that seem likely.

I suppose this block might get a little rest as the cops tear gas and beat protesters in other parts of of the city.
Or the protesters may have gotten so demoralized by their haven degenerating into a violent, chaotic mess (as predicted) that they might not want to protest anymore.
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Old 1st July 2020, 09:09 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Or the protesters may have gotten so demoralized by their haven degenerating into a violent, chaotic mess (as predicted) that they might not want to protest anymore.
It's not a far glance over to Portland, which continues to have nightly protests met by excessive violence by the police. Portland and Seattle are almost parallel cases, except Portland never had their demonstrations develop into a CHAZ situation. I see no reason why Seattle wouldn't just return to ordinary demonstrations that police escalate to chaos now that the CHOP is gone.

How these shake out is largely up to the cops. Will they go back to their indiscriminate gassing? Will they escalate, as Portland has, to targeting journalists for arrest? Time will tell.

The optimist in me says they will be smart enough to use their temporary PR advantage to adopt deescalation tactics. If they can be the PD that ended the chaotic CHOP and didn't blanket the streets with gas in the nights immediately afterwards, it would be a big win for them. It will take strong leadership to enforce such discipline on these cops that have shown themselves to be such unrepentant brutes.
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Old 1st July 2020, 11:46 AM   #376
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https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/01/us/se...ers/index.html
Quote:
Dustin Akers, who lives in an apartment complex in the heart of the CHOP area, took several videos of police clearing the zone around 5 a.m. Wednesday.

Living in the area has been "incredibly unstable and violent around the clock for the past two weeks," Akers told CNN.
"It started out well intentioned and then quickly took a turn for the worse. The occupied area is now empty with tents and supplies thrown everywhere."
He also shared an excerpt that his apartment complex, Packard Building Apartments, owned by Equity Residential, shared with residents on June 30.
"Since the occupation of the streets surrounding our building, tenants have been subjected to violence, threats, vandalism, noise, lewd conduct, public defecation, daily fights and limited access to the building," the complex wrote.
If people can't even keep a place clean, how can they be expected to lead any kind of reasonable life there?
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Old 1st July 2020, 11:56 AM   #377
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The Autonomous Collective of the Flies, indeed.
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Old 1st July 2020, 12:15 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
So the walls of the CHOP playpen are coming down, too bad it took a murder to make the city take action.

Speaking of murder, any word of BLM setting up a fundraiser to help out with the medical bills of that 14 year old they shot ?
Tell me, Mr Law and Order, do you see Trump and Barr adhering to the law? Curious minds want to know.
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Old 1st July 2020, 12:48 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Oh that was awesome. "Former British Colony" had me laughing, it's such a different way for me to think about it.
"Unrest and protests continued for a seventh straight day in the former British colony of the United States as the government vowed to use its military to end the demonstrations..."

"US President Donald Trump, who was ‘elected’ in 2016 despite the majority of votes going to his rival candidate, vowed in a speech to bring in the military to end the protests.
“I will deploy the United States military and quickly solve the problem for them,” Trump said in a national address."

"Religious fundamentalism and minority suppression has long been a problem in the former British colony.

The United States has had a long history of suppressing and persecuting its various ethnic minorities since the country gained its independence from the United Kingdom in 1776.

The treatment of its indigenous ‘Native Americans,’ its imported Asian and Black communities, and its Hispanic community has long been a source of friction.

American black minority groups were under a program similar to South Africa’s Apartheid policy until as recently as 1964."

Oh, how others see you!
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Old 1st July 2020, 12:48 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Tell me, Mr Law and Order, do you see Trump and Barr adhering to the law? Curious minds want to know.
One can be violently anti Trump but still think that CHOP was always doomed to fail.
A lot of sillliness on both sides of the spectrum on this issue.
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Old 1st July 2020, 12:50 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Assuming the cops remain in the are and prevent the CHOP from setting back up, I wonder how the PD is going to handle a return of nightly protest marches that seem likely.

