ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags antifa , protest incidents

Reply
Old 7th June 2020, 08:20 AM   #161
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: It was Lothian's idea
Posts: 11,009
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Because ANTIFA can do no wrong?
No, because they are embellishing antifa with powers, organization, and financial backing that they are known not to have. They don't charter buses and have pallets of bricks schlepped around. They are largely a bunch of broke-ass kids who throw down against Nazi type demonstrators, then they go home. Antifa and anarchists don't organize effectively pretty much by definition. Let me see you get 40 anarchists to raise money and charter a bus, much less show up on time.
__________________

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th June 2020, 09:30 AM   #162
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 11,371
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
So no actual, factual, response then....


Maybe it's time for this.
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Definitely! That was some efficient Nazi punching.
'Oh, the poor fascists! Their freedom of speech is being suppressed!'
I didn't see any of them getting egged. That must have been a mistake.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th June 2020, 10:02 AM   #163
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,283
Happened last week in a small wealthy community near me. Rumors of anarchists and rioters coming up to their suburban town to loot, rampage and eat the rich. But because the town occupants are wealthy they didn’t have to protect the town with axe handles and golf clubs themselves; instead they got 15 National Guardsmen in to protect them. Probably one for every 5 houses.

The show of force scared away the evil invaders so effectively that there wasn’t even a hint of the rumored invasion, or even of the rumored anarchists.

I’m thinking of starting a bus rental service for Antifa. Given they are busing rioters and anarchists into every demonstration I should make a fortune. I’ll decorate the interiors with Che posters and black flags. But cash only, upfront!

Last edited by Giordano; 7th June 2020 at 10:08 AM.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th June 2020, 10:05 AM   #164
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,283
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
No, because they are embellishing antifa with powers, organization, and financial backing that they are known not to have. They don't charter buses and have pallets of bricks schlepped around. They are largely a bunch of broke-ass kids who throw down against Nazi type demonstrators, then they go home. Antifa and anarchists don't organize effectively pretty much by definition. Let me see you get 40 anarchists to raise money and charter a bus, much less show up on time.
“Hey fellow Anarchists! If you ever expect to succeed you are going to have to get better organized!”
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th June 2020, 10:06 AM   #165
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,283
Shouldn’t there be a lot of common ground between Anarchists and Republicans? Aren’t they both in favor of much smaller government?
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th June 2020, 10:27 AM   #166
Cavemonster
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,900
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
No, because they are embellishing antifa with powers, organization, and financial backing that they are known not to have. They don't charter buses and have pallets of bricks schlepped around. They are largely a bunch of broke-ass kids who throw down against Nazi type demonstrators, then they go home. Antifa and anarchists don't organize effectively pretty much by definition. Let me see you get 40 anarchists to raise money and charter a bus, much less show up on time.
I used to run in antifa circles and my general feeling is that both Trump's "They're a terrorist organization" and "They're anarchists, the term antifa is just a feeling with no organized action associated!" are both off the mark.

Sure, there's no single organization called "antifa" but there are a fair number of groups who take up the label and engage in black bloc or similar tactics.

A major chunk of the people I've known who associated with antifa are also involved with a lot of other activist work. Many of them had day jobs with nonprofits. The idea that they would be unable to organize because they're "anarchists" I think is an equivocation. There were no shortages of professionals at organizing. They're not training pilots to fly into buildings, but chartering a bus isn't beyond the financial and organizational capacity of the folks I've known.

Trump is still inventing a bogeyman that isn't there. Beating up a neo-nazi or smashing a Mcdonald's window is about as far as they're looking to go. And the numbers are still miniscule unless I'm missing something.
__________________
The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon.
-G.K. CHESTERTON
Cavemonster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th June 2020, 10:30 AM   #167
Cavemonster
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,900
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Shouldn’t there be a lot of common ground between Anarchists and Republicans? Aren’t they both in favor of much smaller government?
Anarcho-capitalists and anarcho-socialists both believe that if you get government out of the way, people will naturally fall into their prefered model (oversimplified, but that's it when you strip it all down).

