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Old 5th June 2020, 03:29 PM   #1
Brainster
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So What Do We Do with the Police?

I see a whole lot of protesting, but let's get to some actual suggestions:

1. Do away with police unions. The clown heading up the union in Minneapolis might have helped this cause along quite a bit. One of the problems with trying to reform the police is that the unions have quite a bit of political clout:

Quote:
Take the case of Cecilia Iglesias. As I write this, she’s still a city councilmember in Santa Ana, California, a mostly Latino city of 333,000 in the heart of Orange County. (Full disclosure: Iglesias and I work together at California Policy Center.)

By the time you read this, Iglesias will officially be removed from office, a victim of the Santa Ana Police Officers Association’s $500,000 recall campaign against her.

Iglesias’s crime: She tried to reform her city’s police department.
Think about that for a second. Santa Ana's police union was able to raise $500,000 to vote out a city councilmember. How were they able to raise that much dough?

Quote:
In February 2019, Iglesias, a self-declared conservative, voted against the police union’s demand for a pay hike. “My reason was simple: we can’t pay what we don’t have,” she recently wrote. “Looking at the city’s already high taxes and massive public debt (what the watchdog group Truth in Accounting called ‘a sinkhole’ and among the worst in California), I could do nothing else.” Echoing President Dwight D. Eisenhower’s Farewell Address, she has openly wondered how much longer the city could underfund essential services in order to pay its government employees — how long before it destroyed from within the public safety it was paying for with higher police salaries. She was outvoted, and the police got their raise.
Gee, can't imagine any other city councilmembers voting against pay raises for the cops anytime soon.

Quote:
A few months later, in October 2019, Iglesias called for the creation of a police-oversight commission. Santa Ana’s police have a difficult job, operating as they do in a dense, relatively poor city. But even grading for that challenge, the police have failed too often. Iglesias figured civilian oversight might eliminate bad cops and offer good ones the hope of reform.
IMHO, you have to get rid of the unions first and that is going to be insanely difficult unless the current national movement pushes in that direction. Citizen Review Boards are fine, but if they don't have real power to fire and/or recommend charges be filed against officers then they are useless.

2. Getting rid of the police. Now an editor at Vice was forced to apologize for saying this was a poorly thought-out idea, so I won't make that mistake. In fact, it is an idea that shows no sign of having been thought-out at all.

Other ideas?
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Old 5th June 2020, 03:43 PM   #2
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Get rid of the Qualified Immunity that means that when cops go over the line, the city pays, NOT that cop.

And make all settlements a matter of public knowledge. No back room pay-outs that keep the bad cop's record secret.

But can you do all that and still find people to do the often violent job of cop? Perhaps we need merely to do away with the concept of "justifiable violence" and make "necessary" the key word.

But that sounds easy, but let me ask: Have YOU ever experienced your own "Flight or Fight" situation? If not, can YOU stop in the middle of an orgasm?
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Old 5th June 2020, 03:52 PM   #3
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I heard an interview with a spokesman for a group working against police brutality with focus on police brutality against black people. He said that research showed that rules and accountability worked while things like empathy training, neighborhood policing etc didn't. Increasing the number of black officers worked, but only if the amount of black officers reached a critical limit (think it was around 30%).

Basically, what needs to be done is to introduce standardized rules that if broken lead to real consequences (think, tried and convicted rather than suspended with pay). Once that is done, the police needs to work on regaining the trust of the public, a process that will take time.

The cops need a union the same as everyone else. However, the union they have now seems way too reactionary, so it should be disbanded and reformed.
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Old 5th June 2020, 04:06 PM   #4
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Change the psychology of the police.

the 'policing by consent' framework seems to work better than the 'civilians are the enemy' framework, easier said than done though.
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Old 5th June 2020, 04:13 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Change the psychology of the police.

the 'policing by consent' framework seems to work better than the 'civilians are the enemy' framework, easier said than done though.
That's the thing. You can't change the pshyche of the entire police force without replacing all the people. Let's call that option A.

Option B would be to introduce rules and stick by those rules.
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Old 5th June 2020, 04:15 PM   #6
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I think Casebro is on the track here at least. We need police, and they need to have some discretionary power, but we also need, I think, to change the culture of policing, to lose the idea that they are a military force arrayed against evil.

I once long ago (which means I can't now remember a source) saw what I thought a pretty good maxim, that you know you're in a police state when the police see their job, not as protecting the people, but protecting the state from them. And that, unfortunately, is what we're seeing more and more of.

