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Tags Coronavirus , Sweden incidents , Sweden issues

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Old 13th April 2020, 07:19 AM   #121
dann
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Coronavirus hygge - an American in Denmark during the pandemic:

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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th April 2020, 07:29 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
That the spread of the flu stopped as a side effect of social distancing has been mentioned in Denmark, too!
Japan also has seen a lower rate of flu than the last ten years, I think.
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Old 13th April 2020, 09:46 AM   #123
dann
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I propose a two-week worldwide lockdown to rid humanity of the flu and most other infectious diseases!
The zoonotic ones will still be a problem, though.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th April 2020, 02:57 PM   #124
dann
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Swedish author and journalist Jan Guillou (Wikipedia) criticizes the way that Sweden, the USA (and capitalism in general) cope with the coronavirus:
Den råbarkade sanning som högern förnekar är att kapitalism är dödligt (Aftonbladet, April 12, 2020)
The tough truth that right-wingers deny is that capitalism kills
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th April 2020, 03:18 PM   #125
Ulf Nereng
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Swedish author and journalist Jan Guillou (Wikipedia) criticizes the way that Sweden, the USA (and capitalism in general) cope with the coronavirus:
Den råbarkade sanning som högern förnekar är att kapitalism är dödligt (Aftonbladet, April 12, 2020)
The tough truth that right-wingers deny is that capitalism kills
Yes, but aren't the social democrats in power right now?
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Old 13th April 2020, 03:41 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I propose a two-week worldwide lockdown to rid humanity of the flu and most other infectious diseases!
The zoonotic ones will still be a problem, though.
That’s the problem. Flu and other diseases have animal reservoirs so human action can’t completely eradicate them unless those reservoirs are eradicated too.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 13th April 2020, 04:23 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Swedish author and journalist Jan Guillou (Wikipedia) criticizes the way that Sweden, the USA (and capitalism in general) cope with the coronavirus:
Den råbarkade sanning som högern förnekar är att kapitalism är dödligt (Aftonbladet, April 12, 2020)
The tough truth that right-wingers deny is that capitalism kills
No one ever died from diseases under socialism apparently.
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Old 14th April 2020, 02:37 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
No one ever died from diseases under socialism apparently.

Didn't they? You are obviously very upset about the Swedish mismanagement of the response to Covid-19, but do you really consider it an argument that people die from diseases under socialism? Did anybody, Jan Guillou or I, for instance, claim that people only die from diseases under capitalism?

Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng View Post
Yes, but aren't the social democrats in power right now?

They most certainly are, but as you can see, even somebody who is a big fan of the Social Democratic response to Covid-19 in Sweden doesn't think that they are socialists.
Neither do I.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th April 2020, 05:47 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You are obviously very upset about the Swedish mismanagement of the response to Covid-19, but do you really consider it an argument that people die from diseases under socialism? Did anybody, Jan Guillou or I, for instance, claim that people only die from diseases under capitalism?
I'm not upset, but it's telling that you find it within yourself to quote a dictator loving far-left extremist.

The problem with a serious lack of emergency preparedness and shortages in healthcare equipment and supplies is not nothing new. It has been a systemic fault caused by political decisions that has been acceptable by all the major political parties over decades since the end of the cold war and it has nothing to do with "capitalism".

The decentralization of healthcare organization and funding combined with increased municipal autonomy has been a mixed blessing in that it has protected some regions and municipalities from the kind of severe mismanagement that others (including Stockholm) has been subject to. Sweden's riches have been concentrated in the capital for as long as this country has existed, but somehow these greedy bastards find it beneath themselves to adequately fund their own healthcare, blaming the rest of country for siphoning off their money. Just before this crisis they were sacking doctors and nurses because they had wasted so much money on a boondoggle of a new hospital.

Hell the situation in many of the regions has been so unstable that when a couple of them changed the supplier of medical equipment and supplies, naturally to the one bidding the lowest, they suddenly found themselves in a crisis because the supplier couldn't keep up. Since many of the regions only have supplies on hand for just 48 hours, they had to pretty much stop all non-mandatory and non-emergency operations for two months. That was without Corona virus pandemic.
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And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann

Last edited by Arcade22; 14th April 2020 at 05:55 AM.
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Old 14th April 2020, 10:38 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I'm not upset, but it's telling that you find it within yourself to quote a dictator loving far-left extremist.

I have two quotes in my most recent post, one of yours and of Ulf Nereng's. Which one of you is the "dictator loving far-left extremist?

