ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 31st January 2018, 02:30 PM   #81
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 19,163
Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I saw on Yahoo News that a lot of social-mediaites are upset with Kim Kardashian for her new corn-row style braids hairstyle. Is this really verboten now too?

I'm asking because I have very long, thick, occasionally unmanageable hair. I braid it in similar style from time to time, and have never really given doing so a thought. It looks nice, it keeps everything in place, and when the braids come out, I get awesome puffy curls for a day or two. I've been doing it since I was a little kid. Do I have to stop? How common is this attitude? I don't want to offend anybody, but it seems ridiculous to me.

I've come around to basically understanding the concept of cultural appropriation as it applies to things like native dress, ceremonial jewelry, traditional rituals, and the like. But aren't we broadening the definition a bit too much by including braids? I don't think Africans are the only culture who historically braided their hair. (I haven't looked into the history though - the hairstory?). In any case, I'm not trying to emulate any particular style. I was just doing something I like, something that works for me.

What does everyone here think? (Oh, and can we PLEASE be nice? My question is asked in utterly good faith.)

I think the following quote best expresses the common themes in complaints about braids as appropriation.

http://www.ebony.com/style/history-box-braids

Quote:
For us, it’s never been just hair mainly because our hair has never solely been ours to begin with. Black women have been told our natural kinks, coils, curls, waves and everything in between aren’t beautiful and should be changed to meet European beauty standards. Yet, when the Kardashian-Jenner clan or anyone non-Black wears hairstyles that first appeared on Black women, such as cornrows, Bantu knots or a Yaki-textured ponytail, it’s considered “new” and “chic” in the mainstream media and renamed in many instances. However, these same hairstyles are often deemed as “ghetto” and “unprofessional” when the person is Black.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st January 2018, 02:46 PM   #82
Butter!
Rough Around the Edges
 
Butter!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 6,723
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I think the following quote best expresses the common themes in complaints about braids as appropriation.

http://www.ebony.com/style/history-box-braids
Good find! That offered a bit more perspective.

Well, my hair IS kinky and wavy and all the rest (obviously not to the extent of many African women's hair, but I do use hair products from that Mixed Chicks line out of necessity, even though I'm pretty damn sure I'm not actually mixed). That's why my mom started braiding my hair when I was little. I refused to have it cut, and it was just difficult to manage sometimes. As I got older, I tried wearing it shorter, and I hated how it looked. So I welcomed the hassle of dealing with long hair back into my life.

So it sounds like my reasoning is pretty sound even by the standards of the Ebony piece. I can understand the frustrations of the author as laid out. However, it sounds like we're braiding our hair for a lot of the same reasons - that is, convenience.

To me, it seems like the author's actual beef should be with societal standards of beauty and professionalism, rather than with individual white women's hairstyles.

Last edited by Butter!; 31st January 2018 at 02:50 PM.
Butter! is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st January 2018, 03:04 PM   #83
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,976
Wear whatever you want. My gawd what are we becoming?

If there is any time to not give a crap what anyone thinks about you it's now because people are outraged by everything. Might as well go for it!

Ya, Trebuchet, I wish I had hair too.

Outrage makes news. As Dr. Keith said, nobody cares about this garbage in the real world. Anyone who does isn't worth listening to anyways.

Do the braids, throw a yamaka on top, moccasins on the feet, a shirt that says Go **** Yourself", spark up a doob, go for a walk and tell anyone who cares to read your shirt.
__________________
Franklin understands certain kickbacks you obtain unfairly are legal liabilities; however, a risky deed's almost never detrimental despite extra external pressures.
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st January 2018, 03:28 PM   #84
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 20,537
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Wear whatever you want. My gawd what are we becoming?

If there is any time to not give a crap what anyone thinks about you it's now because people are outraged by everything. Might as well go for it!

Ya, Trebuchet, I wish I had hair too.

Outrage makes news. As Dr. Keith said, nobody cares about this garbage in the real world. Anyone who does isn't worth listening to anyways.

