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Old 8th June 2020, 11:58 PM   #121
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Perhaps not compare fairy tales to real life may be helpful. Berserkers are fictional, and even if you want to use such comparisons perhaps check your mythological critters, berserkers couldn’t be harmed by blades...
They're only mostly fictional. There is plenty of documentary evidence from stelae that warriors did battle wearing bear skins. And it's clear that they featured heavily in folklore, which as we know frequently draws inspiration from real life.

Pretty much all of the rest of what people think they know about the Berserkr is mythology, though. Which is slightly different from outright fiction.
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Old 9th June 2020, 12:18 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
They're only mostly fictional. There is plenty of documentary evidence from stelae that warriors did battle wearing bear skins. And it's clear that they featured heavily in folklore, which as we know frequently draws inspiration from real life.

Pretty much all of the rest of what people think they know about the Berserkr is mythology, though. Which is slightly different from outright fiction.
Shock troops straight out of the scandinavian woodlands. Doesn't have the same ring to it. :
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Old 9th June 2020, 02:03 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What do you mean by innocent? Because guilty people who are not threatening shouldn't be killed either.
An Innocent Person would be one that was not an active threat directly to the Officer or another person at the time of the shooting.
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Old 9th June 2020, 03:28 AM   #124
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I watched First Blood again for the first time in 20 years. I think it has a useful analogy. Too many join the police imagining they are Rambo, when in fact they are the useless police officers who are only tough when they are together in their gang.
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Old 9th June 2020, 04:49 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Well this would require getting the actual statistics, but from all the research I have been able to do, it looks as if there is about one innocent person killed about once a month to two months. Let's aim high and say two a month, which doesn't seem to gel with the reports, and so we have 24 innocents killed by cops in a year, at the same time we have about 60 cops murdered, so the ratio is a little over 2 cops per innocent person, though in reality it's more likely to be about 4 cops to every innocent person.

ETA: And though saying this, as I noted above, killings on both sides isn't the right statistic we should be looking at. We should be looking at "Cops attacked in a life threatening way" vs "Innocent People Injured by Cops"
But of course this is also totally the wrong way to look at it as well. First you are ignoring all the die in police custody that get written off as something else because the police have a tight relationship with the coroner. And you need to look at such things as they relate to specific tactics and policies not gross death totals. How many police lives are saved vs innocents killed by no knock warrants for example?
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Old 9th June 2020, 04:57 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
An Innocent Person would be one that was not an active threat directly to the Officer or another person at the time of the shooting.
I would also like to not shoot threatening ones that provide time for deescalation.
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Old 9th June 2020, 05:08 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I would also like to not shoot threatening ones that provide time for deescalation.
Good luck with deescalation on the guy holding your head underwater, stabbing his girlfriend multiple times, or shooting your cruiser full of holes.
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Old 9th June 2020, 05:37 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Good luck with deescalation on the guy holding your head underwater, stabbing his girlfriend multiple times, or shooting your cruiser full of holes.
Or with a 12 year old playing in the park with a toy gun. You have to shoot first.

Or how about a report of a black man with a gun in Colorado where open carry and such is nice and legal. So you pull guns on him and his 3 kids because why not, blacks should know that the second amendment does not apply to them after all. He was of course unarmed.
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Old 9th June 2020, 06:51 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Good luck with deescalation on the guy holding your head underwater, stabbing his girlfriend multiple times, or shooting your cruiser full of holes.
To be fair, I think when one says "provide time," that excludes those who do not.
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Old 9th June 2020, 08:17 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Well this would require getting the actual statistics, but from all the research I have been able to do, it looks as if there is about one innocent person killed about once a month to two months.
....


U.S. cops kill 1,000 people every year. On what basis could you claim that only one or two per month are unjustified? And that's what matters, not whether he is "innocent" of whatever the cops think he might have done.
https://news.northeastern.edu/2020/0...e-preventable/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/inves...340_story.html

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Old 9th June 2020, 10:06 AM   #131
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Black people should police themselves. Create a neighborhood watch organization called "The Black Lions" that will defend black folks against racist oppression by The White Man. Funded by voluntarily taxes from local business and criminals that otherwise would be without protection, they would also meet out the righteous black mans justice against all that are accused and judged guilty. Judgement is death!
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Old 9th June 2020, 11:06 AM   #132
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This is a thing I daydream about, bit I'll admit I don't have all the answers.