Quote:
The problem with a serious lack of emergency preparedness and shortages in healthcare equipment and supplies is not nothing new. It has been a systemic fault caused by political decisions that has been acceptable by all the major political parties over decades since the end of the cold war and it has nothing to do with "capitalism".

The decentralization of healthcare organization and funding combined with increased municipal autonomy has been a mixed blessing in that it has protected some regions and municipalities from the kind of severe mismanagement that others (including Stockholm) has been subject to. Sweden's riches have been concentrated in the capital for as long as this country has existed, but somehow these greedy bastards find it beneath themselves to adequately fund their own healthcare, blaming the rest of country for siphoning off their money. Just before this crisis they were sacking doctors and nurses because they had wasted so much money on a boondoggle of a new hospital.

Hell the situation in many of the regions has been so unstable that when a couple of them changed the supplier of medical equipment and supplies, naturally to the one bidding the lowest, they suddenly found themselves in a crisis because the supplier couldn't keep up. Since many of the regions only have supplies on hand for just 48 hours, they had to pretty much stop all non-mandatory and non-emergency operations for two months. That was without Corona virus pandemic.

It sounds an awful lot like capitalism to me. In fact, it sounds an awful lot like the miserable conditions in the USA right now under Trump. You even share his predilection for blaming the regions and their insufficient preparations.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th April 2020, 10:53 AM   #131
dann
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Country Deaths per million (TV2, April 14, 2020)
Sverige 103
USA 74
Danmark 52
And for the benefit of Baylor who insisted on comparing the USA with Norway:
Norge 26
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th April 2020, 11:22 AM   #132
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22 researchers criticize the Swedish corona strategy, describe it as failed and ask the politicians to take control of it (Dagens Nyheter, April 14, 2020)
The chief epidemiologist, Anders Tegnell, claims that the researchers got the number of deaths wrong (SVT.se, April 14, 2020)
He also says that there's going to be quite a lot of deaths for a while longer (Aftonbladet, April 14, 2020)
The interview in Aftonbladet also has this gem (or turd):

Quote:
Donald Trump sade i fredags att om USA använt Sveriges strategi kunde landet haft 2 miljoner döda. Hur ser du på det uttalandet?
– Om han jämför dödstalen i New York med de vi har i Stockholm, så tror jag han har facit på det. Vi ligger väsentligt lägre än New York gör i dag.
Translation:
On Friday, Donald Trump said that if the USA had used Sweden's strategy, the county could have had two million deaths. What do you think of this statement?
- If he compares the number of deaths in New York with Stockholm, then I think he has [facit på det (I don't know what this means, dann)]. Today, we are considerably lower than New York.

I think it's pretty obvious why he prefers the comparison New York/Stockholm to Trump's comparison: USA/Sweden. See post 131.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 14th April 2020 at 11:24 AM.
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Old 14th April 2020, 03:08 PM   #133
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Hmmm. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a9462796.html

Quote:
Despite the mounting concerns of experts both at home and abroad, Sweden continues what Anders Tegnell, the country’s chief epidemiologist, has called a “low-scale” approach. He insists this “is much more sustainable” in the long run.

Primary schools, shops, restaurants and bars remain open and people are allowed to go out and exercise.

But Sweden’s cases are rising. The country of some 10 million now has more than 10,000 cases and 887 deaths. Its total death toll is higher than that of all the other Nordic countries put together.

The government has said repeatedly that the main cornerstone of their strategy is to protect the elderly. Since the beginning of the crisis, they have been asked to stay home but despite these measures, the virus has spread to one-third of nursing homes in Stockholm, which has resulted in a spike in fatalities.

Prime minister Stefan Lofven recently admitted in an interview with daily Svenska Dagbladet that “Sweden has not succeeded in protecting its elderly”. Mr Lofven also warned citizens to prepare for possibly up to “thousands” of deaths.

There is every possibility of a vaccine against this virus. It is also clear that it is possible to slow the spread very dramatically with test/trace/isolate operations and that when such an operation is in place it is then possible to ease off on quarantine restrictions to allow many people back to work and get the economy moving to some extent.

Not only that, the experience of China, New Zealand and the Faroe Isles suggests that this virus is actually eradicable, with the main confounder being incoming travellers. (It will be interesting to see how New Zealand deals with that in the coming months.)

