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Tags antifa , protest incidents

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Old 9th June 2020, 01:49 AM   #201
eirik
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
KKK leader drives car into crowd of peaceful protestors.
[snipped]
The score still remains:

antifa attacks on suburbs: 0
reactionary counter-protestor violence: >0
I think most of us normies agree with you that actual nazis/white supremacists are worse than Antifa, that's not the issue.

What I don't understand is why you would think that's something to be proud of. It's not exactly a high bar. That's like bragging about how you're not a pedo.

Antifa:

"Not quite as bad as actual nazi terrorists."
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Old 9th June 2020, 02:05 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
A Cop Was Filmed Telling Armed White Men To Avoid Arrest ''So We Don't Look Like We're Playing Favorites''

[snipped]

Latest example of the Oregon police coordinating with armed Proud Boys, a violent right-wing extremist group.

The right wing is armed and the police are sympathetic to their calls for violence. There is no good reason for decent people to remain unarmed. Left leaning folks should familiarize themselves with how to shoot and remain vigilant against the danger of the right wing in this country.
Just read the article.

Police told a group of armed white people to obey the law to avoid arrest, and that they don't want to be perceived as playing favourites.

What absolute racists
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Old 9th June 2020, 02:08 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Because by supporting, if not inciting, violence against people who's opinions you disagree with you have already adopted the same kind of violent extremist mindset that make Neo-Nazi's dangerous in the first place.
Nazism isn't just another opinion.
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Old 9th June 2020, 02:08 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Shouldn’t there be a lot of common ground between Anarchists and Republicans? Aren’t they both in favor of much smaller government?
In reality no. Republicans, "conservatives" and "libertarians" tend to want sufficient government to force their opinions on others.
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Old 9th June 2020, 02:09 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by eirik View Post
You think wrong. It's not that it's unfair, it's factually wrong and laughably ignorant.
No, it's not. Maybe you should read up a bit on Sverigedemokraterna and their history. Or maybe you already did and are attempting to obfuscate.

Originally Posted by eirik View Post
But thanks for the sincere showing of support for outright political violence, and disdain for democracy. It's a useful perspective in this thread, the hard lefts authoritarian power fantasies laid bare.
I'm just operating under the paradox of tolerance.
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Old 9th June 2020, 02:12 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by powerdimer View Post
Just read the article.

Police told a group of armed white people to obey the law to avoid arrest, and that they don't want to be perceived as playing favourites.

What absolute racists
Yes. They are. Do you really not understand why this is a problem?
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Old 9th June 2020, 02:15 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by powerdimer View Post
I think most of us normies agree with you that actual nazis/white supremacists are worse than Antifa, that's not the issue.

What I don't understand is why you would think that's something to be proud of. It's not exactly a high bar. That's like bragging about how you're not a pedo.

Antifa:

"Not quite as bad as actual nazi terrorists."
You know who else is not quite as bad as Nazi terrorists?
Nurses.

If you want to compare apples with handgrenades, then that's your mistake.
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Old 9th June 2020, 02:26 AM   #208
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From my own experiences alone, I notably dislike the noisy Antifa-muppet morons. That's what they are, noisy muppetty morons rarely dressed up for dinner. I fervently disdain the neo-nazi thuggish halfwits. That's what they are, knuckle-draggin thuggish halfwits... unfortunately with the advent of the SD rise, better dressed up for dinner.
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Old 9th June 2020, 02:30 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
You know who else is not quite as bad as Nazi terrorists?
Nurses.

If you want to compare apples with handgrenades, then that's your mistake.
I would be skeptical of a nurse who made a point of how they are better than Nazi terrorists yes.

Normal people set a higher bar you see.
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Old 9th June 2020, 02:45 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by powerdimer View Post
I would be skeptical of a nurse who made a point of how they are better than Nazi terrorists yes.