Yesterday evening while I was walking the dog after dinner, there were men on go-carts driving around the park - on the walking paths, over the grass, and over the little footbridges that cross the stream. Loud and stinking. Also a motorcycle doing the same. That happens often, it tears up the grass, sometimes breaks the sprinklers. Frightens the dog. It's not a catastrophically bad thing, but it damages the park, which is why it is prohibited. Yet they do it anyway, they seem to understand that other users of the park would rather they not do that, but they don't care. I refer to them as suburban libertarians - no government is going to tell them they can't turn the park into a race course. And yet, particularly in light if current events, it seems a silly thing to call the police about.

We also get a lot of road racing on the weekends. When the weather is nice, you close the windows anyway because the cars have been modded to make them even louder, they'll wake you out of a sound sleep at 3:00 am from four or five blocks away. If the police come at all, the racers just leave and find another spot for a week or two, then come back. They seem to know that the neighborhood does not like screaming loud engines at 3:00, but they don't care.

So you think: Yes, many of the police are much too aggressive and violent, and the culture of policing in America is such that the other cops let them get away with it. But I balance that against the fact that Americans just don't seem to self-regulate very well. Without some LE response, the parks get destroyed, the cars race all night. Little things, but little things that affect the quality of life

Its the kind of thing that requires a sustained, uniform push from society. Stop tolerating aggression and violence from the police. Reform mental heath care, substance abuse and addiction treatment, reform prisons. Yet still get police to deal with the little things. There's that moderate spot between pseudo-military police and police that just ignore anything not an obvious felony. That's where we need to get policing to operate.

I don't think our society is organized or coherent enough to pull it off. We'll get some reform out of this current push, just as there was some reform after Ferguson. But it won't but all that much, and much of it won't last.

We need moderation in policing, and America does not do moderation very well at all.
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Old 9th June 2020, 11:14 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
But I balance that against the fact that Americans just don't seem to self-regulate very well. Without some LE response, the parks get destroyed, the cars race all night. Little things, but little things that affect the quality of life
I'll agree that a big part of the issue is that there aren't a lot of avenues for... I guess "mediation" is the closest word I can use... between citizens.

"If didn't call the police, then who would they call exactly?" is a valid question to put on the table in some circumstances (not the "Xing while black" ones obviously) even if we agree that calling the police was not warranted.

And yes a lot of Americas have that "Well I can and should do everything that isn't literally against the law" mentality to deal with.
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Old 9th June 2020, 11:26 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'll agree that a big part of the issue is that there aren't a lot of avenues for... I guess "mediation" is the closest word I can use... between citizens.

"If didn't call the police, then who would they call exactly?" is a valid question to put on the table in some circumstances (not the "Xing while black" ones obviously) even if we agree that calling the police was not warranted.

And yes a lot of Americas have that "Well I can and should do everything that isn't literally against the law" mentality to deal with.
For that matter, "It's only illegal if you get caught."
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Old 9th June 2020, 11:50 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
This is a thing I daydream about, bit I'll admit I don't have all the answers.

(respectful snip)

We need moderation in policing, and America does not do moderation very well at all.
This is similar to the tragedy of the commons. 95%-98% of the population actually care, but the 2%-5% that don't mess is up for everyone else.
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Old 9th June 2020, 10:21 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
[/hilite]

U.S. cops kill 1,000 people every year. On what basis could you claim that only one or two per month are unjustified? And that's what matters, not whether he is "innocent" of whatever the cops think he might have done.
https://news.northeastern.edu/2020/0...e-preventable/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/inves...340_story.html
Okay a lot to unpack here.

