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Tags Coronavirus , Sweden incidents , Sweden issues

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Old 16th April 2020, 01:00 AM   #161
Sherkeu
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
What is your definition of compliance? It seems to be that if only the citizens accept and obey the commands of the authorities, then there is no authoritarianism. (I don't know what your "" are supposed to imply.)
Maybe short-term death toll numbers don't scare Swedes into rebellion. Perhaps they are culturally better at seeing long term strategies, even when the immediate landscape may look scary. They could very well be right.

You seem to imply that the Sweden is making obviously stupid decisions and the people follow based purely on blind faith.
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Old 16th April 2020, 01:02 AM   #162
dann
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Nuke the Øresund Bridge from orbit! It's the only way to be sure!!

I think Norway has armed soldiers at the border to Sweden, which is a pretty unusual step to take in a Scandinavian context. Norwegians visiting Sweden for the Easter holidays were ordered to self-quarantine for 14 days when they returned: Tusinder sendt hjem i karantæne efter "harrytur" til Sverige (Berlingske, April 15, 2020)

But I don't really know if there are any restrictions for people crossing the border between Sweden and Denmark. I haven't considered visiting Sweden recently.
I can see that some politicians are worried about gang members spreading the virus when they cross Øresundsbroen. I guess outlaw bikers aren't too worried about quarantines.
Rigspolitiet bekræfter: Bandemedlemmer kører over Øresund trods grænselukning (Dit Overblik, April 7, 2020)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th April 2020, 01:03 AM   #163
dann
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Maybe short-term death toll numbers don't scare Swedes into rebellion. Perhaps they are culturally better at seeing long term strategies, even when the immediate landscape may look scary. They could very well be right.

You seem to imply that the Sweden is making obviously stupid decisions and the people follow based purely on blind faith.

Yes, more or less. If you read the thread, you'll know. (I don't usually imply much. I tend to say what I mean.)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 16th April 2020 at 01:04 AM.
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Old 16th April 2020, 02:44 AM   #164
Ulf Nereng
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I think Norway has armed soldiers at the border to Sweden, which is a pretty unusual step to take in a Scandinavian context. Norwegians visiting Sweden for the Easter holidays were ordered to self-quarantine for 14 days when they returned: Tusinder sendt hjem i karantæne efter "harrytur" til Sverige (Berlingske, April 15, 2020)

But I don't really know if there are any restrictions for people crossing the border between Sweden and Denmark. I haven't considered visiting Sweden recently.
I can see that some politicians are worried about gang members spreading the virus when they cross Øresundsbroen. I guess outlaw bikers aren't too worried about quarantines.
Rigspolitiet bekræfter: Bandemedlemmer kører over Øresund trods grænselukning (Dit Overblik, April 7, 2020)
The soldiers are from "Heimevernet", which is a sort of militia that can be mobilized at extremely short notice. Their personal weapons and uniforms are stored at home.

And people going on "harrytur" at this time is the kind of thing that makes me marvel at how blindingly stupid it is possible for some people to be.
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Old 16th April 2020, 05:34 AM   #165
dann
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Jan Guillou is not alone: Corona gör klassamhället tydligare än någonsin (Aftenbladet, April 16, 2020)

​Dödsfall: 1,333 (Aftenposten, April 16, 2020), up 130 since yesterday.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th April 2020, 05:37 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng View Post
And people going on "harrytur" ...

Why is it called a "harrytur"?!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th April 2020, 06:42 AM   #167
Ulf Nereng
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Why is it called a "harrytur"?!
Connotations with the name "Harry" and a low-brow sub-culture associated with it. It's not quite the same sub-culture as loud Norwegians going to Aarhus by ferry to get overly drunk and buy things that are cheaper than in Norway, but related.
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Old 16th April 2020, 08:48 AM   #168
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That makes sense, but in Denmark the principle has usually been used by elitist high-school teachers and was reserved for high-school students from the working classes when one specific name had been particularly popular in the working classes for a couple of years. About 30 years ago, it was used to categorize students called Brian, then came Thomas (usually pronounced Dhomas as if by somebody who wasn't very bright), and I think Dennis was in there somewhere as well.
Always elitist! It never happened to names that were popular in the upper classes.

