ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 12th June 2020, 06:44 AM   #201
Distracted1
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 4,388
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
One MAJOR fix would be to not let the Police have a cent from the fines and confiscations they collect.
We don't pay fireman from the yard sale of slight-burned furniture or the insurance money.
Budgets need to be completely decoupled from the money the department brings in.


There can't ever be any profit motive in policing.
The adage is that the first thing the firemen save from a burning business is the cash register.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2020, 04:02 PM   #202
rockinkt
Graduate Poster
 
rockinkt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,688
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
What do you do with a police culture where this happens:



https://www.insider.com/woman-san-an...ucKTP8I8Cf8Ieg

Female cop performs warrantless body cavity search on a woman doing nothing suspicious and pulls out her bloody tampon to show 5 other male officers.

No discipline or criminal charges against the cop. Police maintain the position that this was a perfectly acceptable example of police conduct.

The cops will strip search you in public and sexually violate you for any reason, and the system says this is fine.
From the link:
Internal-affairs investigators determined that Wilson's actions didn't violate the department's policies, according to the lawsuit. Following the body-cavity search, her performance was described as "exceeds expectations."


Horrible does not even begin to describe this case.
__________________
"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle

"I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt
rockinkt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2020, 04:40 PM   #203
rockinkt
Graduate Poster
 
rockinkt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,688
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Removing bad actors woulid be one part of it.
That is what cops are trying to do now. Bad actors are what police call criminals. Fortunately - most police are not breaking the law and arresting and jailing people who have not committed a crime.
I would not want to live a society where the law allows youto be "removed" just because somebody thinks you might commit a crime. Would you?


Quote:
It might also involve enhanced patrols that make cops more visible to discourage crime,
More patrols just make little old ladies happy. At the best more patrols just displace crime.



Quote:
improved community relations so citizens are more likely to give information,
Pleasant thought but never going to work in high crime areas where children are taught to hate police and that being a "rat" is the most heinous crime of all.
Also, it doesn't matter how much PR you do - you arrest somebody's husband, father, cousin, or friend for criminal acts and they are going to end up hating police.
Furthermore, the idea of giving information to the police is a taboo that is deeply ingrained in a many people's minds.
We had a case in a very wealthy neighborhood where a middle aged man was killed by a group of rowdy drunk and drugged out high schoolers when he went to a neighbor's house to find his kid. Not one of the dozens of very wealthy and privileged teens was willing to cooperate with police. Even the two sons of a police officer stuck to the "code" that has been instilled in these kids from movies, TV shows, and music. Being a "rat" is more heinous than murder in many people's eyes and that has nothing to do with how they view police.

Quote:
working with the city to do simple stuff like improving street lighting and expanding social services, etc. "Preventative" could mean solving problems before they result in crimes.
Street lighting is just as ineffective as more patrols.
The effectiveness of most social programs is a matter of debate.
Social programs in Vancouver's Downtown Eastside area have proven to pretty well worthless. On average, over a million dollars a day is spent on social programs in that area alone to no discernable positive effect.
Got a social program that will work that hasn't been done before in this area?

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/cana...de-shocked-me/
__________________
"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle

"I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt

Last edited by rockinkt; 12th June 2020 at 04:44 PM. Reason: typos and fix quotes
rockinkt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2020, 05:41 PM   #204
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,747
Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
From the link:
Internal-affairs investigators determined that Wilson's actions didn't violate the department's policies, according to the lawsuit. Following the body-cavity search, her performance was described as "exceeds expectations."


Horrible does not even begin to describe this case.
Wanna know what the game is?

They're trying to provoke a reaction. This has happened for decades. They likely laughed and called her a whore/bitch/whatever as well. Object? You're "resisting arrest", "assaulting an officer", and/or "interfering with police duties", depending on what you do, and whether or not you're the victim, or a good samaritan. And ding! they're now credited with catching one or more "violent criminals". More proof that they're "cleaning up the streets" to "protect your children".