First, I didn't use "Innocent" as in "Innocent of what the police think they did" but rather "Innocent of being an active threat". Personally I don't like the idea of "Justified" and "Unjustified" because these quickly become subjective to the point where shootings of people who should not have been shot can be justified (such as a guy with a hose being shot on his own doorstep by hidden snipers because he turned a "gun-like object" towards the police's hidden position) to where fully reasonable shootings can be made to be unreasonable (If the police had not kicked in the door, the suspect wouldn't have felt the need to stab his ex-girlfriend 15 times, so there was no need to shoot him, they could have talked him down and both would still be alive!) If instead we use the rule of an active threat and treat it in a similar way to Self-Defense (i.e. would a reasonable person consider the actions being taken by the suspect to be activity threatening the life of the Officer or another person?) then things become a lot more objective as to what is a good and bad shooting.

So, the next part. Yes there are around 1,000 officer related deaths a year, but firstly, not all of those deaths are on the job deaths. I suggest going through DB's that have been gathering this data because you'll find that they pad out their numbers with every death either caused by a police officer or a death in police custody. This includes Cops that have murdered their wives in a domestic setting, and even off duty policewoman have have killed their would be rapists in self defense. It also includes people killed in police chases, jailhouse fires, and other accidental or incidental deaths. If we are really looking to see how many deaths are through the direct actions of the police doing their jobs, then these deaths need to be removed from "our just about 1,000."

Once we are left with the deaths where a police officer has taken a direct action on the job that resulted in the suspect dying, it is a case of going through those cases and eliminating the ones where the suspect was an active threat to the Officer or other person when they were shot. For instance, did the suspect point and/or fire a gun at the officer or another person? Were they attacking the officer or another person with a knife or other weapon? Did they try and run down the officer or another person with a vehicle? Were they attempting to drown or choke the officer or another person? Was the action that they were taking an immediate danger to the officer or another person's well being?

When we go through the databases that have been collected and kept, the answer to the vast majority (about 95%+ in the ones I have seen currently) is yes. Shootings of people that are not an active threat is extremely rare, and here I'm even making allowances for case of people shot for doing things getting such as reaching into a back pocket for ID. We can also compare the numbers in the DB's with how often these stories come up in the media. And that's a corroborating point, let's say that there were 50 killings by the police in a year of people who were not a threat at the time of their death. We'd be seeing articles on a death about once a week because such deaths are big news at the moment and have been for a number of years. We're not seeing that. This would further indicate that such numbers of these types of deaths are not in fact occurring.

Now having said that, even one death of a person that isn't posing an immediate threat to the officer or another's life or well-being is one too many. Cops need to be better trained in handling situations, especially when it comes to threat assessment and dealing with both disabled and mentally ill people. I would like to see the numbers of officer related deaths decline just as everyone else would. The difference is that I realize that when according to the FBI statistics there are around 10,0000 LEO's involved in aggravated assaults (assaults with an aggravating circumstance, often the use of a weapon), around 2,000 of which involve guns, that only 1,000 people (actually slightly less) means that Police are dealing with 90% of those assaults on them without resorting to killing their attacker.

That would seem to be a good start.

Now don't get me wrong here either, Police Departments in the US have a lot of issues that they need to clean up and fix, and the big one is their biases against PoC. They need to stop dividing the world into Police and Potential Criminals, especially when it comes to PoC. Studies have shown that the Police use force and deadly force on different races at around the same rates based on their contact rates with those races. The issue is that Police are more likely to have contact with Blacks, a lot of which is thoroughly unreasonable. If the number of negative contacts between police and PoC can be reduced, then the number of Officer related deaths would also decrease and so too would, hopefully, the bad shootings. And this would be a good thing all around.
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Old 10th June 2020, 07:31 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post

Once we are left with the deaths where a police officer has taken a direct action on the job that resulted in the suspect dying, it is a case of going through those cases and eliminating the ones where the suspect was an active threat to the Officer or other person when they were shot. For instance, did the suspect point and/or fire a gun at the officer or another person? Were they attacking the officer or another person with a knife or other weapon? Did they try and run down the officer or another person with a vehicle? Were they attempting to drown or choke the officer or another person? Was the action that they were taking an immediate danger to the officer or another person's well being?