Normal people set a higher bar you see.
How about you tell Antifa what they should be doing to clear your bar then? I'm sure they care about what you have to say.
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Old 9th June 2020, 02:52 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
If he used violence, threats of violence, harassment or other equivalent means to suppress peoples ability to peacefully and legally hold demonstrations or otherwise publicly propagate their views then I'd condemn him for doing so.
Excellent. He, and they, did all that and more. Looting, arson, destruction of private property...
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Old 9th June 2020, 02:59 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
No, it's not. Maybe you should read up a bit on Sverigedemokraterna and their history. Or maybe you already did and are attempting to obfuscate.
The founder had roots in nazi-organizations yes, I never said otherwise. If you claimed SD were a nazi organisation in the early 90ties, you would have a better case.

Maybe you should argue why you would claim a local SD-politician 30 years later is a Nazi. SD distanced themselves from right wing extremistst in the early 2000 if I'm not mistaken. You doubt their sincerity, ok, but that's a matter of fact. Today SD is a political party represented in Parliament and in local municipalities, with a program of politics that is not nazi, and does not resemble naziism.

If you think 20-30 % of the Swedish population (SDs polling in Sweden the last 5 years) are actual Nazis, that's a position that can't be reasoned with, it's conspiratorial and ignorant.

Quote:
I'm just operating under the paradox of tolerance.
It's not a "paradox" whether to vandalize a politicians house. You should try operating under the law.
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Old 9th June 2020, 03:09 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
How about you tell Antifa what they should be doing to clear your bar then? I'm sure they care about what you have to say.
How about not doing and supporting political violence?

That is a common line to draw between extremists, and other acceptable political factions. It's not "my" bar.
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Old 9th June 2020, 03:27 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Your hilite is not hyperbolic.

There have been numerous examples of local police coordinating with heavily armed right wing extremist groups. The police forces are heavily infiltrated by white supremacists.
In many cases not so much "infiltrated by" but simple are white supremacists.
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Old 9th June 2020, 03:29 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by powerdimer View Post
The founder had roots in nazi-organizations yes, I never said otherwise. If you claimed SD were a nazi organisation in the early 90ties, you would have a better case.

Maybe you should argue why you would claim a local SD-politician 30 years later is a Nazi. SD distanced themselves from right wing extremistst in the early 2000 if I'm not mistaken. You doubt their sincerity, ok, but that's a matter of fact. Today SD is a political party represented in Parliament and in local municipalities, with a program of politics that is not nazi, and does not resemble naziism.

If you think 20-30 % of the Swedish population (SDs polling in Sweden the last 5 years) are actual Nazis, that's a position that can't be reasoned with, it's conspiratorial and ignorant.
Let me tell you why I don't believe that they aren't Nazis:

A political party suddenly goes from being overt neo-nazi to just wanting immigrants out and gays without rights. Meanwhile, members stop dressing in nazi-uniforms and start wearing suits. What happened? If you're stupid, you believe that they are moving on from their nazi roots and becoming a proper party. If you aren't stupid, you realize that they are putting on a charade in order to fool gullible people.

Sverigedemokraterna have never squared their origin with their new public image. There has been no contrition. There's ostensibly a "zero-tolerance policy" against racism, but that only seemingly applies to well published cases and the ones who are kicked out are either worked back in in some capacity or they join one of the neo-nazi organisations that orbit around Sverigedemokraterna. Privately, party members are as racist as ever, according to many media reports and personal experience. They are a nazi-party masquerading as a socially conservative party in order to dupe people. Guess you were duped.

Originally Posted by powerdimer View Post
It's not a "paradox" whether to vandalize a politicians house. You should try operating under the law.
You can read up on the paradox of tolerance in my sig. Or you can remain ignorant.
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Old 9th June 2020, 03:30 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by powerdimer View Post
How about not doing and supporting political violence?

That is a common line to draw between extremists, and other acceptable political factions. It's not "my" bar.
Nope, supporting punching nazis doesn't make them as bad as nazis. Sorry, you're going to have to do better.

Oh, sorry the goal-posts have moved. Now not being as bad as nazis isn't good enough for the argument that they are as bad as nazis to be countered.
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Old 9th June 2020, 04:11 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by powerdimer View Post
I think most of us normies agree with you that actual nazis/white supremacists are worse than Antifa, that's not the issue.

What I don't understand is why you would think that's something to be proud of. It's not exactly a high bar. That's like bragging about how you're not a pedo.

Antifa:

"Not quite as bad as actual nazi terrorists."
It's relevant as there is a concerted effort by the right wing media, including the current president, to gin up fear about leftist terrorists descending on sleepy suburbs.