Do the braids, throw a yamaka on top, moccasins on the feet, a shirt that says Go **** Yourself", spark up a doob, go for a walk and tell anyone who cares to read your shirt.
There is much wisdom in here, although I'm loathe to say I agree with the suggestions at the end without referencing local laws on the public smoking of said doob.

Also, I'll distance myself form you and treb on the bald thing. I like that my hair routine is so freaking simple and looks pretty damn good. Finding the right sunscreen to use daily is key, though.
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st January 2018, 03:47 PM   #85
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 19,163
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Wear whatever you want. My gawd what are we becoming?

If there is any time to not give a crap what anyone thinks about you it's now because people are outraged by everything. Might as well go for it!

Ya, Trebuchet, I wish I had hair too.

Outrage makes news. As Dr. Keith said, nobody cares about this garbage in the real world. Anyone who does isn't worth listening to anyways.

Do the braids, throw a yamaka on top, moccasins on the feet, a shirt that says Go **** Yourself", spark up a doob, go for a walk and tell anyone who cares to read your shirt.
Did you read the piece from ebony? Do you not feel they are justified in being upset by that turn of events?
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st January 2018, 06:43 PM   #86
sadhatter
Philosopher
 
sadhatter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,694
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Did you read the piece from ebony? Do you not feel they are justified in being upset by that turn of events?
No.

Main reason being I saw that same sentiment in the punk community, I called the people ******** then and I call them ******** now. What someone wants to wear (as long as we are talking non function filling items. I don't support wrist knives or worn pistols) is none of your concern. If someone wearing something you like bugs you, that is a personal flaw on your part. And it is my opinion that it is good evidence the person complaining is a knob.
sadhatter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st January 2018, 07:04 PM   #87
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 19,163
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
No.

Main reason being I saw that same sentiment in the punk community, I called the people ******** then and I call them ******** now. What someone wants to wear (as long as we are talking non function filling items. I don't support wrist knives or worn pistols) is none of your concern. If someone wearing something you like bugs you, that is a personal flaw on your part. And it is my opinion that it is good evidence the person complaining is a knob.
Anything I wish to be my concern is my concern. That is how concern works.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 31st January 2018 at 07:06 PM.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st January 2018, 08:18 PM   #88
sadhatter
Philosopher
 
sadhatter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,694
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Anything I wish to be my concern is my concern. That is how concern works.
I believe I stated my opinion on that line of logic right in my post. So no real need to repeat myself.
sadhatter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st January 2018, 08:49 PM   #89
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 25,034
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I can actually see it as a mistake - the first time in the family. Hair is one of those obnoxious issues among black women, for some obvious reasons - and when you combine it with social media, *and* praise for Bo Derek's hair style in "10" which was supposed to be gorgeous (I personally don't think it worked for her, but whatever), you're going to get a hostile reaction, whether deserved or not.
Thanks for your response. I went and read those links you posted.
I'm sympathetic to all of those complaints, and they seem to be legitimate complaints. I hope those companies reconsider. It sounds like the military already has reconsidered. I support all of those women. But I see the issue around cultural appropriation as a different issue though. At least when it comes to hairstyles. Now, if I were to dress up as a Native American and pretend to be one, I can see how that would be offensive and I would not defend that person. But a punk rocker with a mohawk hairstyle (which is a misnomer because the actual Mohawks didn't wear their hair like that) is clearly not trying to pass themselves off as an actual Native American.
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st January 2018, 08:52 PM   #90
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 19,163
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
I believe I stated my opinion on that line of logic right in my post. So no real need to repeat myself.
And your post makes no sense. Just because it is a character flaw, doesn't mean it isn't my concern. I have many character flaws, one of them is making things my concern that I probably shouldn't. Those things are still my concern.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st January 2018, 08:55 PM   #91
Hercules56
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,985
Many Asians dye their hair and curl it. Is this also cultural appropriation?

They also often get surgery to remove their epicanthic fold, more cultural appropriation?
Hercules56 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st January 2018, 09:00 PM   #92
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 19,163
Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Many Asians dye their hair and curl it. Is this also cultural appropriation?