When we go through the databases that have been collected and kept, the answer to the vast majority (about 95%+ in the ones I have seen currently) is yes.
You've got to take those numbers with a pretty big grain of salt. I mean, that grain of salt is one of the things causing the protests to be as enduring as they are.

Video evidence increasingly disproves police narratives

Essentially, a large and growing segment of the population no longer takes the word of the police when they say that the suspect was taking an action that presented an immediate risk of harm to the officers. At this point, that doubt is at least as much of a driver in the protests as is the racial issues that sparked the protests.
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Old 10th June 2020, 11:31 AM   #138
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I keep having random things pop into my mind relative to these issues.

Back in the 70s, the county “booking facility” was run by the police, and was a typical “lockup”. Lots of bars and steel doors and cops.
Somewhere in the social attitudes of the times, the county government decided to go with a “kinder, gentler” booking and detention facility. They spent a lot of money building a new, open-air facility, with carpets and nice chairs and potted plants. No bars to be seen, the “booking desk” was just a typical service counter.
The police department was replaced by employees of the department of welfare.
Telephones were freely available without strict controls.

All working on theories that said that treating people more humanely would result in fewer fights, altercations, and general “acting up” from prisoners.
Lasted about a year. The welfare employees got tired of fighting with drunk, drugged, or just psychopathic prisoners. People were injured and lawsuits filed. The entire facility was changed back into pretty much what was being done previously.... But with civilian employees backed up by police.
Hearts were in the right place, perhaps, but those hearts were not dealing with the exigencies of actual criminals. Most folks brought in for traffic warrants or “failure to appear” or whatever are no problem. They get booked, call their attorney or bondsman, and are out of there with a new court date.
But there are always chronically anti-social criminal types who are obnoxious, combative, and dangerous..... That’s just reality.

In my long career, I’ve arrested lots of people. Warrants, active crimes in progress, DUI suspects... Long list. In all that 50 years, I’ve only been involved in a few “resisting arrest” cases. All of those devolved into simple wrestling matches.... The suspect is not attacking the officer, just in panic mode trying “not to be arrested”.
I’ve never had a stand-up fight. Never shot anyone. Pepper-sprayed a few. Never hit anyone with a baton.
But that’s just luck of the draw. I’ve seen colleagues here locally shot down for “routine traffic stops”. Shot by armed robbers. Shot in “suicide by cop” situations. Run down by cars.
There are seriously bad people out there, and they must be dealt with.
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Old 10th June 2020, 11:36 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
I keep having random things pop into my mind relative to these issues.

Back in the 70s, the county “booking facility” was run by the police, and was a typical “lockup”. Lots of bars and steel doors and cops.
Somewhere in the social attitudes of the times, the county government decided to go with a “kinder, gentler” booking and detention facility. They spent a lot of money building a new, open-air facility, with carpets and nice chairs and potted plants. No bars to be seen, the “booking desk” was just a typical service counter.
The police department was replaced by employees of the department of welfare.
Telephones were freely available without strict controls.

All working on theories that said that treating people more humanely would result in fewer fights, altercations, and general “acting up” from prisoners.
Lasted about a year. The welfare employees got tired of fighting with drunk, drugged, or just psychopathic prisoners. People were injured and lawsuits filed. The entire facility was changed back into pretty much what was being done previously.... But with civilian employees backed up by police.
Hearts were in the right place, perhaps, but those hearts were not dealing with the exigencies of actual criminals. Most folks brought in for traffic warrants or “failure to appear” or whatever are no problem. They get booked, call their attorney or bondsman, and are out of there with a new court date.
But there are always chronically anti-social criminal types who are obnoxious, combative, and dangerous..... That’s just reality.

In my long career, I’ve arrested lots of people. Warrants, active crimes in progress, DUI suspects... Long list. In all that 50 years, I’ve only been involved in a few “resisting arrest” cases. All of those devolved into simple wrestling matches.... The suspect is not attacking the officer, just in panic mode trying “not to be arrested”.
I’ve never had a stand-up fight. Never shot anyone. Pepper-sprayed a few. Never hit anyone with a baton.
But that’s just luck of the draw. I’ve seen colleagues here locally shot down for “routine traffic stops”. Shot by armed robbers. Shot in “suicide by cop” situations. Run down by cars.
There are seriously bad people out there, and they must be dealt with.
What about the simple joys of police work like setting a dog on a suicidal teenager?
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Old 10th June 2020, 06:31 PM   #140
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Systemic racism isn't created and maintained from the bottom up. It's created and maintained from the top down.