I think it's going to be a rough time any way one tries to solve it. People who have good reason not to trust the police are going to continue to behave in ways the police don't like, including ways that are dangerous. But responding to that discontent by cracking down more and doing more of the very thing they're hated for will never fix the problem.

I have seen a few examples of police making an effort to change the relationship to the public in a positive way. Lincoln, Nebraska, Flint, Michigan, and a few other places. I think it can be done, but it's going to take a change in the way police see their own role, and also a change in the way police are insulated against the consequence of their actions.

I would even go so far as to say that we still need some kind of qualified immunity, so that it's not feasible for every person who perceives the police as having offended them to sue. There will be mistaken arrests, and occasional excesses, and though they always ought to be taken seriously and minimized, I don't think it's realistic to demand perfection in the difficult job. But we need to demand that a bit more effort is made in that direction.

It's going to be a slow road, I think. One of the notable things I see over and over in stories about police brutality, error, and excess is the amost universal inability of anyone to admit error and apologize. I know we're heavily into the era of doubling-down on even the most outrageous stupidity and lies, and never giving an inch, but I think it might do many police a favor if they could every once in a while get off their high horse and say "oops, sorry."

I recall long ago I knew a doctor and psychologist who had once met, as a state trooper, the man who later became Connecticut's chief of police. He remarked that he's the only cop he'd met who joined the force for a healthy reason. The man (Cleveland Fuessenich) said he'd become a trooper because he liked to drive fast and liked the snappy uniform. too many policemen, my old friend thought, join because they are righteous, and see themselves as the hammer of god against evil. They stop being ordinary human beings.

We have to remember that Batman is fiction. Most of us lack the forbearance and moral strength to avoid excess. As others have said, in some ways righteoudness is more to be feared than sin, because it's not subject to the constraints of conscience.
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Old 5th June 2020, 04:28 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I see a whole lot of protesting, but let's get to some actual suggestions:

1. Do away with police unions. The clown heading up the union in Minneapolis might have helped this cause along quite a bit. One of the problems with trying to reform the police is that the unions have quite a bit of political clout:



Think about that for a second. Santa Ana's police union was able to raise $500,000 to vote out a city councilmember. How were they able to raise that much dough?



Gee, can't imagine any other city councilmembers voting against pay raises for the cops anytime soon.



IMHO, you have to get rid of the unions first and that is going to be insanely difficult unless the current national movement pushes in that direction. Citizen Review Boards are fine, but if they don't have real power to fire and/or recommend charges be filed against officers then they are useless.

2. Getting rid of the police. Now an editor at Vice was forced to apologize for saying this was a poorly thought-out idea, so I won't make that mistake. In fact, it is an idea that shows no sign of having been thought-out at all.

Other ideas?
How many of Santa Ana's police officers actually live in that community? If it's like Minneapolis, not too many. If you dislike the community so much that you wouldn't want to live there, you probably shouldn't be policing it.

And when a cop gets fired for misbehavior, that should follow him. Some departments seem to actively recruit vicious thugs from elsewhere. (Citation needed.)

Some attention needs to be paid to the prosecutors and courts as well.
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Old 5th June 2020, 04:46 PM   #8
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1/ Create a national registry of police officers, as there are for doctors, nurses, EMTS, lawyers, etc., and make all major disciplinary actions matters of public record, so cops fired from one department can't dance over to the next county.

2/ Consolidate small police departments into larger, better-funded, better-managed departments, maybe all answering to the state police. There are something like 18,000 separate police departments in the U.S., who do their own hiring, training and supervision. Law enforcement should be more broadly standardized. It would also be easier for cops to transfer to other departments without losing seniority, pension credit etc., making it easier for good departments to attract good cops.

3/ New hires should be required to live in their jurisdictions. Depending on local real estate markets, they might be allowed to move elsewhere, but only with permission and only after at least five years of service. They need to be part of the communities they serve.
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Old 5th June 2020, 05:08 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
How many of Santa Ana's police officers actually live in that community? If it's like Minneapolis, not too many. If you dislike the community so much that you wouldn't want to live there, you probably shouldn't be policing it.
Not entirely opposed but it is quite possible that some cops can't afford to live in the city where they work--NYC, and SF are probably pretty good examples of a place where it would be difficult for a rookie patrolman to live on his salary.