They also often get surgery to remove their epicanthic fold, more cultural appropriation?
Are you asking because you don't know the criteria, or you are having trouble applying it?
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st January 2018, 09:02 PM   #93
Hercules56
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,985
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
Hercules56 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st January 2018, 09:06 PM   #94
sadhatter
Philosopher
 
sadhatter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,694
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
And your post makes no sense. Just because it is a character flaw, doesn't mean it isn't my concern. I have many character flaws, one of them is making things my concern that I probably shouldn't. Those things are still my concern.
And like any flaw it should be worked on not *********** reveled in.
sadhatter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st January 2018, 10:51 PM   #95
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,747
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Thanks for your response. I went and read those links you posted.
I'm sympathetic to all of those complaints, and they seem to be legitimate complaints. I hope those companies reconsider. It sounds like the military already has reconsidered. I support all of those women. But I see the issue around cultural appropriation as a different issue though. At least when it comes to hairstyles. Now, if I were to dress up as a Native American and pretend to be one, I can see how that would be offensive and I would not defend that person. But a punk rocker with a mohawk hairstyle (which is a misnomer because the actual Mohawks didn't wear their hair like that) is clearly not trying to pass themselves off as an actual Native American.
Agreed - I'm not judging the people reacting either way, I'm simply stating that this sort of thing *will* get a reaction on social media. And to be honest, Kim K. will be perfectly fine regardless, and at the very least should have known by now that she would get some bad reactions - getting social media reaction is exactly what her career is built on in the first place.

I've said before that appropriating aspects of another culture is, in and of itself, neutral. Some people add an explicit reference to erasing the contributions of others to the definition of "cultural appropriation" to make it clear what they object to. But the thing is, experiences like the ones I linked to are actually pretty common - and the fact that quite a few women have hair that falls out in patches when chemically treated doesn't help matters. It's an emotional reaction, sure - but there are times where people don't care about the subtleties any more, they're just going to respond in anger, the end.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st February 2018, 12:42 AM   #96
Planigale
Illuminator
 
Planigale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: 49 North
Posts: 4,142
I am waiting for the campaign that the New York St Patrick's day march is cultural appropriation and only English* people should be allowed to participate.

*St. Patrick being English, though since he is the patron saint of Ireland we could extend things and allow the Irish to participate.
Planigale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st February 2018, 01:59 AM   #97
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,468
Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Many Asians dye their hair and curl it. Is this also cultural appropriation?

They also often get surgery to remove their epicanthic fold, more cultural appropriation?
The former, not so much. The latter is pretty much textbook cultural appropriation taken to the level of obsession.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st February 2018, 02:15 AM   #98
Eddie Dane
Philosopher
 
Eddie Dane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,681
Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
It's called soft power.

If a country/civilisation is successful, other civilisations will start to copy its language, art, dress style, music etc.

Black people are tremendously successful in Western culture. Hip-hop has overtaken pop music in revenue now.

It's like the West complaining that China has copied its dress style and music.

Of course, as a white man, I profusely apologise for Vanilla Ice whenever I get the chance. But African Americans should realise that you don't get to be influential without influencing people.
__________________
Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh!
Eddie Dane is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st February 2018, 08:38 AM   #99
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 19,987
Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Many Asians dye their hair and curl it. Is this also cultural appropriation?

They also often get surgery to remove their epicanthic fold, more cultural appropriation?

Don't many black ladies straighten their hair or wear hairpieces or extensions to make their hair more like that of white ladies?

Is that also unacceptable cultural appropriation?



I find the the whole non-issue to be a very, very weird thing to highlight.




ETA: Also, the word 'appropriation' bothers me. Nothing has been taken. No-one, anywhere, has lost the use of anything because it's been 'appropriated'. The word should be 'copied' or 'imitated'.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]

Last edited by 3point14; 1st February 2018 at 08:40 AM.
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st February 2018, 08:40 AM   #100
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 19,163
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Don't many black ladies straighten their hair or wear hairpieces or extensions to make their hair more like that of white ladies?

Is that also unacceptable cultural appropriation?



I find the the whole non-issue to be a very, very weird thing to highlight.
It isn't cultural appropriation by definition because of the direction of the power imbalance. It could be something else (you can call it gazorpazorp if you want).