Therefore, you need to fix the corruption in the system that allows the corruption of police.

Everybody has a boss they have to answer to, including the police. If you want to fix corruption at the bottom level, then you first need to fix the corruption at the top level. Fixing 'the boss' will naturally filter down the line to 'fix the employee'.

All this talk about "fixing the police" and/or "defunding the police" is not only ridiculously myopic, it's ridiculously naive.
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Old 10th June 2020, 07:24 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by AnonyMoose View Post
Systemic racism isn't created and maintained from the bottom up. It's created and maintained from the top down.

Therefore, you need to fix the corruption in the system that allows the corruption of police.

Everybody has a boss they have to answer to, including the police. If you want to fix corruption at the bottom level, then you first need to fix the corruption at the top level. Fixing 'the boss' will naturally filter down the line to 'fix the employee'.

All this talk about "fixing the police" and/or "defunding the police" is not only ridiculously myopic, it's ridiculously naive.
Medaria Arradondo - the Chief of Police in Minneapolis - is African-American.
He is well aware of the systemic racism in his own police organization because he took them to court alleging discrimination in promotions, pay, and discipline. (settled out of court with three others for $740,000).
He was also head of their Internal Affairs before becoming the chief in 2017.
Is he the reason racism still exists in that police force or is he just responsible for the bad cops that seem to flourish there?
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Old 10th June 2020, 07:26 PM   #142
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Quote:
Therefore, you need to fix the corruption in the system that allows the corruption of police.
The Stanford Prison Experiment showed us the very concept of police is the cause of the corruption.

We have to scrap the whole system, and replace it with something else.

I don't know what that would be, and I don't think anyone else does, either. Until we figure that out, we'll have to live with a system that allows these kinds of abuses. We can only try to revamp it so they occur less often.
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Old 10th June 2020, 07:31 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
The Stanford Prison Experiment showed us the very concept of police is the cause of the corruption.

We have to scrap the whole system, and replace it with something else.

I don't know what that would be, and I don't think anyone else does, either. Until we figure that out, we'll have to live with a system that allows these kinds of abuses. We can only try to revamp it so they occur less often.
There does seem to be some improvement with community policing where the police are more part of the community, and are on the beat rather than in their cars and separated from the public.

But yes, most people calling for the police to be scrapped have failed to come up with an alternative that would actually work better.
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Old 10th June 2020, 07:37 PM   #144
rockinkt
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
The Stanford Prison Experiment showed us the very concept of police is the cause of the corruption.

We have to scrap the whole system, and replace it with something else.

I don't know what that would be, and I don't think anyone else does, either. Until we figure that out, we'll have to live with a system that allows these kinds of abuses. We can only try to revamp it so they occur less often.
The Stanford Prison Experiment has been shown to be deeply flawed and the resulting conclusions to be without merit.

https://www.livescience.com/62832-st...nt-flawed.html

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Old 10th June 2020, 08:24 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
There does seem to be some improvement with community policing where the police are more part of the community, and are on the beat rather than in their cars and separated from the public.

But yes, most people calling for the police to be scrapped have failed to come up with an alternative that would actually work better.
Another poster has noted the majority of police work is already social work and is done "after the fact," in that the police are not often called to a crime in progress. So one solution would be to replace armed police as first responders with people who have a different uniform and better training handling social ills. George Floyd is a case in point: the "crime" had already been committed so there was no need for an armed police officer to be on there. It just so happened that George had not left the scene, in most cases like this the customer is likely long gone.

