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Old 31st January 2018, 10:04 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Honestly that would probably depend on where you are at the time. Odds are you wouldn't get hassled for your hairstyle in your everyday life unless you happened to cross paths with these people.
I don't actually believe these people exist in real life. No one is going to approach isissxn on the street and berate her for appropriation. They may do it online, from the safety of their keyboard, but that **** just doesn't fly in face to face interactions. Especially with super cool folks like isissxn. Like they could survive her stare of disappointment.

Which reminds me of a random chilling thought I have every now and then: at this very moment there is some guy sitting in a cubicle totally unaware that the thin little flimsy cubicle wall with a picture of his wife and kids from that one trip they took to Tampa in 2006 stapled to it is all that separates him from the genius and terror of Tragic Monkey sitting in the next cubicle.
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Old 31st January 2018, 10:06 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Which reminds me of a random chilling thought I have every now and then: at this very moment there is some guy sitting in a cubicle totally unaware that the thin little flimsy cubicle wall with a picture of his wife and kids from that one trip they took to Tampa in 2006 stapled to it is all that separates him from the genius and terror of Tragic Monkey sitting in the next cubicle.
That should be a hopeful thought.

It should motivate all of us to be nice to our cubicle neighbors
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Old 31st January 2018, 10:12 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
The important thing to remember is that wanting to keep your culture pure and exclusive to your own group is racist, while sharing your culture and adopting things from other cultures is racist.
Yeah dat. Oops. My bad. Oops again.
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Old 31st January 2018, 10:23 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
I hate to say it, but you are correct. We are rapidly approaching the point where you can do and say nothing without offending some group.
That's racist.
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Old 31st January 2018, 10:25 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I don't actually believe these people exist in real life. No one is going to approach isissxn on the street and berate her for appropriation. They may do it online, from the safety of their keyboard, but that **** just doesn't fly in face to face interactions.
Unfortunately you're wrong. It may not be mainstream, but let's just say that there's a lot of strange things going on in various university campuses.
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Old 31st January 2018, 10:26 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Which reminds me of a random chilling thought I have every now and then: at this very moment there is some guy sitting in a cubicle totally unaware that the thin little flimsy cubicle wall with a picture of his wife and kids from that one trip they took to Tampa in 2006 stapled to it is all that separates him from the genius and terror of Tragic Monkey sitting in the next cubicle.
Imagine how my coworkers feel. There aren't any walls between our work spaces.


MWAHAHAHAHA!
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Old 31st January 2018, 10:27 AM   #47
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This is one of many areas where the utter uselessness of the monodimensional, grossly oversimplified and decisive left / right paradigm really hacks me off.

I'm really quite left wing (if forced to label myself using the horrific and decisive left/right scale)

This sort of bollocks is exactly that, utter bollocks.

I'm sure you get my point.
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Old 31st January 2018, 10:35 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
This is one of many areas where the utter uselessness of the monodimensional, grossly oversimplified and decisive left / right paradigm really hacks me off.

I'm really quite left wing (if forced to label myself using the horrific and decisive left/right scale)

This sort of bollocks is exactly that, utter bollocks.

I'm sure you get my point.
Yeah, have to agree. To be serious for a bit, this is silly.

The whole idea behind racism is that the other races aren't worthy/good enough/whatever to enjoy the things of my race. This seems to be the same thing.

Now, that being said, I can see a problem with people trivializing things of cultural importance, but even there it's more worthy of a response of "that person has no class, I don't want to hang around them" rather than "Cultural appropriation! Stone him!". Even then, the best approach would be to educate, not berate. They may not know the meaning of something. And understanding each other is the key to figuring out how to get along (IMO).

But we've become a nation of outrage. We seem determined to die to a man (woman?) to hold the moral high ground, regardless of any actual elevation readings.

And, of course, if it's true that this was done just as a publicity stunt, then this shows both a lack of class in the stunt-er, and how easily manipulated the stunt-ees are.