The right is trying to set the stage so that they can take "preemptive" violent action against their political enemies. Painting the left as a bunch of antifa thugs out to decapitate small business owners and destroy white families.

We've already seen the vanguard of these reactionary, violent forces attacking peaceful protesters under the guise of defeating antifa. Expect to see more car attacks on peaceful marches, shootings, and calls for state violence against peaceful demonstrations.
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Old 9th June 2020, 05:17 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Nope, supporting punching nazis doesn't make them as bad as nazis. Sorry, you're going to have to do better.

Oh, sorry the goal-posts have moved. Now not being as bad as nazis isn't good enough for the argument that they are as bad as nazis to be countered.
I can't remember ever claiming extremist leftists are "as bad as nazis". Put your straw man to rest, we've been over this.

Nazis/right wing extremists are worse in just about every aspect in a comparison with Antifa. That doesn't mean Antifa are not dangerous and harmful and should be called out on their violence.

Again, what i don't see is why anyone would think being better than nazis is an adequate standard for ... anything. It's sounds just as hollow as a sexual harasser bragging that he's not as harmful as a serial-child molester.
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Old 9th June 2020, 05:30 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The right is trying to set the stage so that they can take "preemptive" violent action against their political enemies. Painting the left as a bunch of antifa thugs out to decapitate small business owners and destroy white families.
But can we at least paint antifa-thugs who smash stores and destroys neighbourhoods as antifa thugs?

Quote:
We've already seen the vanguard of these reactionary, violent forces attacking peaceful protesters under the guise of defeating antifa.
Did you expect Antifa to out-violence actual nazis? Huh.

You could always try, but it might not be the best idea. The old saying violence begets violence holds true. Shocking stuff.

That might be why all "normal" legitimate political factions agrees on at least one common principle: Political violence is bad mmkey.
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Old 9th June 2020, 05:31 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by eirik View Post
I can't remember ever claiming extremist leftists are "as bad as nazis". Put your straw man to rest, we've been over this.

Nazis/right wing extremists are worse in just about every aspect in a comparison with Antifa. That doesn't mean Antifa are not dangerous and harmful and should be called out on their violence.

Again, what i don't see is why anyone would think being better than nazis is an adequate standard for ... anything. It's sounds just as hollow as a sexual harasser bragging that he's not as harmful as a serial-child molester.
Fix the nazi-problem and you fix the Antifa "problem". Until the nazis go away, there will always be Antifa.
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Old 9th June 2020, 05:32 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by eirik View Post
But can we at least paint antifa-thugs who smash stores and destroys neighbourhoods as antifa thugs?



Did you expect Antifa to out-violence actual nazis? Huh.

You could always try, but it might not be the best idea. The old saying violence begets violence holds true. Shocking stuff.

That might be why all "normal" legitimate political factions agrees on at least one common principle: Political violence is bad mmkey.
When the nazis stop committing political violence, Antifa will stop committing political violence against them. Pretty simple.

Don't want to get violenced by Antifa, don't be a spread Nazi crap. How's that for an easy bar to clear?
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Old 9th June 2020, 05:34 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by eirik View Post
But can we at least paint antifa-thugs who smash stores and destroys neighbourhoods as antifa thugs?



Did you expect Antifa to out-violence actual nazis? Huh.

You could always try, but it might not be the best idea. The old saying violence begets violence holds true. Shocking stuff.

That might be why all "normal" legitimate political factions agrees on at least one common principle: Political violence is bad mmkey.
This hasn't happened. There is zero evidence that antifa or any other "outside agitators" have been involved in any opportunistic looting or violence.

That's the whole point of this thread. The right wing is trying to smear this spontaneous, grassroots anti-police moment as some antifa operation.

Violent antifa, in the US, is a boogieman. Outside of Portland, which has its own unique history of street skirmishes, violent black-bloc leftists are not a real concern. But somehow we have suburban ******** sitting on rooftops with guns waiting for busloads of antifa beserkers to descend on their town. What really happens is that these heavily armed reactionaries are confronting their own neighbors who are peacefully demonstrating for change. The right is setting up a volatile situation that is guaranteed to lead to murder of peaceful demonstrators.