Quote:
And when a cop gets fired for misbehavior, that should follow him. Some departments seem to actively recruit vicious thugs from elsewhere. (Citation needed.)
Seems a bit short-sighted; how much do you think Floyd's death is going to cost the city of Minneapolis, just in terms of lawsuits from the family, forget the millions in property damage? But I agree a national database of bad apples is a good idea.
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Old 5th June 2020, 05:38 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Not entirely opposed but it is quite possible that some cops can't afford to live in the city where they work--NYC, and SF are probably pretty good examples of a place where it would be difficult for a rookie patrolman to live on his salary.
.....
Actually NYC cops are required to live in the city or in a few specified close-in suburbs. NY cops probably don't buy condos on the Upper East Side, but affordable housing is available.
https://www.villagevoice.com/2016/10...officers-live/

San Francisco might be a special case, but I wouldn't have a problem with subsidies specifically intended to pay for housing. But most cities aren't like San Francisco.
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Old 5th June 2020, 06:10 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
1/ Create a national registry of police officers, as there are for doctors, nurses, EMTS, lawyers, etc., and make all major disciplinary actions matters of public record, so cops fired from one department can't dance over to the next county.

2/ Consolidate small police departments into larger, better-funded, better-managed departments, maybe all answering to the state police. There are something like 18,000 separate police departments in the U.S., who do their own hiring, training and supervision. Law enforcement should be more broadly standardized. It would also be easier for cops to transfer to other departments without losing seniority, pension credit etc., making it easier for good departments to attract good cops.

3/ New hires should be required to live in their jurisdictions. Depending on local real estate markets, they might be allowed to move elsewhere, but only with permission and only after at least five years of service. They need to be part of the communities they serve.
I like having the police live in the Municipalities in which they serve, but making them live in the actual jurisdictions they patrol is not a good idea.
You would have them be targets in their own homes.
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Old 5th June 2020, 06:14 PM   #12
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As a former cop - the following spring immediately to mind:

Make rookie cops go unarmed for the first two years of duty. The firearm has to stop being the first response to any perceived threat.
Failing that - police officers should be made to work alone (with reasonable back-up available) as much as possible. That way they will learn communication and de-escalation skills. Getting tuned up by an upset member of the public is a great way to learn that you are not a god and that nobody appreciates getting talked to like a second class citizen just because some idiot taught you "Command Authority" in training.

Stop teaching cops that they have a dangerous job. It isn't and we must stop the self glorification that such an ethos creates.

Any cop that is heard using the term "civilian" should be immediately fired. That is a military term and a military mindset is the exact wrong attitude to have.

SWAT or like units should be comprised of non police personnel. They should also be removed from the control of local police and only be used as a last resort when all other options have been carefully considered. Far too many incidents involving the "kill or be killed" mindset of these units results in deaths of innocent people.

A national standard for police training needs to be developed and enforced. All former military people should be barred from any police training facility. Police training must be devoid of all military mindsets. You are police officer - not a soldier. Your goals and how you achieve them are different.

Make it a very serious offence to not report a felony by a fellow cop.

Police unions are a double edged sword. Police deserve good pay and decent benefits (like anybody else)- but unions should not be a barrier that interferes with proper investigations of alleged malfeasance. Union funding of good defence lawyers is fair as long as the money is drawn from union dues only.
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Old 5th June 2020, 06:58 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
can YOU stop in the middle of an orgasm?
My god. That is a ****** up way of looking at a violent issue.
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Old 5th June 2020, 07:05 PM   #14
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I've never been in a position to join a union. I always figured employment should be a give-and-take, a mutually beneficial partnership if you will.

Yes, if it wasn't for unions the pay would still be $1/day. But I think the employment relations in the whole country would be better if unions thought of themselves a suppliers of a component. Supplying better people should be the by-word. It should be the unions that fire bad apples. Shop stewards know who those are. "Sorry, you aren't the kind we want to be an example of the rest of us. You makes us look bad. " I bet it's even in the union rules?
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Old 5th June 2020, 07:11 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Varanid View Post
My god. That is a ****** up way of looking at a violent issue.
Sorry, I needed an emotional situation for comparison. What, you didn't see Flight or Fight as comparable ?