But here is a sketch (2016) about two upper-class twits fantasizing about an epidemic that can wipe out people in the poor neighborhoods of Copenhagen and other parts of Denmark: "Sydhavnen, Nordvest, Lolland-Falster":
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th April 2020, 09:17 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
ETA: Just to add, I've heard Sweden's response described as relying on herd-immunity. This is not the case. It's not what Sweden is doing. Sweden is and has been operating under the approach that while a majority of the population will be infected, the aim is to increase the time-span so that health services aren't overwhelmed.

The chief epidemiologist seems to disagree with you and rely on herd immunity:
Tegnell: ”Börjar se effekt av en flockimmunitet” (Aftonbladet, April 16, 2020)
Tegnell: "Beginning to see the impact of herd immunity"
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th April 2020, 09:26 AM   #170
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A popular TV host has died of Covid-19, 51 years of age:
Adam Alsings sista tid – vännerna berättar (Aftenbladet, April 16, 2020)
And it's one of those lives, that might have been saved by a stricter strategy.
His friends mention that he was probably infected at a party some weeks ago - along with many others.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th April 2020, 10:45 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
A popular TV host has died of Covid-19, 51 years of age:
Adam Alsings sista tid – vännerna berättar (Aftenbladet, April 16, 2020)
And it's one of those lives, that might have been saved by a stricter strategy.
His friends mention that he was probably infected at a party some weeks ago - along with many others.
That is sad news, especially considering his age. With his job, I'm sure he knew there was some risk, however small, in attending the party.

25 days ago, on March 22, the Swedish PM said:

“We all now have great individual responsibility. There will be a few decisive moments in life when you must make sacrifices, not only for your own sake but also to take responsibility for those around you, for your fellow humans and for our country. That moment is now. That day has come.”

The high schools and universities had closed, gatherings over 50 had been banned, people were encouraged to work from home, and 'at risk' populations told to isolate. The health agency recommended citizens 'avoid unnecessary gatherings'. Businesses remained open, but people were expected to have caution for themselves and others.

So while it is a sad outcome, it was ultimately his personal decision.

Last edited by Sherkeu; 16th April 2020 at 10:46 AM.
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Old 16th April 2020, 10:48 AM   #172
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Other than all the deaths on the way, the biggest problem I can see with herd immunity is that we don't even know if that's possible. We do know that other coronaviruses only confer immunity for about a year. Unless this one is novel in that regard, then herd immunity simply won't happen.
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Old 16th April 2020, 10:57 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Other than all the deaths on the way, the biggest problem I can see with herd immunity is that we don't even know if that's possible. We do know that other coronaviruses only confer immunity for about a year. Unless this one is novel in that regard, then herd immunity simply won't happen.
The problem is that viruses mutate, especially when they're left to run wild.
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Old 16th April 2020, 11:48 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Other than all the deaths on the way, the biggest problem I can see with herd immunity is that we don't even know if that's possible. We do know that other coronaviruses only confer immunity for about a year. Unless this one is novel in that regard, then herd immunity simply won't happen.
From my understanding, 'herd immunity' should really be called 'herd resistance' because people can easily be reinfected after a year or so, but at lower levels and often no symptoms. However, as you said, this is only true if this novel virus behaves in a similar way. It should, but it just is not known.
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Old 16th April 2020, 11:56 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
So while it is a sad outcome, it was ultimately his personal decision.