Nobody wins .
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Old 31st January 2018, 11:20 AM   #49
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Cultural Appropriation overload: A Chinese woman (Faye Wong) performing a song in Cantonese which was originally performed in English by an Irish group, and she's wearing an American Indian headdress during the performance:

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I AGREE


I actually rather like her cover of the song, it plays on the end credits of the Chungking Express.

That said, if you spend a decent amount of time around American Indians, you'll find people who get annoyed by the use of American Indian imagery by new age people. New age people are not mocking American Indians, they are not using overt stereotypes, but they are claiming a sort of false kinship.

I understand why black people get annoyed with white people who have dreadlocks. Black people's hair forms into dreads easily, yet black people get criticized for having dreads and are often prohibited by employers. The catch being, that many black people try to claim dreads as an exclusively black thing, which it never was. It is wrong to not let black people wear dreads, but is also wrong to claim that dreads are exclusively black. Its one of those positions where it does not pay to be a moderate.
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Old 31st January 2018, 11:33 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Unfortunately you're wrong. It may not be mainstream, but let's just say that there's a lot of strange things going on in various university campuses.
That's why I limited my comment to real life.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Imagine how my coworkers feel. There aren't any walls between our work spaces.


MWAHAHAHAHA!
Again, I don't actually believe these people exist in real life.
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Old 31st January 2018, 11:43 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
That's why I limited my comment to real life.

Again, I don't actually believe these people exist in real life.
Ooh, Keith. Do I have a thread for you! Tackle the last couple of pages at your own risk.
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Old 31st January 2018, 11:52 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Ooh, Keith. Do I have a thread for you! Tackle the last couple of pages at your own risk.
No thanks. I don't doubt they post this crap, I just question whether they would actually say it in real life. You know, around the water cooler at work or out at drinks with their friends.
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Old 31st January 2018, 11:57 AM   #53
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I was kidding. That thread has devolved into a discussion about solipsism. It was in response to you saying that universities don't count as real life.
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Old 31st January 2018, 12:03 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Cultural Appropriation overload: A Chinese woman (Faye Wong) performing a song in Cantonese which was originally performed in English by an Irish group, and she's wearing an American Indian headdress during the performance:

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I AGREE


I actually rather like her cover of the song, it plays on the end credits of the Chungking Express.

That said, if you spend a decent amount of time around American Indians, you'll find people who get annoyed by the use of American Indian imagery by new age people. New age people are not mocking American Indians, they are not using overt stereotypes, but they are claiming a sort of false kinship.
Well, as with much of these controversies, there's a long history here, and it often is done to call on overt stereotypes - rap duo Outkast got in trouble for using similar imagery a while back.

Quote:
I understand why black people get annoyed with white people who have dreadlocks. Black people's hair forms into dreads easily, yet black people get criticized for having dreads and are often prohibited by employers.
For black women in particular, it goes beyond that. It's not just dreads, it's also braids, short afros, large fros, and shaved heads. Basically, the only choice is chemical relaxers - at which point they're attacked for "appropriating white hair" as well, by both some white people *and* by Hoteps. Basically, they can't win, which is why referring to braids as "Bo Derek" hair is bound to infuriate some people.
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Old 31st January 2018, 12:10 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
I hate to say it, but you are correct. We are rapidly approaching the point where you can do and say nothing without offending some group.

I suspect that such groups have always been around. What has changed is that they can each now climb onto a soapbox the size of the Internet.

And everyone who passes by gets to do the same thing, etc., etc., until the tripe they are whining about wends its way up from and then back down into even the smallest, most obscure of message boards.

Isn't modern technology wonderful?
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Old 31st January 2018, 12:15 PM   #56
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The jury's still out on whether the internet will turn out to be a net positive or negative.
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Old 31st January 2018, 12:16 PM   #57
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Old 31st January 2018, 12:36 PM   #58
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For those who don't recognize cultural appropriation, let's construct the most severe case of cultural appropriation using everyone's favorite target: Nazis.

Suppose during the holocaust, Nazis also adopted Yom Kippur as a national holiday and secularized it. Let's say they turned it into a day for all Germans to seek atonement with the Nazi state.

Is that worse than if they did not do it? The value that it is worse is cultural appropriation.