Want another example? Here's a video about NYPD's "Stop and Frisk" program.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Remember what I said about Eric Garner, every time you hear a story like this - he wasn't strangled for selling loosies, because he wasn't even doing that, and it's not an arrestable offense to begin with. He was strangled because a commanding officer saw him there, ordered two lower-ranking cops to get him out of there, and he said "Just leave me alone!" because it had happened to him so often. And that was likely one of the nicer ones, until one cop decided to choke him out.

It's not a few bad apples, it's that the barrel is rotting.

Now, about that supposedly counterfeit $20...before I ask if they can show it was actually made by him, um, where is it?
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2020, 09:18 PM   #205
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 25,523
L.A. Schools Police to return some surplus military equipment received through federal program

Quote:
The Los Angeles School Police Department, which serves the nation’s second-largest school system, will return three grenade launchers but intends to keep 61 rifles and a Mine Resistant Ambush Protected armored vehicle it received through the program.

L.A. Unified is one of at least 22 school systems in eight states that participate in the program, which provides law enforcement agencies with the extra military-grade gear at no charge.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2020, 03:29 AM   #206
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6,577
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
School shooters must have grown more dangerous by the day if they now need grenade launchers and armored vehicles to take them out.
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2020, 03:32 AM   #207
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 92,503
Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
That is what cops are trying to do now. Bad actors are what police call criminals. Fortunately - most police are not breaking the law and arresting and jailing people who have not committed a crime.
I would not want to live a society where the law allows youto be "removed" just because somebody thinks you might commit a crime. Would you?




More patrols just make little old ladies happy. At the best more patrols just displace crime.





Pleasant thought but never going to work in high crime areas where children are taught to hate police and that being a "rat" is the most heinous crime of all.
Also, it doesn't matter how much PR you do - you arrest somebody's husband, father, cousin, or friend for criminal acts and they are going to end up hating police.
Furthermore, the idea of giving information to the police is a taboo that is deeply ingrained in a many people's minds.
We had a case in a very wealthy neighborhood where a middle aged man was killed by a group of rowdy drunk and drugged out high schoolers when he went to a neighbor's house to find his kid. Not one of the dozens of very wealthy and privileged teens was willing to cooperate with police. Even the two sons of a police officer stuck to the "code" that has been instilled in these kids from movies, TV shows, and music. Being a "rat" is more heinous than murder in many people's eyes and that has nothing to do with how they view police.



Street lighting is just as ineffective as more patrols.
The effectiveness of most social programs is a matter of debate.
Social programs in Vancouver's Downtown Eastside area have proven to pretty well worthless. On average, over a million dollars a day is spent on social programs in that area alone to no discernable positive effect.
Got a social program that will work that hasn't been done before in this area?

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/cana...de-shocked-me/
How much of that million was given to the residents?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2020, 08:30 AM   #208
rockinkt
Graduate Poster
 
rockinkt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,688
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
How much of that million was given to the residents?
They already go through millions of dollars a day in illegal drugs. Giving a drug addict or alcoholic more money to feed their addictions is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.
__________________
"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle

"I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt

Last edited by rockinkt; 13th June 2020 at 08:34 AM. Reason: changed wording
rockinkt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2020, 09:16 AM   #209
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 10,879
Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
They already go through millions of dollars a day in illegal drugs. Giving a drug addict or alcoholic more money to feed their addictions is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.
Aw, c'mon, you know nobody's talking about handing cash to addicts. But the proposals are to spend money to start solving social problems before the cops have to be called. That means housing the homeless so the cops won't have to roust them off the sidewalks, expanding drug and alcohol rehab programs so anybody who needs help gets it, providing social workers and counselors to help families before cops have to answer domestic violence calls, creating youth centers to keep kids off the corners, etc., etc. Why is police spending untouchable when money for social services and education gets cut?

