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Old 30th March 2020, 11:13 AM   #41
William Parcher
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Socialist don't ski!
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Old 30th March 2020, 12:09 PM   #42
shemp
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The only reason we exist anymore is to serve the needs of the rich and powerful.

I work for a financial services printer and data management company. I'm taking my lunch break at home right now, while our customer service department is losing its mind with the demands of clients.

All of our people in Mumbai are locked down completely, along with most in Manila (a few are able to work from home but internet there has become sporadic). We have clients who think that their precious proxy reports, shareholder reports, forms, etc. are far more important than the fact that people are dying around them by the hundreds every day, and soon by the thousands.

And these words from Elton John/Bernie Taupin (unless, of course, they totally copied REO Speedwagon) keep playing in my head:

Quote:
And I would have walked head on into the deep and darkened river
Clinging to your stocks and bonds
Paying your H.P. demands forever
They're coming in the morning with a truck to take me home
Someone saved my life tonight, someone saved my life tonight
Someone saved my life tonight, someone saved my life tonight
The rich and powerful cling to their stocks and bonds while the little people die while picking up the crumbs.

Well, I might soon decide to leave that race. I've got enough to retire on, I'd like to work a couple more years so my retirement would be better, but I'm not sure I'll live that long. So maybe I should just enjoy the time I have now, while my wife and I are still alive and haven't yet become sick.

As for the rich and powerful, I hope you choke to death on the virus while clinging to your stocks and bonds.
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Old 30th March 2020, 12:36 PM   #43
TomB
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Viruses spread around the world by those who travel, particularly those who travel internationally. Fairly obvious.

So...it's spread by travelers.

Now, in terms of world travel, the demographic is going to be weighted towards those with money or those who travel for international business. Note: The second group is not a subset of the first group, though it may overlap. I have friends who are not wealthy who travel to Europe and Asia to attend environmental conferences and meetings. We have people coming to our area for similar reasons. Also, my nephew has traveled to Japan several times for work. He's an entry level engineer, and not wealthy.

Anyway, yes, a high proportion of world travelers are wealthy, and world travelers are the vector.

But the premise that this is caused by capitalism assumes that in a non-capitalist Utopia few people would travel. We would all stay in our isolated local communities and only travel if there was a societal reason. I don't think this is true. My schoolteacher parents went to Europe. As did most of their peers (none wealthy). It's kind of a middle class thing to do.

As is spring break. (John Mellencamp: "And vacation at the Gulf of Mexico.") The middle class in Illinois\Indiana when I was growing up seemed to head south every spring break. That's about a thousand mile trip. I'm sure non-rich people on other continents travel similar distances, but actually cross borders in the process.

What you have is a correlation, not a causation.
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Old 30th March 2020, 12:57 PM   #44
dann
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Do you understand this paragraph from the CNN article?

Quote:
Despite an official warning from the Icelandic government on March 4 that a group of its nationals had contracted coronavirus in Ischgl, Austrian authorities allowed ski tourism -- and the partying that goes with it -- to continue for another nine days before fully quarantining the resort on March 13. Bars in Ischgl were closed on March 10.
Even after a bartender tested positive for the virus, the medical authority of Tyrol -- where ski tourism is one of the biggest economic drivers -- reiterated in a press release on March 8 that there was "no reason to worry."
How an Austrian ski resort helped coronavirus spread across Europe (CNN, March 24, 2020)

Do you understand what it has to do with business considerations, i.e. with capitalism?
If you read the rest of the article, it becomes even clearer.
As the next step, you should compare it with Florida's attitude to the spring breakers this year, at first, until somebody realized that it was not only an extremely bad decision but actually also a bad business decision, in the long run.

At this point of the the pandemic, everybody has probably watched Contagion. As your next movie, I recommend Jaws (Wikipedia):

Quote:
When local fishermen catch a tiger shark, the mayor proclaims the beaches safe. Hooper disputes that it is the same predator, confirming this after no human remains are found inside it. Hooper and Brody find a half-sunken vessel while searching the night waters in Hooper's boat. Underwater, Hooper retrieves a sizable great white shark's tooth embedded in the submerged hull. He drops it in fright after encountering the partial corpse of local fisherman Ben Gardner. Vaughn discounts Brody and Hooper's statements that a huge great white shark is responsible for the deaths, and refuses to close the beaches, allowing only added safety precautions. On the Fourth of July weekend, tourists pack the beaches.