This is in all probability a medium term problem. Vaccine science is a highly developed subject and the urgency is great. Multiple teams are working on different approaches. A year, quite possibly. 18 months, probably. Two years, maybe. It is certainly possible to keep a test/trace/isolate operation going that long. That has the potential to save untold numbers of lives. South Korea is already demonstrating that.

How is it possible that any country can be so careless of lives as to essentially give up the fight more or less before they started?
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Last edited by Rolfe; 14th April 2020 at 03:11 PM.
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Old 14th April 2020, 04:07 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
How is it possible that any country can be so careless of lives as to essentially give up the fight more or less before they started?
Well it seems like many other countries have given up and are going to open up long before the virus has gone away. I just guess they could not stomach it anymore.
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Old 14th April 2020, 04:48 PM   #135
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I guess they simply don't understand the science. Which is maybe not surprising as there is a lot of misinformation and faulty reasoning around. We'll see how they stomach the death toll that's coming down the road if they decide to move back into the house while it's still burning.
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Last edited by Rolfe; 14th April 2020 at 04:50 PM.
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Old 14th April 2020, 06:25 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Well it seems like many other countries have given up and are going to open up long before the virus has gone away. I just guess they could not stomach it anymore.
What countries?
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Old 14th April 2020, 07:07 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
What countries?
Well for one, Spain:

Quote:
Workers in Spain returned to some factory and construction jobs as the health ministry said that while the country’s death toll had surpassed 18,000, the highest in Europe after Italy, its daily increase in new cases was the lowest since 17 March.

Most shops and services remained closed, however, and office staff must still work from home if they can. Salvador Illa, the health minister, said he would proceed “with the utmost caution and prudence … and always based on scientific evidence”.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...wn-italy-spain

Apparently it's okay to allow even more people to die just for some god damn GDP.
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And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann
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Old 14th April 2020, 07:18 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Well for one, Spain:



https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...wn-italy-spain

Apparently it's okay to allow even more people to die just for some god damn GDP.
So it seems that no country you can name has actually "given up." Spain seems to be tentatively relaxing some restrictions. This is what's going to happen when strict measures have lowered new cases of the virus according to the Hammer and Dance model, which will not happen in Sweden due to their political choices.
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Old 14th April 2020, 07:19 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I guess they simply don't understand the science. Which is maybe not surprising as there is a lot of misinformation and faulty reasoning around. We'll see how they stomach the death toll that's coming down the road if they decide to move back into the house while it's still burning.
But the Spanish guy there in the news article said he was guided by science. Maybe they can live with people dying.
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We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann

Last edited by Arcade22; 14th April 2020 at 07:20 PM.
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Old 14th April 2020, 07:34 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
So it seems that no country you can name has actually "given up." Spain seems to be tentatively relaxing some restrictions.
Which will increase the risk of new infections and subsequent deaths that could have been prevented by not relaxing any restrictions.

I thought the whole point was to wait until they have reached somewhere near the end of the curve and then cautiously open up. If anything this would just extend the length that a lock-down is necessary, but it guess that might be acceptable.
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We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann
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Old 14th April 2020, 08:07 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Which will increase the risk of new infections and subsequent deaths that could have been prevented by not relaxing any restrictions.
Indeed. Perhaps it's too soon.

Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I thought the whole point was to wait until they have reached somewhere near the end of the curve and then cautiously open up. If anything this would just extend the length that a lock-down is necessary, but it guess that might be acceptable.
That's the idea, but as we all know, there are political pressures and other factors. In a perfect world, individuals would take up the mantle during this crisis, isolate themselves, and sacrifice convenience to protect their neighbors. What I see is that all too often entitled jerks posture their freedom, lick doorknobs, and act like dickholes.

My question to you is where do you think Sweden falls in this spectrum?
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Old 14th April 2020, 11:55 PM   #142
dann
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Well for one, Spain:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...wn-italy-spain

Apparently it's okay to allow even more people to die just for some god damn GDP.

Your hyperbole whenever you are talking about other countries than Sweden should tell you that you are trying to fool yourself. (And whenever you are talking about Sweden, you always play it down.)