But in the meantime neither seem to be in too much of a hurry to dissolve their favorite parts of government. People on the right (except for a tiny chunk of the more extreme libertarians) don't want to shrink government in a way that minimizes policing or the military. People on the left won't give up welfare or safety nets.
__________________
The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon.
-G.K. CHESTERTON
Cavemonster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th June 2020, 10:58 AM   #168
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6,560
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
I'm waiting for your to condemn the thuggery of Sam Adams and his 'Sons of Liberty'....
If he used violence, threats of violence, harassment or other equivalent means to suppress peoples ability to peacefully and legally hold demonstrations or otherwise publicly propagate their views then I'd condemn him for doing so.

I personally find that Neo-Nazis, racist far-right extremists and other people or organisations that are explicitly or implicitly hostile towards liberal democracy should not be legally allowed to engage in public demonstrations or other forms of political activism of that kind. Not only do they seek to abolish liberal democracy, but given their often thinly veiled violent hostility towards ethnic, racial, religious, linguistic or national minorities can cause significant anxiety and fear among said minority groups.

If they are then the appropriate response is not to use violence or harassment to shut them down, but instead argue for the laws to be changed.
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann

Last edited by Arcade22; 7th June 2020 at 11:03 AM.
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th June 2020, 11:04 AM   #169
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,078
Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Anarcho-capitalists and anarcho-socialists both believe that if you get government out of the way, people will naturally fall into their prefered model (oversimplified, but that's it when you strip it all down).

But in the meantime neither seem to be in too much of a hurry to dissolve their favorite parts of government. People on the right (except for a tiny chunk of the more extreme libertarians) don't want to shrink government in a way that minimizes policing or the military. People on the left won't give up welfare or safety nets.
I suspect a large number of FMOTL, minimalist types would profoundly regret the extinction of first-world style government.
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th June 2020, 02:01 PM   #170
Cavemonster
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,900
Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
I suspect a large number of FMOTL, minimalist types would profoundly regret the extinction of first-world style government.
I suspect that everyone has at least one facet of government they'd miss intensely and have a heck of a time trying to make up for with some non-governmental approach.

Pandemic response comes to mind. This administration did a crap job, but loose collectives of voluntary associations with profoundly different values and procedures would make this response look like a work of art.
__________________
The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon.
-G.K. CHESTERTON
Cavemonster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th June 2020, 07:30 PM   #171
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 48,226
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
No, because they are embellishing antifa with powers, organization, and financial backing that they are known not to have. They don't charter buses and have pallets of bricks schlepped around. They are largely a bunch of broke-ass kids who throw down against Nazi type demonstrators, then they go home. Antifa and anarchists don't organize effectively pretty much by definition. Let me see you get 40 anarchists to raise money and charter a bus, much less show up on time.
Tbis. I don't have much love for Antifa (despite my being a very strong Anti Fascist0 not because they are anti fascist but a lof the ideas the more extreme factions advocateadvocate vary from stupid (the anarachist) to little better then fascism (the Maoist Hard Lline Marcist crowd0.
But they don't have anywhere near the power and ailibty that the right is trying to abscirbe to them.
In fact, a lot of the looting seems to have been done done not by the Antifa types but some criminal types making the most of opportunity. with no motives except llining their own pocket.
In fact I think Antifa could not revolt it's way out of a paper bag. Whole thing has been blown up by right wing media to discredit all demonstrators.
It does not help that some of the right wing commentartors are 6the same ones who excuse away the out and out racists at right wing events.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th June 2020, 10:55 PM   #172
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 11,371
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
And again. Klamath Falls this time, same story: small local protest, and the local community receives warnings about "antifa buses" full of looters on their way and due to arrive any minute, leading platoons of Gomers to show up to protect businesses from nobody.

That is astonishing. This level of paranoia can probably drive people to do anything. Some of those guys look like the ones who killed Ahmaud Arbery a few weeks ago.
It appears to be far worse than the War of the Worlds panic, which was probably made up anyway - unlike this one.