Ever heard of the Viking Berserkers? In battle they would hack and chop, until only two were left. Then even if on the same side, they might hack and chop at each other. There just is no stopping people in the Berserk stage. But I think 3 on 1 could have done it in less then 9 minutes.
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Old 5th June 2020, 07:20 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
You can't change the pshyche of the entire police force without replacing all the people.
Not all. Just... whatever amount it takes to get rid of the bad ones and leave the good ones. Every jurisdiction has some kind of police complaint process, so it's known, at least locally, which ones get the most complaints, and . Yes, there will be a few bad ones with inordinately few complaints and some good ones with inordinately many (and I just know I'd be one of the latter if I were a cop), but in general, just dropping a substantial fraction of them by that criterion alone would immediately improve things a lot. Another criterion you could use for a similar effect, instead of complaints from the public, would be numbers of prosecutions dismissed based on cops having broken the rules. Drop the ones with the highest numbers there, and what's left is the ones who follow rules best.

I see nothing wrong with cutting down their number significantly overall. There are already more than we really need. Even if the level we currently have is about right for the level of "crime" we currently have, that includes all of the labor hours wasted on non-violent drug "crimes". Knock that off, free the non-violent drug "criminals", and you've instantly reduced the work load by a certain percentage. Then firing the same percentage of the worst cops doesn't even need to have any effect on the ratio of cops to work load at all.
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Old 5th June 2020, 07:24 PM   #17
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In addition to a mass firing, I have nothing else to suggest because I can't claim to know the subject well enough to address more subtle details. But there are police forces that are run by people who do (primarily in other countries), so my next step would simply be to get as many of them as possible to consult on how our reforms should go.
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Old 5th June 2020, 07:33 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I like having the police live in the Municipalities in which they serve, but making them live in the actual jurisdictions they patrol is not a good idea.
.....
What's the distinction? If they live in the city of Chicago, their jurisdiction is the city of Chicago. Do you mean something like patrol area? In NYC cops can't live in the precinct where they work (I suspect in practice that means they decide where they want to live, then get assigned to work somewhere else).
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Old 5th June 2020, 07:55 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I think Casebro is on the track here at least. We need police, and they need to have some discretionary power, but we also need, I think, to change the culture of policing, to lose the idea that they are a military force arrayed against evil.

I once long ago (which means I can't now remember a source) saw what I thought a pretty good maxim, that you know you're in a police state when the police see their job, not as protecting the people, but protecting the state from them. And that, unfortunately, is what we're seeing more and more of.

I think it's going to be a rough time any way one tries to solve it. People who have good reason not to trust the police are going to continue to behave in ways the police don't like, including ways that are dangerous. But responding to that discontent by cracking down more and doing more of the very thing they're hated for will never fix the problem.

I have seen a few examples of police making an effort to change the relationship to the public in a positive way. Lincoln, Nebraska, Flint, Michigan, and a few other places. I think it can be done, but it's going to take a change in the way police see their own role, and also a change in the way police are insulated against the consequence of their actions.

I would even go so far as to say that we still need some kind of qualified immunity, so that it's not feasible for every person who perceives the police as having offended them to sue. There will be mistaken arrests, and occasional excesses, and though they always ought to be taken seriously and minimized, I don't think it's realistic to demand perfection in the difficult job. But we need to demand that a bit more effort is made in that direction.

It's going to be a slow road, I think. One of the notable things I see over and over in stories about police brutality, error, and excess is the amost universal inability of anyone to admit error and apologize. I know we're heavily into the era of doubling-down on even the most outrageous stupidity and lies, and never giving an inch, but I think it might do many police a favor if they could every once in a while get off their high horse and say "oops, sorry."

I recall long ago I knew a doctor and psychologist who had once met, as a state trooper, the man who later became Connecticut's chief of police. He remarked that he's the only cop he'd met who joined the force for a healthy reason. The man (Cleveland Fuessenich) said he'd become a trooper because he liked to drive fast and liked the snappy uniform. too many policemen, my old friend thought, join because they are righteous, and see themselves as the hammer of god against evil. They stop being ordinary human beings.

We have to remember that Batman is fiction. Most of us lack the forbearance and moral strength to avoid excess. As others have said, in some ways righteoudness is more to be feared than sin, because it's not subject to the constraints of conscience.
This is a double edged sword, though. Most of us should also not have police powers; behold the prudent limitations on citizen's arrest.