You can probably let your children watch because at this point it should be clear that sharks are not half as scary as the virus that they're getting used to since sharks tend to stay in the ocean. You don't inadvertently take them home with you and let them eat your neighbors and grandparents.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 30th March 2020 at 01:09 PM.
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Old 31st March 2020, 07:23 AM   #45
dann
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Quote:
Sunset last night...isolated in the Grenadines avoiding the virus. I'm hoping everybody is staying safe.
Coronavirus: Billionaire David Geffen blasted for his Instagram-perfect isolation on a luxury yacht (South China , March 31, 2020)

At that location, at least he isn't spreading anything worse than awful Instagram messages ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 31st March 2020, 01:29 PM   #46
dann
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Even wealthy people without a yacht tend to fare much, much better than the working poor in the corona crisis:

Quote:
Around a quarter (24%) of workers in “management, business and financial” occupations – such as corporate executives, IT managers, financial analysts, accountants and insurance underwriters – have access to telework. So do 14% of “professional and related” workers, such as lawyers, software designers, scientists and engineers.
Those types of occupations tend to be relatively well paid, so perhaps it isn’t too surprising that access to telework varies sharply by income. Among private-sector workers whose occupations are in the top quarter of earnings (with average hourly wages of $30.61 or more), 19% have access to telework. The share rises to 25% for those in the top 10% of occupations (i.e., those with average wages of $48.28 an hour or higher). On the other hand, only 1% of private-sector workers in the bottom quarter of occupations (those with average hourly wages of less than $13.25) have access to telework. So few workers in the lowest-paying tenth of occupations can telework that the BLS doesn’t even report the number.
Before the coronavirus, telework was an optional benefit, mostly for the affluent few (PEW Research, March 20, 2020)
Quote:
In the United States, 53 million people must get by on low wages, with median hourly earnings of $10.22. Some of the largest occupations employing these workers are also the most susceptible to the economic slowdown accompanying the virus’ spread: 5 million food service workers, 4.5 million retail clerks, and 2.5 million custodians and housekeepers. When college campuses empty out, when stadiums don’t host games, or when conferences are cancelled, it means that food servers, cooks, clerks, and housekeepers are out of work. And many low-wage workers and those in sales and service industries lack paid sick or vacation leave, which results in no earnings coming in at all.
(...)
The coronavirus is providing a brutally efficient lesson about the value of a well-rounded economy that doesn’t leave workers without income, health care, or paid leave during times of crisis. These lessons aren’t just for the classroom or thought experiments—the consequences are very real.
Coronavirus makes it impossible to ignore the economic insecurity built into our labor market (brookings.edu, March 13, 2020)
Quote:
“We have more income and wealth inequality in America today than any time in 100 years,” Sanders said. (Indeed, a 2019 paper on wealth inequality by University of California at Berkeley economist Gabriel Zucman found that U.S. wealth concentration levels are at levels not seen since the “roaring” 1920′s.)
And for the wealthy, when it comes to coronavirus, “you’re going to get everything you need. You’re not worried about health care. You’re not worried about income coming in,” Sanders said.
Bernie Sanders: ‘If you’re a multimillionaire ... you’re going to get through’ the coronavirus pandemic (CNBC, March 16, 2020)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st April 2020, 02:23 AM   #47
Baylor
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
At that location, at least he isn't spreading anything worse than awful Instagram messages ...
Whoa, tone down the anti-semitism.
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Old 1st April 2020, 02:54 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
mmmmmm, Class Warfare in the middle of a pandemic, this will go well
That's why you need guns.

Meanwhile, in Australia, sure if the worst hot spots are the wealthiest ones.
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Old 1st April 2020, 04:39 AM   #49
dann
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Whoa, tone down the anti-semitism.

His background is Jewish?!

Quote:
Both of his parents were Jewish immigrants who met in Mandatory Palestine and then moved to the United States.
David Geffen: Early life (Wikipedia)

So what?! It will benefit other 'Jews' as little as the luxury hideouts of members of your imaginary Aryan race will benefit you.
They have nothing in common with you and everything in common with him.

Farewell poor people: How the rich are fleeing London - as millionaires offer up to £50,000-a-month to rent rural retreats (Daily Mirror, March 19, 2020)
The luxury bunkers super-rich survivalists buy for doomsday (NYPost, March 27, 2020)
Them and us: rich vs. poor during the COVID-19 pandemic (marxist.com, March 30, 2020)
Quote:
A group of pampered, wealthy individuals singing about a fantasy world with "no possessions" is deeply ironic, but the fact that the rich and famous seem to have little trouble accessing coronavirus testing kits, in sharp contrast to just about everyone else, adds an undercurrent of resentment.
5 Amusingly Out Of Touch Celebrity Responses To The Coronavirus Pandemic (Forbes, March 19, 2020)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st April 2020, 04:39 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Do you understand this paragraph from the CNN article?
A lot of people, even a majority in my view, underestimated the danger of this pandemic.
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Old 1st April 2020, 04:40 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Okay, rich people travel more, and people who travel more were relatively more instrumental in spreading COVID-19.