Some of them come to their senses when the antifa invasion never happens, but others insist that they have warded it off, i.e. they are so obsessed with the fantasy created by Trump and Barr that they cannot accept that it is only a fantasy even though nothing happens and the busses full of looting antifas never appear. They are like the end-of-the-world cults who can't accept that it didn't happen after all and come up with the explanation that their praying must have stopped God from fulfilling what their preachers prophesied - but with an awful lot of guns!

Quote:
The armed man who livestreamed the protest, who was worried about antifa coming to murder white people, posted an update to his Facebook page acknowledging the risks had been overblown. "I know your hearts and minds were in the right place," he wrote, "but a lot of the info was bad."

Still others remain convinced that antifa had been there that night, run off by the sight of hundreds of armed patriots.

And that’s the story spreading online.

"Antifa RETREATS From Suburb After Business Owner and Neighborhood Show Up With Guns," stated the headline on the website NewsPunch, one of the internet’s most notorious fake news destinations. The article quotes a Facebook post by Dan Kline, the owner of a local billiards bar.
In Klamath Falls, Oregon, victory declared over antifa, which never showed up (NBC News, June 6, 2020)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 7th June 2020 at 11:46 PM.
dann is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th June 2020, 11:34 PM   #173
EHocking
Philosopher
 
EHocking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 7,765
Originally Posted by dann View Post
That is astonishing. This level of paranoia can probably drive people to do anything. Some of those guys look like the ones who killed the Ahmaud Arbery a few weeks ago.
It appears to be far worse than the War of the Worlds panic, which was probably made up anyway - unlike this one.

Some of them come to their senses when the antifa invasion never happens, but others insist that they have warded it off, i.e. they are so obsessed with the fantasy created by Trump and Barr that they cannot accept that it is only a fantasy even though nothing happens and the busses full of looting antifas never appear. They are like the end-of-the-world cults who can't accept that it didn't happen after all and come up with the explanation that their praying must have stopped God from fulfilling what their preachers prophesied - but with awful lot of guns!
I wonder if they don't have a problem with tigers either.
I have a solution to that not-problem too. . .
__________________
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
"Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke
"It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite
You can't make up anything anymore. The world itself is a satire. All you're doing is recording it. Art Buchwald
EHocking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2020, 02:38 AM   #174
eirik
Muse
 
eirik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 729
Originally Posted by dann View Post
I assume that this is what he is talking about:

"In January 2007, the windows (in the house belonging to) a Sweden Democrats local politician in Kalmar were broken. On its homepage AFA Dackebygd claimed to be responsible."

If my assumption is correct, this is what he calls "center-right":



In other words, typically alt-right!
I don't think anybody but the Sweden Democrats themselves would refer to Sweden Democrats as "center-right."
Besides the questionable historical roots of the Sweden Democrats, today they're a mainstream political party with about 20 % of the national vote.

- Are you OK with "activists" vandalizing the home of elected politicians?
- Is it excusable if its homes of politicians with politics one don't agree with?
eirik is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2020, 03:17 AM   #175
eirik
Muse
 
eirik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 729
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Interesting factoid. The Socialist Rifle Association increased in membership by 20% in the last 2 weeks.

Well on our way to ending the right wing's monopoly on gun ownership. To our American forum members, there's probably a chapter near you. Cops and racists need not apply.

Leftists with guns could be useful for a thing later.

I teach new shooters for free. I imagine other chapters are likewise supportive. Time to gun up.
Wow …


Two questions: A lot of you guys seem knowledgeable of Antifa, so maybe you can help me out.

My non-expert impression of Antifa was that they're is a band of marxist hard liners, and they are prone to violence. Not mass shootings style of violence, but violent tactics like bullying, beatings etc. Am I conflating with black bloc-ish groups?