Going to a party? Yes, I guess it was. It was also the personal decision of the infector/infectors who went to that party and infected the other guests. And if going to the party meant that he, Adam Alsing, personally decided to contract it and infect somebody else, then that was ultimately his decision too!
(I.e. you seem to think that those 'personal decisions' affect only the person making them. In this situation, they don't! They affect everybody else the person comes into contact with. By the way, it is far from unheard of that a 51-year-old gets infected, but it's still pretty unusual and unexpected. His personal decision in this case may have been influenced by a delusion that it's a disease that kills the elderly and the infirm exclusively, and since he believed himself to be neither one of those things ... )
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 16th April 2020 at 12:07 PM.
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Old 16th April 2020, 11:58 AM   #176
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CNN (April 14, 2020)
This country isn't enforcing a lockdown. See how it's going:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
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(Yes, the country is Sweden.)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 16th April 2020 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 17th April 2020, 01:36 AM   #177
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Weird graphics!

Här sprider sig det nya coronaviruset (SVT.se)

Scroll down to Läget i världen - Utveckling i Sverige och grannländerna.

The numbers appear to be correct, but what are the graphics supposed to illustrate?
Is this a deliberate attempt to make it seem as if Sweden isn't doing so bad in comparison to its neighbors - in spite of the numbers?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 17th April 2020, 02:14 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
The chief epidemiologist seems to disagree with you and rely on herd immunity:
Tegnell: ”Börjar se effekt av en flockimmunitet” (Aftonbladet, April 16, 2020)
Tegnell: "Beginning to see the impact of herd immunity"
That's not him disagreeing with me. That's him answering a question about herd immunity.
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Old 17th April 2020, 02:19 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Här sprider sig det nya coronaviruset (SVT.se)

Scroll down to Läget i världen - Utveckling i Sverige och grannländerna.

The numbers appear to be correct, but what are the graphics supposed to illustrate?
Is this a deliberate attempt to make it seem as if Sweden isn't doing so bad in comparison to its neighbors - in spite of the numbers?
The graphics illustrate a graph of deaths over time. It's meant to illustrate deaths over time. So, the answer to your question is 'no'.
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Old 17th April 2020, 03:33 AM   #180
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So, Denmark is now loosening up the lockdown. First, schools for young children, then hairdressers and tattoo parlours.

Coronavirus: Denmark to reopen hairdressers as it loosens lockdown https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52322249
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Old 17th April 2020, 07:07 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
The graphics illustrate a graph of deaths over time. It's meant to illustrate deaths over time. So, the answer to your question is 'no'.

And yet it makes it appear as if Iceland for two days had many more deaths than Sweden, in spite of the country having had no more than eight deaths in total so far!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 17th April 2020, 07:13 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
And yet it makes it appear as if Iceland for two days had many more deaths than Sweden, in spite of the country having had no more than eight deaths in total so far!
I'm no matematician or statistician, but that's not how I read that graphic.
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Old 17th April 2020, 07:15 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
That's not him disagreeing with me. That's him answering a question about herd immunity.

And yet
Quote:
Den svenske corona-strateg Anders Tegnell erkender, at man skal være bedre til at beskytte de ældre, men at man arbejder mod flokimmunitet.
Den svenske corona-strateg: Vi kan skimte en form for flokimmunitet (TV2.dk, April 16, 2020)
The Swedish corona strategist Anders Tegnell acknowledges that they should be better at protecting the elderly, but that they are working towards herd immunity.
The Swedish corona strategist: We can make out a kind of herd immunity
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 17th April 2020, 07:30 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
So, Denmark is now loosening up the lockdown. First, schools for young children, then hairdressers and tattoo parlours.

Coronavirus: Denmark to reopen hairdressers as it loosens lockdown https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52322249