Last edited by Bob001; 13th June 2020 at 09:49 AM.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2020, 09:38 AM   #210
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 10,879
Other perspectives on the notion that "our boys in blue" are the wall saving us from chaos.
Quote:
Now two weeks of nationwide protests have led some to call for defunding the police, while others argue that doing so would make us less safe.

The first thing to point out is that police officers don’t do what you think they do. They spend most of their time responding to noise complaints, issuing parking and traffic citations, and dealing with other noncriminal issues. We’ve been taught to think they “catch the bad guys; they chase the bank robbers; they find the serial killers,” said Alex Vitale, the coordinator of the Policing and Social Justice Project at Brooklyn College, in an interview with Jacobin. But this is “a big myth,” he said. “The vast majority of police officers make one felony arrest a year. If they make two, they’re cop of the month.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/o...nd-police.html

Quote:
Part of the problem is that for decades now, communities have been told that the only resource they can have to address their community problems is more policing and more incarceration. Communities that have very real crime and public safety problems are desperate for help, and if the only thing on offer is policing, they’ll ask for policing.

Our job is to lay out what the alternatives would look like and give people a sense that they have the power to ask for what they really want. Many people in these communities know that they would be better served by a new youth center with mentoring services or anti-violence programs, but they’re told that they can never have those things.
https://jacobinmag.com/2020/06/alex-...efund-protests
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2020, 09:46 AM   #211
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 92,503
Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
They already go through millions of dollars a day in illegal drugs. Giving a drug addict or alcoholic more money to feed their addictions is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.
All the residents are addicts and alcoholics?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2020, 10:07 AM   #212
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6,577
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Other perspectives on the notion that "our boys in blue" are the wall saving us from chaos.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/o...nd-police.html
Quote:
People like me who want to abolish prisons and police, however, have a vision of a different society, built on cooperation instead of individualism, on mutual aid instead of self-preservation. What would the country look like if it had billions of extra dollars to spend on housing, food and education for all? This change in society wouldn’t happen immediately, but the protests show that many people are ready to embrace a different vision of safety and justice.
A country where the strong take and do what, and who, they want, when they want sure sounds like very nice place to live.
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2020, 10:37 AM   #213
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 22,347
Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Police are unfortunately a neccessity. I don't say that to disparage police collectively but it would be great if we didn't need them.

What is not needed is a police and justice system that crushes people gratuitously. Other police systems are able function without doing that.
Well as an example, when 85% of police in New York went on strike in 1971 the crime rates dropped for the week. Though illegally parked cars surges, perhaps a sign of prior police priorities.
Then, as now, police were blaming "the liberal establishment" and the "mass media" and defensively putting police misconduct on "the corruption of a small number of policemen" and making claims of a "conspiracy". There was little self-reflection then, as now.

Likewise when "proactive policing" () was suspended for seven weeks in late '14/early '15, after Officer Daniel Pantaleo choked Eric Garner to death, reported serious crime rates (felony assaults, burglaries, et cetera) dropped by 4-6%.
There's an excellent piece in Nature - Human Behaviour covering the scientific analysis and study of this data.

Then there's the example of Trenton, who did abolish it's (widely hated, massively corrupt and ineffective)) police department and replace it with a county based structure with more social programme funding. Real change that 'rebooted' law enforcement, despite the vehement opposition of police unions.It also reduced excessive force complaints, homicides and serious crimes

Perhaps the current large force of militarised police is a waste of money? Funding that could be better used in social services and have a greater benefit to society.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2020, 10:38 AM   #214
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 22,347
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
US has a very strong tradition of local control of the local police force, and I don't see that changing.
But I could see semthing like nationwide training standards,etc.
Yes the small forces are part of the problem.But then so are the big ones. National certification as a mandatory measure to be hired is one possibility (why not? Nurses are certified).
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2020, 10:40 AM   #215
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 22,347
Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng View Post