Are there really moderates in Antifa-groups or under the Antifa-banner, people in the moderate left or right who sincerely just opposes fascism?
eirik is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2020, 04:05 AM   #176
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 11,371
Let me recommend again Trevor Noah & The Daily Show's presentation of the very diverse group of people called antifa:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2020, 04:09 AM   #177
SuburbanTurkey
Illuminator
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 4,789
Originally Posted by powerdimer View Post
Wow …


Two questions: A lot of you guys seem knowledgeable of Antifa, so maybe you can help me out.

My non-expert impression of Antifa was that they're is a band of marxist hard liners, and they are prone to violence. Not mass shootings style of violence, but violent tactics like bullying, beatings etc. Am I conflating with black bloc-ish groups?

Are there really moderates in Antifa-groups or under the Antifa-banner, people in the moderate left or right who sincerely just opposes fascism?
There's a pretty big difference between American antifa vs European antifa, largely due to relative weakness of leftist politics in the US.

The most belligerent antifas are the most visible simply because violence catches all the attention.

As far as I can tell, Portland's "rose city antifa" is the closet thing to an organized, black bloc in the United States, and they are most known for fighting with likewise militant right-wing extremists like Patriot Prayer or Proud Boys. Of course, antifa doesn't enjoy the same cozy relationship with the local cops that right wing terrorists do, so they have to be more cautious about how and when they use violence. Even this black-bloc group is nowhere near the size to warrant the absurd hysteria spread by right wing media.

There is a large "online antifa" community (though not organized) that engage in 100% lawful activities like exposing nazis and getting them fired or otherwise socially ostracized. They dox racist cops, they investigate and dox fascists who participate in street displays, and they track online organizations that are likely to commit acts of mass violence. This doesn't grab the same headlines as black-bloc skirmishing with neo-fascists, but it's a huge component of modern anti-fascism.

I'm curious about you "wow" comment. Does leftists arming up alarm you? Right wingers are armed to the teeth in this country and are constantly looking for provocation to kill their political enemies, often with the implicit blessing of law enforcement. Is arming in self defense an unreasonable response?
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 8th June 2020 at 04:18 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2020, 04:15 AM   #178
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,898
Originally Posted by powerdimer View Post
Besides the questionable historical roots of the Sweden Democrats, today they're a mainstream political party with about 20 % of the national vote.
We really shouldn't be normalizing our Nazi-party. 20% stupid people and racists don't make the party mainsteam.

Originally Posted by powerdimer View Post
- Are you OK with "activists" vandalizing the home of elected politicians?
If they are Nazis, sure.

Originally Posted by powerdimer View Post
- Is it excusable if its homes of politicians with politics one don't agree with?
If it's Nazism, sure.

Nazism isn't just "politics I disagree with".

"But the Sweden Democrats aren't nazis" I hear you complain. Sure, buddy. Nudge-nudge, wink-wink.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

Last edited by uke2se; 8th June 2020 at 04:16 AM.
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2020, 04:33 AM   #179
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 11,371
Originally Posted by powerdimer View Post
Besides the questionable historical roots of the Sweden Democrats, today they're a mainstream political party with about 20 % of the national vote.

- Are you OK with "activists" vandalizing the home of elected politicians?
- Is it excusable if its homes of politicians with politics one don't agree with?

Are you aware that in a situation when policemen are killing unarmed black people and protesters in the street, you are concerned about broken windows in a racist politician's house?

Sverigedemokraterna are no more "a mainstream political party" than all the other anti-immigration and anti-Muslim political parties that they are affiliated with. Pretending that you are no longer a Nazi is the whole point of the invention of alt-right. When a party's roots are "in Swedish fascism and white nationalism, but began distancing itself from its past during the late 1990s and early 2000s," it is clear to everybody that its distancing is pretense.

The only thing that makes Sverigedemokraterna differ from Euro Nazis is probably that the others aren't particularly concerned about the indigenous Swedish minority, the Sami people.

I don't think that the Danish People's Party, our local anti-immigration, anti-Muslim party, wants to take away the rights of Greenlanders, for instance. (But I wouldn't be very surprised if some of its members would.)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2020, 04:35 AM   #180
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 11,371
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
"But the Sweden Democrats aren't nazis" I hear you complain. Sure, buddy. Nudge-nudge, wink-wink.