Yes, schools for young children, the first five years, started this week, and hairdressers will be allowed to open up again next week. I didn't know about tattoo parlours, but I also haven't felt that I was badly in need of a tattoo these past few weeks - or ever.
I guess that the tattooist as well as the tattooee will be able to wear masks. The hairdresser, too. But it will be difficult for people getting their hair cut to do so. Maybe hairdryers can be refurbished to suck the germs away from the working space ... and then later turned into ventilators when the hairdressers get infected in spite of their masks.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 17th April 2020, 07:32 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I'm no matematician or statistician, but that's not how I read that graphic.
Me neither, which is why I wrote, "... make it seem as if ..."
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 18th April 2020, 01:40 AM   #186
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Quote:
Til maj vil tre til fire procent af svenskerne være immune overfor coronavirus, vurderer Anders Tegnell.
Selvom der nu er 1.400 svenskere, som har mistet livet til coronavirus, mener Sveriges statsepidemiolog, Anders Tegnell, at landets kamp mod virusset er på rette vej.
Nemlig mod flokimmunitet
(...)
I Sverige håber Folkhälsomyndigheten på, at man er bedre rustet til at håndtere anden bølge af coronasmitte, når den kommer til efteråret, hvis flest muligt inden da har haft sygdommen og derved er immune.
Hvor mange, der skal smittes for at have den effekt, har Anders Tegnell også et bud på.
- Det er når op mod 15-20 procent af befolkningen har haft sygdommen, at man for alvor ser en påvirkning på spredningshastigheden, siger han.
Han påpeger også, at han egentlig ville foretrække, hvis endnu flere var immune, så Sverige bedre kan stå imod den anden bølge.
Statsepidemiolog: Sverige sigter efter flokimmunitet (DR.dk, April 18, 2020)
In May, three to four percent of Swedes will be immune to the coronavirus, Anders Tegnell estimates.
Even though more than 1,400 Swedes have lost their lives to coronavirus, Sweden's state epidemiologist Anders Tegnell thinks that the country's battle against the virus is on the right track, i.e. towards herd immunity.
(...)
In Sweden the Department of Health hopes that they will be better suited for the second wave of corona infections when it begins in Autumn if as many as possible have had the disease by then and are consequently immune.
Anders Tegnell also has a claim about how many people need to be infected for this effect to be achieved.
- When about 15 to 20 percent of the population have had the disease, that is the point where you really see an impact on the speed with which the disease spreads, he says.
He also states that he would actually prefer even more to have become immune so that Sweden can resist the second wave better.
State epidemiologist: Sweden is aiming at herd immunity


Unfortunately, Anders Tegnell's preference for even more having become immune implies that even more have fallen ill and even more have died!
He actually seems to be one of those guys who think that: infection = vaccination!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 18th April 2020, 05:22 AM   #187
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You can't actually get herd immunity by letting a virus loose to do as it pleases. It's very clear that only vaccination can achieve this.

I would have thought that anyone bright enough to tie their own shoelaces would realise the big flaw in the assertion that the best way to protect a population from a deadly virus is to let most people get it. But apparently not.
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Old 18th April 2020, 06:17 AM   #188
dann
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I haven't yet seen evidence that Anders Tegnell can tie his own shoelaces.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 18th April 2020, 06:21 AM   #189
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One hour ago: 111 new corona deaths in Sweden since yesterday. Now 1,511, up from 1,400.
Quote:
Inrapporterade siffror från Folkhälsomyndigheten, lördagen den 18 april:
• 111 nya dödsfall i covid-19 i Sverige.
• Det totala dödsantalet i Sverige stiger därmed till 1 511.
• 1 054 coronasmittade personer har fått intensivvård i Sverige.
• Folkhälsomyndigheten rapporterar in att 13 822 personer har testats positivt för viruset i Sverige.
Senaste nytt om coronaviruset (SVT.se, April 18, 2020)

The region Skåne is doing much better than other parts of Sweden. So far, they have only had 42 corona deaths. Stockholm 897:
Quote:
So far Skåne County has been doing better Stockholm and Western Götaland during the corona pandemic.
The regional council thinks that the reason is the very tough precautions that were taken very soon:
- We banned visits to all hospitals early on, and many of our 33 municipalities followed our lead immediately after, says Carl Johan Sonesson (from the party Moderaterna).
Skåne not as hard hit as Stockholm: Introduced tough precautions (Aftonbladet, April 18, 2020)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 18th April 2020, 06:37 AM   #190
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In Denmark, a test center consisting of tents is being erected by the police in one of the largest parks in Copenhagen, next to the National Hospital:
Hvide test-telte skyder op: Rigspolitiet graver og bygger i Fælledparken (DR.dk, April 18, 2020)