This is a right wing propaganda campaign to justify increasing violence against lawful, peaceful demonstrators.
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Old 9th June 2020, 05:41 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Fix the nazi-problem and you fix the Antifa "problem". Until the nazis go away, there will always be Antifa.
There will always be political violence, yes. And crime, rape, injustice, racism etc.

What is surprising is the expicit support for political violence on a skeptics forum.
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Old 9th June 2020, 05:42 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by eirik View Post
There will always be political violence, yes. And crime, rape, injustice, racism etc.

What is surprising is the expicit support for political violence on a skeptics forum.
Why? What's unskeptical about seeing a real problem with fascism and fighting against it with everything you've got? Did you confuse skepticism with pacifism?
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Old 9th June 2020, 05:51 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by eirik View Post
How about not doing and supporting political violence?

Is that what you tell white supremacists?
Do they usually get your point and go, 'Oh, there's an idea! You're right, of course! I never thought of that!'
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Old 9th June 2020, 05:51 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
This hasn't happened. There is zero evidence that antifa or any other "outside agitators" have been involved in any opportunistic looting or violence.
I haven't mentioned looting.

No violence from Antifa? Suuure.

https://www.adl.org/resources/backgr...who-are-antifa
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa...otable_actions
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Old 9th June 2020, 05:52 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by eirik View Post
There will always be political violence, yes. And crime, rape, injustice, racism etc.

No, there won't.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th June 2020, 05:53 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by eirik View Post
Neither of those links talk about the ongoing protests.
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Old 9th June 2020, 05:55 AM   #229
SuburbanTurkey
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Originally Posted by eirik View Post
Don't be obtuse. You said "smash stores", which is obviously a reference to the current unrest against police brutality.

is there any evidence that antifa is playing any significant role in the current violence being seen on the ground at these demonstrations? Because all evidence, despite claims from the right, is lacking.

The overwhelming source of the violence on the ground, besides the police, are right wing counter-protesters.
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Old 9th June 2020, 05:59 AM   #230
The Great Zaganza
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The only question is: are you a Nazi?
If not, Antifa is not a danger to you.
It's not complicated.
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Old 9th June 2020, 06:03 AM   #231
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Trump now claiming that the 75 year old man who got his skull cracked by Buffalo PD is an antifa agitator. Propaganda aimed at the dumbest of the dumb in his base.

Quote:
Buffalo protester shoved by Police could be an ANTIFA provocateur. 75 year old Martin Gugino was pushed away after appearing to scan police communications in order to black out the equipment.
@OANN
I watched, he fell harder than was pushed. Was aiming scanner. Could be a set up?
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...33484528214018

Smearing ordinary Americans rising up against police brutality as antifa super soldiers.
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Old 9th June 2020, 06:03 AM   #232
dann
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Originally Posted by eirik View Post

I think that SuburbanTurkey was referring to the ongoing demonstrations in the USA. They are the ones we are talking about, aren't they? We already had the incident in Sweden where the windows of a house belonging to a racist were smashed by an antifa group ten years ago or so, so there is no need to prove that things on that level have happened.
What we would like to see you prove is that antifa were behind the looting after the George Floyd protests.

On a different note, and not directly related to antifas: Are you familiar with these thoughts from a long-deceased anti-fascist?

Quote:
Technological progress frequently results in more unemployment rather than in an easing of the burden of work for all. The profit motive, in conjunction with competition among capitalists, is responsible for an instability in the accumulation and utilization of capital which leads to increasingly severe depressions. Unlimited competition leads to a huge waste of labor, and to that crippling of the social consciousness of individuals which I mentioned before.
This crippling of individuals I consider the worst evil of capitalism. Our whole educational system suffers from this evil. An exaggerated competitive attitude is inculcated into the student, who is trained to worship acquisitive success as a preparation for his future career.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 9th June 2020, 06:07 AM   #233
dann
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Trump now claiming that the 75 year old man who got his skull cracked by Buffalo PD is an antifa agitator.

I think I saw him in one of the looter clips, too. He was jumping out of a storefront window with a 65-inch flatscreen TV!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th June 2020, 06:10 AM   #234
eirik
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I that what you tell white supremacists?
If I ever met one, yes. What else should I do? Punch them?