You beat me to it!
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2020, 04:39 AM   #181
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 11,371
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Interesting factoid. The Socialist Rifle Association increased in membership by 20% in the last 2 weeks.

How many of those are undercover FBI agents?
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2020, 04:44 AM   #182
SuburbanTurkey
Illuminator
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 4,789
Originally Posted by dann View Post
How many of those are undercover FBI agents?
I'm sure some. We're not a right-wing paramilitary intent on killing civilians in a race-war, so I imagine we actually get some law enforcement attention.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2020, 05:07 AM   #183
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6,560
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
If they are Nazis, sure.



If it's Nazism, sure.

Nazism isn't just "politics I disagree with".
Apparently you don't even consider them to be people. They are untermenshen unworthy of even basic decency like respecting their security and sanctity of their own homes.
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann

Last edited by Arcade22; 8th June 2020 at 05:10 AM.
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2020, 05:10 AM   #184
SuburbanTurkey
Illuminator
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 4,789
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Apparently you don't even consider them to be people. They are untermenshen unworthy of even basic decency like respecting their safety and security of their own homes.
That's right. If they don't like it, they can stop being Nazis.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2020, 05:17 AM   #185
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6,560
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
That's right. If they don't like it, they can stop being Nazis.
No i hope they will call the cops and that the violent extremist criminals are caught. Though i must say that I'm glad you have decided to dispensed with any pretenses of caring about peoples freedoms and rights by supporting violence against people just because of their opinions.
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2020, 05:18 AM   #186
SuburbanTurkey
Illuminator
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 4,789
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
No i hope they will call the cops and that the violent extremist criminals are caught. Though i must say that I'm glad you have decided to dispensed with any pretenses of caring about peoples freedoms and rights by supporting violence against people just because of their opinions.
i too am glad we have an understanding.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2020, 05:19 AM   #187
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 11,371
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Apparently you don't even consider them to be people. They are untermenshen unworthy of even basic decency like respecting their security and sanctity of their own homes.

How did you describe the Swedish pandemic strategy of sacrificing vulnerable senior citizens because it would be better for the economy? (which it probably wasn't)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2020, 06:24 AM   #188
eirik
Muse
 
eirik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 729
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
There's a pretty big difference between American antifa vs European antifa, largely due to relative weakness of leftist politics in the US.

The most belligerent antifas are the most visible simply because violence catches all the attention.
Political violence catches attention all right. You think that's unfair?

Quote:
As far as I can tell, Portland's "rose city antifa" is the closet thing to an organized, black bloc in the United States, and they are most known for fighting with likewise militant right-wing extremists like Patriot Prayer or Proud Boys. Of course, antifa doesn't enjoy the same cozy relationship with the local cops that right wing terrorists do, so they have to be more cautious about how and when they use violence. Even this black-bloc group is nowhere near the size to warrant the absurd hysteria spread by right wing media.

There is a large "online antifa" community (though not organized) that engage in 100% lawful activities like exposing nazis and getting them fired or otherwise socially ostracized. They dox racist cops, they investigate and dox fascists who participate in street displays, and they track online organizations that are likely to commit acts of mass violence. This doesn't grab the same headlines as black-bloc skirmishing with neo-fascists, but it's a huge component of modern anti-fascism.
Interesting, thanks. Are there any moderates/centrists in the community, moderate left/moderate right etc.?

Quote:
I'm curious about you "wow" comment. Does leftists arming up alarm you?
Yes.

Quote:
Right wingers are armed to the teeth in this country and are constantly looking for provocation to kill their political enemies, often with the implicit blessing of law enforcement. Is arming in self defense an unreasonable response?
(my hilite)

Generally yes. I don't have strong opinions on US weapon laws, I live in Norway. My interpretation of history is that political violence is extremely dangerous to society in general, and it can get out of hand fast.