Everything else under cultural appropriation is some degree away from the above example based on time, level of abuse, and the solemnity of the thing appropriated.
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Old 31st January 2018, 01:08 PM   #59
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Question

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
For those who don't recognize cultural appropriation, let's construct the most severe case of cultural appropriation using everyone's favorite target: Nazis.

Suppose during the holocaust, Nazis also adopted Yom Kippur as a national holiday and secularized it. Let's say they turned it into a day for all Germans to seek atonement with the Nazi state.

Is that worse than if they did not do it? The value that it is worse is cultural appropriation.

Everything else under cultural appropriation is some degree away from the above example based on time, level of abuse, and the solemnity of the thing appropriated.
The offensiveness in your Nazi example is that the Nazis hated Jews. Poster isissxn, for instance, probably doesn't hate any culture who employs braiding. The hate is the defining feature.
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Old 31st January 2018, 01:12 PM   #60
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Old 31st January 2018, 01:12 PM   #61
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That is one weird Godwin.
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Old 31st January 2018, 01:12 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The offensiveness in your Nazi example is that the Nazis hated Jews. Poster isissxn, for instance, probably doesn't hate any culture who employs braiding. The hate is the defining feature.
That is not an element of cultural appropriation. The literature doesn't try and assess like/dislike. The important feature is the presence of colonialism or some other power imbalance.

However, if you feel the element of hate matters, and that the Nazi act of appropriation example was somehow an act of love (anything possible in a hypothetical), then that is fine. If it was an act of love, and you do not think it makes the situation worse in that case, then you are logically not accepting of the notion of cultural appropriation in many of the cases brought up today.

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Old 31st January 2018, 01:15 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That is one weird Godwin.
It is. It is also the most extreme example I have been able to devise

-Power imbalance? Genocide

-time since the power imbalance? concurrent

-The hypothetical thing appropriated? The most solemn holiday

-distortion of the original element? from religious to completely secular.

And you know what? I'm not entirely convinced that even the appropriation in that case is a negative.

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Old 31st January 2018, 01:26 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It is. It is also the most extreme example I have been able to devise

-Power imbalance? Genocide

-time since the power imbalance? concurrent

-The hypothetical thing appropriated? The most solemn holiday

-distortion of the original element? from religious to completely secular.
If you maintained enough elements and symbolism of the original, that would work.

The glorification of Norse mythology and symbolism by white supremacists is an example of cultural appropriation that many white people might understand.

White supremacists are killing in the name of an ancient Nordic religion

The new religion of choice for white supremacists

The use of the Hindu/Buddhist swastika by the Nazis is another example. It is still in use in those religions, but that use still makes many non-Hindus and non-Buddhists uncomfortable. Thanks to the Nazis, Hindus and Buddhists stand to get criticized for the use of a symbol that predated the Nazis by a millennia or more.
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Old 31st January 2018, 01:27 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
That is not an element of cultural appropriation. The literature doesn't try and assess like/dislike. The important feature is the presence of colonialism or some other power imbalance.
OK, but something as simple as a hairstyle is not proprietary to a culture per se. I don't see the exertion of power over anyone by how one arranges their hair. It is not a position statement or power play. Isissxn wearing her hair in a convenient fashion is independent of asserting dominance over anyone. Seeing such a power play verges on paranoia
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Old 31st January 2018, 01:29 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
OK, but something as simple as a hairstyle is not proprietary to a culture per se. I don't see the exertion of power over anyone by how one arranges their hair. It is not a position statement or power play. Isissxn wearing her hair in a convenient fashion is independent of asserting dominance over anyone. Seeing such a power play verges on paranoia
The appropriation doesn't have to be part of the imbalance (in the orthodox argument for cultural appropriation, you are free to disagree). It is defined as a power imbalance existing, not necessarily that the appropriated object has to be an element of that.
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Old 31st January 2018, 01:38 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The appropriation doesn't have to be part of the imbalance (in the orthodox argument for cultural appropriation, you are free to disagree). It is defined as a power imbalance existing, not necessarily that the appropriated object has to be an element of that.
Cultural appropriation is defined as a power imbalance existing? I would see those as different matters.
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Old 31st January 2018, 01:40 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Cultural appropriation is defined as a power imbalance existing? I would see those as different matters.
let me clarify. A requirement for cultural appropriation is the a power imbalance (or colonial element) exists. It is not a requirement that the appropriated element is part of the power imbalance.
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Old 31st January 2018, 01:49 PM   #69
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Ugh - Bob, I said pretty clearly in my opening post that I understand the basics of cultural appropriation, even listed a few examples. My question was about where exactly the line is, and whether or not corn-row style hair braiding is (or should be) commonly considered to fall over it. As is your wont, you have posted stuff that has almost nothing to do with determining that. (Is there "the presence of colonialism" in braiding one's hair close to the scalp?) But you did manage to bring Nazis into it, so thanks for that.