This is how USA differs from all other "western" countries. It's extremely rare for a civilian to pull a gun on a policeman in UK or elsewhere in Europe, or other comparable countries. The situation in USA breeds distrust between law enforcement and the citizenry.
Yet such armed confrontations, initiated by non-police, are rare.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2020, 10:52 AM   #216
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 22,347
Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
Although much has been made of the SCOTUS decision regarding no obligation to protect citizens, I have never met an officer in my 50-year career who did not take the “to serve and protect” thing quite seriously<>
Really? I have and I don't even live in the USA, just an occasional visitor these days.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2020, 10:59 AM   #217
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 22,347
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
How many innocents should be sacrificed for this though? I mean sure the suicide rate is far worse as cops are also their own worst enemies as well.
Law enforcement suicide rate (26.4) is slightly lower than US average (27.4) though higher for women; it's lower than agriculture, mining, construction, transportation/trucking, installation/repair and other fields.

Perhaps more mental health spending and services?
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2020, 11:00 AM   #218
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 22,347
One of the biggest problems, IMO, is the disconnected culture. As Sandford put it:

Quote:
But as cops began to develop FBI-like attitudes, and to build FBI-like fortresses, as they sealed themselves away in patrol cars, as they fended off contact with the public, they began to resemble a paramilitary force, rather than peace officers.
When Lucas was a kid, cops were part of his neighborhood, with jobs just like the mailman and the teacher. By the time Lucas had joined the Minneapolis cops, that old workaday attitude was disappearing—cops were creating their own bars, holding their own cop parties, picking up privileges that weren’t available to outsiders.
That all began, Lucas thought, with the spreading influence of the feds, and he didn’t like it. It was bad for the country and bad for cops, he thought.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2020, 12:01 PM   #219
Blue Mountain
Resident Skeptical Hobbit
 
Blue Mountain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg
Posts: 6,174
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
(respectful snip)
Likewise when "proactive policing" () was suspended for seven weeks in late '14/early '15, after Officer Daniel Pantaleo choked Eric Garner to death, reported serious crime rates (felony assaults, burglaries, et cetera) dropped by 4-6%.
There's an excellent piece in Nature - Human Behaviour covering the scientific analysis and study of this data.
First, I agree with most of what you've posted. However I'd like to pick this one nit. If police are unavailable to assist, then people likely aren't going to bother calling them even for more serious stuff. To go reductio ad absurdum on this, one could drop reported crime rates to zero by disbanding the police altogether and providing the public with no way of reporting crime.
__________________
The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French)
Canadian or living in Canada? PM me if you want an entry on the list of Canadians on the forum.
Blue Mountain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2020, 12:04 PM   #220
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,658
End the adversarial system and have an inquisitorial system, where the police are purely evidence gatherers, where the emphasis is on establishing what happened, not guilt.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2020, 01:06 PM   #221
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,747
Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
First, I agree with most of what you've posted. However I'd like to pick this one nit. If police are unavailable to assist, then people likely aren't going to bother calling them even for more serious stuff. To go reductio ad absurdum on this, one could drop reported crime rates to zero by disbanding the police altogether and providing the public with no way of reporting crime.
Problem is, they stated outright that they *were* available for serious crimes - they just weren't driving around and harassing random black and brown people anymore. If anything, they should have been more available. My suspicion is that some types of crime fell hard, because the victims of that constant harassment simply let their guards down. The folks from NYC I know all said that they had never felt so safe and at ease before - simply because they weren't tensing and having their heart rate skyrocket up every time a cop car came into their sight.

But that's just a guess.

I'll note, though, that this was after some human shot his ex-girlfriend in Maryland and then travelled to NYC and killed two cops in Bed-Sty. His inspiration? A video of the "Trayvon Martin Organizing committee", a small pack of young white idiots that Martin's family openly detest, marching in NYC and chanting that they wanted "dead cops". And likely many drugs.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2020, 01:22 PM   #222
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 22,347
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Or with a 12 year old playing in the park with a toy gun. You have to shoot first.