I disagree that qualified immunity is necessary. Yes, police are human and will make mistakes. and those mistakes will harm the people they were entrusted to protect, so justice needs to come down all the harder, and more swiftly, and not be softballed. "Nobody's perfect" doesn't go over big at the innocent victim's eulogy (not that you are saying that). It relies on degree; the kind of abuses we are witnessing in the protests should be landing these police in prison, and the cops enabling/protecting/turning a blind eye as accomplices to their felonies.There is no gray area with a lot of the abuses we have seen. It is pure sadistic criminality hiding behind a badge. Many of them need to be behind bars.
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Old 5th June 2020, 08:04 PM   #20
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So What Do We Do with the Police?

**** them. NWA
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Old 5th June 2020, 08:26 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
**** them. NWA
Hey hey hey...POCWA. It's not the freaking '80s anymore.
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Old 5th June 2020, 08:29 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
This is a double edged sword, though. Most of us should also not have police powers; behold the prudent limitations on citizen's arrest.

I disagree that qualified immunity is necessary. Yes, police are human and will make mistakes. and those mistakes will harm the people they were entrusted to protect, so justice needs to come down all the harder, and more swiftly, and not be softballed. "Nobody's perfect" doesn't go over big at the innocent victim's eulogy (not that you are saying that). It relies on degree; the kind of abuses we are witnessing in the protests should be landing these police in prison, and the cops enabling/protecting/turning a blind eye as accomplices to their felonies.There is no gray area with a lot of the abuses we have seen. It is pure sadistic criminality hiding behind a badge. Many of them need to be behind bars.
Agree on the first, and perhaps I wasn't clear. We don't have police powers and shouldn't. I think police need some, but need also to be taught and reminded that those powers are a regulated condition of their employment, and not a moral authority.

I could be swayed on qualified immunity, but I think the idea itself, if it weren't abused, has some merit. However, you may be right that the abuse is so widespread and automatic that it can't work. At the very least the definition of what is qualified needs to change.
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Old 5th June 2020, 08:41 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Agree on the first, and perhaps I wasn't clear. We don't have police powers and shouldn't. I think police need some, but need also to be taught and reminded that those powers are a regulated condition of their employment, and not a moral authority.

I could be swayed on qualified immunity, but I think the idea itself, if it weren't abused, has some merit. However, you may be right that the abuse is so widespread and automatic that it can't work. At the very least the definition of what is qualified needs to change.
Yeah. Lattitude for an honest mistake by a peacekeeper acting in good faith is fair, although it might not seem so to whoever got the short end.

Maybe additional punitive measures for those who are not found to be acting in good faith, kind of a betrayal-of-public-trust additional penalty?
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Old 5th June 2020, 09:06 PM   #24
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Major idea: start proactively prosecuting cops when unarmed suspects and members of the public are killed. If a person dies while restrained or in custody, the officers whose actions or inactions led to that death get prosecuted. If an unarmed suspect is shot because an officer "thought he might be reaching for a weapon", prosecute. Make whatever new laws need to be made to turn these things into convictable offenses, and eliminate "qualified immunity" as a defense.

Make "resisting arrest" available as an ancillary charge only; nobody can be arrested simply for "resisting arrest". If there is no arrestable principal offense, it can't be used; if the principal charge is dropped, so is the resisting charge, period. Make whatever changes are necessary to ensure that "assaulting an officer" isn't simply substituted for "resisting arrest" and abused in the same manner for cases where there wasn't an obvious, willful, directed attack against a cop.
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Old 5th June 2020, 09:45 PM   #25
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Pilots have a pretty high standard for doing their jobs. Not sure why we don't hold cops to a high enough standard to where they don't abuse the rights of the people they are supposed to "protect and serve."
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Old 5th June 2020, 10:04 PM   #26
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There must be incentives for the police to police themselves.

One idea was to make legal insurance premiums part of a Department's budget, or even the cops pay.
That way, "loose canons" would just become too expensive to keep employed.
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Old 5th June 2020, 10:42 PM   #27
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Ensure that police have experience dealing with non-verbal people. Working knowledge of appropriate reaction times from surprised parties. And the ability to distinguish between won't comply and can't comply.
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Old 5th June 2020, 10:46 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
1/ Create a national registry of police officers, as there are for doctors, nurses, EMTS, lawyers, etc., and make all major disciplinary actions matters of public record, so cops fired from one department can't dance over to the next county.

2/ Consolidate small police departments into larger, better-funded, better-managed departments, maybe all answering to the state police. There are something like 18,000 separate police departments in the U.S., who do their own hiring, training and supervision. Law enforcement should be more broadly standardized. It would also be easier for cops to transfer to other departments without losing seniority, pension credit etc., making it easier for good departments to attract good cops.