In post 132 above, I linked to an article about the protests from 22 researchers. However, most of it was behind a paywall. The new article in Danish isn't:

Quote:
'Fra den 7. til 9. april døde der hver dag 10,2 personer pr. 1 million indbyggere i Sverige, mens det i Italien var 9,7. I Danmark var det 2,9, i Norge 2,0 og i Finland 0,9,' skriver de 22 forskere, professorer og læger, der henviser til de strammere restriktioner i nabolandene og efterlyser lignende i Sverige.
22 svenske forskere slår alarm: Den svenske strategi har slået fejl (DR.dk, April 14, 2020)
'April 7 to 9, 10.2 people per million died every day in Sweden, whereas in Italy it as 9.7, in Denmark it was 2.9, in Norway 2.0 and in Finland 0.9, 'the 22 researchers, professors and doctors write, referring to the tighter restrictions in the neighboring countries and calling for similar restrictions in Sweden.
22 Swedish scientists raise the alarm: The Swedish strategy has failed
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 15th April 2020, 12:14 AM   #143
dann
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Sweden: 22 Scientists Say Coronavirus Strategy Has Failed As Deaths Top 1,000 (Forbes, April 14, 2020)
Sweden's coronavirus strategy sparks fierce debate as deaths pass 1,000 (TheLocal.se, April 14, 2020)
Coronavirus deaths in Sweden pass 1,000 (India Today, April 14, 2020)
Coronavirus deaths in Sweden exceed 1000 (The Canberra Times, April 15, 2020)

And then there's this from last week about the strange case of Swedish nationalism and authoritarian thinking, which has already been demonstrated in this thread:
Quote:
Many Norwegians shake their heads in disbelief at their neighbour Sweden’s approach to the coronavirus. But Sweden’s population greatly supports the country's corona experts, a recent study suggests.
(...)
The Swedes already have very high confidence in both politicians and the authorities, compared to other countries.
“When there is a crisis, people support the authorities. We’ve also seen this in previous crises. Eventually, as people begin to see how things will develop and end, then they can be more critical, and their trust may also be weakened,” she says.
Swedes trust their experts in the coronavirus crisis (Science Norway, April 6, 2020)
The article is in English, and I highly recommend it!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 15th April 2020, 12:18 AM   #144
dann
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
My question to you is where do you think Sweden falls in this spectrum?

Worried enough to lose sleep over it!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 15th April 2020, 12:37 AM   #145
dann
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An aside about Swedish authoritarianism, but not about the corona crisis:

Quote:
Political scientist Olof Petersson says one of the distinctive features of Swedish political culture is that it is both more authoritarian and more democratic than the European norm: in the Swedish model, authority consults widely, but is obeyed when it reaches a decision. There is always an elite consensus at the apex of Swedish society, and at any given time a very narrow range of acceptable views, but these can suddenly change, as did attitudes to the old welfare state after an economic crisis in the 1990s, or attitudes to refugees in 2015. (...)
The drawback of all authoritarian systems is that the people at the top will hear only what they want to, and gradually lose touch with reality.
Sweden’s far right has flourished because the elite lost touch with the people (Guardian, Aug. 26, 2018)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 15th April 2020, 12:46 AM   #146
dann
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
How is it possible that any country can be so careless of lives as to essentially give up the fight more or less before they started?

It goes against the grain of Swedish mentality to doubt what their leaders tell them to think. It's a tough job to be Jan Guillou in a country like Sweden, but somebody's gotta do it.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 15th April 2020 at 12:49 AM.
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Old 15th April 2020, 03:00 AM   #147
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Hi everyone. Hope you had a nice Easter.

About Swedish trust in authority, that's pretty much correct. It's more or less a given in Swedish culture to trust what authorities say, or at the very least, obey. Debate is welcome and often quite fierce - as is the case right now about the matters under discussion in this thread - but it is still up to the authorities to make a decision and expect that decision to be followed. I'd say that's more or less how a Democracy is supposed to function. It could be construed that this makes us vulnerable to unscrupulous politicians, but we also have a strong press and, as I said, the debate is fierce. Over all, authorities are manned by people, and we sort of rely on them making decisions that benefit all people.
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Old 15th April 2020, 03:27 AM   #148
dann
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Thank you, yes, and I hope you enjoyed Easter, too.
But I think it's time for you to stop relying on them making decisions that benefit all people. It doesn't seem to be working very well in this situation. Their decisions are making too many people sick, and it kills some of them, too.
You should start thinking for yourselves. Do what skeptics are supposed to do.
I mean, look at the arguments of this guy, Anders Tegnell:
Originally Posted by dann View Post
22 researchers criticize the Swedish corona strategy, describe it as failed and ask the politicians to take control of it (Dagens Nyheter, April 14, 2020)
The chief epidemiologist, Anders Tegnell, claims that the researchers got the number of deaths wrong (SVT.se, April 14, 2020)
He also says that there's going to be quite a lot of deaths for a while longer (Aftonbladet, April 14, 2020)
The interview in Aftonbladet also has this gem (or turd):