Or how about a report of a black man with a gun in Colorado where open carry and such is nice and legal. So you pull guns on him and his 3 kids because why not, blacks should know that the second amendment does not apply to them after all. He was of course unarmed.
That toddler totally deserved a flash-bang in her playpen. The 92-year old needed to be shot thirty times, and have drugs planted to justify her murder.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2020, 02:20 PM   #223
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6,577
Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
First, I agree with most of what you've posted. However I'd like to pick this one nit. If police are unavailable to assist, then people likely aren't going to bother calling them even for more serious stuff. To go reductio ad absurdum on this, one could drop reported crime rates to zero by disbanding the police altogether and providing the public with no way of reporting crime.
I'd say the public's trust in law enforcement is probably the biggest factor in play here. One of the major factors, if not the most important one, that has an effect on people reporting crimes is whether they believe it will accomplish something.

If peoples trust in the police fall because of corruption, misconduct, incompetence, real or perceived discrimination then people are less likely to call the police.

This is why it's imperative that any statistics on reported crimes is compared to victimization surveys where people are asked whether they or someone they knew were victims of any crimes, if they called the police or not and such questions.
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann

Last edited by Arcade22; 13th June 2020 at 02:25 PM.
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2020, 02:22 PM   #224
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 81,729
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
The adage is that the first thing the firemen save from a burning business is the cash register.
There is no such adage.
__________________
Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2020, 03:55 PM   #225
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 22,347
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I know this is a pages late reply but this is so not comparable. I don't care how big the population is in Victoria, nothing in your province compares to states in the US.

Statewide standards, that's fine. But combining the police departments is unrealistic.
Why?
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2020, 03:58 PM   #226
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 22,347
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Remind me what the winning side was called? Was it "The Union"? The US has always meant to be a union of states: in over two hundred years we haven't dissolved or merged any of them in favor of a single entity, or even fewer ones than the current number.
John Marshall appreciate your support.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2020, 04:00 PM   #227
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 22,347
Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Portland, Oregon agrees with you.
The US city of Portland, Oregon, is dumping 38m gallons (143m litres) of water from its reservoir after a teenager was caught urinating into the water supply.
Portland emptied 7.5 million gallons of water from the same reservoir in 2011 after a man urinated into it.
On Wednesday, Mr Shaff said while animal waste often found its way into the reservoir without any public health risk, there was "at least a perceived difference from my perspective" on human waste.
"I could be wrong on that, but the reality is our customers don't anticipate drinking water that's been contaminated by some yahoo who decided to pee into a reservoir," he said.
(No babies were injured in either of these stories)
In the old days in South Africa he could have been hanged for that. Five years minimum.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2020, 04:02 PM   #228
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 22,347
Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
They already go through millions of dollars a day in illegal drugs. Giving a drug addict or alcoholic more money to feed their addictions is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2020, 04:04 PM   #229
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 22,347
Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
First, I agree with most of what you've posted. However I'd like to pick this one nit. If police are unavailable to assist, then people likely aren't going to bother calling them even for more serious stuff. To go reductio ad absurdum on this, one could drop reported crime rates to zero by disbanding the police altogether and providing the public with no way of reporting crime.
During the "work to rule" police were still available to take reports as usual. I refer you to the Nature article for more details, though there is plenty of other coverage of the study.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2020, 04:10 PM   #230
SuburbanTurkey
Illuminator
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 4,920
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I'd say the public's trust in law enforcement is probably the biggest factor in play here. One of the major factors, if not the most important one, that has an effect on people reporting crimes is whether they believe it will accomplish something.

If peoples trust in the police fall because of corruption, misconduct, incompetence, real or perceived discrimination then people are less likely to call the police.

This is why it's imperative that any statistics on reported crimes is compared to victimization surveys where people are asked whether they or someone they knew were victims of any crimes, if they called the police or not and such questions.
I'll be curious if there's a lasting change in perception about the police in the larger public. You're quite right that the public's trust of law enforcement is a very important element in their power. A significant and long lasting decline in that trust could have serious consequences.