I suppose this block might get a little rest as the cops tear gas and beat protesters in other parts of of the city.
Ah, sore your little Hippie commune di dnot last very long.
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Old 1st July 2020, 12:51 PM   #382
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CHOP is not Lord of the Flies. There is no resemblance.
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Old 1st July 2020, 12:52 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/01/us/se...ers/index.html

If people can't even keep a place clean, how can they be expected to lead any kind of reasonable life there?
Problem with CHOP was they wanted to be some kind of indenpendent country without assuming the reponsiblities that governments have to assume.
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Old 1st July 2020, 01:51 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Oh, you would be horrified if you knew how the rest of the world views the US.
The powerful and influential rarely care about what the weak and insignificant think.
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Old 1st July 2020, 01:57 PM   #385
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Post #3

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post

Should be a nice little holiday from police violence for these people who have been suffering over a week of violent suppression from the Seattle Police.


https://twitter.com/Papa_Cody/status...42039228608516
I've never had much expectations that the CHAZ was a long term viable project. Nor do I think anyone on the ground thought so either.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Problem with CHOP was they wanted to be some kind of indenpendent country without assuming the reponsiblities that governments have to assume.
You have a citation for that whopper? Even the anarchist daydreamers don't think a couple city blocks can be a truly independent zone within a larger city.

Recall exactly why the CHAZ was even possible. Cops pulled back because their handling of the protests was an unmitigated scandal. Their widespread use of teargas was an embarrassment to the city.

Unless tactics have changed, I assume the cops will resume being embarrassments and gassing people, just as the Portland PD has been doing in the interim.
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Old 1st July 2020, 02:21 PM   #386
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The police need more accountability to the people. Replacing them with people with even less accountability to the people isn't exactly a recipe for success.
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Old 1st July 2020, 02:32 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
One can be violently anti Trump but still think that CHOP was always doomed to fail.
A lot of sillliness on both sides of the spectrum on this issue.
That doesn't address what I was replying to. Stout was calling the BLM protesters murderers.

Trump has made ludicrous claims like the protesters were rioters and looters. As far as I know not a single business in the Zone was looted or burned.

You call that "silliness"?
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Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.
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Old 1st July 2020, 02:33 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Ah, sore your little Hippie commune di dnot last very long.
That's quite the imagination you have there.
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.
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Old 1st July 2020, 02:33 PM   #389
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Great article in the Bulwark: The Grim Lessons of CHOP
The article concludes:
Quote:
But reform means: lobbying for new rules and laws, electing new public officials, and doing the follow-up to make sure the new rules are actually implemented and lead to the intended results.

This is difficult and often unglamorous, but there is no better alternative. When you hand over the use of force to an unthinking, unaccountable mob and the self-appointed “voices” of the collective—well, we now have a perfect illustration of where that gets you.
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Old 1st July 2020, 02:36 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Problem with CHOP was they wanted to be some kind of indenpendent country without assuming the reponsiblities that governments have to assume.


They made some demands, most of which were never going to happen. That is not an "independent country". One of the reasons they changed the name from autonomous zone to occupied protest was to make it clear they were not looking for some independent self-run commune or country.
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.
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Old 1st July 2020, 03:21 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Sure, it's a little over the top but it raises the question why these people who could be reasonably expected to support an action like CHOP when it's at a distance are up in arms when it's happening on their doorstep.

It's got to happen on somebody's doorstep, right.
It doesn't seem that confusing to me. I support the concepts behind the [protests whole-heartedly. But I don't want them protesting in my front yard. Partly because... well, I'm not the person to be protesting in front of, there's not really much I personally can do. Also partly because it's disruptive and in my way - it's hard to back the car out so I can get to the store when there's a pile of protesters in the way. And also because it can be a bit intimidating - almost any protest involves strong feelings, so for someone who lives in the area, even if they support the ideal, it can be intimidating to be surrounded by people with very strong feelings and emotions. It's not like protests getting out of hand and turning into riots is a particularly rare kind of thing...
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Old 1st July 2020, 03:43 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
The powerful and influential rarely care about what the weak and insignificant think.
Tell China that it's "weak and insignificant". Go on, I dare you.
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Old 1st July 2020, 04:11 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Tell me, Mr Law and Order, do you see Trump and Barr adhering to the law? Curious minds want to know.
Ah the old but, but, but TRUMP ! argument. What about him, he's a douchebag. Who the hell is Barr ? Rosanne ? Connected to CHOP in any way ?

Were you planning on making an argument that this wasn't a murder ? A hunting accident of some sorts. Maybe there was a deer spotted wandering down the street and CHOP security decided to shoot the crap out of it so they could feed the masses and the SUV just happened to get in the way of the hail of bullets.