Quote:
Donald Trump sade i fredags att om USA använt Sveriges strategi kunde landet haft 2 miljoner döda. Hur ser du på det uttalandet?
– Om han jämför dödstalen i New York med de vi har i Stockholm, så tror jag han har facit på det. Vi ligger väsentligt lägre än New York gör i dag.
Translation:
On Friday, Donald Trump said that if the USA had used Sweden's strategy, the county could have had two million deaths. What do you think of this statement?
- If he compares the number of deaths in New York with Stockholm, then I think he has [facit på det (I don't know what this means, dann)]. Today, we are considerably lower than New York.

I think it's pretty obvious why he prefers the comparison New York/Stockholm to Trump's comparison: USA/Sweden. See post 131.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 15th April 2020, 03:44 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I mean, look at the arguments of this guy, Anders Tegnell:
Trump has brought up Sweden at least a couple of times, and he has always been heavily exaggerating the situation, simply to make himself and his actions seem good in comparison.

Again, compared with Belgium Sweden is doing great.
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And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann
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Old 15th April 2020, 03:51 AM   #150
uke2se
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Thank you, yes, and I hope you enjoyed Easter, too.
But I think it's time for you to stop relying on them making decisions that benefit all people. It doesn't seem to be working very well in this situation. Their decisions are making too many people sick, and it kills some of them, too.
You should start thinking for yourselves. Do what skeptics are supposed to do.
I mean, look at the arguments of this guy, Anders Tegnell:
Well, in the current situation, thinking for myself - which I do - isn't sufficient to actually effect a change. We're sort of stuck with each other, us Swedes. We need organized leadership, and we're getting it, for better or worse.
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Old 15th April 2020, 04:24 AM   #151
dann
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Trump has brought up Sweden at least a couple of times, and he has always been heavily exaggerating the situation, simply to make himself and his actions seem good in comparison.

Again, compared with Belgium Sweden is doing great.

And compared with San Marino, everbody is doing great, so if we all apply this nationalistic strategy diligently, all countries except one will come out as winners in the end! It is Trump's strategy, and yours as well: hyperbole and comparisons with countries that appear to be doing even worse in order to make your country seem good!

(And as for Belgium, Al Jazeera is quite impressed by the country's efforts to combat the virus: How a 'failed state' managed to contain a coronavirus outbreak - Belgium has long been written off as a dysfunctional state, yet its pandemic response has been remarkably functional. (Al Jazeera, April 13, 2020))
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 15th April 2020, 09:56 AM   #152
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I can't comprehend the argument that Sweden's COVID policy is authoritarian.

An authoritarian government would be requiring compliance with strict rules and enforce those rules with force. That would eliminate the autonomy and choice of citizens. This is not the policy that Sweden has invoked.

Instead, the Swedish government is very soft in its policy. This allows Swedish citizens to exercise more caution than the government is requiring. This policy as I understand its implementation is the opposite of authoritarian.

There exist many times more freedom in the latter than the former.
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Old 15th April 2020, 07:37 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Thank you, yes, and I hope you enjoyed Easter, too.
But I think it's time for you to stop relying on them making decisions that benefit all people. It doesn't seem to be working very well in this situation. Their decisions are making too many people sick, and it kills some of them, too.
You should start thinking for yourselves. Do what skeptics are supposed to do.
I mean, look at the arguments of this guy, Anders Tegnell:
Nuke the Øresund Bridge from orbit! It's the only way to be sure!!
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Old 15th April 2020, 09:29 PM   #154
Ulf Nereng
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Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
I can't comprehend the argument that Sweden's COVID policy is authoritarian.

An authoritarian government would be requiring compliance with strict rules and enforce those rules with force. That would eliminate the autonomy and choice of citizens. This is not the policy that Sweden has invoked.

Instead, the Swedish government is very soft in its policy. This allows Swedish citizens to exercise more caution than the government is requiring. This policy as I understand its implementation is the opposite of authoritarian.