Question: Is punching only for adult male nazis, or do I get to punch old racist grannys teeth out? Or a 15 year old unfit chubby racist, can I break his arms, hurt him real bad, or is the rule just one punch pr nazi? Nazi women, can I kick them in the head?

And do I only get to hurt them when they are actively "nazi-ing", or can I hurt them at any time, break into their house and smash their head with a bike lock in their sleep?

Are there any consistent rules to this morally good violence?

Quote:
Do they usually get your point and go, 'Oh, there's an idea! You're right, of course! I never thought of that!'
IDK, probably not, since they are violent history-iliterate losers. Very generous of Antifa to join them in this disposition.
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Old 9th June 2020, 06:14 AM   #235
uke2se
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Originally Posted by eirik View Post
If I ever met one, yes. What else should I do? Punch them?

Question: Is punching only for adult male nazis, or do I get to punch old racist grannys teeth out? Or a 15 year old unfit chubby racist, can I break his arms, hurt him real bad, or is the rule just one punch pr nazi? Nazi women, can I kick them in the head?

And do I only get to hurt them when they are actively "nazi-ing", or can I hurt them at any time, break into their house and smash their head with a bike lock in their sleep?

Are there any consistent rules to this morally good violence?
Dunno. You do you, bud.


Originally Posted by eirik View Post
IDK, probably not, since they are violent history-iliterate losers. Very generous of Antifa to join them in this disposition.
Maybe you should go tell them to stop doing their nazi stuff then, because Antifa ain't going away until they do.
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"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
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Old 9th June 2020, 06:17 AM   #236
eirik
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, there won't.
(heavy russian accent) in communist socialist utopia there is NO crime or racism
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Old 9th June 2020, 06:18 AM   #237
dann
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Originally Posted by eirik View Post
If I ever met one, yes. What else should I do? Punch them?

Question: Is punching only for adult male nazis, or do I get to punch old racist grannys teeth out? Or a 15 year old unfit chubby racist, can I break his arms, hurt him real bad, or is the rule just one punch pr nazi? Nazi women, can I kick them in the head?

And do I only get to hurt them when they are actively "nazi-ing", or can I hurt them at any time, break into their house and smash their head with a bike lock in their sleep?

Are there any consistent rules to this morally good violence?

Let's have that discussion when you have met them. Apparently you have never tried to oppose them.

Quote:
IDK, probably not, since they are violent history-iliterate losers. Very generous of Antifa to join them in this disposition.

You really don't get it, do you? Antifa don't join them, they oppose them. You should try to do that some day instead of dreaming of "consistent rules" to "morally good violence". That is another discussion you should be having with white nationalists and police thugs.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th June 2020, 06:23 AM   #238
eirik
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Don't be obtuse. You said "smash stores", which is obviously a reference to the current unrest against police brutality.

is there any evidence that antifa is playing any significant role in the current violence being seen on the ground at these demonstrations? Because all evidence, despite claims from the right, is lacking.

The overwhelming source of the violence on the ground, besides the police, are right wing counter-protesters.
Smashing up windows and stores isn't looting, and yes that was the reference.

Antifa, with it's well documented history of violence and destruction of property, and their specific anti-police politics, have no part in the violence and destruction of property in these riots in which they have had a large presence?

Lol, ok buddy..

As for hard evidence, time will tell, jurys will determine.
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Old 9th June 2020, 06:26 AM   #239
uke2se
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Originally Posted by eirik View Post
Smashing up windows and stores isn't looting, and yes that was the reference.

Antifa, with it's well documented history of violence and destruction of property, and their specific anti-police politics, have no part in the violence and destruction of property in these riots in which they have had a large presence?

Lol, ok buddy..

As for hard evidence, time will tell, jurys will determine.
You know who else smash windows and don't like the police? Criminal window-smashers.

Let's see your evidence, or shut up. You know how this works.
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Old 9th June 2020, 06:27 AM   #240
dann
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Originally Posted by eirik View Post
(heavy russian American accent) in communist socialist utopia there is NO crime or the land of the free, the police deals with poverty, so racism is a given

FTFY
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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