A political faction arming up "in self defence", with obvious hyperbolic reasoning like the one highlited -

Sigh. It sounds eerily similar to the extremist-rightwing survivalists arming up for the coming of The Chrisis. I want to be careful with equivocating separate phenomenas, the extreme right vs the extreme left, they are not the same. BUT: As I'm sure you know, Breivik defended his actions by claiming self defence, against a (paraphrasing from memory) violent and barbaric muslim invasion. And the extreme left has a long history of violence. Rote Arme Fraktion comes to mind, they ended in mid 90ties. (not able to post links yet)

I'm not sure why you would think it's wise to adopt the very tactic that separates the extreme right from the extreme left the last decades. The one thing that legitimately has made the extreme right a larger threat than the extreme left - the extreme violence and the bodycount.
eirik is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2020, 07:00 AM   #189
eirik
Muse
 
eirik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 729
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
We really shouldn't be normalizing our Nazi-party. 20% stupid people and racists don't make the party mainsteam.



If they are Nazis, sure.



If it's Nazism, sure.

Nazism isn't just "politics I disagree with".

"But the Sweden Democrats aren't nazis" I hear you complain. Sure, buddy. Nudge-nudge, wink-wink.
Yes, I'm aware of the tactic of calling people nazis somehow makes political violence and assault OK. Somehow I'm not convinced.

- Your honor, I did set fire to the mans house, but it was self defense, you see he was a [fascist/nazi/marxist/sunnimuslim/Antifa/catholic/Jew/democrat/republican]!!!!

This gets all the more obvious when there is no evidence for the politician in question, Thoralf Alfsson, actually IS a nazi. I suspect "nazi" is just code for "politician with views that don't conform to my particular hard left politics".

(In Thoralf Alfsson's wiki, there is mention of a fellow Swedish politician, who in a court case had to pay damages for calling him a nazi. That would be pretty weird, if he actually was a nazi.)
eirik is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2020, 07:03 AM   #190
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,898
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Apparently you don't even consider them to be people. They are untermenshen unworthy of even basic decency like respecting their security and sanctity of their own homes.
Pretty much, yes. Why am I not allowed to? It's their whole raison-d'ętre.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2020, 07:07 AM   #191
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,898
Originally Posted by powerdimer View Post
Yes, I'm aware of the tactic of calling people nazis somehow makes political violence and assault OK. Somehow I'm not convinced.
A party formed by a nazi who regularly wore nazi uniforms and had book burnings well into the mid 1990's. I don't think I'm making an unfair characterisation about them.

Originally Posted by powerdimer View Post
This gets all the more obvious when there is no evidence for the politician in question, Thoralf Alfsson, actually IS a nazi. I suspect "nazi" is just code for "politician with views that don't conform to my particular hard left politics".

(In Thoralf Alfsson's wiki, there is mention of a fellow Swedish politician, who in a court case had to pay damages for calling him a nazi. That would be pretty weird, if he actually was a nazi.)
Why would that be weird? He's a member of the nazi-party that get really angry if you call them nazis. Say what you will about the other nazi-parties in Sweden (yes, sadly there are several), at least they are honest about themselves.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2020, 07:08 AM   #192
SuburbanTurkey
Illuminator
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 4,789
Originally Posted by powerdimer View Post
Political violence catches attention all right. You think that's unfair?



Interesting, thanks. Are there any moderates/centrists in the community, moderate left/moderate right etc.?



Yes.

(my hilite)

Generally yes. I don't have strong opinions on US weapon laws, I live in Norway. My interpretation of history is that political violence is extremely dangerous to society in general, and it can get out of hand fast.

A political faction arming up "in self defence", with obvious hyperbolic reasoning like the one highlited -

Sigh. It sounds eerily similar to the extremist-rightwing survivalists arming up for the coming of The Chrisis. I want to be careful with equivocating separate phenomenas, the extreme right vs the extreme left, they are not the same. BUT: As I'm sure you know, Breivik defended his actions by claiming self defence, against a (paraphrasing from memory) violent and barbaric muslim invasion. And the extreme left has a long history of violence. Rote Arme Fraktion comes to mind, they ended in mid 90ties. (not able to post links yet)

I'm not sure why you would think it's wise to adopt the very tactic that separates the extreme right from the extreme left the last decades. The one thing that legitimately has made the extreme right a larger threat than the extreme left - the extreme violence and the bodycount.
Your hilite is not hyperbolic.