There exist many times more freedom in the latter than the former.
It certainly is an unusual usage of the word! Perhaps what is meant is that the government has put it all in the hands of their leading health-authority, dr Tegnell.
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Old 15th April 2020, 09:47 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng View Post
It certainly is an unusual usage of the word! Perhaps what is meant is that the government has put it all in the hands of their leading health-authority, dr Tegnell.
Agree. A better way would be to say that citizens of Sweden have high levels of compliance with their authorities...which means leaders don't need to be "authoritarian".
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Old 16th April 2020, 12:10 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Country Deaths per million (TV2, April 14, 2020)
Sverige 103
USA 74
Danmark 52
And for the benefit of Baylor who insisted on comparing the USA with Norway:
Norge 26
Just to add extra comparison:
Czech Republic 16,6
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Old 16th April 2020, 12:15 AM   #157
dann
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Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
I can't comprehend the argument that Sweden's COVID policy is authoritarian.

That is good because that's not the argument. Did you read any of the articles in English that I've linked to? You appear to see the word 'authoritarian' and then assume that it's the same kind of authoritarianism that you expect to hear about whenever the word is mentioned, but I have been very careful about stressing that I am talking about the very particular kind of authoritarianism that you'll find in Swedes, i.e. the one that we have seen examples of exhibited by Swedes in this thread, the kind where Swedes accept what the government tells them even when facts like the death toll from the virus in Sweden is much worse than in all neighboring countries: twice that of Denmark, four times that of Norway. Not to mention all the weird arguments against the appalling conditions in Swedish hospitals and the fact that nursing homes have been particularly hard hit used as an excuse for the governments inaction: No preparations, no equipment, no tests ... In all other countries, the USA for instance, the government is criticized for lack of preparations. In this thread, that has been the main argument in favor of Sweden's coronavirus response.

Quote:
An authoritarian government would be requiring compliance with strict rules and enforce those rules with force. That would eliminate the autonomy and choice of citizens. This is not the policy that Sweden has invoked.

Notice that instead of looking at Swedish authoritarianism, you begin this paragraph with a definiton of what you would expect from ordinary authoritarianism. If you look at the articles I've linked to instead, you will see how Swedish authoritarianism is described. You don't even need to go further than my quotations from some of those articles, for instance: "one of the distinctive features of Swedish political culture is that it is both more authoritarian and (!!!) more democratic than the European norm." (my (!!!), dann)

Quote:
Instead, the Swedish government is very soft in its policy. This allows Swedish citizens to exercise more caution than the government is requiring. This policy as I understand its implementation is the opposite of authoritarian.

You obviously choose the point where Swedish authoritarianism differs from the ordinary kind, the one you expect when you hear the word, but at the same time you invent a feature of it that doesn't distinguish it from any other response to the coronavirus: I haven't yet heard of any government forbidding its citizens to "exercise more caution than the government is requiring."
Have you?

Quote:
There exist many times more freedom in the latter than the former.
Well, maybe. In comparison with Denmark, I notice that Sweden allows groups of as many as 50 people where Denmark says 10. (And I haven't yet heard any politicians telling us that we are not allowed to practice our own restrictions and exercise more caution by never being in groups larger than 4!)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th April 2020, 12:21 AM   #158
dann
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Just to add extra comparison:
Czech Republic 16,6
Neighboring countries/regions:
Finland 13
Færøerne 0
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th April 2020, 12:25 AM   #159
dann
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Agree. A better way would be to say that citizens of Sweden have high levels of compliance with their authorities...which means leaders don't need to be "authoritarian".

What is your definition of compliance? It seems to be that if only the citizens accept and obey the commands of the authorities, then there is no authoritarianism. (I don't know what your "" are supposed to imply.)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th April 2020, 12:34 AM   #160
dann
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Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng View Post
It certainly is an unusual usage of the word! Perhaps what is meant is that the government has put it all in the hands of their leading health-authority, dr Tegnell.

No, that's not the point. If you want to get the point, you should instead look at the arguments that have been presented in this thread by Arcade22 and uke2se.
Compare this sentence:
"one of the distinctive features of Swedish political culture is that it is both more authoritarian and more democratic than the European norm."
with this description of Swedish political culture:
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
About Swedish trust in authority, that's pretty much correct. It's more or less a given in Swedish culture to trust what authorities say, or at the very least, obey. Debate is welcome and often quite fierce - as is the case right now about the matters under discussion in this thread - but it is still up to the authorities to make a decision and expect that decision to be followed. I'd say that's more or less how a Democracy is supposed to function. It could be construed that this makes us vulnerable to unscrupulous politicians, but we also have a strong press and, as I said, the debate is fierce. Over all, authorities are manned by people, and we sort of rely on them making decisions that benefit all people.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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