And in other parts of the country, too: Testtelte skyder op flere steder i landet (TV2.dk, April 18, 2020)

And Tivoli, the amusement park in the center of Copenhagen, is being turned into a kindergarten because day-care centres are at full capacity! Daginstitutionerne er fyldt op: Nu skal børn passes i Tivoli (DR.dk, April 18, 2020)

Denmark has had 10 coronavirus deaths since yesterday. The total is now 346.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 18th April 2020 at 06:55 AM.
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Old 19th April 2020, 10:33 AM   #191
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The confidence in Tegnell and Löfven is growing (Aftonbladet.se, April 19, 2020)

Sweden’s neighbours seem to be astonished to see that ...
Quote:
… 71 percent say that they have great confidence in the Public Health Agency. That is the institution responsible for the Swedish strategy in the fight against the coronavirus, which is led by Anders Tegnell. It is well-known that Sweden has a different approach than almost all the rest of the world.
(…)
In the previous poll, the Swedish government had the support of 53 percent. That is up from 34 percent in March.
Swedes have confidence in the government (Aftenposten.no, April 19, 2020)
My translations from Norwegian and Swedish.

Having overtaken Ireland and Luxembourg, the USA is now right behind Sweden on the list of deaths per million:
Sverige 153
USA 119

However, it took the USA 49 days to get there, Sweden only 38.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 19th April 2020, 11:45 AM   #192
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Is anyone looking at these numbers taking into account the timeline of introduction of the virus into the country. Comparing it to Italy which saw large numbers early on, even Spain's high numbers were delayed compared to Italy.

From Wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_c...emic_in_Sweden
Quote:
The ongoing pandemic of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19), caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), was confirmed to have reached Sweden on 31 January 2020, when a woman returning from Wuhan tested positive.
Yes but:
Quote:
On 26 February, following outbreaks in Italy and in Iran, multiple travel-related clusters appeared in Sweden. Community transmission was confirmed on 9 March in the Stockholm region. Since then, individuals in every län (county) have tested positive for COVID-19. The first death was reported on 11 March in Stockholm, a case of community transmission.
Compared to Italy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_c...demic_in_Italy
Quote:
An ongoing pandemic of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19), a novel infectious disease caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), was first confirmed to have spread to Italy on 31 January 2020, when two Chinese tourists in Rome tested positive for the virus.[2] One week later an Italian man repatriated back to Italy from the city of Wuhan, China, was hospitalised and confirmed as the third case in Italy.[3] A cluster of cases was later detected, starting with 16 confirmed cases in Lombardy on 21 February,[4] and 60 additional cases and the first deaths on 22 February.[5] By the beginning of March, the virus had spread to all regions of Italy.[6]
Other variables are population density and cultural variables.

The point is just that we need to look at multiple variables here and be cautious comparing countries.

So far Sweden has failed to protect the elderly, something that supposedly their method was supposed to do.
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Old 19th April 2020, 02:16 PM   #193
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Interesting comparison of Norway, Denmark and Sweden:

I have taken the numbers from these curves comparing different countries:
Døde siden første dødsfald (TV2, April 19, 2020) = (Total number of) deaths since first death

Day No: 08 - 11 - 14 - 17 -- 20 -- 23 --- 26 --- 29 --- 32 ---- 35 ---- 38
Number of deaths:
Norway: 07 - 14 - 23 - 39 -- 59 -- 76 -- 108 - 128 - 150 -- 164
Denmark:15 - 25 - 43 - 76 -110 - 170 - 214 - 254 - 292 -- 330 -- 355
Sweden: 11 - 21 - 62 - 105 -180 -358 - 477 - 793 - 899 -1203 - 1511

I wasn't aware that Denmark was ahead of Sweden at the beginning of the pandemic.

Population:
Norway: 5,378,857
Denmark: 5,771,876
Sweden: 10,036,379
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 19th April 2020, 02:23 PM   #194
dann
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So far Sweden has failed to protect the elderly, something that supposedly their method was supposed to do.