3/ New hires should be required to live in their jurisdictions. Depending on local real estate markets, they might be allowed to move elsewhere, but only with permission and only after at least five years of service. They need to be part of the communities they serve.
Adding to the above excellent ideas:

4/ Hire better quality police, require an education beyond high school.

5/ Train police how to deescalate with annual or more frequent reviews and assessments as to how each officer is doing.

6/ Train police that contempt of cop is wrong and won't be tolerated, then don't tolerate it.

7/ Union bargaining power should not include the ability to keep bad cops on the job. You can keep unions without that particular function.
7.1/ don't tolerate cops lying to protect each other. That is a culture that needs to end.
8/ Require body cams be turned on and discipline cops who claim they forgot, or don't give them the option to turn the cams off. There can be a board that decides what needs to be blurred out for privacy of the persons being recorded.

9/ Let cops know, there is no place they are safe from being recorded and they better change now before they are caught because they will be fired and charged criminally if indicated. They can't go on kicking and beating people because they lose their tempers. Remind them often they could be going to jail for this kind of behavior, the times have changed.

10/ Include training how to control people without beating and kicking them.

11/ (Added watching the Canadian murder by a cop doing a "wellness check") Don't tolerate cops killing mentally ill people they have been called to assist with.
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Old 5th June 2020, 10:50 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I like having the police live in the Municipalities in which they serve, but making them live in the actual jurisdictions they patrol is not a good idea.
You would have them be targets in their own homes.
Shows where your head is at. The idea is these guys are your neighbors so no one wants to "target them".
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Old 5th June 2020, 10:52 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
As a former cop - the following spring immediately to mind:

Make rookie cops go unarmed for the first two years of duty. The firearm has to stop being the first response to any perceived threat.
Failing that - police officers should be made to work alone (with reasonable back-up available) as much as possible. That way they will learn communication and de-escalation skills. Getting tuned up by an upset member of the public is a great way to learn that you are not a god and that nobody appreciates getting talked to like a second class citizen just because some idiot taught you "Command Authority" in training.

Stop teaching cops that they have a dangerous job. It isn't and we must stop the self glorification that such an ethos creates.

Any cop that is heard using the term "civilian" should be immediately fired. That is a military term and a military mindset is the exact wrong attitude to have.

SWAT or like units should be comprised of non police personnel. They should also be removed from the control of local police and only be used as a last resort when all other options have been carefully considered. Far too many incidents involving the "kill or be killed" mindset of these units results in deaths of innocent people.

A national standard for police training needs to be developed and enforced. All former military people should be barred from any police training facility. Police training must be devoid of all military mindsets. You are police officer - not a soldier. Your goals and how you achieve them are different.

Make it a very serious offence to not report a felony by a fellow cop.

Police unions are a double edged sword. Police deserve good pay and decent benefits (like anybody else)- but unions should not be a barrier that interferes with proper investigations of alleged malfeasance. Union funding of good defence lawyers is fair as long as the money is drawn from union dues only.
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.

Space Force.
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Old 5th June 2020, 10:57 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Major idea: start proactively prosecuting cops when unarmed suspects and members of the public are killed. If a person dies while restrained or in custody, the officers whose actions or inactions led to that death get prosecuted. If an unarmed suspect is shot because an officer "thought he might be reaching for a weapon", prosecute. Make whatever new laws need to be made to turn these things into convictable offenses, and eliminate "qualified immunity" as a defense.
A bit harsh but may be needed. Needs a way to sort out the true mistake from negligence or worse.

Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Make "resisting arrest" available as an ancillary charge only; nobody can be arrested simply for "resisting arrest". If there is no arrestable principal offense, it can't be used; if the principal charge is dropped, so is the resisting charge, period. Make whatever changes are necessary to ensure that "assaulting an officer" isn't simply substituted for "resisting arrest" and abused in the same manner for cases where there wasn't an obvious, willful, directed attack against a cop.
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.
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Old 5th June 2020, 11:00 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
Ensure that police have experience dealing with non-verbal people. Working knowledge of appropriate reaction times from surprised parties. And the ability to distinguish between won't comply and can't comply.
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.
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Old 5th June 2020, 11:10 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post

2/ Consolidate small police departments into larger, better-funded, better-managed departments, maybe all answering to the state police. There are something like 18,000 separate police departments in the U.S., who do their own hiring, training and supervision. Law enforcement should be more broadly standardized. It would also be easier for cops to transfer to other departments without losing seniority, pension credit etc., making it easier for good departments to attract good cops.
I don’t know how many times I’ve said this over the years. One force per state would solve most of the problems with ill disciplined and poorly trained and resourced police. My state of Victoria has a population of about 6.5 million and a police force of 22,000. This is a large force by world standards and police behaviour is not perfect, but public approval is strong.