The Seattle police chief agrees that this was a murder and she's black.
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Old 1st July 2020, 04:24 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
It doesn't seem that confusing to me. I support the concepts behind the [protests whole-heartedly. But I don't want them protesting in my front yard. Partly because... well, I'm not the person to be protesting in front of, there's not really much I personally can do. Also partly because it's disruptive and in my way - it's hard to back the car out so I can get to the store when there's a pile of protesters in the way. And also because it can be a bit intimidating - almost any protest involves strong feelings, so for someone who lives in the area, even if they support the ideal, it can be intimidating to be surrounded by people with very strong feelings and emotions. It's not like protests getting out of hand and turning into riots is a particularly rare kind of thing...
Agreed. Nobody want's this on their doorstep no matter how progressive residents and business think they are because when push comes to shove a lot of those high ideals take a backseat to ideas like personal safety.

Speaking of strong feelings, and Seattle, and Capitol Hill did anybody catch that Karen in a GEO metro thing ? As a bonus, Ophelia Benson, I'm sure you all remember her.

Now that CHOP has met the chopping block.
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Old 1st July 2020, 04:34 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Ah the old but, but, but TRUMP ! argument. What about him, he's a douchebag. Who the hell is Barr ? Rosanne ? Connected to CHOP in any way ?
Oh come on. Even I know that William Barr is the United States Attorney General, and a Trump toadie through and through.
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Old 1st July 2020, 05:24 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Ah the old but, but, but TRUMP ! argument. What about him, he's a douchebag. Who the hell is Barr ? Rosanne ? Connected to CHOP in any way ?
Trump is taking credit for the city ending CHOP. McEninny said so today. The city moved because they were afraid Trump would send in the army.

So if they shut up about this, you might have a point. Otherwise you don't.

Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Were you planning on making an argument that this wasn't a murder ? A hunting accident of some sorts. Maybe there was a deer spotted wandering down the street and CHOP security decided to shoot the crap out of it so they could feed the masses and the SUV just happened to get in the way of the hail of bullets.

The Seattle police chief agrees that this was a murder and she's black.
I never said the two deaths weren't murders. I object to you conflating the protests with murderers.

One thing I heard today about those murders is they got attention because they moved to a white part of town. Had the murders occurred in the Central District, the media would not have paid as much attention.

I heard another thing today that fit with my POV. One of the leaders of the protest agreed it was time to end it because their message was getting lost.

BTW, there was no damage inside the police precinct. There was no looting. There has been no rioting.
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Old 1st July 2020, 05:31 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Oh come on. Even I know that William Barr is the United States Attorney General, and a Trump toadie through and through.
Thanks for the info. Was he in any way involved in CHOP or is his mention just another "hey look over there" type of distraction ?
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Old 1st July 2020, 05:41 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Thanks for the info. Was he in any way involved in CHOP or is his mention just another "hey look over there" type of distraction ?
Inasmuch as he is the most senior lawyer in the whole country, and a Trump cronie.
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Old 1st July 2020, 06:24 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Trump is taking credit for the city ending CHOP. McEninny said so today. The city moved because they were afraid Trump would send in the army.
Yes, I get it. Orange Man Bad ! Now Ms. Anarchy what's this got to do with adhering to the law ?

Quote:
I never said the two deaths weren't murders. I object to you conflating the protests with murderers.

One thing I heard today about those murders is they got attention because they moved to a white part of town. Had the murders occurred in the Central District, the media would not have paid as much attention.
Whew, I thought you were trying to downplay the seriousness of these executions, glad to see we're on the same page here. They were most defiantly connected to the protests as the security was in place because of the protests.

It's all over now though. Capitol Hill has been liberated much like how Europe was liberated during the D-Day invasion and the denizens of the area are now free to live their lives and conduct business unmolested.

Getting media attention was what this whole thing was all about.
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Old 1st July 2020, 07:28 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Post #3



I've never had much expectations that the CHAZ was a long term viable project. Nor do I think anyone on the ground thought so either.



You have a citation for that whopper? Even the anarchist daydreamers don't think a couple city blocks can be a truly independent zone within a larger city.

Recall exactly why the CHAZ was even possible. Cops pulled back because their handling of the protests was an unmitigated scandal. Their widespread use of teargas was an embarrassment to the city.

Unless tactics have changed, I assume the cops will resume being embarrassments and gassing people, just as the Portland PD has been doing in the interim.
You just plain old hate the police period.
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