So what? What action should be taken because of that?
Dann, would you consider answering these questions?
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Old 1st April 2020, 04:44 AM   #52
dann
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Yes, but they didn't all do it deliberately like "the medical authority of Tyrol -- where ski tourism is one of the biggest economic drivers."
The mistake made by the majority was to trust the advice of the "medical authority" and other alleged 'experts'.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st April 2020, 05:09 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, but they didn't all do it deliberately like "the medical authority of Tyrol -- where ski tourism is one of the biggest economic drivers."
The mistake made by the majority was to trust the advice of the "medical authority" and other alleged 'experts'.
I'm not convinced that particular expert was deliberately misleading people, rather than simply wrong.

I do think there are some out there who are deliberately misleading us, but I'm not convinced capitalism is to blame.
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Old 1st April 2020, 06:13 AM   #54
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Isn't the truth of the OP abundantly obvious?

Poor people just don't fly internationally. Rich people do that.

The rapid spread from country to country is a result mainly of air travel. Poor people don't do that so much. Unless it's to travel to service rich people.

Rich people, in planes, moved the virus out of China and all over the world. Maybe it was walked into Russia, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, but not the UK, the USA, Australia. It was taken there by people rich enough to afford international air travel.
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Old 1st April 2020, 06:22 AM   #55
Roboramma
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Isn't the truth of the OP abundantly obvious?

Poor people just don't fly internationally. Rich people do that.

The rapid spread from country to country is a result mainly of air travel. Poor people don't do that so much. Unless it's to travel to service rich people.

Rich people, in planes, moved the virus out of China and all over the world. Maybe it was walked into Russia, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, but not the UK, the USA, Australia. It was taken there by people rich enough to afford international air travel.
My roommate flew back to Singapore for Chinese New Year. He's been out of work for months and before that was making a salary of around US$1500/month. I don't think he counts as "rich". Yet he was a potential carrier of the disease.

I went to Thailand with my girlfriend at the end of February. Two friends of hers came along. They are both pretty broke (one of them had to borrow money from her mother for the trip, but her mother isn't rich either).

My sister has travelled around the world several times, back when she was working odd jobs. For a while she taught English in Korea, for a while she worked at a hostel in Banff. She was always struggling for money, and still hasn't paid off all of her student loans. But every time I talk to her she's either about to fly somewhere or is just returning. She's definitely not rich.

I know another guy who is stuck in India right now after flying there and then getting stuck due to travel restrictions. He's in his late sixties but still working as mover in Australia because he has no savings for retirement. Also not rich.
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Last edited by Roboramma; 1st April 2020 at 06:30 AM. Reason: Poor mental arithmetic on a currency conversion
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Old 1st April 2020, 06:36 AM   #56
3point14
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
My roommate flew back to Singapore for Chinese New Year. He's been out of work for months and before that was making a salary of around US$1500/month. I don't think he counts as "rich". Yet he was a potential carrier of the disease.

I went to Thailand with my girlfriend at the end of February. Two friends of hers came along. They are both pretty broke (one of them had to borrow money from her mother for the trip, but her mother isn't rich either).

My sister has travelled around the world several times, back when she was working odd jobs. For a while she taught English in Korea, for a while she worked at a hostel in Banff. She was always struggling for money, and still hasn't paid off all of her student loans. But every time I talk to her she's either about to fly somewhere or is just returning. She's definitely not rich.

I know another guy who is stuck in India right now after flying there and then getting stuck due to travel restrictions. He's in his late sixties but still working as mover in Australia because he has no savings for retirement. Also not rich.
It's all relative. You, me and everyone you mention above is rich by global standards. This is an issue caused by people who have enough money, or credit, to fly.

The poor - that is the poor of the world, rather than the western poor, did not move the virus thousands of miles around the world.
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Old 1st April 2020, 06:45 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
mmmmmm, Class Warfare in the middle of a pandemic, this will go well
lol


must blame someone....
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Old 1st April 2020, 06:54 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
lol


must blame someone....
Did you forget to switch accounts or why are you answering your own post?
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Old 1st April 2020, 07:05 AM   #59
dann
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I guess Trump's attack on hospital workers reminded him of his old post.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st April 2020, 07:07 AM   #60
dann
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
lol

must blame someone....