There have been numerous examples of local police coordinating with heavily armed right wing extremist groups. The police forces are heavily infiltrated by white supremacists.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2020, 07:46 AM   #193
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 11,371
Originally Posted by powerdimer View Post
(In Thoralf Alfsson's wiki, there is mention of a fellow Swedish politician, who in a court case had to pay damages for calling him a nazi. That would be pretty weird, if he actually was a nazi.)

Where do you see that? Thoralf_Alfsson (Wikipedia)

The other Swedish politician had to pay 5,000 SEK for having published a picture on his blog "of Alfsson as Adolf Hitler in uniform." It doesn't say that he called him a Nazi.
Quote:
... att pĺ sin blogg ha lagt ut en bild pĺ Alfsson som Adolf Hitler i uniform.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2020, 08:57 AM   #194
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6,560
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Pretty much, yes. Why am I not allowed to? It's their whole raison-d'ętre.
Because by supporting, if not inciting, violence against people who's opinions you disagree with you have already adopted the same kind of violent extremist mindset that make Neo-Nazi's dangerous in the first place.
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2020, 09:42 AM   #195
SuburbanTurkey
Illuminator
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 4,789
A Cop Was Filmed Telling Armed White Men To Avoid Arrest ''So We Don't Look Like We're Playing Favorites''

https://twitter.com/jjmacnab/status/1269781398597931008

Latest example of the Oregon police coordinating with armed Proud Boys, a violent right-wing extremist group.

The right wing is armed and the police are sympathetic to their calls for violence. There is no good reason for decent people to remain unarmed. Left leaning folks should familiarize themselves with how to shoot and remain vigilant against the danger of the right wing in this country.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2020, 04:35 PM   #196
eirik
Muse
 
eirik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 729
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
A party formed by a nazi who regularly wore nazi uniforms and had book burnings well into the mid 1990's. I don't think I'm making an unfair characterisation about them.
You think wrong. It's not that it's unfair, it's factually wrong and laughably ignorant.

But thanks for the sincere showing of support for outright political violence, and disdain for democracy. It's a useful perspective in this thread, the hard lefts authoritarian power fantasies laid bare.
__________________
"I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern without any superhuman authority behind it." -Albert Einstein
eirik is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2020, 04:40 PM   #197
eirik
Muse
 
eirik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 729
Sorry, this is actually Powerdimer. My old pc suddenly logged on to a user I thought was deleted years and years ago, that's why i created a new user Not trying to sockpuppet
eirik is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2020, 04:50 PM   #198
SuburbanTurkey
Illuminator
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 4,789
KKK leader drives car into crowd of peaceful protestors.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...ginia-n1227691

The score still remains:

antifa attacks on suburbs: 0
reactionary counter-protestor violence: >0
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2020, 06:56 PM   #199
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 20,532
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
KKK leader drives car into crowd of peaceful protestors.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...ginia-n1227691

The score still remains:

antifa attacks on suburbs: 0
reactionary counter-protestor violence: >0
A black lives matter protest cost me five minutes on my drive home, so it is pretty much the same thing.*





*Not actually true, I'm still working from home. But I can pretend like it happened to make the scales even, right?
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2020, 01:34 AM   #200
eirik
Muse
 
eirik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 729
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Your hilite is not hyperbolic.

There have been numerous examples of local police coordinating with heavily armed right wing extremist groups.
Sure if you say so. Feel free to elaborate on what you're talking about.

Quote:
The police forces are heavily infiltrated by white supremacists.
If we go with the fashionable definition of nazi as "person with non-far left-politics", you'd be correct too.

If you mean actual nazis or white supremacists, maybe you should provide evidence.
eirik is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:35 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.