Everyone - thanks for your input! I'm relieved to hear this sort of overreaction is mostly confined to drama-seeking on social media. I was a little concerned because I've become somewhat gun-shy lately when it comes to pop social issues. As some of you may know, I'm back at school studying business. But because it's university, I have to re-take a bunch of gen-ed classes in order to pursue the new degree. So I got stuck taking a Woman's Studies course this semester to fulfill a base sociology requirement. It's been fine, definitely some interesting stuff, but my age is really showing. I'm only nine or ten years older than most of the other students in the class, but apparently that's been a crucial decade. They're all sentient offense-seeking missiles, keyboard warriors, and the like. I've been sticking my foot in it all over the place in classroom discussions, completely without meaning to.

So I started thinking, the last thing I need is to show up with braids one day and have them think I'm a racist as well as (I guess) a gender traitor. Anyway, while it's good to hear that the WORLD hasn't gone mad, I think I'll stick to unbraided hair at least when I attend this particular class. It annoys me that I ought to, but it seems like a wise choice. I guess if I have a bad hair day, I just have to stick my hair up in a bun like a proper white spinster. No chopsticks either - that would probably be even worse.

ETA - It is interesting to note that the majority of people grousing about this appear to be white. If a black person came up and told me they were offended by the style, I'd at least be willing to listen to their reasons politely. But does that happen much? (All the little activists in my class are white women. The entire class of 30 is white, all but 3 are female, and all but 4 are under 21. HELP.)

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Old 31st January 2018, 01:50 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
let me clarify. A requirement for cultural appropriation is the a power imbalance (or colonial element) exists. It is not a requirement that the appropriated element is part of the power imbalance.
The problem I have is that such a theoretical imbalance occurs everywhere. Can wealthy people not wear jeans because of a power imbalance with the poor? I can't even define what a white culture is with enough accuracy to claim it has power over another culture, or even what that power would be (social, political, economic, physical, etc)
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Old 31st January 2018, 01:52 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Ugh - Bob, I said pretty clearly in my opening post that I understand the basics of cultural appropriation, even listed a few examples. My question was about where exactly the line is, and whether or not corn-row style hair braiding is (or should be) commonly considered to fall over it. As is your wont, you have posted stuff that has almost nothing to do with determining that. (Is there "the presence of colonialism" in braiding one's hair close to the scalp?) But you did manage to bring Nazis into it, so thanks for that.
It wasn't directed at you. Others demonstrated a misunderstanding of appropriation basics.
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Old 31st January 2018, 01:55 PM   #72
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Isissxn: pretty sure your chosen hairstyle is nowhere near the line of being offensive by anyone's standard. Unless you showed up in an afro wig or something that might be seen as mocking
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Old 31st January 2018, 01:55 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The problem I have is that such a theoretical imbalance occurs everywhere. Can wealthy people not wear jeans because of a power imbalance with the poor? I can't even define what a white culture is with enough accuracy to claim it has power over another culture, or even what that power would be (social, political, economic, physical, etc)
I'm only contributing corrections on what the argument people who think this stuff actually think. Defense of it will have to be left to them.
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Old 31st January 2018, 02:00 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm only contributing corrections on what the argument people who think this stuff actually think. Defense of it will have to be left to them.
And the Bobbing is officially upon this thread.
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Old 31st January 2018, 02:02 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm only contributing corrections on what the argument people who think this stuff actually think. Defense of it will have to be left to them.
Oh, I understand what they think. Just don't get why they think it. It defies reason from any viewpoint I can see
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Old 31st January 2018, 02:11 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The literature doesn't try and assess like/dislike. The important feature is the presence of colonialism or some other power imbalance.
So basically cultural appropriation means 'something to blame white people for'?
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Old 31st January 2018, 02:11 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
And the Bobbing is officially upon this thread.
I'm supposed to defend a position that isnt mine?
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Old 31st January 2018, 02:21 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Ugh - Bob, I said pretty clearly in my opening post that I understand the basics of cultural appropriation, even listed a few examples. My question was about where exactly the line is, and whether or not corn-row style hair braiding is (or should be) commonly considered to fall over it. As is your wont, you have posted stuff that has almost nothing to do with determining that. (Is there "the presence of colonialism" in braiding one's hair close to the scalp?) But you did manage to bring Nazis into it, so thanks for that.