If enough people lose faith in the police, it could mean jurors that are more skeptical of police testimony, voters that are more reluctant to approve additional funding, and a community that is less enabling of a large police presence.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2020, 04:53 PM   #231
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6,577
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
If enough people lose faith in the police, it could mean jurors that are more skeptical of police testimony, voters that are more reluctant to approve additional funding, and a community that is less enabling of a large police presence.
In fact if the situation deteriorates sufficiently it's not uncommon for criminal groups to de facto usurp the functions of law enforcement and establish a parallel society that operates according to its own rules. It's not like criminals are going anywhere just because people lose faith in the cops to protect them. If anything it will only embolden and empower them, which is why public support is crucial for law enforcement and policing to be effective.
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann

Last edited by Arcade22; 13th June 2020 at 04:55 PM.
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2020, 04:57 PM   #232
Blue Mountain
Resident Skeptical Hobbit
 
Blue Mountain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg
Posts: 6,174
Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
First, I agree with most of what you've posted. However I'd like to pick this one nit. If police are unavailable to assist, then people likely aren't going to bother calling them even for more serious stuff. To go reductio ad absurdum on this, one could drop reported crime rates to zero by disbanding the police altogether and providing the public with no way of reporting crime.
Hey everyone, thanks for your additional perspectives on this!

Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Problem is, they stated outright that they *were* available for serious crimes - they just weren't driving around and harassing random black and brown people anymore. If anything, they should have been more available. My suspicion is that some types of crime fell hard, because the victims of that constant harassment simply let their guards down. The folks from NYC I know all said that they had never felt so safe and at ease before - simply because they weren't tensing and having their heart rate skyrocket up every time a cop car came into their sight.
Good to know, which I completely missed when I made my comment.


Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
This is why it's imperative that any statistics on reported crimes is compared to victimization surveys where people are asked whether they or someone they knew were victims of any crimes, if they called the police or not and such questions.
Agreed. There's more than one way to collect stats on crime. Relying on the police to provide them can be problematic, sort of like calling up a car dealership to ask if it would be a good idea to replace my existing vehicle.


Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
During the "work to rule" police were still available to take reports as usual. I refer you to the Nature article for more details, though there is plenty of other coverage of the study.
Thanks for mentioning the Nature article. It took a bit of work to locate it; news organizations are notoriously bad for reporting on studies without actually linking to them!
Evidence that curtailing proactive policing can reduce major crime [nature.com]
__________________
The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French)
Canadian or living in Canada? PM me if you want an entry on the list of Canadians on the forum.
Blue Mountain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2020, 04:57 PM   #233
Distracted1
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 4,388
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
In fact if the situation deteriorates sufficiently it's not uncommon for criminal groups to de facto usurp the functions of law enforcement and establish a parallel society that operates according to its own rules. It's not like criminals are going anywhere just because people lose faith in the cops to protect them. If anything it will only embolden and empower them, which is why public support is crucial for law enforcement and policing to be effective.
Quite right.
After, of course, everyone with the option of leaving has done so.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th June 2020, 03:30 PM   #234
rockinkt
Graduate Poster
 
rockinkt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,688
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Aw, c'mon, you know nobody's talking about handing cash to addicts. But the proposals are to spend money to start solving social problems before the cops have to be called. That means housing the homeless so the cops won't have to roust them off the sidewalks, expanding drug and alcohol rehab programs so anybody who needs help gets it, providing social workers and counselors to help families before cops have to answer domestic violence calls, creating youth centers to keep kids off the corners, etc., etc. Why is police spending untouchable when money for social services and education gets cut?
Are you reading the posts to get a sense of context - or are you just cherry picking things to try and score points?
My post was in response to Darat's post which was a response to my original post.
I suggest you read all three posts and then post something that is relevant to what was being discussed in those three posts.
__________________
"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle

"I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt
rockinkt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th June 2020, 03:34 PM   #235
rockinkt
Graduate Poster
 
rockinkt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,688
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Can you be more specific? I am not aware of any study that shows giving money to addicts is useful as a treatment strategy.
__________________
"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle

"I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt
rockinkt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th June 2020, 05:27 AM   #236
SuburbanTurkey
Illuminator
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 4,920
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
In fact if the situation deteriorates sufficiently it's not uncommon for criminal groups to de facto usurp the functions of law enforcement and establish a parallel society that operates according to its own rules. It's not like criminals are going anywhere just because people lose faith in the cops to protect them. If anything it will only embolden and empower them, which is why public support is crucial for law enforcement and policing to be effective.
A lot of the frustration from these working class, minority neighborhoods is that the cops aren't actually doing much real cop work. Major crime clearance rates are low. Cops might hassle you on the street, but good luck getting them to show up in a timely matter for a robbery or assault. Calls for more real policing just invites further street harassment.

Policing for these communities often means petty skullduggery by the cops on the street engaging in meaningless traffic stops tragedy and other such tedious and dangerous interventions while real criminals run largely unchecked.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 15th June 2020 at 05:31 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th June 2020, 06:05 AM   #237
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6,577
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
A lot of the frustration from these working class, minority neighborhoods is that the cops aren't actually doing much real cop work. Major crime clearance rates are low.
Of course the fact that people have no faith in the police and don't feel that it's important to help them solve crimes has nothing to do with it? We have this problem in parts of Sweden too so don't think that i don't know how this works.

In the more serious cases when someone gets shot or stabbed, and perhaps dying, as a part of a gang conflict in a public or semi-public area with bystanders present but no one wants to willingly talk with the police and they would certainly refuse to testify in court because of a real or perceived fear that they or their family would face reprisals. It's not uncommon for the perpetrators to be killed themselves in revenge rather than facing criminal charges due to the low clearance rate of murders.
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann

Last edited by Arcade22; 15th June 2020 at 06:20 AM.
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th June 2020, 06:10 AM   #238
SuburbanTurkey
Illuminator
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 4,920
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Of course the fact that people have no faith in the police and don't feel that it's important to help them solve crimes has nothing to do with it.
Yes, the police having very little credibility in the communities they serve makes their job harder. They should work on not being seen as an occupying army of thugs.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th June 2020, 06:17 AM   #239
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 30,941
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Of course the fact that people have no faith in the police and don't feel that it's important to help them solve crimes has nothing to do with it.
Given, for example, the recent case where a black store owner reported a robbery in progress and the police arrested him and let the white robber escape, it may be that a lot of people feel that helping the police to solve crimes will endanger them far more severely than just letting the crimes happen.

Dave
__________________
Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel.

- Myriad
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th June 2020, 06:38 AM   #240
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6,577
There's a very dangerous vicious circle in which real or perceived discrimination and mistreatment at the hands of law enforcement leads to a lack of trust in them and public authorities in general. People who break the law become less likely to be reported to the police, and potential witnesses are less willing to assist in investigating crimes, which leads to more crime and increasing loss of faith in law enforcement.

Police are forced to spend more time responding to and investing crimes occurring in these areas, which makes it more likely that people will be victims of discrimination or other kinds of mistreatment at the hands of police. And then the cycle repeats.

The reason why this only occurs in certain areas is of not just because these areas already have higher than average crime rates because of socioeconomic factors, but also because of ethnic, religious, linguistic or racial segregation that tends to separate one community from another. Even without a lack of trust there's typically a severe deficit in candidates that meet criteria for becoming police officers in said communities, which means that the police tend to be viewed as an "outside force" that only shows up when there's trouble and don't really help. Of course the criminals, their family and relatives often maintain that they are always innocent and that they just facing unjust persecution. Given how important family relations is in these communities this only helps blacken the police's reputation even further.
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann

Last edited by Arcade22; 15th June 2020 at 06:43 AM.
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:15 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.