Where this idea gets dicey is determining when you need a social worker and when you need an armed response. The other question is should the social worker have a power of arrest if it's determined an offense has occurred and the suspect is available to be apprehended.
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Old 10th June 2020, 09:03 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
The Stanford Prison Experiment showed us the very concept of police is the cause of the corruption.
You do know that that study was bull ****, right? And I don't just mean it didn't have any controls on it and so it's useless as a matter of science, I mean that even the reporting about what happened was basically a lie.

https://gen.medium.com/the-lifespan-...e-d869212b1f62

If you're using that study to conclude anything other than what good marketing can do for bad "science", well, you haven't actually paid attention.
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Old 10th June 2020, 09:39 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Medaria Arradondo - the Chief of Police in Minneapolis - is African-American.
He is well aware of the systemic racism in his own police organization because he took them to court alleging discrimination in promotions, pay, and discipline. (settled out of court with three others for $740,000).
He was also head of their Internal Affairs before becoming the chief in 2017.
Is he the reason racism still exists in that police force or is he just responsible for the bad cops that seem to flourish there?
Have you looked into their police union, especially its head, Bob Kroll?

Quote:
Over his career, Kroll has been involved in three officer shootings.[5] By 2015, Kroll had accumulated 20 internal affairs complaints,[6] only three of which were disciplined,[5] including one that led to his demotion.[8] In 1994, Kroll received a five-day suspension for excessive use of force that was later overturned.[12] A 1995 lawsuit against Kroll in federal court alleged that he had used racial slurs while beating, choking and kicking a 15-year-old multi-racial boy.[13] Kroll oversaw a botched Emergency Response Unit drug raid in 1996 where an officer was shot by friendly fire.[7] During a no-knock raid on an elderly couple's residence[6] in September 2002, Kroll was among several officers accused of using excessive force.[12] A lawsuit regarding the incident was settled for $60,000.[7] In March 2003 Kroll was involuntarily demoted for ethical violations. He had his rank reinstated three months later.[12][7] A City of Minneapolis attorney recommended settling a lawsuit for $15,000 stemming from Kroll kicking and beating a suspect at an impound lot in February 2004.[7]
That's just the first paragraph - it goes on for seven more paragraphs of this sort of thing from the guy.

Then there are his politics:

Quote:
Kroll supports and endorses[1] President Donald Trump[29] including speaking at a Trump rally in Minneapolis[4] and selling "Cops for Trump" shirts.[30][31] Kroll appeared on Fox News' Fox & Friends to speak about violent crime and the Minneapolis City Council.[32] In a controversial letter to police federation members made public June 1, 2020, Kroll attacked "politicians on the left" and the "liberal media" and stated that in a phone meeting with Minnesota Senate Majority Leader Paul Gazelka, he had provided Gazelka with "a detailed plan of action including a range of 2000 to 3000 National Guard, their deployment allocations throughout our city and St. Paul," and that "the Senate was going to try and run the actions that the governor has displayed he is clearly incompetent to do."[33][34] The remark was perceived as political by at least the City Pages newsweekly as the Governor, Tim Walz, is both a Democrat and a 24-year veteran of the Minnesota National Guard, while Gazelka is Minnesota's highest-ranking elected Republican office holder.[33] (The governor is the state official who may "call the National Guard into action during local or statewide emergencies".)[35]

On June 1, 2020, Libor Jany of the Star Tribune, published a letter Kroll wrote to fellow union members, in which he called the Black Lives Matter a "terrorist group".[14][36]
Also, white supremacy:

Quote:
Kroll is a member of City Heat, a police motorcyle club[6] whose members have "openly displayed white supremacist symbols" according to the Anti-Defamation League.
Remember, this guy runs the police union. Those unions have a great deal of influence over how police departments are run, how disciplinary hearings are conduction. They spend a boatload of money on political lobbying.
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Old 10th June 2020, 10:10 PM   #148
rockinkt
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Have you looked into their police union, especially its head, Bob Kroll?



That's just the first paragraph - it goes on for seven more paragraphs of this sort of thing from the guy.