Everyone - thanks for your input! I'm relieved to hear this sort of overreaction is mostly confined to drama-seeking on social media. I was a little concerned because I've become somewhat gun-shy lately when it comes to pop social issues. As some of you may know, I'm back at school studying business. But because it's university, I have to re-take a bunch of gen-ed classes in order to pursue the new degree. So I got stuck taking a Woman's Studies course this semester to fulfill a base sociology requirement. It's been fine, definitely some interesting stuff, but my age is really showing. I'm only nine or ten years older than most of the other students in the class, but apparently that's been a crucial decade. They're all sentient offense-seeking missiles, keyboard warriors, and the like. I've been sticking my foot in it all over the place in classroom discussions, completely without meaning to.

So I started thinking, the last thing I need is to show up with braids one day and have them think I'm a racist as well as (I guess) a gender traitor. Anyway, while it's good to hear that the WORLD hasn't gone mad, I think I'll stick to unbraided hair at least when I attend this particular class. It annoys me that I ought to, but it seems like a wise choice. I guess if I have a bad hair day, I just have to stick my hair up in a bun like a proper white spinster. No chopsticks either - that would probably be even worse.

ETA - It is interesting to note that the majority of people grousing about this appear to be white. If a black person came up and told me they were offended by the style, I'd at least be willing to listen to their reasons politely. But does that happen much? (All the little activists in my class are white women. The entire class of 30 is white, all but 3 are female, and all but 4 are under 21. HELP.)
You know what? Those sound like exactly the kind of people who would take offence at a hair style.
Showing their ideological purity by kicking an outsider (something I've always associated more with religious conservatism than with progressivism, but hey, apparently there's plenty of ******** everywhere)

If they get an excuse to reaffirm their position in the group by identifying and shaming someone who doesn't belong, they just might take it.

I still say you shouldn't worry about these people any more than you'd worry about folks who want to ban Harry Potter for encouraging devil worship.
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Old 31st January 2018, 02:24 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I don't actually believe these people exist in real life. No one is going to approach isissxn on the street and berate her for appropriation. They may do it online, from the safety of their keyboard, but that **** just doesn't fly in face to face interactions. Especially with super cool folks like isissxn. Like they could survive her stare of disappointment.

Which reminds me of a random chilling thought I have every now and then: at this very moment there is some guy sitting in a cubicle totally unaware that the thin little flimsy cubicle wall with a picture of his wife and kids from that one trip they took to Tampa in 2006 stapled to it is all that separates him from the genius and terror of Tragic Monkey sitting in the next cubicle.


That hypothetical guy has no idea how lucky he is.
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Old 31st January 2018, 02:26 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm supposed to defend a position that isnt mine?
I'm not in the mood for semantic games today. If you brought the topic up in good faith, fine. My mistake.

Now watch out, or I'll turn this into a "post pics of your hairstyle" thread.

Last edited by Butter!; 31st January 2018 at 02:28 PM.
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