They will be protected by herd immunity when they are all dead.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 19th April 2020, 04:22 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Interesting comparison of Norway, Denmark and Sweden:

I have taken the numbers from these curves comparing different countries:
Døde siden første dødsfald (TV2, April 19, 2020) = (Total number of) deaths since first death

Day No: 08 - 11 - 14 - 17 -- 20 -- 23 --- 26 --- 29 --- 32 ---- 35 ---- 38
Number of deaths:
Norway: 07 - 14 - 23 - 39 -- 59 -- 76 -- 108 - 128 - 150 -- 164
Denmark:15 - 25 - 43 - 76 -110 - 170 - 214 - 254 - 292 -- 330 -- 355
Sweden: 11 - 21 - 62 - 105 -180 -358 - 477 - 793 - 899 -1203 - 1511

I wasn't aware that Denmark was ahead of Sweden at the beginning of the pandemic.

Population:
Norway: 5,378,857
Denmark: 5,771,876
Sweden: 10,036,379
Excellent data, thanks. Sweden's population is twice as large but then at the end the number of deaths goes well beyond double the other countries.
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.
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Old 19th April 2020, 05:28 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Excellent data,thanks.
Yes, we should all thank those Swedes who made the ultimate sacrifice to give us that information.

What Sweden is doing is very important, and we shouldn't discourage them from it. If every country had responded to the virus appropriately the denialists would argue we didn't need to, and we wouldn't have any data to refute it. But Sweden is proving them wrong.

Once again, thank you Sweden for taking one for the team!
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Old 19th April 2020, 05:29 PM   #197
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Oh, it's not just Sweden...
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Old 19th April 2020, 10:00 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
The confidence in Tegnell and Löfven is growing (Aftonbladet.se, April 19, 2020)

Sweden’s neighbours seem to be astonished to see that ...


My translations from Norwegian and Swedish.

Having overtaken Ireland and Luxembourg, the USA is now right behind Sweden on the list of deaths per million:
Sverige 153
USA 119

However, it took the USA 49 days to get there, Sweden only 38.
Have not the newspapers that you love to cite explain that comparing death and infection rates between different countries based on official statistics is not a good idea unless you can be certain that they are being recorded in the same way?
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And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann
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Old 19th April 2020, 10:17 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So far Sweden has failed to protect the elderly, something that supposedly their method was supposed to do.
I don't know where you are getting your information from but the Swedish "method" is the same as everyone else. The only the significant difference in term of strategy is that Sweden has so not enacted widespread "lockdown" and curfews. Beyond that Sweden is doing just as well, if not even much better than many other European countries are.

Then again it's pretty hard to compare when some countries don't even count the dead in care homes.
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And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann
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Old 19th April 2020, 10:25 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I don't know where you are getting your information from but the Swedish "method" is the same as everyone else. The only the significant difference in term of strategy is that Sweden has so not enacted widespread "lockdown" and curfews. Beyond that Sweden is doing just as well, if not even much better than many other European countries are.

Then again it's pretty hard to compare when some countries don't even count the dead in care homes.
I get it about comparisons with other countries. But comparing 3 Scandinavian countries who saw their first cases at similar timeframes is surely valid.

As for where did I hear about the Swedish method, we've been discussing it in this thread. There was a claim by some expert that the same thing was recommended in the UK, protect the vulnerable and let everyone else get it. But shortly after that published analysis the expert withdrew that recommendation and recommended a lock down.

There are a number of articles linked to in this thread where the Swedes hoped to protect the vulnerable of which the elderly are included, while they let the virus take its natural course. It's not working.


But by all means, being on the front line there, you tell us what is going on. What is your evidence Sweden is doing so well without a lockdown?

Again, I'm not using any other EU country comparison except what Dann posted. I said, "The point is just that we need to look at multiple variables here and be cautious comparing countries."

Just today the news was a nursing home in Sweden had a serious outbreak. I watch a lot of German (DK) and other international news sources on TV. I'll try to find a web source.
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 19th April 2020 at 10:32 PM.
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