I think it is technically assimilation.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 1st February 2018 at 08:42 AM.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st February 2018, 08:41 AM   #101
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 19,163
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
It's called soft power.

If a country/civilisation is successful, other civilisations will start to copy its language, art, dress style, music etc.

Black people are tremendously successful in Western culture. Hip-hop has overtaken pop music in revenue now.

It's like the West complaining that China has copied its dress style and music.

Of course, as a white man, I profusely apologise for Vanilla Ice whenever I get the chance. But African Americans should realise that you don't get to be influential without influencing people.
If it was copied because of a culture's success or because it was taken as part of exploitation of a colonial relationship, how can you tell?
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st February 2018, 08:44 AM   #102
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,747
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Don't many black ladies straighten their hair or wear hairpieces or extensions to make their hair more like that of white ladies?
Again, no.

(And this is exactly the sort of question that, as I said before, many black women find obnoxious, given that they often fave outright discrimination for *not* doing so)
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st February 2018, 08:53 AM   #103
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 19,987
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Again, no.

(And this is exactly the sort of question that, as I said before, many black women find obnoxious, given that they often fave outright discrimination for *not* doing so)

I'm afraid I don't accept that, I really don't.

I really cannot see how it can be a one way street.

I don't understand the ire of black ladies, or white ladies on behalf of black ladies, when someone copies their hairstyle. It's hair. Most of us have it. Restrictions on how anyone chooses to wear their hair are simply not acceptable. It's *********** hair.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st February 2018, 08:53 AM   #104
Eddie Dane
Philosopher
 
Eddie Dane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,681
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If it was copied because of a culture's success or because it was taken as part of exploitation of a colonial relationship, how can you tell?
Having a dead African woman stuffed and put on display (and yes, that happened) might qualify as that.

Paying someone millions of bucks for their music and performances and broadcasting this success to millions of people and then kids emulating their fashion choices, not so much IMHO.

The success of the Beatles in the US was a sign of British pop-music success and cultural influence, not a symbolic exercise by the American public to show American domination over Britain.
__________________
Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh!
Eddie Dane is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st February 2018, 08:55 AM   #105
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 19,163
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Having a dead African woman stuffed and put on display (and yes, that happened) might qualify as that.

Paying someone millions of bucks for their music and performances and broadcasting this success to millions of people and then kids emulating their fashion choices, not so much IMHO.

The success of the Beatles in the US was a sign of British pop-music success and cultural influence, not a symbolic exercise by the American public to show American domination over Britain.
Which is why your UK example is labeled cultural exchange by the community that examines these issues.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st February 2018, 08:56 AM   #106
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 19,987
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Having a dead African woman stuffed and put on display (and yes, that happened) might qualify as that.

Paying someone millions of bucks for their music and performances and broadcasting this success to millions of people and then kids emulating their fashion choices, not so much IMHO.

The success of the Beatles in the US was a sign of British pop-music success and cultural influence, not a symbolic exercise by the American public to show American domination over Britain.

Damnit, do I have to throw away my copy of Graceland? Can still listen to Nat, a black man singing white music? Should I cast away my UB40 albums?


Isn't the general idea to become closer, not further away? How can we achieve that when some subset, any subset of people has the attitude "This is ours, you can't use it"?
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st February 2018, 08:57 AM   #107
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,747
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'm afraid I don't accept that, I really don't.

I really cannot see how it can be a one way street.

I don't understand the ire of black ladies, or white ladies on behalf of black ladies, when someone copies their hairstyle. It's hair. Most of us have it. Restrictions on how anyone chooses to wear their hair are simply not acceptable. It's *********** hair.
"I don't accept what you said", followed by a denunciation of "restrictions on how anyone chooses to wear their hair"...

...in defense of restrictions on how black women choose to wear their hair.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st February 2018, 08:58 AM   #108
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 19,987
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
"I don't accept what you said", followed by a denunciation of "restrictions on how anyone chooses to wear their hair"...

...in defense of restrictions on how black women choose to wear their hair.

At what point did I state there should be any restrictions on the way anyone wears their hair? That's exactly the opposite of my point.