Yes, that appears to be the name of the Trumpian blame game! What a despicable *******!

Trump Again Accuses Health Care Workers Of Squandering Masks] (HuffPost, March 29, 2020)
Trump could help solve the mask problem. Instead he’s making baseless attacks on New York nurses. (Vox, March 30, 2020)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st April 2020, 07:25 AM   #61
dann
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I'm not convinced that particular expert was deliberately misleading people, rather than simply wrong.

I do think there are some out there who are deliberately misleading us, but I'm not convinced capitalism is to blame.

Capitalism is what implants this particular kind of wishful thinking into the minds of capitalist agents: 'Yes, the signs are all there, but if I ignore them, I bet they will go away, and it won't be as bad as they think because .... that's what I want to think. Anything else might affect my business/the businesses of the region, the country, Dow Jones adversely, so I can't allow it to be true.'
See the CNN article in the OP about the people who warned about the impending disaster and the people who, much like Trump, chose to ignore it or play it down.
It would be bad for business to believe otherwise ... at least, short term ...
However, much like in Jaws it came back to bite them (and an awful lot of innocent people) in the ass - if they hadn't already defected to the Grenadines, hoping that everybody is staying safe, of course:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st April 2020, 07:43 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Even wealthy people without a yacht tend to fare much, much better than the working poor in the corona crisis:
Thank you for the stunning revelation that rich people are faring better in this crisis, just like they do in every other crisis. I was beginning to think this corona thing was going to be a socio-economic anomaly.
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Old 1st April 2020, 10:42 AM   #63
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It's incredible to me that people still have the appetite for so much anger. I thought this horrible pandemic would make people band together more. I was very, very wrong.
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Old 1st April 2020, 10:44 AM   #64
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
It's incredible to me that people still have the appetite for so much anger. I thought this horrible pandemic would make people band together more. I was very, very wrong.
Political fanaticism is a horrible pandemic and it lives here at ISF.
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Old 1st April 2020, 10:44 AM   #65
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Is the bottom line here that no one should ever travel, or that no one should ever be rich?
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Old 1st April 2020, 10:49 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Is the bottom line here that no one should ever travel, or that no one should ever be rich?
The latter is more consistent with dann's body of work.

The former is probably just as important in terms of global climate change.
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Old 1st April 2020, 11:05 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
The only reason we exist anymore is to serve the needs of the rich and powerful.

I work for a financial services printer and data management company. I'm taking my lunch break at home right now, while our customer service department is losing its mind with the demands of clients.

All of our people in Mumbai are locked down completely, along with most in Manila (a few are able to work from home but internet there has become sporadic). We have clients who think that their precious proxy reports, shareholder reports, forms, etc. are far more important than the fact that people are dying around them by the hundreds every day, and soon by the thousands.

And these words from Elton John/Bernie Taupin (unless, of course, they totally copied REO Speedwagon) keep playing in my head:



The rich and powerful cling to their stocks and bonds while the little people die while picking up the crumbs.

Well, I might soon decide to leave that race. I've got enough to retire on, I'd like to work a couple more years so my retirement would be better, but I'm not sure I'll live that long. So maybe I should just enjoy the time I have now, while my wife and I are still alive and haven't yet become sick.

As for the rich and powerful, I hope you choke to death on the virus while clinging to your stocks and bonds.

SO anybody who makes a lot of money is evil?
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Old 1st April 2020, 11:06 AM   #68
dudalb
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Is the bottom line here that no one should ever travel, or that no one should ever be rich?
Both, probably.
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Old 1st April 2020, 11:15 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Thank you for the stunning revelation that rich people are faring better in this crisis, just like they do in every other crisis. I was beginning to think this corona thing was going to be a socio-economic anomaly.

That it would be a minor inconvenience to poor people and only seriously harm the rich? Yes, you would hate that, wouldn't you?
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st April 2020, 11:21 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
That it would be a minor inconvenience to poor people and only seriously harm the rich? Yes, you would hate that, wouldn't you?
Your half-assed projection is noted
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Old 1st April 2020, 11:25 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
It's incredible to me that people still have the appetite for so much anger. I thought this horrible pandemic would make people band together more. I was very, very wrong.

I think you've totally misunderstood the situation. When David Geffen and others like him ride it out on their yachts in the Caribbean, it's not at all because they're angry at the poor. They just don't feel like sharing their fate and would hate to practice social distancing in an apartment on the tenth floor somewhere in the Bronx. They would hate it just as much as the actual tenants there do.
Why on Earth do you think that the rich would want to band together with the poor in this situation? In "this horrible pandemic", they want it even less than they do the rest of the time.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st April 2020, 11:33 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Is the bottom line here that no one should ever travel, or that no one should ever be rich?