What are the barriers to abolishing or amalgamating the thousands of US police forces? I don’t think it’s constitutional. Is it just inertia?
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Old 5th June 2020, 11:12 PM   #34
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I was looking up figures the other day. American police killed over a thousand people last year. UK police killed three. The US has about five times as many people.

In casual discussions with police officers, they always emphasize that their training tells them to be vigilant 100% of the time, or they might not go home to their families. Look away for a split second, and a suspect will pull a weapon and end you.

This is a country with widespread gun ownership. You want police to be less militarized and violent? Strictly regulate firearms, especially handguns.
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Old 5th June 2020, 11:39 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
I was looking up figures the other day. American police killed over a thousand people last year. UK police killed three. The US has about five times as many people.

In casual discussions with police officers, they always emphasize that their training tells them to be vigilant 100% of the time, or they might not go home to their families. Look away for a split second, and a suspect will pull a weapon and end you.

This is a country with widespread gun ownership. You want police to be less militarized and violent? Strictly regulate firearms, especially handguns.
It’s a price US citizens, unlike others, are not prepared to pay.
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Old 6th June 2020, 01:20 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
It’s a price US citizens, unlike others, are not prepared to pay.
You're right right now, but...

Donald Trump became president, so anything's possible. In the fifties, most Americans supported a ban on handguns, and understood the Second Amendment in different terms. Progress will probably take at least several generations.
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Old 6th June 2020, 01:26 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
I was looking up figures the other day. American police killed over a thousand people last year. UK police killed three. The US has about five times as many people.

In casual discussions with police officers, they always emphasize that their training tells them to be vigilant 100% of the time, or they might not go home to their families. Look away for a split second, and a suspect will pull a weapon and end you.

This is a country with widespread gun ownership. You want police to be less militarized and violent? Strictly regulate firearms, especially handguns.
The USA will never solve its gun problem, there are too many guns already in the wrong hands. So, the USA will never be able to solve its policing problem because cops will always have to presume they are about to be shot.
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Old 6th June 2020, 01:55 AM   #38
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Stephen Colbert interviews Rep. Karen Bass, Chairwoman of the Congressional Black Caucus, about a police reform bill they will introduce in both the House and Senate on Monday.
Some of the things she talks about are starting a police database, banning choke holds, and banning no knock warrents
Interview starts at 2 minutes in.
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Old 6th June 2020, 02:05 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
I was looking up figures the other day. American police killed over a thousand people last year. UK police killed three. The US has about five times as many people.
To be accurate, the police in the UK shot three people to death (and one of those was a terrorist in the middle of attacking people in the street). There are other deaths that may have been caused by the police (but even then, the total numbers are well below the US rates for shooting alone https://www.statista.com/statistics/...and-and-wales/ ).

Nevertheless, and despite the failings of some officers, the police in the UK do seem a lot better trained and organised (the sheer number of separate police forces in the USA seems a recipe for, at best, wide variation in standards, not to mention the whole idea of electing sheriffs etc.), and have a policy of policing by consent, following the principles laid down by Robert Peel.

I know more than half a dozen people who are or were in the police, and all of them are people I would trust.
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Old 6th June 2020, 02:07 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The USA will never solve its gun problem, there are too many guns already in the wrong hands. So, the USA will never be able to solve its policing problem because cops will always have to presume they are about to be shot.
Police/citizen interactions in the US are estimated at about 2 million per day. A total of 106 police officers were killed in 2017. Of those 106 fatalities - 44 were from gunshot wounds. That means that 730,000,000 interactions resulted in fatal gunfire that killed 44 cops. Or, 1 out of every 16,500,000 cop/citizen interactions results in the death of a cop by gunfire.
Anybody that thinks those numbers equate a situation where cops have to presume that they are about to be shot during each citizen interaction is falling for the hype.
That is why being a police officer in the US does not even make it into the top ten most dangerous jobs.
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