Did you miss the bit that said:

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Restrictions on how anyone chooses to wear their hair are simply not acceptable. It's *********** hair.
I hope you read that. You certainly quoted it.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]

Last edited by 3point14; 1st February 2018 at 08:59 AM.
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st February 2018, 08:58 AM   #109
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 19,163
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Damnit, do I have to throw away my copy of Graceland? Can still listen to Nat, a black man singing white music? Should I cast away my UB40 albums?


Isn't the general idea to become closer, not further away? How can we achieve that when some subset, any subset of people has the attitude "This is ours, you can't use it"?
How many pages of reading are you willing to invest in learning about the issue and having your questions answered?
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st February 2018, 09:01 AM   #110
Pterodactyl
Graduate Poster
 
Pterodactyl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,233
People dealing actual problems in their lives won't expend the energy to even pretend to be outraged about such nonsense.

When events like these make headlines, I take it as evidence we're actually doing pretty good as a society.
Pterodactyl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st February 2018, 09:01 AM   #111
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 19,987
The world is rife with racial injustice, I accept that this is the case and decry the situation.


This is not the fight to pick if one doesn't want to give raving, right wing* racists an excuse to ignore the actual issues.







*with usual caveats
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st February 2018, 09:06 AM   #112
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 90,173
Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
People dealing actual problems in their lives won't expend the energy to even pretend to be outraged about such nonsense.

When events like these make headlines, I take it as evidence we're actually doing pretty good as a society.
Indeed. Maybe we've become too comfortable.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st February 2018, 09:16 AM   #113
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,747
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
At what point did I state there should be any restrictions on the way anyone wears their hair? That's exactly the opposite of my point.

Did you miss the bit that said:



I hope you read that. You certainly quoted it.
I did. The problem is that the anger aimed at Kim is precisely because black women face many restrictions on their hair, including:

1) a wide variety of employers who discriminate against black women who do not straighten their hair, and see any other hair style as "dirty" and "unprofessional", and

2) people who then attack black women for straightening their hair in the face of this discrimination, yet defend white people who use the same hair styles that, on black women, are seen as "dirty" and "unprofessional".

You have placed yourself in category 2.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st February 2018, 09:18 AM   #114
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 90,173
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I did. The problem is that the anger aimed at Kim is precisely because black women face many restrictions on their hair, including:

1) a wide variety of employers who discriminate against black women who do not straighten their hair, and see any other hair style as "dirty" and "unprofessional", and

2) people who then attack black women for straightening their hair in the face of this discrimination, yet defend white people who use the same hair styles that, on black women, are seen as "dirty" and "unprofessional".

You have placed yourself in category 2.
Wait a second. Who does any of that?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st February 2018, 09:21 AM   #115
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 19,987
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I did. The problem is that the anger aimed at Kim is precisely because black women face many restrictions on their hair, including:

1) a wide variety of employers who discriminate against black women who do not straighten their hair, and see any other hair style as "dirty" and "unprofessional", and

2) people who then attack black women for straightening their hair in the face of this discrimination, yet defend white people who use the same hair styles that, on black women, are seen as "dirty" and "unprofessional".

You have placed yourself in category 2.
I haven't attacked anyone as far as I'm aware. Can you quote the bit you believe is an attack and I will attempt to explain what I was trying to mean. Both of the situations you describe above are unacceptable. Neither are situations I was referring to when I say

"Restrictions on how anyone chooses to wear their hair are simply not acceptable. It's *********** hair."

That statement was highlighted to you and you seem to choose to read it as "restrictions on how white people wear their hair are not acceptable." Which is, and I can't believe I'm having to point this out not what I wrote

I drew a parallel between, and this is a gross oversimplification, black ladies having white looking hair and white ladies having black looking hair and pointed out that neither of these things is remotely troublesome. Neither, I hasnte to add, is black ladies having black looking hair or white ladies having white looking hair.

Again, it's *********** hair, it's not life, liberty, health or sanity now is it?