No, the bottom line is that business men and the authorities, even the health authorities who work for them, look only at the bottom line when business is threatened by a a pandemic.
And it's the same thing all over the world, be it Ischgl, Austria, or Miami, Florida.
And the bottom line makes them so short-sighted that they can't think straight: They can't even see the long-term losses for the short-term profits. Public health? Who cares!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st April 2020, 11:41 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Is the bottom line here that no one should ever travel, or that no one should ever be rich?
The latter is more consistent with dann's body of work.

The former is probably just as important in terms of global climate change.

Yes, from the point of view of the affluent travellers, the CO2 emissions from airplanes always become apparent to them only when they consider mass tourism. If only the plebs stayed at home and didn't go anywhere, there wouldn't be so much pollution.
And, you know, if only the Chinese hadn't industrialized, there wouldn't be so much CO2 in the atmosphere. That Americans contribute with so much more CO2 per capita is the God-given right of the oligarchs of American industry. The Chinese should be content with serving them.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st April 2020, 11:44 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, from the point of view of the affluent travellers, the CO2 emissions from airplanes always become apparent to them only when they consider mass tourism. If only the plebs stayed at home and didn't go anywhere, there wouldn't be so much pollution.
I mean, you're not wrong. Limited amounts of air travel wouldn't really be much of a problem, pollution-wise.

I think we can all agree that even under a global regime of draconian emissions controls, some people should still be allowed to fly long distances for important work.

Last edited by theprestige; 1st April 2020 at 11:47 AM.
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Old 1st April 2020, 11:44 AM   #75
dann
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
SO anybody who makes a lot of money is evil?

So that was the only misinterpretation of Shemp's words you could think of?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st April 2020, 11:46 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Your half-assed projection is noted

Yes, pointing out how the system works really upsets some people.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 1st April 2020 at 11:54 AM.
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Old 1st April 2020, 11:53 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I mean, you're not wrong. Limited amounts of air travel wouldn't really be much of a problem, pollution-wise.

I think we can all agree that even under a global regime of draconian emissions controls, some people should still be allowed to fly long distances for important work.

We all know the kind of people who think their particular reason for traveling is important.
David Geffen's trip to the Caribbean and a few hundred other 0.1%ers retreating to their secret island hideouts can't be considered to be unimportant, considering the circumstances, and probably won't pollute half as much as a couple of million Chinese riding their mopeds to work, right?!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st April 2020, 12:02 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, the bottom line is that business men and the authorities, even the health authorities who work for them, look only at the bottom line when business is threatened by a a pandemic.
And it's the same thing all over the world, be it Ischgl, Austria, or Miami, Florida.
And the bottom line makes them so short-sighted that they can't think straight: They can't even see the long-term losses for the short-term profits. Public health? Who cares!
I was just confused because it sounded like you were blaming travel in general. People were traveling before this situation was really understood, and some of them probably had a hand in spreading the virus all over the place. So the ideal situation would have been a world in which no one traveled in the first place. Is that something you think? (Just trying to understand the argument.)

I completely agree with you that the people disregarding the situation once it was known are horrible.
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Old 1st April 2020, 12:05 PM   #79
Butter!
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I think you've totally misunderstood the situation. When David Geffen and others like him ride it out on their yachts in the Caribbean, it's not at all because they're angry at the poor. They just don't feel like sharing their fate and would hate to practice social distancing in an apartment on the tenth floor somewhere in the Bronx. They would hate it just as much as the actual tenants there do.
Why on Earth do you think that the rich would want to band together with the poor in this situation? In "this horrible pandemic", they want it even less than they do the rest of the time.
I was talking more about "left vs. right" (or however one wants to put it) stuff, honestly. I was hoping there could be a silver lining to all this, that the everyday person battling it out on Facebook would lose some of their hatred of "the other side" and just start to see everyone as human since we're in pretty dire straits as a planet right now. But from what I have seen, it's actually gotten worse. I had not expected that. My mother said I'm naive when I shared the same feelings with her. She's right.
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Old 1st April 2020, 12:50 PM   #80
dann
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Yes, a lot of people appreciate class struggle as long as it is one-sided, like when Trump accuses hospital workers of squandering masks. They only complain about 'Class struggle!' (or "Class Warfare")whenever somebody points out what is actually going on.
In other words, your consternation is not at all surprising.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 1st April 2020 at 12:51 PM.
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