Then there are his politics:



Also, white supremacy:



Remember, this guy runs the police union. Those unions have a great deal of influence over how police departments are run, how disciplinary hearings are conduction. They spend a boatload of money on political lobbying.
All well and good - but your response has nothing to do with what I was referencing which was AnonyMoose' post.
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"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle

"I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt
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Old 10th June 2020, 10:11 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Another poster has noted the majority of police work is already social work and is done "after the fact," in that the police are not often called to a crime in progress. So one solution would be to replace armed police as first responders with people who have a different uniform and better training handling social ills. George Floyd is a case in point: the "crime" had already been committed so there was no need for an armed police officer to be on there. It just so happened that George had not left the scene, in most cases like this the customer is likely long gone.

Where this idea gets dicey is determining when you need a social worker and when you need an armed response. The other question is should the social worker have a power of arrest if it's determined an offense has occurred and the suspect is available to be apprehended.
The devil is always in the details.
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"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle

"I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt
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Old 11th June 2020, 02:04 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Another poster has noted the majority of police work is already social work and is done "after the fact," in that the police are not often called to a crime in progress.
Actually, if they're doing their job properly, the majority of their work should be preventative, not reactive.
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Old 11th June 2020, 05:33 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Y[...] Video evidence increasingly disproves police narratives[...]

Essentially, a large and growing segment of the population no longer takes the word of the police when they say that the suspect was taking an action that presented an immediate risk of harm to the officers. At this point, that doubt is at least as much of a driver in the protests as is the racial issues that sparked the protests.
I´d like things at some point to evolve into a system in which the police are forced to record everything they do, and if there is a police action of some kind that is disputed, and there is no video of it, it should be automatically regarded as evidence of foul play...
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Old 11th June 2020, 06:03 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Actually, if they're doing their job properly, the majority of their work should be preventative, not reactive.
The preventative aspect seems to be removing bad actors from the population before the bad actors can victimize more people.
How else could their work be "preventative"?
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Old 11th June 2020, 06:04 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
I´d like things at some point to evolve into a system in which the police are forced to record everything they do, and if there is a police action of some kind that is disputed, and there is no video of it, it should be automatically regarded as evidence of foul play...
I think they should definitely be recording their actions. Further, the recordings should be public record.
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Old 11th June 2020, 06:13 AM   #154
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I have an idea.

The basis for a Terry stop is reasonable suspicion. However, a study of new York stop and frisk found a crime only 30% of the time.

We should establish what percent represents a level of suspicion that is reasonable, and assess police department procedures based on aggregate reasonable suspicion.
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Old 11th June 2020, 06:23 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
The preventative aspect seems to be removing bad actors from the population before the bad actors can victimize more people.
How else could their work be "preventative"?
Seriously? It's the first of the Peelian principles, to prevent crime rather than simply chasing after criminals when it's already happened. There are many ways of going about it, including pro-active policing, community policing, predictive policing, and so on.
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Old 11th June 2020, 06:30 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Seriously? It's the first of the Peelian principles, to prevent crime rather than simply chasing after criminals when it's already happened. There are many ways of going about it, including pro-active policing, community policing, predictive policing, and so on.
Those activities, while laudable, are very out of favor right now.
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Old 11th June 2020, 06:39 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Those activities, while laudable, are very out of favor right now.
By whom?
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Old 11th June 2020, 06:40 AM   #158
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What do you do with a police culture where this happens:

Quote:
A woman is suing the city of San Antonio after a police officer pulled out her tampon in public
https://www.insider.com/woman-san-an...ucKTP8I8Cf8Ieg

Female cop performs warrantless body cavity search on a woman doing nothing suspicious and pulls out her bloody tampon to show 5 other male officers.

No discipline or criminal charges against the cop. Police maintain the position that this was a perfectly acceptable example of police conduct.

The cops will strip search you in public and sexually violate you for any reason, and the system says this is fine.
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Old 11th June 2020, 06:48 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
By whom?
The police in the US.

Here is an article by a former cop explaining why all cops are bastards including him.

https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confess...p-bb14d17bc759
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Old 11th June 2020, 06:57 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The police in the US.

Here is an article by a former cop explaining why all cops are bastards including him.

https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confess...p-bb14d17bc759
Well, that's the sort of thing that sparked this thread; the need for reform seems pretty well established, I thought we were talking about what should happen instead.
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