Now, cut me a little slack and please point out which bit of my writing is advocating restrictions on how anyone wears their hair and I will either learn how I have mis-spoken and correct myself or I will point out that you're reading into my writings stuff that really isn't there at all.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]

Last edited by 3point14; 1st February 2018 at 09:23 AM.
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st February 2018, 09:23 AM   #116
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 25,733
I got over this a long time ago by just rejecting the entire concept of "a culture" as some singular thing.

It seems that as soon as we as a species agreed that you couldn't force our opinions on other people we immediately tried to get out of it by renaming our opinions other things.

Culture, belief, "strong personal conviction", and the like are all just attempts to rebrand "I have an opinion" into something more grandiose.
__________________
- I don't know how to tell you that facts exist
- I don't know how to convince you that you should care about other people
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st February 2018, 05:20 PM   #117
sadhatter
Philosopher
 
sadhatter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,694
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It isn't cultural appropriation by definition because of the direction of the power imbalance. It could be something else (you can call it gazorpazorp if you want).

I think it is technically assimilation.
Why is it the sjw crowd seems obsessed with unilateral rules?

Unilateral rules are the very issue, always have been. The issue isn't that they are pointed in the wrong direction is that they are *********** wrong in premise.

I don't respect someone who is angry their people don't get to be bullies. I respect someone who figures out what is at the core of bullying and fights against it.
sadhatter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st February 2018, 05:27 PM   #118
sadhatter
Philosopher
 
sadhatter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,694
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'm afraid I don't accept that, I really don't.

I really cannot see how it can be a one way street.

I don't understand the ire of black ladies, or white ladies on behalf of black ladies, when someone copies their hairstyle. It's hair. Most of us have it. Restrictions on how anyone chooses to wear their hair are simply not acceptable. It's *********** hair.
This.

I would literally put my life on the line for someone's right to wear whatever hair they want (again ,in regards to fashion, I'm not advocating tactical hairdos). I disrespect and condemn anyone that would tell someone what hair to have.

I don't care if that person is wearing a swastika and yelling at someone to shave their dreads, or if they are tenth generation Jamaican telling the same thing to a white guy.

**** both of them.

And if you somehow think you are promoting equality by only recognizing one of those guys as an *******, you don't understand the real definition of equality, or the colequial definiton of *******.
sadhatter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st February 2018, 05:51 PM   #119
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,976
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
There is much wisdom in here, although I'm loathe to say I agree with the suggestions at the end without referencing local laws on the public smoking of said doob.

Also, I'll distance myself form you and treb on the bald thing. I like that my hair routine is so freaking simple and looks pretty damn good. Finding the right sunscreen to use daily is key, though.
I actually am fine with being bald, it's just I figured I'm s'posed to complain about it. I did put on a crazy Frank Zappa wig once and I looked at least 10 years younger. That sucked.

The hairy back - that's another story. I could do a Bigfoot hoax or movie without much makeup, if anyone is hiring. Corn-rowed backhair...yaaaaa.

My general attitude towards anyone who complains about this is still the same (they are lame or don't exist), but ya check your local laws about the doob.

ETA: to be clear I do not care if anyone is offended by any of this. Clothes, hair, gages (or gauges, those things in the earlobes). Stick a bone in your nose. Rub noses like the Eskimoses.

I guess the puritan days are making a comeback! I'm sorry I just can't shut up about this, it is so gawdamn stupid.

ETA2:
Hey I just saw all the uproar over Tom Brady kissing his eleven year-old son! Let's go get upset about that now! C'mon let's go!!!
__________________
Franklin understands certain kickbacks you obtain unfairly are legal liabilities; however, a risky deed's almost never detrimental despite extra external pressures.

Last edited by mgidm86; 1st February 2018 at 06:10 PM.
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st February 2018, 06:18 PM   #120
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 19,163
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Why is it the sjw crowd seems obsessed with unilateral rules?

Unilateral rules are the very issue, always have been. The issue isn't that they are pointed in the wrong direction is that they are *********** wrong in premise.

I don't respect someone who is angry their people don't get to be bullies. I respect someone who figures out what is at the core of bullying and fights against it.
It wouldn't be rules (nothing in the definition creates a rule). It would be a description of an observed phenomenon.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:29 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.